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Posted: 6/3/2001 4:15:21 AM EDT
I hear and read opinions of some police officers saying that law-abiding citizens should have the right to carry a firearm to protect themselves and it would make their jobs a lot easier on their jobs to know that a citizen could be able to defend themselves if the police couldn't get there on time. Other officers say that it would be a burden to their jobs, because they would have to worry about if a person with a CCW is a law-abiding citizen or a potential criminal. To those police officers who say it would be a burden to your jobs. My life and any life of a good law-abiding citizen and the right to self-defense is worth more and lot more important than how hard your job is.
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 4:23:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 4:54:45 AM EDT
Anything that tempers a criminal's aggressiveness is OK with me. I have NEVER had a problem with any CCW carrier, despite many contacts. Makes my life easier in the street.
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 5:11:53 AM EDT
I hope nobody takes this the wrong way, especially the good LEOs that have my respect, but I could care less whether CCW helps or hinders LEOs. IMO it (CCW) is an integral part of the RKBA, and a right isn't conditional.
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 5:53:37 AM EDT
There are a lot of people in law enforcement that feel "burdened by the Constitution and the Rule of Law" at the Federal, State and Local levels. I would suggest they find a new career.
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 5:56:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By InTheBlack: I hear and read opinions of some police officers saying that law-abiding citizens should have the right to carry a firearm to protect themselves and it would make their jobs a lot easier on their jobs to know that a citizen could be able to defend themselves if the police couldn't get there on time. Other officers say that it would be a burden to their jobs, because they would have to worry about if a person with a CCW is a law-abiding citizen or a potential criminal. To those police officers who say it would be a burden to your jobs. My life and any life of a good law-abiding citizen and the right to self-defense is worth more and lot more important than how hard your job is.
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If its a right why do you need a permit? I will never as the gov. for a permit to carry and will continue to carry under the 2nd.
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 6:15:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 6:29:24 AM EDT
Going on statistics alone, the likelyhood of a CCW holder commiting a crime with a gun is nearly zero. That is based on factual record and not speculation. In my mind, it is a bigger crime not to nationalize it. The LEO's I know in Pa. are all 100% pro-CCW. Pennsylvania has had shall issue laws since the 1980's - way before the issue became fashionable. The thing that really gets me is that most of the states that have CCW are now the states where you are least likely to need to carry. Kinda like a reverse Catch 22. Anybody that cannot see the direct correlation between citizen carry and lower crime rates and officer safety is obviously looking through political eyes.
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 6:41:21 AM EDT
I would think that since crime is down nearly double the national average, or more, in those states that issue CCW's that the fact that there is less crime to deal with would make their jobs easier. I am not a LEO (obviously) and I don't understand all that the job entails, but the fact that some one would take the time to get a permit lawfully should say something about the person. Unless some states issue permits to criminals I don't see why CCW holders would be consider a threat or hazard.
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 7:16:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 7:23:45 AM EDT
I don't think Concealed Carry Permits help or hurt officers. It definetly helps the citizen carrying the weapon. He's now able to defend himself until or even after the law arrives. Someone above said the read some officers think it will mean that you may have a potential criminal on hand. As an officer, I'll tell you that's B.S. You have to pass all kind of background checks to get a concealed carry permit. If a guy's record is clean enough to get a permit and he goes through all the trouble to get one, then he's got to be a law abiding citizen.
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 7:40:33 AM EDT
because they would have to worry about if a person with a CCW is a law-abiding citizen or a potential criminal.
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If being armed makes a person a "potential criminal," then every policeman, sheriff, state trooper and federal agent is a potential criminal. Eddie
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 7:40:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 7:55:07 AM EDT
LS1Eddie, I thought Federal agents were considered potential criminals.
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 8:17:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/3/2001 8:16:19 AM EDT by InTheBlack]
Originally Posted By ar10er: If its a right why do you need a permit?
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I never mentioned having a permit. I only referred to conclealed carry weapons and right to carry.
I will never as the gov. for a permit to carry and will continue to carry under the 2nd.
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I don't understand this statement. "I will never AS THE GOV. for a permit...". Can you clarify this?
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 9:27:55 AM EDT
I've never felt that joe citizen with a CCW was a 'burden' to my job. Those officers who feel that normal folks shouldn't be able to carry because then they would have to worry whether those people were law-abiding or potential criminals should hang up their badges, because they've forgotten what their job is all about. It goes back to the state of mind that NOBODY can be trusted to carry a gun, because given the right circumstances ANYONE could become a criminal. We can't give you a CCW because you might have a bad day, snap and shoot up a schoolyard. Come on. I've gotten 'counseled' before by supervisors because when crime victims ask me what they can do to prevent it happening again, I tell them get their CCW, get a good reliable handgun and LEARN HOW TO USE IT.
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 9:38:41 AM EDT
Sparky we need more officers like you. My brother moved to Colorado about two months ago. He has a CCW in AZ but not in CO, so he was carrying his gun (Glock 19) on his hip in the open. He went into a taco shop to eat and was in line to buy a taco when an officer noticed the gun and ordered him to the ground. My brother complied with everything the officer said. He took the gun and unloaded it. About six officers showed up total for the event. It was about an hour into it when a Sergeant had to inform his officers that my brother hadn't done anything illegal. After that they let him go, but confiscated his gun and ammo. He later got the gun back, by filling out some paperwork (registration?) but they kept the ammo, saying that he didn't need that kind of ammo (Federal Hydro shock hallow points) and that if he wanted it back he would have to write the sheriff a letter and ask for it and have a good reason. Then they told him that he probably wouldn't get it back anyway. So it's good to hear that there are officers like you out there, because it seems that there are 100 'anti' officers for every 'pro' officer.
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 9:55:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/3/2001 9:54:24 AM EDT by MOD]
Was the officer that thought CCW is a burden GLOCKCOP by chance? Those officers that think this way should find a new line of work. Police have no legal duty to protect anyone and the only one you can count on is yourself. If they can't accept that then fu@k them.
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 10:13:56 AM EDT
Hey everyone first post here, thank-you, thank-you. I personally have seen the hatred that that LEO's have towards civilans w/ CCW's. A few months back during Mardi Gras here in Seattle, my wife and 21 month old son and I were driving home from the childrens musuem in downtown Seattle. Well because we were within 2 miles of Pioneer Square(ground zero)@ 8:45pm and in a Toyota Camry w/ heavily tinted windows we got pulled over. When I told the officers as I handed him my CCW along my DL, INS and REG. I was wearing a concealed weapon, he instructed me to get out of the car and lay in the street. He also called back up to search our car(I think they found a dirty diaper), all of this while my baby is watching his father get yelled at for owning a firearm. I have never been so insulted and degraded as I was on that night.
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 10:24:35 AM EDT
To [b]BryanZ1[/b]- Boy, talk about overreaction by the Seattle PD! Is that common, everyday practice of the PD, to get hysterical if some citizen is carrying a legally concealed handgun? If so, the PD needs to get sued into the next world, either by you or someone who's had a similar experience. Possibly that'll slow them down a bit. Eric The Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 10:30:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BryanZ1: Hey everyone first post here, thank-you, thank-you. I personally have seen the hatred that that LEO's have towards civilans w/ CCW's. A few months back during Mardi Gras here in Seattle, my wife and 21 month old son and I were driving home from the childrens musuem in downtown Seattle. Well because we were within 2 miles of Pioneer Square(ground zero)@ 8:45pm and in a Toyota Camry w/ heavily tinted windows we got pulled over. When I told the officers as I handed him my CCW along my DL, INS and REG. I was wearing a concealed weapon, he instructed me to get out of the car and lay in the street. He also called back up to search our car(I think they found a dirty diaper), all of this while my baby is watching his father get yelled at for owning a firearm. I have never been so insulted and degraded as I was on that night.
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Theres a post by a member here called CavVet who had, it sounds a like the very same experience with the seattle police, in a thread called "got pulled over last night" My blood started boiling when I read what he wrote, and again when I read yours. MOLON LABE!!!!
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 11:39:57 AM EDT
I like getting pulled over with my CCW, it usually makes'em forget what they stopped me for in the first place. I don't care if it makes LEO jobs harder, I have an obligation to my family and myself to get us all home safe,everyday.
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 12:11:09 PM EDT
The Seattle PD are the poster children for over-reaction, because we did not have the foresight to prevent a problem lets destroy the problem. Please understand that I LOVE the city of Seattle and have a few friends in Law Enforcement throughout the region. Because of Seattle's laid back mental state and refusal to handle any problem that lays along racial lines we have these massive amounts of social problems. Seattle is a city known for citywide and cultural events, but everytime an event takes place, the low income district gets invited and mingles w/ the microsoft crowd. BOTTOM LINE=Problems! Seattle needs to stop these problems before they start.
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 12:24:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/3/2001 12:26:35 PM EDT by HANGFIRE]
Originally Posted By BryanZ1: When I told the officers as I handed him my CCW along my DL, INS and REG. I was wearing a concealed weapon, he instructed me to get out of the car and lay in the street. He also called back up to search our car(I think they found a dirty diaper), all of this while my baby is watching his father get yelled at for owning a firearm. I have never been so insulted and degraded as I was on that night.
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Did you speak with your attorney? Did you file a complaint with the Police Dept.? Have you asked for a copy of "policy and procedures"? My advice is to contact CavVet and tryto get a class action started. You guys should start making a lot of NOISE!
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 12:30:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/3/2001 12:28:31 PM EDT by BryanZ1]
I was told later by a rep for the chiefs office that " it was an unforunate situation that had occured, but due to the violence from the nights past revolving around the pioneer square mardi gras celebration, extreme action and tactics had been implemented throughout the city." My lawyer looked into it, I did get an apology letter, and a the SPD 25% dicount card at Dunkins Donuts.(J/K. Whatta Do.
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 12:58:50 PM EDT
ANY civilian that is found to have a concealed firearm, permit or not, is a clear and present danger to all law enforcement and such individuals should be treated with the highest suspicion. These people have a tired and outdated belief in a document that has outlived it's usefulness. With school gun violence on the rise, it is time that all civilian americans back the upcoming firearms control conference by the ONLY international humanitarian organization the UN.
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 4:01:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/3/2001 4:02:36 PM EDT by Sparky315]
BryanZ1- Sorry to hear about that unfortunate incident. I can assure you that an officer in my department who proned you out in the middle of the street merely for the 'offense' of having a CCW would not last long. It's this kind of behavior that promotes the 'us vs. them' stuff and causes good people to dislike and distrust LEO's. GunScum- If open carry is legal in Colorado, your brother has grounds for a lawsuit. Standing in line to buy a taco is hardly behavior indicative of someone who is about to commit a crime, and absent some evidence your brother was up to no good the cops had absolutely no right to treat him that way. The confiscation of his weapon and ammunition is nothing less than theft. Police officers can seize things if they are contraband or evidence of a crime, but they could no more seize his gun than I could walk up to you and demand you surrender your shirt because I didn't like the design. How in the hell do they think he has to 'justify' why he 'needs' his lawful property in order for them to return it????? That boggles the mind and screams 'police state'. I've heard lots of bad things about gunowners being maltreated in Colorado. Apparently it's not politically correct to arrest the poor, misguided youths that make up their street gangs, but law-abiding gun owners seem to be fair game. It is true that, percentage-wise, CCW holders commit far fewer crimes than the rest of society. I for one feel comforted by the fact that some armed citizen may save my bacon on a traffic stop gone bad some night. States that deny their citizens the right to carry weapons for lawful self-defense obviously see those citizens as subjects unworthy of trust. Police departments and officers who think that citizens should not be able to carry have forgotten what their job is and who they serve. If the state doesn't allow citizens to carry concealed, then police shouldn't be allowed to carry off-duty either. That might change some minds in a hurry. It all comes back to the elitist idea that the 'unwashed masses' cannot be trusted. Whether or not CCW is a 'burden' or an aid to LEO's is irrelevant, what matters is that a free people should not be disbarred the use of arms, and that means the right to own and carry weapons in public. How that right affects us flatfeet on the beat shouldn't matter- lots of things affect us, and because some cops don't like it is not a legitimate reason to infringe on that right.
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 4:09:59 PM EDT
You da Man Sparky! Pardon the Pun? [:D] We need more guys like you!!
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 5:18:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gun Scum: but they kept the ammo, saying that he didn't need that kind of ammo (Federal Hydro shock hallow points) and that if he wanted it back he would have to write the sheriff a letter and ask for it and have a good reason.
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Better he go out in public with FMJ target loads. They're a lot safer. dumbasses
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