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Posted: 6/26/2017 6:19:27 PM EDT
[#1]
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Is that supposed to be informative? I am a civil attorney. I know how civil court works. That's a non sequitur. We were discussing how ROBBERY and RAPE are not parallels for purposes of resisting. Because people consent to sex with strangers all the time, but people don't consent to robbery. This is your dance, you're the one claiming they are similar for purposes of evaluating resisting or requirements to resist. So why are we now talking about what happens in civil court? Robbery is the subject. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 6:19:56 PM EDT
[#2]
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Agreed. Better 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man go to prison. In a he said/she said (or he said/he said, or she said/she said), burden of proof is on the accuser, plain and simple. And there is no proof. No proof = no case. I doubt she was lying, as she later killed herself over it, but we don't (or shouldn't) put people in jail based on a story like that. This is why I often say that women lie about these type events and you should NEVER assume that the woman is telling the truth without proof. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 6:20:02 PM EDT
[#3]
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I don't think I can agree to that. Rape is just too serious. I heard a story of a college student claiming that sex was rape because she stopped participating and claim the guy should have noticed and stopped. Didn't say 'stop', 'get off me' nothin'. Just quit being active. I'm not ready to send somebody to prison for a situation like that. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 6:22:41 PM EDT
[#4]
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So there's no way to distinguish between conscious and unconscious, and have separate laws spelling out that an unconscious person cannot consent? Because we already have that in many jurisdictions. We are talking about someone who was, by her own account, awake and aware, and able to move about under her own power. So why are we talking about roofies? A conscious person who does not consent to sex needs to tell the other person they do not consent. They don't need to fight to the death or show signs of injury, but it needs to be made clear there is no consent. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 6:22:41 PM EDT
[#5]
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Rape is to sex as robbery/theft is to a transfer of funds. It's the illegal form of something. If someone takes your property should you be required to resist for it to be a crime? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Is that supposed to be informative? I am a civil attorney. I know how civil court works. That's a non sequitur. We were discussing how ROBBERY and RAPE are not parallels for purposes of resisting. Because people consent to sex with strangers all the time, but people don't consent to robbery. This is your dance, you're the one claiming they are similar for purposes of evaluating resisting or requirements to resist. So why are we now talking about what happens in civil court? Robbery is the subject. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 6:24:28 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, it isn't. We've been through this. People consent to sex, they never consent to robbery. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 6:28:58 PM EDT
[#7]
Non-consent should consist of the minumum of blading at 45° and yelling "YOU WILL NOT TOUCH MY BOOBIES! YOU WILL NOT FUCK ME!" and then pee on their foot to establish dominance.
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Posted: 6/26/2017 6:31:12 PM EDT
[#8]
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What would be wrong with a standard that someone act reasonably in determjnjng whether the other party consents? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So there's no way to distinguish between conscious and unconscious, and have separate laws spelling out that an unconscious person cannot consent? Because we already have that in many jurisdictions. We are talking about someone who was, by her own account, awake and aware, and able to move about under her own power. So why are we talking about roofies? A conscious person who does not consent to sex needs to tell the other person they do not consent. They don't need to fight to the death or show signs of injury, but it needs to be made clear there is no consent. If a person says I don't want to have sex after walking into a bedroom after being told, "I want to have sex, go into my bedroom", then is led to the bed in that room, it gets muddy. Particularly when there's no force or weapon. He pulls a knife, I'm done analyzing it. She doesn't even need to say no. But this was just some dude at his house, telling her what he wanted. "No" is fine, but it needs to be said, and it needs to be clearly said. Not "no" at 930 followed by two hours of making out and tickle slap. As I said, thirty years ago I got a polite but clear "I don't want to do that" from a young woman. I respected that. I think I surprised her when I rolled over and went to sleep. I was awakened by her aggressively....doing the opposite of no. Did I rape her? She said no. She never said yes. To remove all doubt, NOTHING happened. I never needed head games like someone who can't decide what they want. This was even before Clarence Thomas, but I wasn't going to take any chances. I left and went to bed in another room. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 6:39:36 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Robbery doesn't work as an analogy, because people don't consent to be robbed. People DO hook up and have sex, willingly, all the time, with what amount to strangers. People have sex, and people rape/get raped. The ONLY difference is consent, and the ONLY way to decide if there was consent is "what would a reasonable person in that situation think?" Therefore, there has to be unequivocal words or action that communicate that there is no consent. 
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Posted: 6/26/2017 6:40:21 PM EDT
[#10]
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So there's no way to distinguish between conscious and unconscious, and have separate laws spelling out that an unconscious person cannot consent? Because we already have that in many jurisdictions. We are talking about someone who was, by her own account, awake and aware, and able to move about under her own power. So why are we talking about roofies? A conscious person who does not consent to sex needs to tell the other person they do not consent. They don't need to fight to the death or show signs of injury, but it needs to be made clear there is no consent. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I would. Though I wouldn't require it. Because we already have that in many jurisdictions. We are talking about someone who was, by her own account, awake and aware, and able to move about under her own power. So why are we talking about roofies? A conscious person who does not consent to sex needs to tell the other person they do not consent. They don't need to fight to the death or show signs of injury, but it needs to be made clear there is no consent. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 7:34:23 PM EDT
[#11]
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I'm well aware of the fact that the person in this case was conscious. I am also aware that there are tangential conversations occurring in this thread, spawned by the story but theorizing about slightly different circumstances and why a blanket ruling that a victim must resist is a silly position that does not take into account certain variables. You may or may not be aware of these tangential conversations, or be able to distinguish that we are discussing the merits or lack thereof wrt a blanket ruling. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I would. Though I wouldn't require it. Because we already have that in many jurisdictions. We are talking about someone who was, by her own account, awake and aware, and able to move about under her own power. So why are we talking about roofies? A conscious person who does not consent to sex needs to tell the other person they do not consent. They don't need to fight to the death or show signs of injury, but it needs to be made clear there is no consent. The person you directly responded to was talking about a conscious person, too. See that part where she was participating, then stopped participating? So, no, you weren't responding to a tangential conversation, you were playing gotcha in a conversation where a conscious person was being discussed. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 7:36:19 PM EDT
[#12]
Sounds like they are trying to shift the burden of proof even further to the Accused in Rape Accusations (IE prove your innocence).
I propose that we make false accusations punishable by the same sentence that the falsely accused faced if convicted. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 7:52:26 PM EDT
[#13]
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By that measure, a person could be roofied and fucked, but no rape happened. You ok with getting roofied and buttsexed by the Crimson Tide offensive line? Not rape if you don't at least say no. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 7:55:22 PM EDT
[#14]
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Would a woman falsely accuse a rich man of rape for a potential civil payout of millions of dollars? naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah Jay |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 8:00:48 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Uh, smugness totally unwarranted. The person you directly responded to was talking about a conscious person, too. See that part where she was participating, then stopped participating? So, no, you weren't responding to a tangential conversation, you were playing gotcha in a conversation where a conscious person was being discussed.
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Posted: 6/26/2017 8:02:15 PM EDT
[#16]
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So what you're telling me is that if she's too drunk to resist, it's not rape. If her own drinking, of her own free will, lowers her own inhibitions and causes her own loss of good judgement, that is all on her. Jay |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 8:09:24 PM EDT
[#17]
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The difference between fucking and rape is consent. The difference between a transfer of goods or money and theft or robbery is consent. Someone can not want to have sex with someone but if they never inform the other person in some way, then it's still not rape even if the person didn't want to have sex. Sex with an unconscious person is rape under the vast majority of conditions but I have seen enough rapes as well as "rapes" that I would need some additional evidence other than a person telling me they were unconscious. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 8:56:54 PM EDT
[#18]
I just skimmed through this, but if I got it correctly, there were no charges against the man, all the police officers got home safely, and the woman is dead. As rape cases go, doesn't get much better than that.
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Posted: 6/26/2017 9:08:02 PM EDT
[#19]
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I just skimmed through this, but if I got it correctly, there were no charges against the man, all the police officers got home safely, and the woman is dead. As rape cases go, doesn't get much better than that. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 9:18:44 PM EDT
[#20]
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Facts? Who needs facts? Facts are sexist....and racist too. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I just skimmed through this, but if I got it correctly, there were no charges against the man, all the police officers got home safely, and the woman is dead. As rape cases go, doesn't get much better than that. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 10:38:57 PM EDT
[#21]
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In America the male is usually assumed to be guilty just based upon an allegation. If 80% of these allegations are lies, that is a lot of men who are screwed even if never convicted. As stated before...read about the Duke lacrosse team. This is why I We can all agree that people are capable of lying about such things, and it's best to wait and investigate first. Except the way you phrase it, it's singled out to only WOMEN lie, not people lie. This rich guy who was accused, could it be possible that he lied? Did Brock Turner lie? |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 11:13:30 PM EDT
[#22]
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I just skimmed through this, but if I got it correctly, there were no charges against the man, all the police officers got home safely, and the woman is dead. As rape cases go, doesn't get much better than that.  Matlock Closing / Viacom Productions (1990) |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 11:24:53 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryMy penultimate love had a blue seersucker suit like Matlock wore.
Looked quite dashing in it, too, I thought. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 11:33:29 PM EDT
[#24]
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If she told him that she didn't want to have sex with him (she says she told him), and he continued, then it's rape. It also sounds like the police were really bending over backwards to not file charges. She did go to the police right away. This isn't something where she waited years. On one hand, maybe she wanted a payout. On the other hand, he's so rich and powerful and used to getting his way, maybe he is the type to ignore a "no." And, how many gold-diggers commit suicide after their plans are thwarted? It seems she couldn't live with the unjustice of it all. At least that's what it LOOKS like. My thoughts exactly... plus rape's legal definition shouldn't require physical resistance. That is bullshit. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 11:35:17 PM EDT
[#25]
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"Often"? How about ALWAYS. This is something you post in each thread about rape. And why didn't you quote Naamah last time we had this "Women Lie" conversation, when she said pretty much this same thing (about better a hundred men go free), instead of implying that we're both evil feminazis who hope that men are falsely accused? We can all agree that people are capable of lying about such things, and it's best to wait and investigate first. Except the way you phrase it, it's singled out to only WOMEN lie, not people lie. This rich guy who was accused, could it be possible that he lied? Did Brock Turner lie? How often do men claim to be raped by a woman? How many of those times are lies? Does society automatically assume that the man is telling the truth? |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 11:36:46 PM EDT
[#26]
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In the story she says that she "knew of him" before they met. She had a her cellphone with her the whole time. Why didn't she call a friend, a cab or 911? |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 11:37:39 PM EDT
[#27]
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Sounds like a "he said, she said case." I'm not saying she's lying but what do people expect to happen in cases like that? |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 11:52:54 PM EDT
[#28]
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I'll admit I haven't looked at the exact statutes, but you're telling me that having sex with a drunk passed out chick is kosher in Alabama? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I must be missing something here. The girl in this story was most certainly not too drunk to resist. She apparently was able to comprehend him telling her to go to his bedroom, which she then did under her own power (willingly, it would seem, based on her story). Afterwards, she jumped out of a second story window, climbed back in again, then jumped out a second time. I haven't seen anyone claim that raping a passed out/nearly passed out chick is cool, so I'm not sure where you're getting that. In this case she sober is enough to know what was going and admits she consented to sex so she could go back to the party/home. Remember no threats, no weapons, did not physically attack her. She came to his bed for the purpose of having sex. She had her cell phone with her the entire time and did not try to call anyone to "help" her nor call 911. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 11:54:27 PM EDT
[#29]
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NC just passed a law: once it's in, you're good to go. 
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Posted: 6/27/2017 12:04:29 AM EDT
[#30]
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Archaic?!? Its a slippery slope to assume guilty before proven innocent or allow women to scream rape under any circumstance. Oops to late, thats already happened. Im sure she was a very stable and innocent woman as opposed to the very rich and $ liable dude. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Under Alabama’s archaic rape law, victims must prove they “earnestly” resisted their attackers Archaic?!? Its a slippery slope to assume guilty before proven innocent or allow women to scream rape under any circumstance. Oops to late, thats already happened. Im sure she was a very stable and innocent woman as opposed to the very rich and $ liable dude. I think she consented to sex then when he passed out and was not able to take her home, no taxi service/uber 20 minutes from Tuscaloosa, her last resort was to finally call a friend to come get her. Embarrassed she just fucked a guy she had just met and got into a mess, she told her friend she was taken there and raped. She now has to own that story. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 12:05:29 AM EDT
[#31]
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Maybe not having the DA file felony charges against her to pressure her to drop her civil suit? |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 12:08:05 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sounds like they are trying to shift the burden of proof even further to the Accused in Rape Accusations (IE prove your innocence). I propose that we make false accusations punishable by the same sentence that the falsely accused faced if convicted. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 12:11:16 AM EDT
[#33]
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Most rapes aren't committed by strangers, but people who the victim is previously acquainted with Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In the story she says that she "knew of him" before they met. She had a her cellphone with her the whole time. Why didn't she call a friend, a cab or 911? From what I can tell she had heard of him but met him on this particular night. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 12:14:59 AM EDT
[#34]
What exactly do they want changed?
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Posted: 6/27/2017 12:15:03 AM EDT
[#35]
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Most rapes aren't committed by strangers, but people who the victim is previously acquainted with Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In the story she says that she "knew of him" before they met. She had a her cellphone with her the whole time. Why didn't she call a friend, a cab or 911? Quoted:
The 30,000 feet view, I think she was enamored by a rich guy she had heard about. She met him, had some fun, then went back to his place. I think she consented to sex then when he passed out and was not able to take her home, no taxi service/uber 20 minutes from Tuscaloosa, her last resort was to finally call a friend to come get her. Embarrassed she just fucked a guy she had just met and got into a mess, she told her friend she was taken there and raped. She now has to own that story. Quoted:
Will never happen. The old prevents folks from making claims in fear of being punished. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 12:15:45 AM EDT
[#36]
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What exactly do they want changed? The presumption of innocence, of course. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 12:20:22 AM EDT
[#37]
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The 3rd wave feminists? The presumption of innocence, of course. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What exactly do they want changed? The presumption of innocence, of course. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 12:21:51 AM EDT
[#38]
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Get over your femi-nazi hatred of men. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Get over your femi-nazi hatred of men. How often do men claim to be raped by a woman? How many of those times are lies?
Does society automatically assume that the man is telling the truth? But no, you just can never manage to do that. Naamah posted these questions before, which you have steadfastly refused to answer. So I'm going to repeat them again, since you obviously have issues with women and what constitutes rape: 1. Do you think all rapists should go free since "women lie"? 2. What constitutes rape in your mind's eye? Does such a thing even exist, or is it all lies? 3. What is your threshold for determining that a woman is lying about being raped? 4, If a woman is in a drugged stupor, can she be raped? For example, say your wife or daughter was in the hospital and was given Ambien and Valium to help her sleep, if a nurse or tech or respiratory therapist came in and had sex with her while she was passed out, was she raped? |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 12:28:19 AM EDT
[#39]
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I would agree with that, if it's "you are found to be LYING." Just because someone did a crime, doesn't mean they'll be convicted. It's a pretty high standard to live up to—to file a complaint with 100% certainty that there will be a conviction, and if you're wrong, you end up footing the bill or going to jail. How would you like that to be the standard for filing a complaint about a theft or some sort of assault? If it turns out the accused is not convicted, the victim goes to jail instead? Uh, no. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 12:28:38 AM EDT
[#40]
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I don't mean "why didn't you tear his face off", I mean tell him so that any person would understand you're not just saying that, you don't want to do it. The law absolutely should require enough vocal and or physical resistance that it's clear to both she means "no". We are talking about people going to prison. He told her to go to his bedroom, and she walked in. She was sending mixed signals, particularly when both were drunk. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I will need to see her psych records before I buy that anything in particular "drove" her to suicide. Also, what's wrong with requiring a woman to forcefully tell a man no? Now obviously a guy might proceed thinking she's ok with it and she's just a boring lay but either way the law shouldn't require resistance. The law absolutely should require enough vocal and or physical resistance that it's clear to both she means "no". We are talking about people going to prison. He told her to go to his bedroom, and she walked in. She was sending mixed signals, particularly when both were drunk. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 12:36:09 AM EDT
[#41]
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Lol no wonder y'all have more rapes than the academies. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I will need to see her psych records before I buy that anything in particular "drove" her to suicide. Also, what's wrong with requiring a woman to forcefully tell a man no? Now obviously a guy might proceed thinking she's ok with it and she's just a boring lay but either way the law shouldn't require resistance. The law absolutely should require enough vocal and or physical resistance that it's clear to both she means "no". We are talking about people going to prison. He told her to go to his bedroom, and she walked in. She was sending mixed signals, particularly when both were drunk. All male, by the way, while i was there. Got anything to back up that claim? What EXACTLY do you think about having the female either say "no" or take actions that say "no" says i condone rape? What do you disagree with, modern, white knight man? What EXACTLY do you disagree with? Lol indeed. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 12:43:43 AM EDT
[#42]
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I hate rape. When i was a child Rape destroyed my family (I was not the direct victim a sibling was.) Rapes do happen. In my experience (this is just my own personal observations) as a Police officer the majority of reported rapes were fake. Women making claims on a guy when he was at work, out of town, rock solid alibi's for date and time the "Rape" took place. This makes it so much the harder to prosecute real rapes. It also makes most cops look at all rapes as fakes. I never let that happen I always looked at each one as if it was real. I was shocked at the amount that were not real. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 12:47:10 AM EDT
[#43]
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By that measure, a person could be roofied and fucked, but no rape happened. You ok with getting roofied and buttsexed by the Crimson Tide offensive line? Not rape if you don't at least say no. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I would. Though I wouldn't require it. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 1:23:24 AM EDT
[#44]
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Given the amount of damage that is caused to someone for even being accused of being a rapist, if it turns out that the allegations were fake then there absolutely should be money paid in damages and distress. Remember the poor security guard who was accused of planting the bomb at the Atlanta Olympics? |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 1:28:25 AM EDT
[#45]
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Lol? Zero rapes when i was there, kiddo. None. All male, by the way, while i was there. Got anything to back up that claim? What EXACTLY do you think about having the female either say "no" or take actions that say "no" says i condone rape? What do you disagree with, modern, white knight man? What EXACTLY do you disagree with? Lol indeed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I will need to see her psych records before I buy that anything in particular "drove" her to suicide. Also, what's wrong with requiring a woman to forcefully tell a man no? Now obviously a guy might proceed thinking she's ok with it and she's just a boring lay but either way the law shouldn't require resistance. The law absolutely should require enough vocal and or physical resistance that it's clear to both she means "no". We are talking about people going to prison. He told her to go to his bedroom, and she walked in. She was sending mixed signals, particularly when both were drunk. All male, by the way, while i was there. Got anything to back up that claim? What EXACTLY do you think about having the female either say "no" or take actions that say "no" says i condone rape? What do you disagree with, modern, white knight man? What EXACTLY do you disagree with? Lol indeed. And how would you know if anyone got raped? Not like there was anyone to tell. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 1:54:09 AM EDT
[#46]
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Sorry I was incorrect. The citadel is the one one that has had gay child rape in addition to the standard gay rape of the pre-gender mixed institutions. And how would you know if anyone got raped? Not like there was anyone to tell. 
again |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 2:13:01 AM EDT
[#47]
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Sorry I was incorrect. The citadel is the one one that has had gay child rape in addition to the standard gay rape of the pre-gender mixed institutions. And how would you know if anyone got raped? Not like there was anyone to tell. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I will need to see her psych records before I buy that anything in particular "drove" her to suicide. Also, what's wrong with requiring a woman to forcefully tell a man no? Now obviously a guy might proceed thinking she's ok with it and she's just a boring lay but either way the law shouldn't require resistance. The law absolutely should require enough vocal and or physical resistance that it's clear to both she means "no". We are talking about people going to prison. He told her to go to his bedroom, and she walked in. She was sending mixed signals, particularly when both were drunk. All male, by the way, while i was there. Got anything to back up that claim? What EXACTLY do you think about having the female either say "no" or take actions that say "no" says i condone rape? What do you disagree with, modern, white knight man? What EXACTLY do you disagree with? Lol indeed. And how would you know if anyone got raped? Not like there was anyone to tell. How would I know? The question, blow hard, is how would YOU know? |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 8:05:50 AM EDT
[#48]
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There needs to be consequences, criminal consequences, for deliberately falsely reporting a crime, or for pursuing charges or arresting someone in a case where one knows that no crime was committed or where there isn't enough to constitute probable cause to believe a crime was committed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I hate rape. When i was a child Rape destroyed my family (I was not the direct victim a sibling was.) Rapes do happen. In my experience (this is just my own personal observations) as a Police officer the majority of reported rapes were fake. Women making claims on a guy when he was at work, out of town, rock solid alibi's for date and time the "Rape" took place. This makes it so much the harder to prosecute real rapes. It also makes most cops look at all rapes as fakes. I never let that happen I always looked at each one as if it was real. I was shocked at the amount that were not real. Turns out she hooked up with an ex and when confronted by new BF she claimed stranger rape. She ended up pleading out to false reporting and having to pay back something like $7K in restitution for all the LE time spent on the case. She did not blame the rape on particular person, just stranger rape. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 8:14:48 AM EDT
[#49]
When it comes to common sense this place is a football bat.
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Posted: 6/27/2017 8:36:18 AM EDT
[#50]
I'm going to get a consent form made up and have Nolo proof read it.
Oh you wanna fuck? Check off the appropriate acts you are down for...No anal huh? You sure? Ok. Now, let's go to the bank and get it notarized and when we get back we'll get it on. |
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