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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:12:36 PM EDT
ok... here goes im not trying to start a fight i just didnt follows this as close as some did. I'm sorry for the children that died there. but i have no sympathy for any of the adults. legal reasoning aside. Wasnt david F#$KIN Little girls there (rape-molestation) everyone forgets about that when they hammer the ATF. I know the BATF sucks but Waco is a poor case. david was a pig and the other members of the family let him get away with it. Or was the rape thing just a story by the media..
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 12:21:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 12:21:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/25/2001 12:21:51 PM EDT by EdAvilaSr]
[url]http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/index.html[/url] cut and paste this link, read and digest the information and get back to us Edited only to activate the link
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 12:23:35 PM EDT
Burn - Please don't say another word or even think another thought on this subject until you have done some serious research. The first source would be WACO - RULES OF ENGAGEMENT an award-winning movie about what happened at Waco. After viewing this movie and doing some research to verify facts etc. - then come back and tell us what you think.
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 12:23:36 PM EDT
According to all the cop haters, conspiracy theorists, anti-government crowd and general rable rousers on here the whole thing was one big conspiracy by Clinton, Reno, FBI, ATF, CIA, all law enforcement agencies and all LEO's to take away our 2nd Amendment rights to own a firearm, rape children, and commit felonies. I hate Clinton and Reno and have no great love for the FBI or ATF, but to think they somehow orchestrated this whole thing is absurd. As is the idea they were shooting at people trying to escape the flaming buildings. As is the idea they set fire to the building in the FIRST place. Koresh was a religious zealot (no crime) who wanted to stockpile arms (again no crime) which some happened to be unregistered or illegally converted machine guns (uh oh, a crime now) and hand grenades (woops, another crime) along with having sex with minors (wow, yet another crime) through religious coercion. Then when a legally obtained search warrant was executed, in broad daylight, by exceptionally visibly uniformed and marked federal agents, these folowers and Koresh then used deadly force on the agents unlawfully (a HUGE crime). If you want to dance with the devil, dont cry when you get burned (or burnt up).
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 12:25:59 PM EDT
Even in the case of criminal wrongdoing on the part of the Davidians, US citizens are generally allowed to have a trial before we use public funds to kill 'em. It seems a case where the appointed officials did not take the "high road." What if you or I was accused of being child molesters or some other type of criminal and we were not? Would it be proper for Publicly funded hit squads to take us out in the night? I hope our society does not operate like that.
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 12:26:19 PM EDT
Killing kids is killing kids.
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 12:27:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 12:27:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/25/2001 12:25:54 PM EDT by burn]
I'll Watch the movieand check the link. yeah i think local LE office and ranger would have done a better job...PLUS its my understanding that at the time of WACO the ATF tactical team left a lot to be desirred in the formal training part of their unit.
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 12:29:30 PM EDT
GunToter - The ATF has never been able to produce a single shred of evidence to show that The Brach Davidians had full-auto guns or live grenades. Further, Texas Health and Human Services conducted 3 visits to the church and found NO evidence of child abuse of any kind. Also, if you have a warrant and serve it by attacking someone with full-auto fire without even knocking - then you, as an agent of Govt, deserve whatever you get. When ATF came out of that cattle-car shooting, they should all have been mown down. If they wanted Koresh, all they had to do was arrest him as he went into town - which he did several times a week. If their goal was to 'save the children', then attacking a plywood structure with full-auto fire from hi-power weapons is not the way to do it. If you want to kill American citizens - then they went about it the correct way. In short - until you actually have facts- then shut your fat mouth and stick to things you know something about.
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 12:30:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 12:31:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/25/2001 12:30:25 PM EDT by Watch-Six]
Have you been on another planet for the last ten years or on this one in a coma? [sleep] No, I'm afraid neither is true. He just heard what "they" wanted him to hear.
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 12:32:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 12:33:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: There is no evidence the "rape thing", as you call it, was anything other than propaganda/disinformation to sway public opinion. Listening to you, I guess it worked.
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no it didnt work if you read my post. i said i didnt know! thats why i wrote the thread to get more info.
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 12:36:39 PM EDT
everybody is so quick to start throwing insults... i started this thread to be informed and not guided like a blind sheep by the goverment and instead of info i get insulted. to the guys that gave me info thanks.
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 12:40:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 12:42:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/25/2001 2:30:47 PM EDT by 556mm]
Gun toter: There has never been any real proof that Koresh commited any crime. He legally built Ar-15's, which he sold through a licensed dealer and converted dummy hand grenade hull to "complaint desk, take a number" type plaques to support hisself and his followers. I am not a branch davidian member nor a Koresh supporter, but I do know that the government never had any evidence to support thier claims of any of his alleged crimes. I also know that the government lied about alot that went on during those raids, and that and I DO believe that they started the fire indirectly through either their use of pyrotechnic gas canisters or the use of the battering ram APC's which knocked over or broke the kerosene lanterns they used to light and heat the building since they were without power. If you believe that the FBI, ATF,and DOJ weren't the criminals then you really need to look very closely at the real evidence and not the so called evidence(none) that the ATF had when getting a search warrant.
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 12:43:02 PM EDT
the other question my wife (reading over my shoulder) asked. what about the rumor about the helicopter firing round into the building ..something about her friend said you could see it in some of the video footage.
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 12:43:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 12:45:39 PM EDT
It is of my opinion that waco was going to used as a test case to apply asset-forfeiture law to religious groups.also it should be noted that after the federal assault on the compound,it was found that the members were armed per capita half as much as the general population of texas .
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 12:46:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 12:53:02 PM EDT
yeah im reading some stuff on it now . some of the crap is messed up!
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 1:00:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By burn: the other question my wife (reading over my shoulder) asked. what about the rumor about the helicopter firing round into the building ..something about her friend said you could see it in some of the video footage.
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In both WACO movies, the 911 tape wherein Steve Schnieder and alternately Wayne Williams (Black Harvard Law Grad) begged the 911 staff (locals) to contact the ATF HQ and call off the raid, as women and kids were being shot. You can clearly hear (and Steve points out) the sound of an MG firing from above with loud helicopter noises accompanying it. Govt attys tried to have this 911 tape sealed but even the bought and paid for scumbag Judge didnt go for that. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it. The only thing the Branch Davidians were "guilty" of is being "too Christian". Most military doctrine teaches that when you are attacked, and that attack stalls, you counter-attack and decimate. The BDs, when told the ATF were low on ammo, and wanted to retrieve their dead and wounded, allowed them to do so. Bad move AFAIC. D.
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 1:00:40 PM EDT
Despite evidence, or lack of it shall we say, the rape thing was a popular topic in the media. There were never any charges of rape brought against David Koresh. One of his wives was 14. In Texas, that is legal age of marriage and consent with the consent of the person and parents. I stress LEGAL. Federal law does not cover this topic at all. There were charges of child abuse spurred on by Davidian detractors. But, on Feb. 27, 1992, TX. Dept. Of Human Services social worker Joyce Sparks, visited Mt. Carmel with two other Human Services employees and two McLennan County Sheriff's deputies. Koresh allowed the visit to be videotaped. They made two more visits an Koresh visited their offices. The case was closed on April 30, 1992 for lack of evidence of abuse. The children at Mt Carmel, contrary to theh reports, were found to be very well adjusted and happy, polite children. Ms Sparks made a comment prior to the attack that she believed the government (FBI) meant to kill them all. The BATF, in spite of NO jurisdictiion whatsoever in such cases, child abuse or otherwise. They are strictly limited to cases of Alcohol, tobacco and firearms. Even if they did have jurisdiction, murdering the people you're there to protect is not justice. Disagreeing with someone's religion is not grounds for an all out military style assault, especially when the church is full of the people the attack. You don't shoot, kill and burn before the trial. This is America..or was..not Nazi Germany. That he had multiple wives was known, but so do hundreds of men in Utah, Nevada, and Arizona, in the open and secretively. I don't see the burning pyres there. If you want to learn the truth about Waco, visit www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/picturethis.html OUT
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 1:40:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/25/2001 1:39:15 PM EDT by SARguy]
Guys, I really enjoy this... an actual civil discussion. My hats off to you all. That's why I do like this forum. Now, I think the whole thing can be summed up like this: there were catastrophic screw-ups by everyone. The ATF/FBI/and Koresh. Tactically, the ATF plan was not sound. And I personally think they were grandstanding for a raid. They screwed up, plain and simple. But, as for the whole standoff thing, one man could have ended it, plain and simple. But he chose to play the role of coward and not stand up and be a man, walk out, and answer to the charges. He was a psycho with a death-wish. Some people are just like that. So in my opinion, there is no one to really stack *all* the blame on. As for all these supposed "truth" videos...horse-hockey. There weren't M1A2's and Apache's at Waco. Delta operators weren't assaulting the compound (I just LMAO when I see that). That's just silly bs put out by people with an agenda. Not everything is a conspiracy. Sometimes a catastrophic series of events just occurs. Again, good discussion going here. -SARguy
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 1:44:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/25/2001 1:47:09 PM EDT by Blue207]
After seeing the true nature of Klinton and Reno and some of the federal law enforcement agencies I can say, in my opinion, they are not competent enough to carry out a massive deception. Look at all of the info that continues to "leak out". Did ATF and FBI cover up. Absolutely. Even subsequent government investigations state so. My problem with all of this is the lack of accountability on the part of the people that made the decisions, gave the orders and then those that carried out the illegal orders. The Nuremburg Trials showed illegal orders given and followed out in no way negates personal responsibility for ones actions. From everything I have been able to read and learn about Ruby Ridge and Waco there is a strong common factor between them - TAX EVASION. Was it AFT or FBI that had a surveilance operation that lasted 6 months or so for Randy Weaver? For a few hundred bucks, for crying out loud. I personally think trolls in charge of the agencies picked these two to "make examples of" so others would not follow suit. There was a strong trend of rebelling against federal taxes underway at the time. Uncle Sam has always been real unreceptive about non-payment of taxes. Illegal liquor production in the South brought the "Revenuers" (then Bureau of Alchol, Tax and Firearms) down on them. (BTW - I am in South Carolina) It was because Uncle Sam was not getting his cut. In other words I think it was all about MONEY! I am not sure but that thought bothers me more than all the other possible reasons that have been thought up until now.
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 1:50:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/25/2001 1:56:49 PM EDT by 71-Hour_Achmed]
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: There is no evidence the "rape thing", as you call it, was anything other than propaganda/disinformation to sway public opinion.
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I'd have to disagree there -- even the Davidians admitted that their religious beliefs included polygamy. I don't know if that extended to underage children or not, but having attended a meeting at which one of the Davidians was a speaker, I do know that Koresh was having sex with many of the women, including the one who spoke that night. 14 may be the legal age for marriage in Texas, but I don't think it's the age of consent for sexual activity with an adult outside of marriage -- anyone know what Texas law says nowadays? Certainly polygamy is illegal in Texas, which would make the idea that he was "married" to all of these women irrelevant to a prosecution. Another of the allegations was that the Davidians were operating a "meth lab" on the property -- but that WAS false; they'd been trying to get the sheriff to investigate the lab which was left on the property by a previous tenant. There was some suspicion that the sheriff had ties to the drug ring, however, as he was stonewalling and refusing to look into it -- later, of course, he used the "there's a drug lab on the property" bit to claim that the Davidians were the ones who had done it.
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 2:09:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/25/2001 2:09:53 PM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 2:18:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 2:26:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 2:42:20 PM EDT
[b]But, as for the whole standoff thing, one man could have ended it, plain and simple. But he chose to play the role of coward and not stand up and be a man, walk out, and answer to the charges. He was a psycho with a death-wish. Some people are just like that.[/b] Lets not forget that if the feds really wanted to arrest Koresh, they could have done it during one of his morning jogs outside the compound while they were survaling(if that's a real word) him. And remember, he also invited them to come over and look around the compound while they were at the place of the FFL holder he sold the rifles through which they declined to do.
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 3:10:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gun Toter: Koresh was a religious zealot (no crime) who wanted to stockpile arms (again no crime) which some happened to be unregistered or illegally converted machine guns (uh oh, a crime now)
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not a crime, see 2nd Am. never proven in any case
and hand grenades (woops, another crime)
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never proven, not a crime.
along with having sex with minors (wow, yet another crime)
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never proven.
through religious coercion. Then when a legally obtained search warrant was executed,
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search warrent was illegal, not only but frauding the evidence, but also by attepting to enforce an uncontitutional ad
in broad daylight, by exceptionally visibly uniformed and marked federal agents, these folowers and Koresh then used deadly force on the agents unlawfully (a HUGE crime).
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defending yourself from agents of the government is attempting to deprive you of life, liberty, and property without due process is not illegal.
If you want to dance with the devil, dont cry when you get burned (or burnt up).
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Link Posted: 5/25/2001 3:14:39 PM EDT
I remember back when this was actually happening hearing that UPS called the ATF after a box they were delivering broke open and hand grenades were found. This led to surveillance of the Branch Davidians and so forth, and was presented by the news media as a justification for the government attacks. Except for the part about UPS breaking open a box, this story sounds pretty strange to me. If real grenades were found, there would be no need for investigations. There would be no hand-wringing over polygamous relationships. They would not begin some type of study while people were possibly running around with grenades. They would allow delivery and then immediately arrest both the shipper and the recipient, wouldn't they? Whatever the truth is about the government's motivations, or who started the fire, or whether or not escaping people were shot, I think that there is an absolute minimum level of screwing up that the government did that nobody can deny. The Davidians' home was surrounded by our government's guys. Everything that went in and out of there was controlled by our government -- the telephone, the electricity, the water. Koresh may not have surrendered yet, but those people were already held in a state of total helplessness. When our government takes away the ability of people to do things for themselves like run water or call the fire department, they darn well have an obligation to make the best effort possible to provide other protection for those people. In this, at least, they failed badly. They had no fire plan, despite having weeks to prepare one. At a minimum, our government was incredibly careless with the lives of people who were still supposedly presumed innocent.
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 3:36:59 PM EDT
I just need to clear up a few things for myself.... As I understand it, the basis for the raid was the 'suspected' non-payment of ONE instance of the $200 NFA tax. As this is a Treasury matter, I can see how ATF would get involved (they grew out of DoT, and became a full Department in 1972.) All of the polygamy and child molestation charges seems to be just add-ons. However, if Koresh was rather co-operative up until the final assault, why all the dust-up? I also seem to recall using a variety of tear gas (I don't recall the desi) that was highly flammable - and deploying it with a source of ignition (hot ammunition) in close proximity. Of course, everyone was shocked when the place went up. I have gone to the online archive, and will download it for review in its entirety. Of course, we should all know as much as possible about this. 1) Why are paramilitary units for domestic 'peace-keeping' and law enforcement created without the auspices of the Department of Justice? Seems to me that all LE duties fall under DoJ - with the small exceptions of those covered by the United States Secret Service. The USSS is a DoT agency. Why are these 'extra-military' elements required? Is justice oversight not desired? 2) Why is it necessary to kill 86 people in one of the worst ways imaginable over a SUSPICION of not having paid $200? Is our Federal Government that broke? 3) Why was Lon Horiuchi (of Ruby Ridge Fame) involved in the command structure at Waco - AFTER having proven himself an incompetent sniper? 4) If Janet Reno has accepted "full responsibility" for the events surrounding Waco and Ruby Ridge, why is she still walking the streets free, and in line for the FL-DNC nomination for Governor? 5) Why has Lon Horiuchi not been brought to task for his actions? Those a rejust a few of the questions I have.... FFZ
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 3:37:19 PM EDT
the amount of disinformation on the subjects of Ruby Ridge and Waco exhibited here is staggering. Please do not say another word until you have documentation to back up what you say, these unfounded assertions are the very thing we are trying to get rid of. I was at a rally in Lincoln, Ne a few months ago concerning the Oklahoma City bombing case (McVeigh) and reviewed copies of court documents. There also, were copies of court documents concerning Waco, believe me, you only know the tip of the ice berg. Please, no more conjecture and heresay. Documented info only! My G*d, we'll never get anywhere this way.
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 3:46:57 PM EDT
savoy1, It is unfortunate but certainly true that what we hear on the evening news can't be regarded as anything better than "hearsay." There does not even appear to be any such thing as investigative reporting any more. Just lazy talking heads being spoon-fed by the government they are supposed to be watch-dogging.
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 5:44:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sweep: I'm certian the FBI never fired a shot when the compound was burning to the ground and people were trying to escape. I do believe, however, that either Delta Force or the Navy Seals fired several shots!
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**snicker-snicker-snicker** Ok, seriously, the 3 CAG personnel there were not door kickers, they were support specialists. Not everyone in the D is a shooter. I can assure you that NSW assets were NOT there either. Trust me on that. Sheesh. SARguy
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 5:51:41 PM EDT
Blue 207, I think you are absolutely right that the whole thing was about money. But you are thinking way too small. The amount of unpaid taxes in either of these cases is nothing to the gov't budget. The Waco raid was just a couple of weeks before ATF budget hearings were scheduled in Congress. They needed a big high profile bust to justify a fat increase the agency budget.
Link Posted: 5/26/2001 12:00:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Fuzzbean: I remember back when this was actually happening hearing that UPS called the ATF after a box they were delivering broke open and hand grenades were found. This led to surveillance of the Branch Davidians and so forth, and was presented by the news media as a justification for the government attacks.
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The grenade issue was another thing that the ATF never did any investigation into. The Davidians worked in the gun show circuit and sold gag gifts composed of TRAINING GRENADES mounted on a plaque reading "Complaints dept. take a number" and a number tag affixed to the pull ring. I have a copy of the search warrant and not only are there technical errors (the ATF is in charge of enforcing laws they don't even know!) but even mentions suspected child abuse violations. Since when did it become bureau of alchohol, tobacco, firearms, and child protective services?
Link Posted: 5/26/2001 2:01:04 AM EDT
[left]it is in my mind that day that the ATF was looking for a fight they thought they were soooo good when they were handed there asses back to them on a platter. then they burned them down iam so convinced that that Gov was so pissed those 51 days they used tanks/helicopters(WITH M60's mounted on them) morter's, 50cal sniper rifles CS gas, delta force(Illegal use of the military) then the Gov Got even! they never showed the evidence of illegal machineguns or grenade's. iam also convinced too that they did not want them to come out alive. [/left]
Link Posted: 5/26/2001 4:55:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Rich314: Killing kids is killing kids.
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If i remember correctly, the local leo`s were working on a plan, but were called off by the feds.....as Ed sr. states..."paramilitary" mindset....this is where things got screwed up badly, since they could`nt march right in and had to use a tank to get in.....obviously the dividians were well prepared....i`ll bet the majority of you would shoot back also, just as the BD`s....what would anyone expect?....and the big brother boys knew this up front, therefor, totally screwed up operation....feds looking for a fight.........[puke]
Link Posted: 5/26/2001 1:23:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rubicon: Blue 207, I think you are absolutely right that the whole thing was about money. But you are thinking way too small. The amount of unpaid taxes in either of these cases is nothing to the gov't budget. The Waco raid was just a couple of weeks before ATF budget hearings were scheduled in Congress. They needed a big high profile bust to justify a fat increase the agency budget.
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Rubicon: That is probably correct and "the other side of the coin" so to speak. What principle is it that dicitates the most simple answer is usually the correct one. I would hazard a guess the entire ball of wax can be summed up in two words: money and power. I believe the Word refers to this as greed and lust.
Link Posted: 5/26/2001 1:39:08 PM EDT
well i bought the F.L.I.R. project tape today at the dayton gunshow.i'll give you my opinon on that tape after i watch it tonight.mmk
Link Posted: 5/26/2001 2:05:42 PM EDT
My thoughts are that it is not the U.S. government's job to save the children. Their primary jobs should be to tote the mail, and guard the borders, both of these tasks are being done in a piss poor manner.
Link Posted: 5/26/2001 2:41:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/26/2001 2:52:43 PM EDT
what ed sr. said.
Link Posted: 5/26/2001 5:30:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/26/2001 5:29:34 PM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 5/26/2001 5:44:31 PM EDT
Not only did the ATF lie to the NG, but they lied to the CO at Ft. Hood in order to utilize their MOUT training facilities for free. In complete violation of Title 10 Posse Comitatus Act and Military Policy. In a FOIA brief obtained by an atty in Tucson, David Hardy. ATF documents show that Koresh went shooting with men he believed to be undercover ATF agents THREE DAYS before the raid. what a crew of butchers we have as our "federal Po-lice". D.
Link Posted: 5/26/2001 5:59:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By burn: Wasnt david F#$KIN Little girls there (rape-molestation) everyone forgets about that when they hammer the ATF. I know the BATF sucks but Waco is a poor case. david was a pig and the other members of the family let him get away with it. Or was the rape thing just a story by the media..
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Even if that were true ATF has NO JURISDICTION. Jurisdiction would be the domain of the State of Texas.
Link Posted: 5/26/2001 6:03:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gun Toter: rape children, and commit felonies. which some happened to be unregistered or illegally converted machine guns (uh oh, a crime now) and hand grenades (woops, another crime) along with having sex with minors (wow, yet another crime) through religious coercion. force on the agents unlawfully (a HUGE crime).
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You have made the allegations, where is the PROOF?
Link Posted: 5/26/2001 6:06:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CassidyGT: GunToter - The ATF has never been able to produce a single shred of evidence to show that The Brach Davidians had full-auto guns or live grenades. Further, Texas Health and Human Services conducted 3 visits to the church and found NO evidence of child abuse of any kind. Also, if you have a warrant and serve it by attacking someone with full-auto fire without even knocking - then you, as an agent of Govt, deserve whatever you get. When ATF came out of that cattle-car shooting, they should all have been mown down. If they wanted Koresh, all they had to do was arrest him as he went into town - which he did several times a week. If their goal was to 'save the children', then attacking a plywood structure with full-auto fire from hi-power weapons is not the way to do it. If you want to kill American citizens - then they went about it the correct way. In short - until you actually have facts- then shut your fat mouth and stick to things you know something about.
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Thank you! If he stuck to things he knew something about he would'nt be here!
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