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It wasn't robbery. He wanted to help me out so he let me have a hundred bucks. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Robbery doesn't work as an analogy, because people don't consent to be robbed. People DO hook up and have sex, willingly, all the time, with what amount to strangers. People have sex, and people rape/get raped. The ONLY difference is consent, and the ONLY way to decide if there was consent is "what would a reasonable person in that situation think?" Therefore, there has to be unequivocal words or action that communicate that there is no consent. It's not a requirement to prove no consent, because nobody consents to it. People consent to sex with strangers every day. The analogy does not work. Please don't simply repeat it. |
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Sounds like a "he said, she said case." I'm not saying she's lying but what do people expect to happen in cases like that? View Quote |
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"When she realized she didn’t have her keys, she started frantically searching for them, even climbing back into Bunn’s room and then out again. Next, she checked Bunn’s Mercedes, where she found his wallet and a pistol. She grabbed $3 in case she had to take a cab and the gun “for safety,” she told investigators. Megan didn’t know how to handle guns, she’d later explain, and she accidentally fired it before dropping the weapon to the ground. "
What a shit show. |
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I would agree with that, if it's "you are found to be LYING." Just because someone did a crime, doesn't mean they'll be convicted. It's a pretty high standard to live up to—to file a complaint with 100% certainty that there will be a conviction, and if you're wrong, you end up footing the bill or going to jail. How would you like that to be the standard for filing a complaint about a theft or some sort of assault? If it turns out the accused is not convicted, the victim goes to jail instead? Uh, no. View Quote But whether the cop signs or the citizen signs, its reviewed by a judge who issues the warrant, or not. There'd probably be a hearing, to decide if there's merit in proceeding to grand jury. Witnesses can testify, they can introduce her medical exam, other evidence, etc. Or, the matter can be just presented to a grand jury...and in this case, based on the facts and circumstances they did not issue an indictment. |
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So what you're telling me is that if she's too drunk to resist, it's not rape. View Quote I haven't seen anyone claim that raping a passed out/nearly passed out chick is cool, so I'm not sure where you're getting that. |
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I told this story at work and to my wife. I modified it so that it was a guy that was drunk and got into a random guys car. Got the shit kicked out of him and robbed. Every person I told that story to said "he's an idiot and deserved it." Then I told them the real story. Most people said she was an idiot who put herself in a bad situation. She didn't deserve to be raped but at the same time she set herself up for it on a platter View Quote |
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I would agree with that, if it's "you are found to be LYING." Just because someone did a crime, doesn't mean they'll be convicted. It's a pretty high standard to live up to—to file a complaint with 100% certainty that there will be a conviction, and if you're wrong, you end up footing the bill or going to jail. How would you like that to be the standard for filing a complaint about a theft or some sort of assault? If it turns out the accused is not convicted, the victim goes to jail instead? Uh, no. View Quote I'd be pretty happy if the accused was treated as innocent until proven guilty. The accused in this particular story hasn't been convicted of anything in court, but is facing judgment in the court of opinion for the "crime" of coming from affluence. He may be guilty of something in this situation, and he might not be guilty of anything more than looking to enjoy a one night stand. |
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I concur with this. And with a good ol' boy system, a guy in that position is going to walk. That's just what happens. The fact that she committed suicide later lends credence to the fact that she probably wasn't just looking for a payout, especially since she went to the police right away. Fact is, though, that there are plenty of LEOs who make a cursory investigation at best and disbelieve any rape victim that isn't broken and bleeding after the encounter. View Quote That may happen in some cases. Then again, we also have situations like the one at Duke where LEOs aggressively went after young adult men based on a false claim. |
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Oh yeah, something happened that she did not like, and if she had a brother, father, boyfriend, it would merit a asswhipping.
But, it was reviewed by a number of processes and the facts and circumstances apparently could not even meet the simple burden of probable-cause for an arrest to be made, a warrant to be issued. |
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I mean, that's fine and all, and I agree to some extent, but the real question is "Did the accused commit a crime"? The gravamen isn't , "Is the victim an idiot who put themselves in a bad situation that was foreseeable?". View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I told this story at work and to my wife. I modified it so that it was a guy that was drunk and got into a random guys car. Got the shit kicked out of him and robbed. Every person I told that story to said "he's an idiot and deserved it." Then I told them the real story. Most people said she was an idiot who put herself in a bad situation. She didn't deserve to be raped but at the same time she set herself up for it on a platter The reason I told the story differently was to make sure they weren't able to be biased by WOMAN and RAPE. |
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Yes Ms Allred, women do lie about rape. Whether the woman in this event lied I do not know. But it could have been consensual.
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I concur with this. And with a good ol' boy system, a guy in that position is going to walk. That's just what happens. The fact that she committed suicide later lends credence to the fact that she probably wasn't just looking for a payout, especially since she went to the police right away. Fact is, though, that there are plenty of LEOs who make a cursory investigation at best and disbelieve any rape victim that isn't broken and bleeding after the encounter. View Quote Does that mean some guilty will go free? Probably. But one thing our society decided a long time ago was that it was better to err on the side of letting the guilty go free than to inadvertently punish the innocent. I really don't want us to change that. |
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Here's a decent analogy.
I have a few people over my house for a party. We're all drinking a bunch of beer. At some point I take my dog for a walk. On my way home, my neighbor steps outside and starts talking to me. I really don't want to talk with him, but the only thing I keep saying is "I have to get back to my friends" (I'm still very polite/nice about this, mind you). He tells me to come inside, which I do without protest. He then continues talking with me and I continue saying "I really need to leave. I need to get back to my friends." Eventually I figure that the only way I'll be able to leave is if I just have a conversation with him, so I do. Is my neighbor now guilty of kidnapping? |
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So what you're telling me is that if she's too drunk to resist, it's not rape. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Use your words. Do you disagree that women sometimes give mixed signals to men? Long ago, in college, in fact, I have been told "no", which I absolutely honored, only to be awakened shortly thereafter by an unmistakable act that, itself, said yes. Again, I don't need to see wounds on anybody, but if you want toss someone in prison, it needs to be unequivocal. Do you disagree? CJ, did you drink a great big glass of 'tard this morning? Since when did you become a feminist? |
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I must be missing something here. The girl in this story was most certainly not too drunk to resist. She apparently was able to comprehend him telling her to go to his bedroom, which she then did under her own power (willingly, it would seem, based on her story). Afterwards, she jumped out of a second story window, climbed back in again, then jumped out a second time. I haven't seen anyone claim that raping a passed out/nearly passed out chick is cool, so I'm not sure where you're getting that. View Quote |
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Nobody consents to robbery. Its so unheard of that people "give" money to strangers that a big tip at a diner makes national news. Literally. It's not a requirement to prove no consent, because nobody consents to it. People consent to sex with strangers every day. The analogy does not work. Please don't simply repeat it. View Quote |
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People give money to strangers all the time. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Nobody consents to robbery. Its so unheard of that people "give" money to strangers that a big tip at a diner makes national news. Literally. It's not a requirement to prove no consent, because nobody consents to it. People consent to sex with strangers every day. The analogy does not work. Please don't simply repeat it. Let's just agree to disagree. Go white knight with someone else. |
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That may happen in some cases. Then again, we also have situations like the one at Duke where LEOs aggressively went after young adult men based on a false claim. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I concur with this. And with a good ol' boy system, a guy in that position is going to walk. That's just what happens. The fact that she committed suicide later lends credence to the fact that she probably wasn't just looking for a payout, especially since she went to the police right away. Fact is, though, that there are plenty of LEOs who make a cursory investigation at best and disbelieve any rape victim that isn't broken and bleeding after the encounter. |
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I must be missing something here. The girl in this story was most certainly not too drunk to resist. She apparently was able to comprehend him telling her to go to his bedroom, which she then did under her own power (willingly, it would seem, based on her story). Afterwards, she jumped out of a second story window, climbed back in again, then jumped out a second time. I haven't seen anyone claim that raping a passed out/nearly passed out chick is cool, so I'm not sure where you're getting that. |
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Anyone in that position, regardless of their social status OR gender, should walk. Of course, I can't speak to every situation, but on a general he said, she said where there's no other corroborating testimony or evidence... yeah, there's nothing to present to a jury to overcome the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And the default is and should be innocent until proven guilty. Does that mean some guilty will go free? Probably. But one thing our society decided a long time ago was that it was better to err on the side of letting the guilty go free than to inadvertently punish the innocent. I really don't want us to change that. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I concur with this. And with a good ol' boy system, a guy in that position is going to walk. That's just what happens. The fact that she committed suicide later lends credence to the fact that she probably wasn't just looking for a payout, especially since she went to the police right away. Fact is, though, that there are plenty of LEOs who make a cursory investigation at best and disbelieve any rape victim that isn't broken and bleeding after the encounter. Does that mean some guilty will go free? Probably. But one thing our society decided a long time ago was that it was better to err on the side of letting the guilty go free than to inadvertently punish the innocent. I really don't want us to change that. |
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Oh I definitely wouldn't vote to convict based on the article. No chance in hell. And a lack of resistance could indicate to a reasonable person that she is consenting. But I cannot tolerate the idea of a requirement to resist. If you failed to resist a robbery should it not be a crime? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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lol, that's not what he said at all. What he said is that there's a shit ton of reasonable doubt here. If you failed to resist a robbery should it not be a crime? The problem therein, is that just saying "NO" turns the ordeal into a he-said-she-said, unless there is some physical, tangible evidence that the victim did not want sex. I fully understand what he means, because sending someone to PMITA prison for 20 years because someone said that she said no without any actual evidence beyond hearsay goes against the principles our laws are founded on, those being that you are innocent until proven guilty. And anyone can claim after the fact that they said no, it happens all the goddamn time these days. But of course, requiring victims to physically resist goes too far the other way, and invites other assorted problems. Furthermore, this shit is muddled further when one or both parties are intoxicated. TLDR: Shit's complicated, yo. |
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It is likely that anybody who did not stand to make a mint off a trial would have given the same advice. Hell, his "dream team" may well have advised a plea. View Quote |
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I'll admit I haven't looked at the exact statutes, but you're telling me that having sex with a drunk passed out chick is kosher in Alabama? View Quote |
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Agreed. Better 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man go to prison. In a he said/she said (or he said/he said, or she said/she said), burden of proof is on the accuser, plain and simple. And there is no proof. No proof = no case. I doubt she was lying, as she later killed herself over it, but we don't (or shouldn't) put people in jail based on a story like that. View Quote |
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I hate rape.
When i was a child Rape destroyed my family (I was not the direct victim a sibling was.) Rapes do happen. In my experience (this is just my own personal observations) as a Police officer the majority of reported rapes were fake. Women making claims on a guy when he was at work, out of town, rock solid alibi's for date and time the "Rape" took place. This makes it so much the harder to prosecute real rapes. It also makes most cops look at all rapes as fakes. I never let that happen I always looked at each one as if it was real. I was shocked at the amount that were not real. |
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Do people who gave money away claim robbery "all the time"? You're like a dog on a bone. Let's just agree to disagree. Go white knight with someone else. The question was, do people who give money to strangers go to the police and claim they were robbed "all the time". I take it from your single anecdotal sample size, the answer is no. Robbery is a terrible parallel to rape, because "consent to robbery" is an unheard of defense, while consensual sex is a very common defense in rape cases. |
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I would have liked to see what proof she has that she was threatened with prosecution to not file a civil suit. I could see her beating the theft of the gun and money if the story holds together, although I am generally skeptical of this kind of sex offense.
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I hate rape. When i was a child Rape destroyed my family (I was not the direct victim a sibling was.) Rapes do happen. In my experience (this is just my own personal observations) as a Police officer the majority of reported rapes were fake. Women making claims on a guy when he was at work, out of town, rock solid alibi's for date and time the "Rape" took place. This makes it so much the harder to prosecute real rapes. It also makes most cops look at all rapes as fakes. I never let that happen I always looked at each one as if it was real. I was shocked at the amount that were not real. View Quote |
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It wasn't robbery. He wanted to help me out so he let me have a hundred bucks. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Robbery doesn't work as an analogy, because people don't consent to be robbed. People DO hook up and have sex, willingly, all the time, with what amount to strangers. People have sex, and people rape/get raped. The ONLY difference is consent, and the ONLY way to decide if there was consent is "what would a reasonable person in that situation think?" Therefore, there has to be unequivocal words or action that communicate that there is no consent. |
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Was that the question? No, it wasn't the question. The question was, do people who give money to strangers go to the police and claim they were robbed "all the time". I take it from your single anecdotal sample size, the answer is no. Robbery is a terrible parallel to rape, because "consent to robbery" is an unheard of defense, while consensual sex is a very common defense in rape cases. View Quote |
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A lot of women become passive when they are raped. They lay still and wait for it to be over. It's a survival mechanism. Now obviously a guy might proceed thinking she's ok with it and she's just a boring lay but either way the law shouldn't require resistance. View Quote |
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I hate rape. When i was a child Rape destroyed my family (I was not the direct victim a sibling was.) Rapes do happen. In my experience (this is just my own personal observations) as a Police officer the majority of reported rapes were fake. Women making claims on a guy when he was at work, out of town, rock solid alibi's for date and time the "Rape" took place. This makes it so much the harder to prosecute real rapes. It also makes most cops look at all rapes as fakes. I never let that happen I always looked at each one as if it was real. I was shocked at the amount that were not real. View Quote I've tried pointing out to some acquaintances the severity of false claims. How false claims hurt real victims by giving cause for doubt, which hurts the victim even more. The people I explained this to were simply unable to grasp the concept. |
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Under Alabama’s archaic rape law, victims must prove they “earnestly” resisted their attackers View Quote Archaic?!? Its a slippery slope to assume guilty before proven innocent or allow women to scream rape under any circumstance. Oops to late, thats already happened. Im sure she was a very stable and innocent woman as opposed to the very rich and $$ liable dude. |
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I would. Though I wouldn't require it. View Quote |
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I don't think I can agree to that. Rape is just too serious. I heard a story of a college student claiming that sex was rape because she stopped participating and claim the guy should have noticed and stopped. Didn't say 'stop', 'get off me' nothin'. Just quit being active. I'm not ready to send somebody to prison for a situation like that. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I would. Though I wouldn't require it. |
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Usually disputes over money are handled in civil court. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Was that the question? No, it wasn't the question. The question was, do people who give money to strangers go to the police and claim they were robbed "all the time". I take it from your single anecdotal sample size, the answer is no. Robbery is a terrible parallel to rape, because "consent to robbery" is an unheard of defense, while consensual sex is a very common defense in rape cases. That's a non sequitur. We were discussing how ROBBERY and RAPE are not parallels for purposes of resisting. Because people consent to sex with strangers all the time, but people don't consent to robbery. This is your dance, you're the one claiming they are similar for purposes of evaluating resisting or requirements to resist. So why are we now talking about what happens in civil court? Robbery is the subject. |
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By that measure, a person could be roofied and fucked, but no rape happened. You ok with getting roofied and buttsexed by the Crimson Tide offensive line? Not rape if you don't at least say no. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I would. Though I wouldn't require it. Because we already have that in many jurisdictions. We are talking about someone who was, by her own account, awake and aware, and able to move about under her own power. So why are we talking about roofies? A conscious person who does not consent to sex needs to tell the other person they do not consent. They don't need to fight to the death or show signs of injury, but it needs to be made clear there is no consent. |
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