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3/20/2017 5:03:23 PM
Posted: 5/29/2001 7:29:12 PM EDT
I was wanting to buy some real powerful pepper spray.Any suggestions on the most powerful?Please give the name and other information.
Link Posted: 5/29/2001 7:46:28 PM EDT
I got some for my wife a few weeks ago at a gun show. It was 15%. I think the brand is 10-13. HTH Eric Oh, about $7.00.
Link Posted: 5/29/2001 7:51:42 PM EDT
.45 ACP [img]http://www.ar15.com/forums/images/smiles/smiley_smartass.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 5/29/2001 7:51:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2001 7:52:17 PM EDT by mattja]
Fox is known as one of the best. Try [url]www.selfdefenseproducts.com[/url] By the way, the fog spray is probably best if you have no experience using the stuff. However, the steam is preferable if it's windy.
Link Posted: 5/29/2001 7:55:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/29/2001 8:14:49 PM EDT
Having received a direct application of Bodyguard 5.5% OC spray in training, I can tell you that it is very effective stuff, and that anything labeled as a higher percentage is not actually any more effective (unless you're talking about the big cans they use on bears). Make sure you spray it at arm's length when you are downwind and 6-8 ft from your badguy. Then move. Kinda like shoot-move-communicate. Spray-move-assess. -Andy "Can you describe the suspect?" "Um, it was some guy in a hat...."
Link Posted: 5/29/2001 8:21:32 PM EDT
Don't get too caughtup in the percentage of OC relative to the carrier(i.e. 5 % vs. 10 %, etc) The "burning" effect is measured in Scolville Heat Units. Pablano peppers rate around 85000 scolville heat units(SHUs). The spray that I carry on duty is rated at 2,000,000 SHUs. You want to find out how many SHUs it is rated at. Also, OC doesn't take its fullest effect until the carrier agent evaporates fully from the skin of the offender. Therefore, please remember, use only a short burst. hosing them down with half a can only delays the inevitable. I have found that less than a second to a full second gives me the best results. Ronnie
Link Posted: 5/29/2001 8:30:47 PM EDT
I am issued a 10% spray, but i personally went out and purchased FOX LABS 5.3, it is 2% OC but the SHU is 5.3 million. It is the hottest spary on the market, as mentioned earlier do not get caught up in the OC percentage number, its the heat that makes this S%@t hurt. You can order it from GALLS.
Link Posted: 5/29/2001 8:35:10 PM EDT
I carry Pepper Spray (LE approved10%), on my bicycle to discourage biting/snapping dogs that live in the getto down the road from me. The stuff does work and the dogs there still chase me but from a distance. The thing about pepper spray is that it is commonly shared between user and victim. As stated in the previous posts be aware of the wind conditions and wash your hands immediately after. I absently minded wiped the sweat from my forehead and around my eyes after using it last month and paid dearly!
Link Posted: 5/29/2001 8:53:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/29/2001 10:03:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By oneshot1kill: I was wondering if there are any restrictions on buying pepper spray? My friend is a LEO and he gave my wife a can of PHASER III red pepper spray, but I just looked at it and it is marked 'for LE use only.' Anyone know if phaser brand is any good? My wife works late night on weekends and she depends on her pepper spray for safety. She would love to carry a pistol, she is very good with firearms, but this is NYC, and the best she could get is a target permit.
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I don't know of any restrictions. I buy it off the web at the site I mentioned above. Perhaps the LE stuff is that 1% OC and 1% teargas mix. Fox sells it in a one pound canister called "Firemaster".
Link Posted: 5/30/2001 12:06:26 AM EDT
Bodygaurd/Gaurdian both good brands.The SHU not the % is what counts.It can fail with some individuals.Im an instructor and have been sprayed several times.I know what to expect and could give a good shot at kicking some ones ass after they sprayed me.My respiratory passages dont swell up as bad and I can keep my eyes open although very blurry.Surprise spraying is more effective.Doesnt give a person a chance to not breath or close eyes.In Florida its a felony to carry over 15/16oz without a CCW.Dont get one of those little keychain dribble ones.Dont put it on a keychain either if someone grabs you while yoiu got it in a lock you could lose it.About 20% of the people I tell and show this to do it anyway.Amazing.
Link Posted: 5/30/2001 12:10:36 AM EDT
If the pepper sprat doesnt work I suggest a 230 grain lead injection.Its a know fact all criminals suffer from a heavy metal deficiency.
Link Posted: 5/30/2001 12:11:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/30/2001 12:12:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/30/2001 1:26:50 AM EDT
Don't forget to practice on [u]yourself[/u] so you know what to expect if it gets turned on you or you get a riccochet of the stuff. Seriously.
Link Posted: 5/30/2001 4:06:42 AM EDT
My dept. (NYPD) is currently using a new spray that comes in a black label bottle. The old green label stuff used to shoot out a red liquid stream, the new stuff shoots out a white liquid stream and I'll just say, from personal experience, that it dropped a 265lb+ "Emotionally Disturbed Person" no problem...this stuff is wicked, and I'd use it first before considering more serious force options.
Link Posted: 5/30/2001 4:37:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/30/2001 6:04:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/30/2001 4:45:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/30/2001 10:37:01 PM EDT
F*cking Hayward, if they didn't pay me what they do I wouldn't work in that scuz bucket of a city.
Link Posted: 5/30/2001 11:06:59 PM EDT
Pepper spray is a lot like a firearm--sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. If used properly you can expect to have an immediate incapacitation rate of about 80%. Like others have said, look for SHU, not percentage. And although my instructor certification is for another company, I carry and recommend the Fox formula. Wickedest stuff around!
Link Posted: 5/30/2001 11:56:17 PM EDT
ketchup on the skin, 7up in the eyes, takes the burn away. One of my old jobs I used to spray someone nearly every other day. Had my share of "backblast". D.
Link Posted: 5/31/2001 6:48:27 AM EDT
You know I probably use more pepper spray then anybody. I use it on almost a daily basis; I run on rural country roads and am constantly attacked by country dogs. And I can say without a doubt that pepper spray is almost useless for the following reasons: 1. Pepper spray is very hard to use accurately, unlike a pistol which is relatively easy to point, a round can of pepper spray may or may not clearly have the nozzle clearly delineated. i.e. you aim it by first firing it and then like a garden hose you try and spray it at your intended target. 2. Given 1. above, pepper spray is very easy to dodge. Like someone urinating, you just step aside from the stream. Dogs have absolutely no problems dodging it, and any reasonable agile human would also have no problem dodging it. 3. It doesn't work well in a strong wind, you might spray yourself 4. It doesn't work well against any dog/man with long hair over their eyes/face. The hair just soaks it up. 5. It doesn't work well in cold weather. The propellant in the can, given the basic gas law of pv=nrt. If everything else is constant, when you lower the temp (t) you also lower the pressure (p) in the can. In cold weather pepper spray comes out like a limp dick. 6. Sometimes the cans develop a slow propellant leak over time and when you try to use it it's just non-functional. 7. The can have a tendence to suddenly run dry or just otherwise (in addition to 6.) malfunction. 8. Pepper spray won't work on trained attack dogs and/or highly motivated people/dogs, and/or crazy people. 9. Occasionally people sprayed with pepper spray get an allergic reaction to it and their throat swells up and they can't breath and dye. Therefore you are now a murderer. If you meant to kill the perp you would have shot them, but you obviously didn't intend to kill them, that's why you sprayed them, however sh*t happens and now you're screwed, you murderer. Basically pepper spray is useless for pretty much of anything. The only way it repels dogs is they get scared of the stream coming out.
Link Posted: 5/31/2001 7:06:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sitting Bull: 9. Occasionally people sprayed with pepper spray get an allergic reaction to it and their throat swells up and they can't breath and dye. Therefore you are now a murderer. If you meant to kill the perp you would have shot them, but you obviously didn't intend to kill them, that's why you sprayed them, however sh*t happens and now you're screwed, you murderer.
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Whether I shoot someone with my pistol or spray them with OC, I do so to stop the threat, not to kill. So, I don't really understand this intent not to kill logic. Since NIJ couldn't find a single case of in-custody death that resulted from application of OC spray, it's a non-lethal device. A hell of a lot easier to explain in court than shooting a guy if you can avoid it. Not that all or even most shootings can be avoided.
Basically pepper spray is useless for pretty much of anything. The only way it repels dogs is they get scared of the stream coming out.
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So, if the OC is useless, why do you even bother with it? Since the dogs are just scared of the stream coming out, why not just carry a squirt bottle of water? There are usage/training issues involved with OC spray, and it won't solve every problem. But if I can solve a problem with a fruit spray (food product, level 4 on the continuum of force) instead of shooting someone (deadly force, level 7), I'm going to take that option. A WHOLE lot easier to defend to a prosecutor, grand jury, or jury. -Andy "Can you describe the suspect?" "Um, it was some guy in a hat...."
Link Posted: 5/31/2001 7:28:50 AM EDT
To the folks that say OC doesn't work...... I sure have seen a lot of unhappy people in handcuffs that requested "field treatment" because the stuff hurts. I have seen many uncooperative 200+ lb males arrested by 150 lb or less female officers. How do you figure they managed that? ps - Propylene Glycol works well as a decon agent. Check out the grocery store aisle, the item is often called a "baby wipe" . I once heard of a medic that used water to re-activate the agent when the "would be" patient mouthed off. Bad medic, shame on you....
Link Posted: 5/31/2001 8:21:01 AM EDT
SomeGuy - I would use a squirt gun, or some other type of fluid, but what scares the dogs in the big thick stream (pepper foam). Squirt guns have a very thin stream. If you can tell me of something that has a large thick stream like pepper foam (and is hopefully cheaper) I would be happy to use it. You say that you spray them to stop the threat, but you intent is not to kill. If your intent was to kill them you would shoot them not spray them. Thus and therefore if you spray them and they die, you, by the above line of reasoning, did not intend to kill them. Henceforth you are guilty of manslaughter. Oh I'm sure that the NIJ didn't fine any cases of in-custody deaths from this. I'm positive of that. I'm sure that those deaths got written up very, very carefully so they wouldn't appear to be from this condition. medicjim - Oh year sure, if the suspect is in handcuffs then pepper spray will eventually work. It's easy to hit them, they're not moving. If you can doesn't work, you get another. If they have long hair you just keep spraying from different angles, ect... Problems 1-7 are taken care of by having the suspect in handcuffs. If one or two cans doesn't work, you can wait for FED-EX to deliver more, and then continue spraying. Eventually, you'll get an effect. But, on a mobile, athletic subject out-doors it's virtually useless. Question for you, how many times in your life have YOU used pepper spray to defend yourself. I've used it to defend myself hundreds of times, it doesn't work on mobile, athletic subjects out-doors. I almost always have to use my baton - which works 100% of the time.
Link Posted: 5/31/2001 8:30:32 AM EDT
i used pepper spray all the time when i worked for a county jail for two years. it was sabre red LE only.... it worked 95% of the time and I would recomend using it rather then fist fighting or wrestling. im not bruce lee and it saved my bacon lots of times...we were not allowed to take sidearms into the lock-up areas... if you cant use a gun Mace helps.
Link Posted: 5/31/2001 8:47:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/31/2001 8:45:51 AM EDT by medicjim]
Sitting Bull asked "how many times in your life have you used pepper spray to defend yourself" Once. vs canine. It worked. I have directly seen pepper spray used three times to defend ME. In all three cases, I was acting as an EMS provider, forbidden to carry or employ OC. In all three cases, the police officer using it was protecting me and it worked. I have personally been accidentally sprayed once during training. It worked on me and I now have a great deal of respect for it's utility.
Link Posted: 5/31/2001 9:25:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/31/2001 9:42:21 AM EDT by SomeGuyInAHat]
If you can tell me of something that has a large thick stream like pepper foam (and is hopefully cheaper) I would be happy to use it.
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Foam is designed for indoor use, courtrooms, jails, etc., because spray has a tendency to get into the ventilation systems. Spray is for outdoor use. Much easier to get on target if your subject is moving. As for a suggestion, there are dog-specific sprays including one called Muzzle.
You say that you spray them to stop the threat, but you intent is not to kill. If your intent was to kill them you would shoot them not spray them. Thus and therefore if you spray them and they die, you, by the above line of reasoning, did not intend to kill them. Henceforth you are guilty of manslaughter.
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If I use OC spray to defend myself from an articulable threat, and by a billionth of a chance that badguy dies due to a pre-existing condition that I could not have been aware of, I do not believe I am guilty of a crime. That would, of course, be up to a jury. Further, you don't seem to grasp that even if I shoot the suspect and place 14 rounds center of mass, it is not my intention to kill him. It is my intention to stop a threat of deadly force that that suspect is applying to myself, my partner, or another person. As soon as that suspect is no longer a threat, my focus switches to preserving his or her life.
Oh I'm sure that the NIJ didn't fine any cases of in-custody deaths from this. I'm positive of that. I'm sure that those deaths got written up very, very carefully so they wouldn't appear to be from this condition.
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Can you show me a case where A) an individual died as a direct result of an application of OC spray and/or B) an individual was found guilty of any degree of murder where the weapon was OC spray?
medicjim - Oh year sure, if the suspect is in handcuffs then pepper spray will eventually work. It's easy to hit them, they're not moving.
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I'm pretty sure that medicjim wasn't talking about suspects that were sprayed after being cuffed. That's pretty hard to defend. I'm pretty sure that Jim was talking about suspects who were cuffed after they were sprayed. They were in cuffs because they stopped resisting or threatening after being sprayed. We spray a maximum of twice, with a 1 second application both times. We assess the situation before spraying, spray, move, re-asses, and if necessary re-apply and move again. If two applications don't work, and the subject is still resisting/threatening (hasn't happened yet), I'm backing way off. We don't spray suspects in handcuffs. To be authorized to carry my own can of whoopass, I was required to receive a direct application. I can tell you firsthand it is effective. You seem to be arguing both sides of the coin. You say it is useless but that you could kill someone with it. Your argument that it is useless stems from not being able to hit your target - if you can't hit 'em with a fog of OC spray from 6-8 feet, can you hit 'em with a handgun round? Your argument that it can be deadly is based on an extreme case. True, it shouldn't be used on infants, the elderly, or people with asthma. I can't imagine needing to use level 4 force on an infant or some old geezer on oxygen. If they're asthmatic and presenting that level of force, they're taking their own chances. -Andy "Can you describe the suspect?" "Um, it was some guy in a hat...." Edited to add more stuff.
Link Posted: 5/31/2001 10:39:39 AM EDT
burn - I agree with you, I would much rather use pepper spray then wrestling/fist fighting. Glad it worked for you. If that's all you're allowed to use then I guess that's all you can use. medicjim - If you're forbidden to carry or use anything, then it's better then nothing. SomeGuy - Am very interested in the spray called "Muzzle". Do you know where it is available? -You're right that an accidental death would be up to a jury. As Dirty Harry said "do you feel lucky?" -You've explained yourself better now, I would agree that you're not trying to kill him, just make him stop. -I have heard of cases where people have died and the user of pepper spray has been charged, unfortunately I cannot quote/cite you a reference. -I am somewhat arguing both sides of the coin. Peppper spray has worked so unpredictible for me that it's not woth the potential risks of killing someone. If pepper spray worked well, then it potentially would be worth the risks. Risks vs benefits. -Oh I'm sure I could hit em with a handgun round when I can't with pepper spray. No doubt about that there. 1200 fps vs 3 fps. -Let me guess, before you spray some guy you always ask them if they are allergic to oleocapscasin's and if they have asthma? You can't tell if someone has asthma by looking at them. You also can't tell a persons' drug allergies by looking at someone. People who use oxygen have emphysema, not asthma. People who have asthma usually are fine until something triggers it. You could be in a fight with some guy who's perfectly fine, breathaing without problem until you spray him. Then the wheezing and airway closure would start.
Link Posted: 5/31/2001 10:46:13 AM EDT
I have used "First Defense" brand Oleoresin Capsicum sprays dozens of times. In my experiance the mist/fogger delivery pattern works better than the stream type cans. About 10% of people are not incapacitated by OC spray but that is what they make Batons for. BTW: a couple times crooks have turned their head as I sprayed them and got the stream type spray right into their ear canal. They cried and clawed at their ear for hours after the initial exposure. It looked very painful.
Link Posted: 5/31/2001 11:56:56 PM EDT
>>You say that you spray them to stop the threat, but you intent is not to kill. If your intent was to kill them you would shoot them not spray them. Thus and therefore if you spray them and they die, you, by the above line of reasoning, did not intend to kill them. Henceforth you are guilty of manslaughter.<< I don't know who is giving you legal advice, but you need to get somebody else, as that is not even close to being correct. >>But, on a mobile, athletic subject out-doors it's virtually useless.<< Not if you know what you are doing with it and how to use it. >>Question for you, how many times in your life have YOU used pepper spray to defend yourself.<< I've used it several hundred times over my career, and it has worked pretty good. >>I've used it to defend myself hundreds of times, it doesn't work on mobile, athletic subjects out-doors.<< If it doesn't work, why do you keep using it?? Get some training in how to use it, and get rid of that silly pepper foam (most instructors consider it to be the least useful and effective of all the formats) and you migh have a greater success rate.
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 5:23:52 AM EDT
darm441 - what brand of spray do you use, and do you have a web site where it is available?
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 10:03:09 AM EDT
I use Fox brand, and order it from Galls. I'm not aware of a website for the manufacturer.
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 12:04:03 PM EDT
I carry the Sabre Red LEO stuff, but have never had to use it. I had to get certified and registered just to carry it. Part of the certification is that you, the carrier, have to be exposed to it. I guess they want people to realize the effect this stuff has so you want be hosing everybody down with it. Believe me from experience, this is nasty stuff. Luckily the antidote was applied just after my contact - it would be miserable to have to 'wear' this stuff for any amount of time. This stuff works - period. I got to see a police video where a big black guy (300lbs.) walks into a convenience store and starts harassing the clerk and customers. He wasn't wearing any clothes and was probably wacked out on something. Anyway, an officer arrives and subdues this guy with Sabre. Just a small shot to the head with the spray and this guy immediately went from a ranting crazed lunatic to a snot sniffling, coughing and hacking pile of garbage - the effect was immediate. This guy was squalling like a baby to get the cop to wash it off. Although it works on people, it isn't recommended for animals (although some foresters carry it for bears). The guy who got me mine said that dogs were not affected like people for some reason. One other thing - before you use it on someone, you are required by law in most states to inform them that they are about the be hosed with pepper spray before you hose them, then it's your responsibility to see that they don't injure themselves while they're flopping around. You could get sued if you don't - Go figure. Anyway the Sabre LE grade is the real McCoy. But for dogs, you might want to get a good cattle prod.
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 12:07:10 PM EDT
I carry the Sabre Red LEO stuff, but have never had to use it. I had to get certified and registered just to carry it. Part of the certification is that you, the carrier, have to be exposed to it. I guess they want people to realize the effect this stuff has so you want be hosing everybody down with it. Believe me from experience, this is nasty stuff. Luckily the antidote was applied just after my contact - it would be miserable to have to 'wear' this stuff for any amount of time. This stuff works - period. I got to see a police video where a big black guy (300lbs.) walks into a convenience store and starts harassing the clerk and customers. He wasn't wearing any clothes and was probably wacked out on something. Anyway, an officer arrives and subdues this guy with Sabre. Just a small shot to the head with the spray and this guy immediately went from a ranting crazed lunatic to a snot sniffling, coughing and hacking pile of garbage - the effect was immediate. This guy was squalling like a baby to get the cop to wash it off. Although it works on people, it isn't recommended for animals (although some foresters carry it for bears). The guy who got me mine said that dogs were not affected like people for some reason. One other thing - before you use it on someone, you are required by law in most states to inform them that they are about the be hosed with pepper spray before you hose them, then it's your responsibility to see that they don't injure themselves while they're flopping around. You could get sued if you don't - Go figure. Anyway the Sabre LE grade is the real McCoy - it uses military CS tear gas and a highly concentrated capsicum (red pepper) derivative. Sabre is made by Security Equipment Corp in Fenton, Missouri (right outside St. Louis). But for dogs, you might want to get a good cattle prod.
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 12:11:25 PM EDT
Sounds like Sabre LE is the way to go, but probably only available for LEO's. What's Gall's. Is this an outlet store, I know the manufacturer of the Fox brand doesn't have a web site, but does Gall's have a web site??
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