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Or Scout concepts are goofy and those that actually use rifles in the field prefer much more reach and much faster engagement? Just Sayin. View Quote Maybe you should work more on your fieldcraft and skill? |
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I thought it was supposed to be the ultimate SHTF rifle. View Quote It did get people thinking about shooting a rifle quickly, with both eyes open. Something that many people still don't comprehend 30 years later. |
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I'm in the field as much or more than anyone and the Scout rifle has never held me back. Maybe you should work more on your fieldcraft and skill? View Quote |
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I never shoot elk on nice flat fields.
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That (modern variables) is kind of what turned the tide IMO. I don't agree with everything Cooper, but I think he would have been pretty stoked on a 6.5G carbine with an ACOG. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I had a 700 I made into a scout . After a couple years I just put a 1-4x conventional scope on it and liked that better I don't agree with everything Cooper, but I think he would have been pretty stoked on a 6.5G carbine with an ACOG. I imagine a modern scout rifle as a short action, 18" barreled (suppressor capable), light weight rifle with a detachable magazine and a 1x6 variable scope in 6.5 Creedmore. Or a mini version on one of the Howa mini actions in 6.5 Grendel. |
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I own a truck. http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/DSC00273_zps99d0dfd5.jpg http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/P1000345.jpg View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Doesnt that mean more distant to pull in a heavy ass dead animal? http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/DSC00273_zps99d0dfd5.jpg http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/P1000345.jpg After tasting elk for the first time last week, I really want to go on an elk hunt. |
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Some elk hunts are easier than others. http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/DSC00279_zps1f1d6838.jpg http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/Mules/P1000072_zpsd4a4a1ed-1.jpg View Quote |
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I'd still like to own one someday but the price keeps me away from it.
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We aren't having a caliber discussion and I didn't label the Scout as dumb, outdated or pointless. I was specifically addressing medium ranged moving targets. There are places where a semi auto is a no-go for hunting so bolt gun make sense. My issue with the Scout is that the placement of the optics is very limiting. There are way more options for glass on regular bolt actions. I can set the TR24 on my AR to 2X and have a rifle with faster follow-ups, more capacity etc. I'd love to have a Scout but my ARs are more flexible and adaptable for less than the Steyr. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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That's sweet, but... My AR does that very well. There are places where a semi auto is a no-go for hunting so bolt gun make sense. My issue with the Scout is that the placement of the optics is very limiting. There are way more options for glass on regular bolt actions. I can set the TR24 on my AR to 2X and have a rifle with faster follow-ups, more capacity etc. I'd love to have a Scout but my ARs are more flexible and adaptable for less than the Steyr. People also forget the reason for the optic being mounted like that. It was done to clear the top of the action. This was done in turn to make the rifle much easier to carry at the balance in the field (after all, the scout rifle is intended for field use). It was also done to facilitate eyes-off reloading and to make reloading easier in general. An added bonus was the one could load with chargers on a rifle equipped with a charger guide. Cooper happened to like the sighting system after trying it for other reasons, as he found it very quick to use and it allowed him to maintain his peripheral vision. The intent with the scout rifle is to make it friendly to use in the field. I do think that there are some downsides to that sighting system, but it isn't a bad one. Every sighting system has its compromises. As red dots became more reliable and batteries longer-lived, Cooper considered red dots as a potential option for a scout rifle. Irons-only was always an option (a sight suited for quick use and adjustable for various ranges was required; his preference was for the ghost ring), and some scout rifles also had the capacity for lower-powered conventionally-mounted scopes (and IIRC, one of his early ones was so fitted). Iron sights were, though, the only type that was mandatory, even on rifles with optics. One of his early scouts lacked irons, but generally, they had them, at least for backup use. Basically, a scout rifle is a very lightweight rifle designed to be friendly and handy for prolonged field use which also had quick-acquisition sights suited for a decent variety of ranges and which is capable of reliably killing game under a certain weight as well as people, and which has some aids to loading, steadying, etc. (like ammo on or in the butt, a speed shooting sling, etc.) while using a cartridge that can be readily obtained worldwide. An AR is longer and heavier and, importantly, bulkier, which is true of other modern combat-oriented self-loaders. Of course, Cooper was not opposed to a self-loading scout rifle action, but it had to, on top of being sturdy and reliable, be sufficiently compact in all three dimensions and light enough for the rifle to make weight, which is a very tall order. I'm not sure that a suitable action has ever been invented. An AR-15 more specifically is lacking in sufficient power to be considered general-purpose. When one understands what its meant to do, and where the arrangement has conceptual flexibility, it is quite sound. A lightweight, general-purpose rifle that is easy to carry all day long is a very nice thing when well-executed. Rifles that are in the realm of his parameters, even if not strictly scout rifles, are a joy to carry. I really like them. If one is not in the habit of going afield and taking his rifle with him then I can see why he would not find much merit in the idea. While it can be shot at the range or used for home defence and the like if one desired, it's not really necessary for the former and less than ideal for the latter. A person who only uses their rifles for those things and has no intent or desire to move beyond that probably doesn't have much use for such a rifle, whether it meets the parameters of a scout rifle or is just on the broader general-purpose rifle category. |
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Looking at your pics I'm trying to figure out why you're in a scout threads. Open country elk hunting isn't in the scout's mission statement. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Some elk hunts are easier than others. http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/DSC00279_zps1f1d6838.jpg http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/Mules/P1000072_zpsd4a4a1ed-1.jpg |
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The Scout is an answer to the question no one asked. I believe Aimless described the concept as "A thought experiment by men in the '70s, dreaming about exploring Africa in the '30s, needing a rifle that could take lions, Nazi spies, or a Tyrannosaurus Rex". View Quote A lot of the notions that probably led to Aimless saying what he did seem to come from people who general don't like Cooper. |
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I love my pseudo-scout rifle. 2x IER scope makes it easy to pick out a target.
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If I lived in CA, that would probably be my favorite too. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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My 223 Scout. This is my favorite gun. Nothing else even comes close. https://i.imgur.com/IuY6puW.jpg |
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CoC prevents me from ripping you from stem to stern. View Quote Like him or hate him The guy laid the foundation for pretty much all modern combat shooting Granted yes he did not invent all of it but he recognized it , organized it , and promoted it against extreme institutional inertia for decades . |
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It's funny because I just watched that video yesterday. Scout rifles are awesome and the Steyr is a very well executed one. If only they weren't so expensive. View Quote |
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Nobody in the 1980s was going into the wilderness on foot for months on end with one rifle to shoot everything large and small and maybe get into a gunfight. It was always a little bit of fantasy role playing for gun guys who then took purpose built hunting rifles if they went out of town on a hunting expedition.
The Canadian Rangers were running around with Lee enfields becauee they were free, otherwise they would have been using the same mini 14 or rem700 we were using to hunt in upstate NY. And don't accuse me of hating Cooper. I took a class once, I think the second class I went to. I was packing up my stuff at the end of one day. The instructor pointed to a copy of The Art of The Rifle on the table that I had taken out of my case to move some stuff around. "You keep that in your rifle case?" I said I did. He was kind of surprised and didn't say anything else. I shrugged it off and left and went to my motel room. I was unpacking that night and was curious and got the book out. The Instructor, Giles Stock, was in a bunch of the photos in the book. I was embarrassed that I had not made the connection and didn't say anything the next day. I regret not having him sign my copy. |
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Nobody in the 1980s was going into the wilderness on foot for months on end with one rifle to shoot everything large and small and maybe get into a gunfight. It was always a little bit of fantasy role playing for gun guys who then took purpose built hunting rifles if they went out of town on a hunting expedition. The Canadian Rangers were running around with Lee enfields becauee they were free, otherwise they would have been using the same mini 14 or rem700 we were using to hunt in upstate NY. And don't accuse me of hating Cooper. I took a class once, I think the second class I went to. I was packing up my stuff at the end of one day. The instructor pointed to a copy of The Art of The Rifle on the table that I had taken out of my case to move some stuff around. "You keep that in your rifle case?" I said I did. He was kind of surprised and didn't say anything else. I shrugged it off and left and went to my motel room. I was unpacking that night and was curious and got the book out. The Instructor, Giles Stock, was in a bunch of the photos in the book. I was embarrassed that I had not made the connection and didn't say anything the next day. I regret not having him sign my copy. View Quote Interestingly, if any military organization would have any use for scout rifles, it would be those like the Canadian Rangers. Their Lee-Enfields were far from being like scout rifles, though; the No. 5, on the other hand, is pretty much a scout rifle in every way except for the cartridge it shoots, although some 7.62mm conversions exist. Their new rifle being phased in is the C-19, which is based on a Tikka action. In many respects it looks like a scout rifle; it definitely doesn't make weight, though, being well over a pound overweight (the use of a laminate rather than a modern synthetic stock is a big part of that; it's also a big part of what makes the Ruger Gunsite overweight). |
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Tell me more about this "Scout Type" bull killin. http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/2016%20Elk/DSC01668_zpsnvqrh051.jpg View Quote |
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It wasn't envisioned specifically for going months on end hunting everything and fighting people. It could do that if you had to (although it wasn't meant to take the larger game you seem to think it was meant to take), but most people who take a rifle afield do so for shorter periods of time and perhaps to hunt something more specific and limited in mind. The concept still works for that, too. Interestingly, if any military organization would have any use for scout rifles, it would be those like the Canadian Rangers. Their Lee-Enfields were far from being like scout rifles, though; the No. 5, on the other hand, is pretty much a scout rifle in every way except for the cartridge it shoots, although some 7.62mm conversions exist. Their new rifle being phased in is the C-19, which is based on a Tikka action. In many respects it looks like a scout rifle; it definitely doesn't make weight, though, being well over a pound overweight (the use of a laminate rather than a modern synthetic stock is a big part of that; it's also a big part of what makes the Ruger Gunsite overweight). View Quote i don't have time to debunk all of your heresy right now but cooper said a scout rifle should kill anything short of an elephant |
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And while overweight and overlong in comparison with the suggested guidelines, the C-19/Tikka CTR Arctic is pretty much a scout rifle, employed by the Canadian Rangers in the same manner and for the same purposes that Cooper envisioned...
Yeah, pretty much fantasy, right? |
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Rewriting the Bible? i don't have time to debunk all of your heresy right now but cooper said a scout rifle should kill anything short of an elephant View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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It wasn't envisioned specifically for going months on end hunting everything and fighting people. It could do that if you had to (although it wasn't meant to take the larger game you seem to think it was meant to take), but most people who take a rifle afield do so for shorter periods of time and perhaps to hunt something more specific and limited in mind. The concept still works for that, too. Interestingly, if any military organization would have any use for scout rifles, it would be those like the Canadian Rangers. Their Lee-Enfields were far from being like scout rifles, though; the No. 5, on the other hand, is pretty much a scout rifle in every way except for the cartridge it shoots, although some 7.62mm conversions exist. Their new rifle being phased in is the C-19, which is based on a Tikka action. In many respects it looks like a scout rifle; it definitely doesn't make weight, though, being well over a pound overweight (the use of a laminate rather than a modern synthetic stock is a big part of that; it's also a big part of what makes the Ruger Gunsite overweight). i don't have time to debunk all of your heresy right now but cooper said a scout rifle should kill anything short of an elephant |
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And while overweight and overlong in comparison with the suggested guidelines, the C-19/Tikka CTR Arctic is pretty much a scout rifle, employed by the Canadian Rangers in the same manner and for the same purposes that Cooper envisioned... Yeah, pretty much fantasy, right? View Quote |
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The scout rifle was meant to be used by a military scout. It just happens to be a good ranch rifle.
With a ten round magazine and a spare ten round magazine carried in the buttstock, just grab it out of the truck and it can handle most rifle situations nicely. Cooper said if you could not afford to have a scout built, just get the Ruger M77 Lightweight 308 and put a low power scope on it. Still good advice, IMHO. |
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LOL, no he didn't. That's what his medium and heavy rifles were for. He developed the medium scout rifle to deal with heavier and more dangerous game, hence his interest in cartridges like the .350 Remington Magnum (medium cartridge that could fit in a compact action, facilitating making weight and length). One of his medium scouts is what he took on his last lion hunt. For the biggest stuff, like buffalo, elephants, rhinos, etc. he considered mediums to be questionable and advocated the use of heavy rifles, with the epitome in his eyes being 'Baby'. Rewriting the bible? Shoot, everything I just said can be found in his books and other writings. View Quote |
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LMAO. Does the scout concept always get so much hate around here? View Quote Note the comments about the scope. Not o lay is thatbscope placement not required, that very rifle doesn't require it and allows for all sorts of different scope mounting solutions. But, in thread after thread, we read about turning other rifles "into scouts" (impossible, usually, but usually this means "I put a long eye relief forward mounted scope on it") or how they like the scout concept but the scope is a deal breaker. Weight, length, and effective range are all key aspects of the scout "concept," that get ignored out of some sort of tradition. |
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When Cooper was pushing the scout people were buying hk91s for the inevitable end of the world View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I thought it was supposed to be the ultimate SHTF rifle. Besides, all this mystery UN army has to do is force people to eat from chain restaurants and all of the resistance will be too sick to fight. |
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Rewriting the Bible? i don't have time to debunk all of your heresy right now but cooper said a scout rifle should kill anything short of an elephant View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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It wasn't envisioned specifically for going months on end hunting everything and fighting people. It could do that if you had to (although it wasn't meant to take the larger game you seem to think it was meant to take), but most people who take a rifle afield do so for shorter periods of time and perhaps to hunt something more specific and limited in mind. The concept still works for that, too. Interestingly, if any military organization would have any use for scout rifles, it would be those like the Canadian Rangers. Their Lee-Enfields were far from being like scout rifles, though; the No. 5, on the other hand, is pretty much a scout rifle in every way except for the cartridge it shoots, although some 7.62mm conversions exist. Their new rifle being phased in is the C-19, which is based on a Tikka action. In many respects it looks like a scout rifle; it definitely doesn't make weight, though, being well over a pound overweight (the use of a laminate rather than a modern synthetic stock is a big part of that; it's also a big part of what makes the Ruger Gunsite overweight). i don't have time to debunk all of your heresy right now but cooper said a scout rifle should kill anything short of an elephant |
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Nobody in the 1980s was going into the wilderness on foot for months on end with one rifle to shoot everything large and small and maybe get into a gunfight. It was always a little bit of fantasy role playing for gun guys who then took purpose built hunting rifles if they went out of town on a hunting expedition. The Canadian Rangers were running around with Lee enfields becauee they were free, otherwise they would have been using the same mini 14 or rem700 we were using to hunt in upstate NY. And don't accuse me of hating Cooper. I took a class once, I think the second class I went to. I was packing up my stuff at the end of one day. The instructor pointed to a copy of The Art of The Rifle on the table that I had taken out of my case to move some stuff around. "You keep that in your rifle case?" I said I did. He was kind of surprised and didn't say anything else. I shrugged it off and left and went to my motel room. I was unpacking that night and was curious and got the book out. The Instructor, Giles Stock, was in a bunch of the photos in the book. I was embarrassed that I had not made the connection and didn't say anything the next day. I regret not having him sign my copy. View Quote It's a good story... |
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Please tell us more, o guru with 17 posts, who just joined this month. Jeff Cooper created the modern concept of the pistol; how many game-changing concepts have you come up with, squirt? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes |
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Hate, usually rooted in wanton ignorance. Note the comments about the scope. Not o lay is thatbscope placement not required, that very rifle doesn't require it and allows for all sorts of different scope mounting solutions. But, in thread after thread, we read about turning other rifles "into scouts" (impossible, usually, but usually this means "I put a long eye relieve forward mounted scope on it") or how they like the scout concept but the scope is a deal breaker. Weight, length, and effective range are all key aspects of the scout "concept," that get ignored out of some sort of tradition. View Quote |
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It would be amusing if there was at least an ounce of truth to it, but there isn't. That's not where the concept came from. It came out of a desire to have something light and handy (and "friendly") for field use, that could do most things within reason, and which was capable of quick or more deliberate use. It's nothing more than that, and to that end it's pretty decent. Cooper was a fan of good heavy rifles for the really big, serious stuff and if one needed something for a T-Rex, he probably would have advocated a super-heavy double, like a .577 Nitro Express. For bridging the gap between the heavies and the scout, he developed a medium scout rifle, which had to abandon the universal cartridge requirement but basically maintains a lot of the characteristics of the scout while being capable of taking on heavier game (but not the really big, or really dangerous, stuff outside of the big cats). A lot of the notions that probably led to Aimless saying what he did seem to come from people who general don't like Cooper. View Quote |
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