Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Log In

A valid email is required.
Password is required.
Posted: 5/31/2001 7:41:59 PM EST
The Brady anti-gun law has resulted in denial of a firearms purchase to a former policeman who is an honored war veteran. Why? A juvenile record from 42 years ago that was supposed to be "sealed” nonetheless came back to deny him the right to buy a gun for his wife’s protection. This is the story of Michael Bruce Williams of Jacobson, Minn., a veteran of 22 years of honorable active-duty military service. He was denied the right to buy a firearm even though he had had plenty of experience with firearms: in the Air Force (including a tour of duty in Vietnam), as a National Guardsman, as a policeman, and then back into the service - this time with the Navy for 14 years. In all of the above capacities, he served with honor and distinction. He now has a daughter, born while he was in Vietnam, who today serves as a chief petty officer in the U.S. Navy. Williams’ wife of 38 years, a long-distance bicyclist, felt vulnerable while riding to train for a 200-mile bike ride last summer. He suggested she attend self-defense courses sponsored by the local sheriff, get a "permit to carry" and carry a handgun. When he went to buy a handgun for her for Mother's Day last year, he was denied that right because the background check required by the Brady law found a juvenile conviction. It was spotted by the Justice Department’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). The conviction involved a juvenile burglary charge in 1959, when Williams was 16 years old. NewsMax.com has obtained a copy of a court order dated Sept. 12, 1960, wherein a judge in the Superior Court of Skagit County, Wash., acknowledged that the young Williams had behaved himself during the probation period. Therefore the court allowed him to plead not guilty to the crime. Further, the judge ordered that the charge "is hereby dismissed and the defendant is … released from all penalties and disabilities resulting from the filing of said charge.” The records were supposed to be sealed and expunged. But as the 59-year-old Williams told NewsMax.com Thursday, "You can’t expunge memories.” And a sheriff had neglected to destroy or discard a card file that remained and came back to haunt Williams more than 40 years later when he went to buy a handgun for his wife’s protection. When he protested to the feds, he got a letter last December from Monica Snyder, speaking for Timothy Munson, section chief for the NICS Program Office. The letter stated that the document showing the Order of Dismissal in 1960 was "insufficient to authorize your ability to purchase or redeem a firearm.” "Therefore,” it added, "you are ineligible to purchase or possess firearms.” Because Williams already possessed several guns, more or less as trophies from his military and police days, he moved all firearms from his residence, on the advice of his attorney. The very fact that he was suddenly told he could not even possess firearms after having used them over the years in so many official capacities seemed bizarre. All because of a youthful error back in 1959. "The only other blemish on my record," he told NewsMax.com, "is a ticket for going 65 mph in a 55 mph zone … while driving to the District 8 Republican convention.”
Link Posted: 5/31/2001 7:42:29 PM EST
The next thing the veteran and ex-policeman did was to hire a lawyer, Gary Jones, back in his native Washington state, where the youthful crime had occurred. The attorney wrote the federal authorities arguing that the denial "does not follow the Washington State law” regarding the Certificate of Rehabilitation that had been granted his client many years ago. Ultimately, Williams ended up having to go to his senators and congressman for help. Just within the last two weeks, he received a call from an aide to Sen. Mark Dayton, D-Minn., who told him the senator’s office had seen to it that the ancient record back in Washington state was expunged. When Williams said he would like to see that in writing, the senate aide told him to "go ahead and buy a gun. You’re clear.” As of this writing, he is awaiting the outcome of his latest attempted purchase.The point is that Williams should not have had to go to the time, money and headache of having to hire a lawyer or petition the office of a United States senator to achieve his Second Amendment rights. What if his wife had been harmed because he couldn’t get her a gun? Does this red tape make sense for someone who carried guns in serious professional pursuits as a member of the Air Force, the Navy, the National Guard and the Montevideo, Minn., police force? The latter position was achieved after he had been certified as a police patrolman by the state of Minnesota. This is what critics of the Brady law are talking about when they point to the "unintended consequences.”
Link Posted: 5/31/2001 8:36:58 PM EST
I haven't had the trouble Mr. Williams has but I've had a hassle of my own, well several hassles actually. Since the NICS was implimented, I have been *[b]DELAYED[/b]* every single time I have made a purchase. I don't want to list HOW many times that has been but it has been ALOT. No one at the FBI can give me a good reason why this keeps happening. I don't have a common name, I don't have a record and I brush & floss every day! Because of the FBI's stupidity and total disregard for my rights, I have been unable to purchase many firearms at gunshows due to the delay. Who wants to pay shipping in three days on a gun that you've got in your hand right now! For me, there's been nothing "instant" about the National Instant Check System. It sucks the biggest of weanies. Angry Greg in America
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 6:38:55 AM EST
I bet Mr. Williams will be in statistics being quoted by HCI and its minions that the backgrounds checks are working because we denied X many number of people for trying to buy guns.
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 6:49:54 AM EST
Originally Posted By Coltshooter: I haven't had the trouble Mr. Williams has but I've had a hassle of my own, well several hassles actually. Since the NICS was implimented, I have been *[b]DELAYED[/b]* every single time I have made a purchase. I don't want to list HOW many times that has been but it has been ALOT. No one at the FBI can give me a good reason why this keeps happening. I don't have a common name, I don't have a record and I brush & floss every day! Because of the FBI's stupidity and total disregard for my rights, I have been unable to purchase many firearms at gunshows due to the delay. Who wants to pay shipping in three days on a gun that you've got in your hand right now! For me, there's been nothing "instant" about the National Instant Check System. It sucks the biggest of weanies. Angry Greg in America
View Quote
if you are in the military or DOD job or any job that requires a security clearance from the military then you will be delayed... while i was in the service i was delayed now that im out im no longer delayed ... i was told about this from a friend of mine that does background checks he said it because they want to review your security file...seems fucked up
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 7:02:13 AM EST
You bet HCI uses these stats as proof that Brady denies "criminals" access to firearms. I have a felony arrest from 1972 (I shot a burglar.) and the charges were dismissed. Not only was I delayed, I was "denied" on several occaisions. Moreover, I was approved after searches on the delays and then the BATF notified me AND the gun shop that I had been denied purchase FIVE TIMES. A phoned the FBI and informed them that "attempting to purchase a firearm when one has been denied or refused is a felony weapons violation and that I'd be coming down to their office and expect to be charged and booked." You know that the FBI doesn't follow up on these denials. The woman taking my call replied, "Oh! I like your style! Let me get to the bottom of this mess!" And she did get to the bottom of the mess. In the meantime, the BATF came to my house to "recover" the firearm that I bought "unlawfully." (NICS never got back to the dealer in the 72 hr. alloted time period.) My reaction to the recovery of "the firearm" was . . . WHICH firearm??? (Although I didn't say that.) It took me six months of active research and several long drives to the state police HQ at the state capitol to resolve this clerical error. Fingerprinting and records search cost me about $25. Certified copies of county court records took a day of MY looking through microfiche and $5 for a certified copy. I missed buying two one-of-a-kind collectable guns at bargin prices. So, what can we deduce from this? BATF/NICS searches are inaccurate. Despite NICS searches, I purchased several firearms "in error" when the 72 hr. time period passed without a reply. FBI doesn't prosecute violations. Citizens' Constitutional civil liberties are being trampled. (I'm a disabled Veteran.) HCI and liberal bleeding hearts cite these stats as an indicator that the program is working. If I want to buy a firearm, I can purchase one on the street or out of the classified ads in the newspaper. (BTW, I have my record cleared and have been issued my CCW-- but it took time and money.)
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 7:12:17 AM EST
Originally Posted By Coltshooter: I have been *[b]DELAYED[/b]* every single time I have made a purchase. I don't want to list HOW many times that has been but it has been ALOT. No one at the FBI can give me a good reason why this keeps happening. I don't have a common name, I don't have a record and I brush & floss every day! Because of the FBI's stupidity and total disregard for my rights, I have been unable to purchase many firearms at gunshows due to the delay.
View Quote
This used to happen to me all the time too, I had a misdemeanor 6 years ago that was plead down and expunged 6 mos. later, and it wasn't any type of misdemeanor that would prohibit me, still I had to wait 3 days each time, until magicly last year they all started going instantly for me. Weird huh?
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 12:01:05 PM EST
I met a guy at a gunshow once who is from maryland. He was arested in 1958 for drag raceing Aperrently it was a felony at the time. He hasnt been able to get through NICS
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 12:05:02 PM EST
Uh, I hope you all realize that the background check was put into the brady bill at the insistance of the NRA as a "compromise" to a mandatory waiting period.
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 12:09:35 PM EST
Well guys, pick a SHALL ISSUE state, and get your CCW. I don't go through NICS anymore, they just verify that my CCW is legit, and I am out the door. Still have to fill out the yellow form, but don't have to wait for the stupid computer to approve me. Bought 20 firearms in the past 2 years, never had a problem as yet.
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 4:56:39 PM EST
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Is anybody really surprised by this? I'm not, and I'm only 20. This is what happens when people obey laws that they know to be wrong and unconstitutional, because they "don't want to get involved", or "want to be left alone", or "I get sacrifice my job or my wife or kids", or "I'm not going to jail over (insert law here)". When will people learn? I doubt they will
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 5:11:53 PM EST
Originally Posted By SquireSCA: Well guys, pick a SHALL ISSUE state, and get your CCW. I don't go through NICS anymore, they just verify that my CCW is legit, and I am out the door. Still have to fill out the yellow form, but don't have to wait for the stupid computer to approve me. Bought 20 firearms in the past 2 years, never had a problem as yet.
View Quote
Works that way in n.y. state also, long as you have a permit.......MAN!...sure is a good thing Big Brother is weeding out all the CRIMINALS from getting thier hands on a GUN!!!! .........[flag]...[rolleyes]...[puke]
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 5:17:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/1/2001 5:16:18 PM EST by SinistralRifleman]
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 5:36:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By warlord: I bet Mr. Williams will be in statistics being quoted by HCI and its minions that the backgrounds checks are working because we denied X many number of people for trying to buy guns.
View Quote
Yep, what a load of shit!
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 5:38:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By SinistralRifleman:
Originally Posted By SquireSCA: Well guys, pick a SHALL ISSUE state, and get your CCW. I don't go through NICS anymore, they just verify that my CCW is legit, and I am out the door. Still have to fill out the yellow form, but don't have to wait for the stupid computer to approve me. Bought 20 firearms in the past 2 years, never had a problem as yet.
View Quote
This is one reason CCW permits are a poison pill. You shouldn't need a permit to exercise a constitutional right. When you accept a permit to exercise a right, you're saying it's no longer a right, but a priviledge. The government makes the permits more appealing by doing things like allowing you to instantly get through NICS (it's supposed to be instant anyway), which shouldn't even exist to begin with. So more people will accept the permits and then it strengthens the argument that it isn't a right, but a priviledge because they voluntarily said so when they signed that piece of paper. With both your permit and NICS you are registered as a gun owner. The Brady Law needs to be abolished, and carrying concealed weapons needs to be decriminalized. typo edit
View Quote
This is a good point too. We are just being conditioned to "showing your papers".
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 5:54:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By libertyof76: I've said it before and I'll say it again: Is anybody really surprised by this? I'm not, and I'm only 20. This is what happens when people obey laws that they know to be wrong and unconstitutional, because they "don't want to get involved", or "want to be left alone", or "I get sacrifice my job or my wife or kids", or "I'm not going to jail over (insert law here)". When will people learn? I doubt they will
View Quote
i learned a long time ago, none of my firearms are "on paper", i have all the right spare parts, and i dont give a damn if my mags are post ban or not. and they cant break down my door and find them because there not here. i keep them in a safe place, ready to use when necessary. but i wont be killing any innocent cops at my door, because there wont be anything to kill em with here, (so they can't detain me either.) if there is a civil war it will be in the very near future.
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 5:55:23 PM EST
I get delayed every single time to. And I give SS# on the form. When they got that, there is no excuse for delay. My delay is usually 10 minutes at the most but a delay none the less.
Top Top