People and the M4???!!!

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - People and the M4???!!!

Posted: 5/19/2001 8:39:34 PM EDT

It seems to me for some reason the big rave lately is the M4. I cant really see the reason why this is on so many peoples must have list I understand its a good CQB gun but ok here is my rant. Ive read in quit a few other post that
"well its good enough for the special forces then its good enough for you/me" I got to ask is that a good enough reason to buy something? soes owning an M4 make you feel "special" if they used cotton toilet paper would you buy it to? Im not trying to flame everyone with an M4 im just wondering what kind of reason people buy the things i mean 800 for an upper? it seems a bit much. someone please explain it to me.

Posted: 5/19/2001 9:06:01 PM EDT

[#1]

Yes.

Posted: 5/19/2001 9:06:01 PM EDT

[#2]

I'm sure that if somebody collected toilet paper they would definitely try to get some that someone "special" was using. As for the price, I built my M4 for about $600.00 complete.

Posted: 5/19/2001 9:56:05 PM EDT

[#3]

Oregon is right. I much prefer the 16 in shorty.
I have a 20 in Armalite and my wife has a 16 in. Oly Arms shorty. The A/L is a better gun but the shorty is much faster handling and user friendly. I'm going to get a 16 in Bushy barrel for my Armalilte. I can't see the extra expense for the M4, but if you like it and can afford it more power to ya!

Posted: 5/19/2001 9:59:25 PM EDT

[#4]

I had one AR with a 16 inch barrel and got rid of it. That thing was just to loud & obnoxious for my taste. The muzzle blast was actually distracting to me and I just didnt enjoy it as much as the 20 inch version. I guess Im just not cut out for the latest "must have' version. The only way I will ever get another AR with a 16 inch barrel is if its a pre ban with the tele stock on it........heck.......even then I might have to throw a 20 inch barrel on it. Here I thought I was the only one who didn't want an M4.

Posted: 5/19/2001 10:02:09 PM EDT

[#5]

The M4 Looks Coooolllll!!!!!

(who cares about how a gun shoots)[;D]

Posted: 5/19/2001 10:10:25 PM EDT

[#6]

It's a fad.

Posted: 5/19/2001 10:13:15 PM EDT

[#7]

I was the one who made the special forces reference, and still don't see what your point is.

Special Forces weapons are highly tested, for wide and various uses. The average civilian would most likely never get a chance to test the range of armament that our armed forces most elite do. If the very best in our military use a particular rifle, it's not an accident.

Our special forces, along with several other countries elite units have incredible demands that they place on their guns every day. Their real world scenarios change frequently, and you can bet your ass that these units, above all others, are using the absolute finest tool for the job at hand. The M4 rifle is clearly, and regularly one of those tools.

Sure, there's a ton of great AR configurations, and people buy guns for various purposes. Personally, I view the AR as first and foremost a military caliber weapon. I have several, and by far my favorite for defense as well as shooting fun are my M4's. If I want to hit something 300 yards away, I'll reach for a longer rifle, but I seldom do that. The M4 does 85% of the job for me, and I have back up for the other 15%.

If you can't see the wisdom in following the lead of the worlds most elite soldiers that stake their lives on the weapons they choose, then nothing I could say would change your mind. To me it's quite obvious. I suppose you know something they don't?

Posted: 5/19/2001 10:15:33 PM EDT

[#8]

my ZM is handier than my M4 type Colt, and it has more novelty value but I like them all the same, I don't know if any spec ops use ZM..
[img]albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1524659&a=11537495&p=47454968&Sequence=0&res=high[/img]
[img]albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1524659&a=11537495&p=47332574&Sequence=0&res=high[/img]

Posted: 5/19/2001 10:22:34 PM EDT

[#9]

Nice rifles Duffy.

I would LOVE to have a ZM. You don't see them for sale vey often, at least I don't.

Posted: 5/19/2001 10:25:00 PM EDT

[#10]

M4 I did see one up for sale, next time I do I'll be sure to let you know.. I bought mine used from a fellow AR15 member, Bear Hunter told me about it and I couldn't drive there fast enough lol, this one has a Jewell trigger too, I'm bringing it to the Angeles shoot next month [:D]

Posted: 5/19/2001 10:33:47 PM EDT

[#11]

I was being sarcastic...... in the hands of a trained person, almost any weapon can accomplish the mission

Posted: 5/19/2001 10:37:01 PM EDT

[#12]

Personally I have never understood the too loud opinion. As long as you are wearing ear protection I don't see how being the shooter it is distracting. To me I will take the balance and maneuverability of an 16" carbine over a 20" rifle made for tactical purposes. Varmit hunting is a different. For Varmits and Marshmellows I would choose a 20" or better.

NO SLACK!

Posted: 5/19/2001 10:37:53 PM EDT

[#13]

I only got it because that is the config of the LEGP!

Posted: 5/19/2001 11:25:26 PM EDT

[#14]

you would'nt understand, its an m4 thing

Posted: 5/20/2001 12:01:01 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
I was the one who made the special forces reference, and still don't see what your point is.

Special Forces weapons are highly tested, for wide and various uses. The average civilian would most likely never get a chance to test the range of armament that our armed forces most elite do. If the very best in our military use a particular rifle, it's not an accident.

Our special forces, along with several other countries elite units have incredible demands that they place on their guns every day. Their real world scenarios change frequently, and you can bet your ass that these units, above all others, are using the absolute finest tool for the job at hand. The M4 rifle is clearly, and regularly one of those tools.

Sure, there's a ton of great AR configurations, and people buy guns for various purposes. Personally, I view the AR as first and foremost a military caliber weapon. I have several, and by far my favorite for defense as well as shooting fun are my M4's. If I want to hit something 300 yards away, I'll reach for a longer rifle, but I seldom do that. The M4 does 85% of the job for me, and I have back up for the other 15%.

If you can't see the wisdom in following the lead of the worlds most elite soldiers that stake their lives on the weapons they choose, then nothing I could say would change your mind. To me it's quite obvious. I suppose you know something they don't?

View Quote

I'm not real familiar with the M4. To me it just looks like a "shorty" with the ugly groove in the barrel for the M203. Maybe the handguards are better? Is there some mechanical difference that makes it so great that non-grenade-shooters would benefit from it? What's so special about it?

Posted: 5/20/2001 2:54:46 AM EDT

[#16]

The only advantage that I find attractive is the improved angle on the feed ramps. Other than that it's basically the same as any other AR15 carbine. I'm a fan of the carbine configuration for the AR. Best compromise of handiness/ballistic performance for me . If I'm gonna need more range, I 'll go for a full length rifle in .308(AR10 or SR25). Unless I win the lotto, then it will be a Barrett (plus the .308,and a few more AR's, and a few more handguns,shotguns, lots'o'ammo,lots'o'mags....).[:D]

Posted: 5/20/2001 3:22:50 AM EDT

[#17]

DuffyPoo - You shameless Show off [;)]

Posted: 5/20/2001 5:15:18 AM EDT

[#18]

Guys, I've had a pre-ban M4 for a couple of years now. The reason I got it was the low profile and to eventually mount a M203. Well it took a really really long time to do the DD paperwork, but it finally paid off. The M4 with a M203 mounted is the COOLLEST looking gun. It is a little heavy but still handles good.

Posted: 5/20/2001 5:46:32 AM EDT

[#19]

From what I see, the M4 uppers are just carbine uppers with modifications/improvements targeted for full Auto and Burst fire. I.E. feedramp modifications for more reliable full auto feeding and double insulated handguards for when the barrel gets hot in full auto/burst fire. I have no problem with them at all however, for my needs I much prefer the COLT 6721 Tactical Carbine upper. The 6721 has the M-4 mods but you lose the stepped 203 barrel which I personally don't like and will never use. What you gain is a full 16" H-BAR (more heat dissipation and looks better to me) with the more versatile 1/9 twist. Of course you still get the A2 flash suppressor and the bayo lug as well. The best thing is that your looking at a lot lower pricetag. It's all about supply and demand, everybody is jumping on the M-4 bandwagon so the prices for M-4 uppers are sky high. I landed my 6721 complete upper NIB with bolt and carrier, 2/20rd COLT mags, removable carryhandle and paperwork for $665.00. Im putting the upper on a Pre-Ban Eagle arms lower so it should be a squared away rig. Just my $.02 guys.

O3's KILL Out!!! [sniper]

Posted: 5/20/2001 5:56:29 AM EDT

[#20]

4,
The M4 is the issued weapon of SF, it used to be the CAR-15. The keyholing sweetie with the 1:14 twist.

In Vn era grunt units? Many officers carried CAR-15's, because usually when they needed a weapon? The enemy was closer than normal so the short barrel length was not a range issue.

Same with recce and sf teams their skill sets are steath, combat will usually be closer than line companies and with a numerically superior force.. Many SFARTEC training scenarios are based on being up close and personal.

Their needs are narrower than regular infrantry, a different mission..
Hi levels of firepower utilized to break off close contact with a numerically superior force. Purpose of the difference in handguard insulation that 03skill mentioned.

Looking at the combat load of sf units also show the differences.
Typically line dogs do not carry PDM's (Vn era was the M14 toe poppers or the new pyramid spider web PDM's), timer and trip M18's, etc.

Of interest?? SF is currently evaluating a HB M4, ammo that uses a faster burning powder that attain M-16 velocities in M4 barrel length, a 12 ga that mounts on the rails for CQB useage etc. Also evaluating the 300 for SOTIC training..

There is a distinct difference between mission requirements and the equipment shows it.

Posted: 5/20/2001 5:57:55 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
I'm sure that if somebody collected toilet paper they would definitely try to get some that someone "special" was using. As for the price, I built my M4 for about $600.00 complete.

View Quote

When did you build it for 600.00? And if it was recently, where did you get the parts?

Posted: 5/20/2001 6:02:21 AM EDT

[#22]

There's nothing too special about the M-4 in my eyes. I don't own a grenade launcher (yet) so that's no biggie. What I do like is the lighter shorter barrel and the flat-top mounted Aimpoint M. The collaspable stock isn't that important either as it seems to always find its way to the same lenght each time. I don't even retract it in storage as it then doesn't meet the rifle rack notches then. Last, the fat M-4 hardguards are just too thick for me.

Posted: 5/20/2001 6:12:06 AM EDT

[#23]

Simple answer. with the stock collapsed and double sized handguards it is a truly bada$$ looking weapon. With a good M203 imitation and the handguards to match it is truly amazing. Pull that out to show your friends and everybody goes.... wow!

Posted: 5/20/2001 8:07:32 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

DuffyPoo - You shameless Show off [;)]

View Quote

Oh the shame of it....[8)] LOL, just trying to demonstrate the compactness of the ZM [:)]

Posted: 5/20/2001 8:26:10 AM EDT

[#25]

The M4 has several large differences from regular carbines.
-That "silly little groove" is also complimented by the skinny barrel under the handguards to save weight.
-The barrel is 14.5" long allowing you to actually mount and use a bayonet which a 16" CAR-15 won't.
-The handguards are made of a better material platic than those cheap carbine jobs, have double heat shields that WAY better protect your hand, and are fatter giving a better grip, similar to the size of the full length handguards.
-The upper is a flattop, not an A1 or A2 style. This allows you to mount all sorts of cool gee-whiz optics, sights, lazers, etc. This lets you modify the weapon for each individual task, instead of getting a completely different upper or rifle.

And also, M4 uppers cost no more than regular uppers. If they do then the price is just jacked up, because it does not cost more to manufacture. Bushmaster sells the M4 barrel w/receiver and carbine handguards for $385, same price as the 20", 16", A2 and flattop uppers.

Posted: 5/20/2001 9:14:31 AM EDT

[#26]

M4Guy
Civilian "CAR"-15 or the CAR-15??

Posted: 5/20/2001 9:32:37 AM EDT

[#27]

Until very recently Bushmaster did not offer a LW profile 16" Brl. Some of us prefer light 6 pound carbines instead of 11 pound Hbars. The M4-type Brl was the lightest Brl in Bushmasters catalog.

Posted: 5/20/2001 3:47:25 PM EDT

[#28]

It kinda reminds me of the 70's and platform shoes.[8D]

Posted: 5/20/2001 3:57:31 PM EDT

[#29]

For everyone who wants to point out that the M4 is used by SF, you may want to do some checking on exactly what the SF mission is...... they value lightness over effective range because their primary mission is to sneak behind enemy lines and train partisans, not to close and kill. Most of thier engagements would be to quickly break contact and move out. On operational missions they are more likely to be using the weapons that the partisains have available to them in order to train them better and blend in.

Posted: 5/20/2001 7:47:12 PM EDT

[#30]

For the individual limited to only one AR, I think they would be best served by a fullsize 20" USGI AR type. It truly is the Jack-of-all-trades AR15. However, once you get beyond that first one, I further believe that a carbine is an excellent choice, too, and the 14.5" M4 is simply the handiest, most compact carbine available to us with the least hassle.

The M4 is easier to stow than a full size 20", it is easier to deploy and get into action with, it balances and handles better to me, the 4 position stock allows me to better the fit the weapon to myself when wearing heavier clothing in the cold, the M4 type handguards fill my mitts better and offer superior heat protection, the compact nature of the gun makes it easier to conceal, and the loses in velocity are, in my opinion, negligible. I doubt very much that any of it's critics would be willing to stand 200 meters downrange and allow themselves to be shot with one to display how ineffective it is.

Posted: 5/20/2001 8:00:49 PM EDT

[#31]

Roger on the light weight, 16" lightweight barrels are hard to come by, unless you want to buy Colt [puke]
Seriously a 16" light barrel w/a full buttstock works just as well, and is more partical to boot.....the cleaning kit goes everywhere the rifle does.
those preban M4s do look cool, and if you're willing to spend money for looks, go ahead
a 20" light barrel with a 1/9 twist would be better yet, if available. [uzi]

Posted: 5/20/2001 8:10:51 PM EDT

[#32]

Hey, if you want it and can afford it why not have it. I dont have to own a corvette because a pinto would get me there but I want it.[:D]

Posted: 5/21/2001 3:46:43 AM EDT

[#33]

Anyone hear have a M203. And I'm not talking about the 37mm crap you see. I want to know if anybody has the 40mm?

Posted: 5/21/2001 4:07:22 AM EDT

[#34]

The neat thing about the AR15 is that it's truly modular. You can swap parts and make the same gun into just about every configuration (allowing for pre- & post-ban garbage laws). If you like the M4 barrel, buy one & swap it in. Want a 24" bull with optics? Fine. Just screw it in. Want to spend a little extra & do it with push pins? That's fine too. Really like the little feed ramp cuts? Five minutes with Mr. Dremel and they're yours. Just be gentle, that's about the only irreversible change. Different stocks? Grips? Handguards? Match sights? Free floated barrels? Great fun. With one upper & one lower, you could make about a zillion different combinations. All it takes is $. You can be John Wayne or Benny Benchrest, all with the same gun.

I love it.
Norm

Posted: 5/21/2001 11:59:16 AM EDT

[#35]

M203 launcher, sure we have one. We also have a few M4s to slab it on. A batch M16A2s also tomorrow.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - People and the M4???!!!

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