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Posted: 6/23/2017 8:11:32 PM EDT
[#1]
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And it's going to get worse. Some agencies are already overlooking prior misdemeanor convictions. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 8:12:15 PM EDT
[#2]
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Applications across-the-board in LE are down 25-30%. The best candidates are going into other fields for more money and less hate. What is left gets hired. It also means standards have lowered, regardless of what administrators say. Training costs money and takes time that doesn't exist. I'm maxed on vacation and am now losing it, and just got told I couldn't take the two days I requested because of lack of coverage (manpower). I put in for the time because of mental exhaustion and stress, and I KNOW my quality of work has suffered because of it. I can't remember the last time I didn't have overtime on my paycheck, and my mandatory base is 87.5 per pay period. We can't find people willing to work the schedule for the money offered and while a little overtime can be a good thing, constant overtime kills morale and performance. When it comes to training, agencies don't want to provide more incentive for other agencies to headhunt, and new officer training is shorted to get the new officers on the road and filling slots (whether ready or not). And it's going to get worse. Some agencies are already overlooking prior misdemeanor convictions. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Just wanted to see GD's overall opinion. Poll inbound. Based on all the recent coverage, the Yanez case etc.. Do the officer training programs need to be modified or does the hiring process need to be scrutinized? Or is this all media hype? The very few cases that go bad are spread like wild fire. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/266387/IMG-2844-237261.JPG Applications across-the-board in LE are down 25-30%. The best candidates are going into other fields for more money and less hate. What is left gets hired. It also means standards have lowered, regardless of what administrators say. Training costs money and takes time that doesn't exist. I'm maxed on vacation and am now losing it, and just got told I couldn't take the two days I requested because of lack of coverage (manpower). I put in for the time because of mental exhaustion and stress, and I KNOW my quality of work has suffered because of it. I can't remember the last time I didn't have overtime on my paycheck, and my mandatory base is 87.5 per pay period. We can't find people willing to work the schedule for the money offered and while a little overtime can be a good thing, constant overtime kills morale and performance. When it comes to training, agencies don't want to provide more incentive for other agencies to headhunt, and new officer training is shorted to get the new officers on the road and filling slots (whether ready or not). And it's going to get worse. Some agencies are already overlooking prior misdemeanor convictions. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 8:15:00 PM EDT
[#3]
Anyway, to add something positive to this debate.
All I see Colorado state patrol doing is changing flat tires and helping people who have broken down. When my old Land Cruiser threw an error code, had to pull over to the side of the road, and in no time there was a Colorado state trooper asking me if I needed a tow truck or any help. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 8:17:40 PM EDT
[#4]
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Anyway, to add something positive to this debate. All I see Colorado state patrol doing is changing flat tires and helping people who have broken down. When my old Land Cruiser threw an error code, had to pull over to the side of the road, and in no time there was a Colorado state trooper asking me if I needed a tow truck or any help. 
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Posted: 6/23/2017 8:18:31 PM EDT
[#5]
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They're just looking for PC to get in those vehicles... plain view can be a real mutha fucker! 
NFA shit, too. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 8:23:43 PM EDT
[#6]
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Two prong problem: hiring and new reality on the street... Many if not most agencies require a 4 year degree. So they are getting many, liberal arts college indoctrinated types who could not get a job elsewhere. They went into debt to get a degree to get a job paying maybe 40-50K, working nights, holidays, weekends, birthdays, anniversaries etc. with the increasing likelihood of being fired, indicted, or killed. Back a few decades ago, the people who became cops had it in their blood. We would do nothing else. We were also typically prior service who understood personal sacrifice and discipline. Many of the newer generation cops are looking for a easy salary to pay off the college debt rather than adventure and glory. And, it was made painfully clear to me years ago that my agency would much rather pay for my very fancy funeral with motorcade and 21 gun salute rather than me using deadly force to protect myself. The thugs on the street know this. The risk/reward metric changed too much into the see nothing/do nothing area. Like they told me on my first solo day on the street..."no one ever got fired for doing nothing on the job but lots and lots of Officers have been fired and even indicted for doing too much". Also, when I started 20 years ago, probably 70% of the job involved crime and actual criminals. Now, it is maybe 30% crime fighting and 70% "customer service"... |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 8:24:41 PM EDT
[#7]
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$35k a year would be a pay raise around here. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 8:38:12 PM EDT
[#8]
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The job naturally attracts dirt bags. You gotta just weed'em out. <Re-banned--that's two in one day. One more is a hat trick. I hope the really stupid ones never figure out to keep a low profile when attempting to sneak back. --tbk1> |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 8:39:32 PM EDT
[#9]
Fife actually carried an unloaded gun with one bullet in his shirt pocket.
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Posted: 6/23/2017 8:45:12 PM EDT
[#10]
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Low salaries lead to poor retention of quality personnel. ar-jedi |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 8:50:32 PM EDT
[#11]
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That's a regional problem. I'm not seeing it in my AO. In fact, in my township no officer (incl. patrol) is on less than $100K *base*. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Low salaries lead to poor retention of quality personnel. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 8:53:29 PM EDT
[#12]
Veterans retiring, rookies put on the streets with less training than ever before, overall numbers at a dangerous low level, lowering of standards, lack of support from politicians and lack of support from the community.
That makes for real problems both in law enforcement and the communities they serve. Other than "Always be armed" and "Keep your hands on the steering wheel until the nice officer tells you to move them" I don't have any answers. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 8:54:18 PM EDT
[#13]
While every department is different, training is a huge issue.
My father is given 50 rounds per year to train & qualify with. He seeks out firearms & hand to hand training on his own time & dime. When people in his department find out about it, they make fun of him for being "Rambo". I do BJJ training with a Highway Patrol officer & a local city cop. They're both there because they can't get even basic hand to hand training through their departments. I've got mad respect for the guys who train on their own time and money. The ones who are satisfied not knowing what they don't know are dangerous though. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 8:56:38 PM EDT
[#14]
I learned everything I need to know from Deputy Fife.
I know how to go undercover as an ugly woman, I carry my one bullet in my chest pocket and if I ever happen across a goat full of dynamite, well gosh darn it, I can handle that too. 
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Posted: 6/23/2017 8:57:33 PM EDT
[#15]
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Bottom line is, cops were the "D" students in high school. I know a lot of people that I went to school with who became cops and NONE were even They just aren't the smartest group of people. 
Maybe you just went to a shitty school?
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Posted: 6/23/2017 9:01:14 PM EDT
[#16]
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You banned two guys in one day, or one guy twice in one day? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The job naturally attracts dirt bags. You gotta just weed'em out. <Re-banned--that's two in one day. One more is a hat trick. I hope the really stupid ones never figure out to keep a low profile when attempting to sneak back. --tbk1> |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 9:01:48 PM EDT
[#17]
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I do BJJ training with a Highway Patrol officer & a local city cop. They're both there because they can't get even basic hand to hand training through their departments. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 9:04:43 PM EDT
[#18]
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Posted: 6/23/2017 9:18:18 PM EDT
[#19]
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We have a Fife problem in our entire society. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 9:20:43 PM EDT
[#20]
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Posted: 6/23/2017 9:27:48 PM EDT
[#21]
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Well that is certainly one creative interpretation of the issue. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I wish just in threads like this, those of us who aren't professional enough could see the LEO icons. GD pitched such a screaming panty twisting fit that they were removed. Bedouin 2W was one of them. Maybe he has memory loss? |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 9:28:56 PM EDT
[#22]
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The job naturally attracts dirt bags. You gotta just weed'em out. <Re-banned--that's two in one day. One more is a hat trick. I hope the really stupid ones never figure out to keep a low profile when attempting to sneak back. --tbk1> 
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Posted: 6/23/2017 9:32:30 PM EDT
[#23]
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We also had guys who wanted to be in the secure forum but not known on the rest of the site due to credible arock issues. Especially in the EE. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Well that is certainly one creative interpretation of the issue. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 9:33:33 PM EDT
[#24]
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The vast, vast majority are not one of those MOSs. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 9:33:36 PM EDT
[#25]
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The job naturally attracts dirt bags. You gotta just weed'em out. <Re-banned--that's two in one day. One more is a hat trick. I hope the really stupid ones never figure out to keep a low profile when attempting to sneak back. --tbk1> |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 9:34:03 PM EDT
[#26]
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Low salaries lead to poor retention of quality personnel. Employee unions also allow people with serious disciplinary problems to keep working. Jus' Sayin'. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 9:44:28 PM EDT
[#27]
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When ya pay peanuts, ya get monkeys. Jus' Sayin'. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Low salaries lead to poor retention of quality personnel. Employee unions also allow people with serious disciplinary problems to keep working. Jus' Sayin'. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 10:01:16 PM EDT
[#28]
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Those farmers didn't have a permit. Fuck those guys. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those farmers didn't have a permit. Fuck those guys. 
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Posted: 6/23/2017 10:12:55 PM EDT
[#29]
These threads are always a nice and enjoyable read.
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Posted: 6/23/2017 11:00:51 PM EDT
[#30]
If you notice, it's the cops and retirees who are most concerned. And for damned good reason.
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Posted: 6/23/2017 11:11:08 PM EDT
[#31]
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I wish just in threads like this, those of us who aren't professional enough could see the LEO icons. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 11:20:36 PM EDT
[#32]
Training is an ever evolving issue in law enforcement that is never acknowledged by the media. The way Columbine changed the response to active shooter situations is a prime example.
Traffic stops are usually handled as either a "routine" stop or a high risk stop, and the Yanez incident shows a lack of ability to transition from a normal stop to a high risk situation. I suspect we will see some sort of intermediate risk procedures developed in response to this. Since the actual reason for the stop was a suspected armed robber he probably should have had an expectation that things could go sideways, and had a plan for that. This is a scenario that has played out numerous times in the past. I remember a couple of federal agents that stopped a suspected armed robber and ran up to the car. 2 teens in the car with their hands up initially, but one got shot in the jaw by an agent with an AR15 when he reached down to unbuckle his seat belt due to conflicting commands from the agents. The agents put themselves in a position right by the car that gave them no other option but to shoot when he reached down. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 11:21:48 PM EDT
[#33]
Well I'll be...
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Posted: 6/23/2017 11:23:15 PM EDT
[#34]
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Years ago, there used to be a LE Icon similar to the military and instructor icons. GD pitched such a screaming panty twisting fit that they were removed. Bedouin 2W was one of them. Maybe he has memory loss? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I wish just in threads like this, those of us who aren't professional enough could see the LEO icons. GD pitched such a screaming panty twisting fit that they were removed. Bedouin 2W was one of them. Maybe he has memory loss? And I can't remember ever seriously stating my opinion about the LE icons. Maybe you could jog my memory, @John-in-austin ? |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 11:23:40 PM EDT
[#35]
It is amazing how many here let the media lead them around by their nose into useful idiocy. I am starting to think conservatives or whatever y'all are are just as dumb, hysterical, and emotional as liberals.
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Posted: 6/23/2017 11:28:07 PM EDT
[#36]
My department has a pretty stringent hiring process and some dumbasses manage to make it through anyway. Some people can make it through that and still not cut it on the road.
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Posted: 6/23/2017 11:29:23 PM EDT
[#37]
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morganfreeman.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Low salaries lead to poor retention of quality personnel. Employee unions also allow people with serious disciplinary problems to keep working. Jus' Sayin'. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 11:47:38 PM EDT
[#38]
Some of it is media hype, but a lot of it is law enforcement in general. The people they hire, the tactics and principles they employ, the self-evident lack of responsibility and accountability, the gang-like mentality, nonsense like asset forfeiture, I could go on for an hour.
This forum is about as pro-LE as anywhere you are likely to find, but if this poll is any indication even here the majority see a problem. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 11:56:30 PM EDT
[#39]
I used to know every cop in my little town, and most of the county deputy's.
A lot of them were great down to earth guys just doing a job. But at least half were fucking morons. They were shitbags in highschool, got a gun and a badge and all of sudden... "I'm tha' laww". I don't know any of these new cats. They spend more time at the local quick marts getting free drinks, snacks, coffee and flirting with the staff than anything else as far as I can tell. The good guys I did know mostly either moved up the chain in the offices, or moved on to greener pastures for more money. I can't say I blame them. I try to give cops a pass for the most part when possible. It doesn't pay shit around here so they take what they can get. I had one tell me straight-up he just plain quit and changed careers entirely because the dept couldn't even afford to pay him the peanuts they agreed to. It may be regional, cultural, low pay, low skills, etc. Who knows. But like anything else, you got really bad ones, and some really good ones. YMMV. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 11:56:46 PM EDT
[#40]
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Don't give a shit what your interpretation is. Go back in the archives and look. 
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Posted: 6/24/2017 12:34:11 AM EDT
[#41]
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Years ago, there used to be a LE Icon similar to the military and instructor icons. GD pitched such a screaming panty twisting fit that they were removed. Bedouin 2W was one of them. Maybe he has memory loss? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I wish just in threads like this, those of us who aren't professional enough could see the LEO icons. GD pitched such a screaming panty twisting fit that they were removed. Bedouin 2W was one of them. Maybe he has memory loss? Sounds familiar for some reason. |
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Posted: 6/24/2017 12:41:31 AM EDT
[#42]
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Some of it is media hype, but a lot of it is law enforcement in general. The people they hire, the tactics and principles they employ, the self-evident lack of responsibility and accountability, the gang-like mentality, nonsense like asset forfeiture, I could go on for an hour. This forum is about as pro-LE as anywhere you are likely to find, but if this poll is any indication even here the majority see a problem. 
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Posted: 6/24/2017 12:44:38 AM EDT
[#43]
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The job naturally attracts dirt bags. You gotta just weed'em out. <Re-banned--that's two in one day. One more is a hat trick. I hope the really stupid ones never figure out to keep a low profile when attempting to sneak back. --tbk1>  Attached File |
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Posted: 6/24/2017 6:29:40 AM EDT
[#44]
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That doesn't explain NY and some of the ridiculous stories we hear about the gross incompetence and clown shows in some of those departments, something isn't jiving. It is not just a salary issue. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Low salaries lead to poor retention of quality personnel. Employee unions also allow people with serious disciplinary problems to keep working. Jus' Sayin'. My old PD is the lowest paid in the area and therefore has lower standards so they can put asses in the seats. At times they even resort to hiring people who were previously DQd during the hiring process. You have cops on other PDs in the same city who make up to 3 times what a NYPD cop makes. Many upstate departments don't pay anything close to what the downstate PDs pay, especially what the downstate county and town cops make. A guy in my unit did a lateral to a upstate city PD and his top base pay is about $30k less now. ETA: I just checked a cost of living calculator and his current pay is on par with some of the county PDs here in GA. |
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Posted: 6/24/2017 8:07:38 AM EDT
[#45]
I understand the TV character, but your average LEO is nothing like Barney Fife. He's a fictional comic relief character, meant to play off of Andy Griffith's portrayal of a calm collected main character, which is himself unlike real world LEOs.
I knew one guy in this career field that was the closest you might get to a Barney character. Not because of any similarity in his klutziness, but he sort of shared Barney's innocence in looking at the world. Born again Christian who went to my church when we were growing up. He wanted to believe the best in everyone, which in the end doesn't fit in well with being an effective LEO when you're dealing with the segment of society we deal with. He eventually got hurt and they buried him in his agencies records division until he retired I know another current LEO who is jaded as all get out but she takes on what I call these project people. She works for a small village PD and has the time to work on them, trying to get them sober, into detox and rehab, etc She's had a few successful cases. Not something anyone in a larger agency has the time or inclination to attempt My day yesterday was literally 8 hours of dealing with a retard who wanted to shoot up his schools graduation because he got suspended and didn't meet graduating requirements. The entire agency on-duty staff and resources from multiple other agencies were tied up with finding and dealing this one guy. We don't have time to try to save people from their inner demons, especially in the crazy summer season that we are currently into. |
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Posted: 6/24/2017 8:12:41 AM EDT
[#46]
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Fewer cops making more money, held to higher standards, and tasked with fewer jobs. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fewer cops making more money, held to higher standards, and tasked with fewer jobs. Fewer cops? We already do not have enough for the tasks we have to do. The public wants a certain level of service. They don't want to call the agency, make an appointment and wait their turn to see an officer during regular business hours. They want an officer at their doorstep at any time of the day or night to deal with the most trivial of issues. Quoted:
Low salaries lead to poor retention of quality personnel. Employee unions also allow people with serious disciplinary problems to keep working. It is the job of the union to represent the member in good standing during a disciplinary action. If someone isn't getting disciplined or let go, it's more often than not due to the administration not following their own policy on how disciplinary actions are handled, the union pointing that out, and the person remains on the job. It also is a matter of what can be proven. if the administration can't prove it, they can't discipline or fire the person. That's not the unions fault. |
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Posted: 6/24/2017 8:15:42 AM EDT
[#47]
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I knew one guy in this career field that was the closest you might get to a Barney character. Not because of any similarity in his klutziness, but he sort of shared Barney's innocence in looking at the world. Born again Christian who went to my church when we were growing up. He wanted to believe the best in everyone, which in the end doesn't fit in well with being an effective LEO when you're dealing with the segment of society we deal with. He eventually got hurt and they buried him in his agencies records division until he retired |
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Posted: 6/24/2017 8:20:55 AM EDT
[#48]
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Maybe he got so butthurt he fled the site and came back under a new nick... Sounds familiar for some reason. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I wish just in threads like this, those of us who aren't professional enough could see the LEO icons. GD pitched such a screaming panty twisting fit that they were removed. Bedouin 2W was one of them. Maybe he has memory loss? Sounds familiar for some reason. |
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Posted: 6/24/2017 8:26:06 AM EDT
[#49]
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I trained BJJ with some guys from my PD. (the one guy is a Gracie Barra BB now) None of us got any hand to hand training through the department. They don't want you training at something that'll cause a certain percentage of guys to sustain training injuries. And use of force is scary to the public, so you can't go training on something that'll scare the public. Look at how long it took LE to adopt the AR platform. Can't be scaring the public with that military looking rifle, they said back in the day. Here's a nice, public-friendly mini 14 that only the non-call-answering Sgt's can carry. They want you to write a good report and not screw up while being recorded by your fellow officers body cam. And be sure that report is done before you go home, no matter how many calls you answered on your shift, so I can read it in the morning. That's what's important to most admins. |
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Posted: 6/24/2017 8:39:04 AM EDT
[#50]
I`ve been fortunate to have known a few officers really well during my life. One Sgt. , one helicopter driver, one State trooper and a few more. These guys have all been upstanding guys with no "agenda" other than to live good lives and to return friendship when they find it. That being said I have seen some other officers that I wouldn`t piss on if they were on fire. This is a mirror image of the general population IMHO.
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