knife VS gun - AR15.COM

Posted: 5/18/2001 7:05:34 AM EDT

i work in LE and we came across an issuse in a small town in oklahoma it didnt make the local paper and is full of rumor but what would you have done... Bad guy with knife is pulled over by local deputy. deputy tells bad guy drop the knife. bad guy refuses deputy shoots bad guy. bad guy dies. department says clean shoot. family of dead bad guy sue officer stating he had a knife on his person why didnt he draw his knife not his gun and ingage in a fair fight.. family wins in court. dont ask me how its in appeal but what kinda of judge would do this.. what whould you do?

Posted: 5/18/2001 7:07:50 AM EDT

[#1]

I would agree with the courts decision unless the man was trying to attack the officer. A man standing with a knife is no threat to an officer with a gun.

Posted: 5/18/2001 7:08:21 AM EDT

[#2]

get an independent expert to explain the 21 foot rule

Posted: 5/18/2001 7:08:23 AM EDT

[#3]

So if the perp pulls out a spear the officer is expected to pull his? What would I do? Fire the department's lawyer. This is a simple case, deadly force requires deadly force. Next case.

Posted: 5/18/2001 7:08:46 AM EDT

[#4]

Shoot. Take no chances.

Posted: 5/18/2001 7:12:42 AM EDT

[#5]

Does anyone have more details on this story? What town, when did it happen? Perhaps a link to the story...

I'd like to find out more about this. I can't believe they found the officer liable.

Posted: 5/18/2001 7:12:59 AM EDT

[#6]

Unreal. So the jury's statement is that they would like to have the kind of person who goes around pulling a knife on a police officer out on the street. This is what happens when cousins marry repeatedly.

Posted: 5/18/2001 7:17:37 AM EDT

[#7]

the town pop is less than 250 Elmor OK
court was judge only not jury OK can be funny that way. and by OK Law if i feel im in fear of my life than i can shoot. like i said i dont know all the history its a lot of rumors confided by more rumors

Posted: 5/18/2001 7:18:29 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Unreal.This is what happens when cousins marry repeatedly.

View Quote

LMAO [:D]

Posted: 5/18/2001 7:30:47 AM EDT

[#9]

Well I live in a Military Town, so I am going to my chief and ask for a BlackHawk, just in case some one pulls one on me. [:D]

The 21 foot rule applies. Plus, a police officer is allowed to escalate to a weapon level greater than the potential threat. Thus, perp draws knife, officer gun.

Any reasonable attorney could defend this. I agree fire the city/county attorney...this should be won on appeal. Can't believe the local/county/state paper wouldn't pick up on this one!

Posted: 5/18/2001 7:32:56 AM EDT

[#10]

Bad guy broke the first rule: Never bring a knife to a gun fight!

Posted: 5/18/2001 7:37:09 AM EDT

[#11]

also broke second rule if told to put knife down do ti and do it fast. or BLAMO

Posted: 5/18/2001 7:48:27 AM EDT

[#12]

I guess it would have made all the whiners feel better if the bad guy had cut the officer up before he was shot. That would make it all right, eh?

Total BS.

However, with no real detail, I can think of some real problems with this case. This would make the officer culpable for example, if (as others have suggested) the knife wielder was just sitting or standing there and made no threat toward the officer. (ie: the guy stands still with his arms folded and refuses to move + officer shoots = lawsuit.) If the officer had cover and could get distance while the guy stood there, then he should have done so and then called for help and had a nice little standoff until the bad guy collapsed from lack of food/water/sleep or someone brought in the less then lethal weapons. "Hey Joe, you still got that dog?" [:D]

Posted: 5/18/2001 7:49:34 AM EDT

[#13]

Absolutely rediculous, I have knifes that I can throw very accurately up to 40-50 feet. Cops are not there to engage in fair fights, they need to keep the upper hand if possible. If a burglar was in my home with a knife, the last thing I would give this bozo is a fair fight, I would drop him like a bad habit with one of my guns.
One of my LE buddies also got into a situation similar to this. To make a long story short, my cop buddy and his partner are called to check out a house, they find the perp hiding in a bedroom closet. They tell him to come out, and he does, with a knife in his hand. Refuses to drop the knife and takes a step in their direction. Both cops blast away into the perp, my buddy carries a glock 9mm, his partner has a S&W 9mm. Partner shoots 8 times, not a single hit, my friend fires 12 times and hits the perp 6 times. Perp goes down but takes 4 days to die. All this takes place in a small bedroom with shooting under 10 feet. It's a good shoot and the perp (homeless guy) has no family so no lawsuit. My friend is totally disgusted with his partner though and makes him shoot with us very weekend to improve his shooting skills.

Posted: 5/18/2001 8:55:49 AM EDT

[#14]

Clean shoot.

Posted: 5/18/2001 8:57:41 AM EDT

[#15]

teach me to ask a stupid question

Posted: 5/18/2001 10:31:53 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
. Plus, a police officer is allowed to escalate to a weapon level greater than the potential threat. Thus, perp draws knife, officer gun.

View Quote

I agrere with DocSwat

My wife was taught the same thing while working for the State of WV's Maximum Security prison. Correctional employees are allowed to go up one level to the current threat level.

She is with the Federal Government now and I do not know if they hold the same principles of as the state does regarding use of force.

Posted: 5/18/2001 10:35:22 AM EDT

[#17]

The Federal Government has slightly different rules...if she pulls out a baby you can shoot her.

Posted: 5/18/2001 11:09:17 AM EDT

[#18]

mace, pepper spray, run like hell......

Posted: 5/18/2001 11:43:02 AM EDT

[#19]

I'd like to see the official story. Unfortunately, the majority of cops nowadays think a badge is a license to kill and wait for such a scenerio so they can get their fill of blood.

Posted: 5/18/2001 11:49:47 AM EDT

[#20]

I agree with yorec, that there is no reason to shoot unless the suspect is making furtive movements. Call for backup and a fire truck, and then torture him cold water, mace, and beanbags until he finally surrenders.

I trained in martial arts for many years, and a guy with a knife can be very dangerous. The office should keep his distance and contain the situation. The 21-foot rule seems applicable, and without more details it is hard to say if this was a righteous shoot.

Posted: 5/18/2001 12:15:45 PM EDT

[#21]

That is what happens when the "Village Idiot" shows up at a gun fight with a cotton pickin' knife.[:D] Bunch of in-breeds!
Lynn [uzi]

Posted: 5/18/2001 12:56:16 PM EDT

[#22]

Jury were morons and don't understand the subject matter.

Cop should have hired a better expert.

A cop isn't obligated to a "fair fight". The cop isn't the lawbreaker, the knife wielder is.

A knife is considered a deadly weapon. So is a gun. Deadly weapon -vs- deadly weapon.

Posted: 5/18/2001 1:13:34 PM EDT

[#23]

Whoa Mejames, I'm not saying the cop shouldn't have shot. I'm am saying there isn't enough detail to know from the story. I will have to assume the guy made some sort of threatening movement and/or action - then he deserved what he got. But you know what Assuming gets ya...

Posted: 5/18/2001 1:17:09 PM EDT

[#24]

dont bring a knife to a gunfight!

Posted: 5/18/2001 2:02:39 PM EDT

[#25]

If some idiot pulls a knife on me or one of my loved ones and A) is reasonably close or B) is not very close, but steps towards me, the idiot dies.

radioman

Posted: 5/18/2001 2:29:33 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
dont bring a knife to a gunfight!

View Quote

as this case perfictally demonstrates.

Posted: 5/18/2001 6:17:37 PM EDT

[#27]

Its not a contest! drop the dude!

Posted: 5/18/2001 6:21:47 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

... Bad guy with knife is pulled over by local deputy. deputy tells bad guy drop the knife. bad guy refuses deputy shoots bad guy....

View Quote

Where was the bad guy during this whole scenerio? Was he seated in the car? Was he "standing" outside the vehicle and in a position to "close the distance" and was he displaying the knife in a threatening manner?

If he is seated in the car and there is no immediate threat - no shoot.

If he is out and assuming a threatening position or demeanor and the officer feels that he has no alternative - shoot to kill.

....family of dead bad guy sue officer stating he had a knife on his person why didnt he draw his knife not his gun and ingage in a fair fight.. family wins in court....

View Quote

If the judge ruled in favor of the family and this is the only charge "it wasn't a fair fight cause the bad guy didn't have a gun..." - he should be retired quickly. Now if there were other charges or extenuating circumstances - that "may" be different story.

[sniper]
[b]The Sniper

Posted: 5/18/2001 8:25:05 PM EDT

[#29]

I helped write my Departments Use Of Deadly Force Policy. Most will be the same.

There are 3 elements that must be met before use of deadly force (as opposed to use of force) is justified.
1. Ability
2. Opportunity
3. Jepoardy

Ability means just that. A person seated in a car with a knife has no opportunity if you are 30 - 40 feet away (even if he threw it at you it wouldn't get you)

Opportunity means he is close enough to use the knife/weapon on you.

Jepoardy means he has either stated a threat or is moving in a threatening manner - like moving towards you/your partner/other citizen.

If any of the three are not there you are not justified.
It is not as complex as it sounds.
You respond to a suspecious person call. Arrive. A male is standing in the middle of the road with a knife. You stop 50 feet from him and exit your car. He begins screaming death threats at you and takes off in a run straight at you.
All elements have been met.
BANG!

It would help if the facts around the incident were known.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - knife VS gun

General » General Discussion

Warning

Confirm Action

About AR15.COM

Stay Connected

Newsletter

Contact Us