Congress considering restart of F-22 program - Page 2

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Congress considering restart of F-22 program (Page 2 of 7)

Posted: 6/21/2017 4:26:25 PM EDT

[#1]

It's just politics. We must eventually build new planes. They will be different. They will have similarities. They will be expensive.

We will build new planes or others will.

Posted: 6/21/2017 4:31:49 PM EDT

[#2]

The F-22 didn't appear to have been designed for ease of manufacturing. Some of the composite parts I saw used some unique processes that aren't really common in the industry. composite tooling in this industry isn't quick or easy to get up and going. There is always some trial and error before the bond jigs and such are making decent and repeatable parts, ~~sometimes~~ usually more than a year IME.

Posted: 6/21/2017 4:34:26 PM EDT

[#3]

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And as I always post in Raptor threads, the F-22 is damn near 30 year old technology.

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Is there a newer and better stealth fighter?

Posted: 6/21/2017 4:37:55 PM EDT

[#4]

Where are all of the "we don't need XXX to kill goat fuckers" guys while things are ramping up with the Russians in Syria and with the ChiComs in the south china sea?

Posted: 6/21/2017 4:44:23 PM EDT

[#5]

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The F-22 didn't appear to have been designed for ease of manufacturing. Some of the composite parts I saw used some unique processes that aren't really common in the industry. composite tooling in this industry isn't quick or easy to get up and going. There is always some trial and error before the bond jigs and such are making decent and repeatable parts, ~~sometimes~~ usually more than a year IME.

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Don't forget the layup, trim and drill and ICF as well. I do not know if most of the masters were destroyed or secured. I saw various soft B2 bomber jigs and fixtures being destroyed last decade.

Posted: 6/21/2017 4:49:19 PM EDT

[#6]

LOL at all the "But F-15/16/18..."

That's the exact same thinking that had us start into the Korean war with propeller driven fighters against jet driven mig 15's and with infantry weapons that couldn't defeat the NK/Chinese armor.

If we could go back to the early 80's, please, and get back to realizing that because we fight with the military we have NOW, we need to be building the military we need for a fight 30 years from now.

Look at the advisors on the ground in Syria. Without real air cover with capability significantly above the potential adversaries, those guys are fucking hamburger. Are the teen series good enough? At the moment, yes, probably. Are they good enough when the Sov...er...Russians move S300's in? God I hope so, for the sake of everyone there. S400's? From public data, it's unlikely.

You can bitch all you want that we should leave Syria to rot, but that's not reality, and it's in reality that we're asking people to fight.

Posted: 6/21/2017 4:50:06 PM EDT

[#7]

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... as much as I love the F22 Raptor, that is simply unfathomable for someone that spent his 35 years career in the business

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Posted: 6/21/2017 4:50:22 PM EDT

[#8]

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Is there a newer and better stealth fighter?

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And as I always post in Raptor threads, the F-22 is damn near 30 year old technology.

Is there a newer and better stealth fighter?

FOC was 10 years ago.

Posted: 6/21/2017 4:52:34 PM EDT

[#9]

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Is there a newer and better stealth fighter?

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And as I always post in Raptor threads, the F-22 is damn near 30 year old technology.

Is there a newer and better stealth fighter?

Maybe he's part of the group that would rather build 3x the number of 60 year old tech planes that will have 10x the pilot loss rate and will be able to do 1/100th of the missions.

Posted: 6/21/2017 4:53:03 PM EDT

[#10]

My honest, ignorant, unknowing opinion is we should have built at least 290 F-22s if we

were going to kill it.

The first 30 off the line (the most likely to be built without full capability) go into a training

and parts squadron. Then ten 26 aircraft squadrons with 24 active and 2 spares per

squadron. That should at least give great depth and longevity.

It's a shame it isn't coming back.

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:13:24 PM EDT

[#11]

I think we should go for it. The cost of restarting the production line can be somewhat offset by foreign sales. The Japanese are dying to get the Raptor and have even said they'd share in the costs of restarting the line and development. I'm sure the Aussies and other trusted allies would like to jump aboard as well. Lift the goofy ass ban on foreign sales of the F-22 and pump up the numbers beyond 194 new production models. That will bring down costs even more and extend the production run in case we decide later we want more than just 194 new Raptors.

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:16:31 PM EDT

[#12]

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What's pathetic is the F-22 uses tech three decades old and is better than anything our peers will be fielding for the foreseable future.

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Ain't that the truth.

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:19:24 PM EDT

[#13]

Wouldn't it be cheaper to just upgrade the design of the F-22 A and call it a B? If they start designing a new 6th gen, the requirements will balloon up, and it will end up costing 200mil per plane.

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:20:00 PM EDT

[#14]

Would it not be a huge pain in the ass? Putting all the tooling back together and then getting the expertise that is needed to build every component?

Not matter what our enemies, China and Russia want us to believe. It's immensely difficult and expensive to build these Stealth Jets. You can't just "copy" it from Blue Prints.

It might be better to just maybe build a "Super JSF" F-35 for being a pure Fighter.

Our leaders failed us when they shutdown the F-22 line.

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:20:37 PM EDT

[#15]

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Buy 300 new F-15's as a stop gap measure as we await the F-22 replacement since the production line is still open. We need actual airframes to do the missions. Yes I know they're 2 seat models only but it's still the best thing available that's still being made

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At this point, I agree with you somewhat. Given that the F-35 isn't going anywhere (sometimes literally) and we really can't make more F-22s without spending a metric truckload of money, I say we order some of the latest, greatest F-15s for the air force and fully upgraded Super Hornets for the navy. Those ought to bridge the gap between now and when the F-35 is ready for combat. You know, in ten years or so.

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:26:47 PM EDT

[#16]

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What particular point do you disagree with?

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Do we even have the tooling any more? DoD is infamous for destroying tooling when the program is over.

Tooling for bending and forging the big metal bits will still be around. Those aren't the problem. It's the thousands of other parts that aren't made anymore by companies that don't exist that were staffed by people who have retired, changed careers or have other jobs to do.

You could make something that looks like an f22, but it'd have all new guts and that'd cost more then we are likely willing to pay for and take so long it'd probably not be all that relevant.

What particular point do you disagree with?

All of it.

It is just nonsensical. How did we build it in the first place?

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:27:12 PM EDT

[#17]

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This thread reminded me that I used to love the YF23 and was really bummed when the F22 was chosen over it. Needs moar sexy YF23 pron.

https://s16-us2.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http%3A%2F%2Fyf23fighter.magicbytodd.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F09%2FYF-23_009_1.jpeg&sp=83216e1e5c4ce45cb8382b240aaf33ca

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Spot on.

The Ol' Crew Chief

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:27:16 PM EDT

[#18]

Sounds like Lockheed Martin's lobbyists have been busy working overtime stuffing dollar bills in to Congress's pants.

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:27:56 PM EDT

[#19]

Meh. Raptor is old. May Fuck Obama the traitor burn in hell for screwing the country by cancelling the F22 program that was already paid for.

However, it's time to move on.

Clean sheet of paper.

Gen 6 twin engine, long range air superiority stealth fighter. Based loosely on the F22 like the Super Hornet was based on the legacy F18A, B, C, D. Maybe call it the F22B or the Super Raptor.

Air Force version only.

Marines and Navy get their 35B, 35C, & whatever Super Bugs they need to support the mission. That's it, tough shit.

Done.

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:27:57 PM EDT

[#20]

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I think we should go for it. The cost of restarting the production line can be somewhat offset by foreign sales. The Japanese are dying to get the Raptor and have even said they'd share in the costs of restarting the line and development. I'm sure the Aussies and other trusted allies would like to jump aboard as well. Lift the goofy ass ban on foreign sales of the F-22 and pump up the numbers beyond 194 new production models. That will bring down costs even more and extend the production run in case we decide later we want more than just 194 new Raptors.

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This, and I had a uncle who was a engineer for LM, and he has said everything was saved and carfully stored as they have always planned on a restart. He stated a year or so ago when we're talking about it, even if 5 years or more went by every last thing about that plane and it's production was saved. He even stated that unused materials were saved and stored. He said the biggest problem and time consumer would be setting up a factory and getting the equipment into place. They could start training people pretty quick and actually have that all completed in time for hand on training. He said never in his history has he seen such a complete and care disassembly and storage of tools and equipment. He said everything was photographed and videoed of where stuff went and how it was disassembled. When it was moved into a different storage area to free up room for F-35 production it was re-stored in a way that the fist stuff out, is the first to be installed.

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:29:44 PM EDT

[#21]

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Sounds like Lockheed Martin's lobbyists have been busy working overtime stuffing dollar bills in to Congress's pants.

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"Americans LOVE a winner. And will not tolerate a loser!"

Americans want our guys to have the very best equipment. Simple as that.

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:30:05 PM EDT

[#22]

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Quoted:
I think we should go for it. The cost of restarting the production line can be somewhat offset by foreign sales. The Japanese are dying to get the Raptor and have even said they'd share in the costs of restarting the line and development. I'm sure the Aussies and other trusted allies would like to jump aboard as well. Lift the goofy ass ban on foreign sales of the F-22 and pump up the numbers beyond 194 new production models. That will bring down costs even more and extend the production run in case we decide later we want more than just 194 new Raptors.

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That makes too much sense, therefore, can't be done!

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:31:11 PM EDT

[#23]

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Is there a newer and better stealth fighter?

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Not if we spend our money restarting production of the old one...

I think the F-35 has been an expensive clusterfuck that will eventually <hopefully> yield a decent plane. Spending a shitload of money to restart production so we can spend another shitload of money buying a 30yo model doesn't seem like a great alternative.

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:31:35 PM EDT

[#24]

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Would it not be a huge pain in the ass? Putting all the tooling back together and then getting the expertise that is needed to build every component?

Not matter what our enemies, China and Russia want us to believe. It's immensely difficult and expensive to build these Stealth Jets. You can't just "copy" it from Blue Prints.

It might be better to just maybe build a "Super JSF" F-35 for being a pure Fighter.

Our leaders failed us when they shutdown the F-22 line.

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All you need is money....

We were doing this 70 years ago....
Willow Run

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:32:07 PM EDT

[#25]

Quote History

Quoted:
This, and I had a uncle who was a engineer for LM, and he has said everything was saved and carfully stored as they have always planned on a restart. He stated a year or so ago when we're talking about it, even if 5 years or more went by every last thing about that plane and it's production was saved. He even stated that unused materials were saved and stored. He said the biggest problem and time consumer would be setting up a factory and getting the equipment into place. They could start training people pretty quick and actually have that all completed in time for hand on training. He said never in his history has he seen such a complete and care disassembly and storage of tools and equipment. He said everything was photographed and videoed of where stuff went and how it was disassembled. When it was moved into a different storage area to free up room for F-35 production it was re-stored in a way that the fist stuff out, is the first to be installed.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
I think we should go for it. The cost of restarting the production line can be somewhat offset by foreign sales. The Japanese are dying to get the Raptor and have even said they'd share in the costs of restarting the line and development. I'm sure the Aussies and other trusted allies would like to jump aboard as well. Lift the goofy ass ban on foreign sales of the F-22 and pump up the numbers beyond 194 new production models. That will bring down costs even more and extend the production run in case we decide later we want more than just 194 new Raptors.

This, and I had a uncle who was a engineer for LM, and he has said everything was saved and carfully stored as they have always planned on a restart. He stated a year or so ago when we're talking about it, even if 5 years or more went by every last thing about that plane and it's production was saved. He even stated that unused materials were saved and stored. He said the biggest problem and time consumer would be setting up a factory and getting the equipment into place. They could start training people pretty quick and actually have that all completed in time for hand on training. He said never in his history has he seen such a complete and care disassembly and storage of tools and equipment. He said everything was photographed and videoed of where stuff went and how it was disassembled. When it was moved into a different storage area to free up room for F-35 production it was re-stored in a way that the fist stuff out, is the first to be installed.

Last comment was interesting. I've heard mostly the same from a former Lockmart person.

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:32:58 PM EDT

[#26]

Should never have stopped production.

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:33:22 PM EDT

[#27]

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Not if we spend our money restarting production of the old one...

I think the F-35 has been an expensive clusterfuck that will eventually <hopefully> yield a decent plane. Spending a shitload of money to restart production so we can spend another shitload of money buying a 30yo model doesn't seem like a great alternative.

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Its not "decent"; the F-35 is already an amazing aircraft. It was meant as like a cheap Stealth replacement for the DO-ALL, F16. But those projections were pie in the sky.

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:37:26 PM EDT

[#28]

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This we should put money to the next generation of fighters instead.

What's pathetic is the F-22 uses tech three decades old and is better than anything our peers will be fielding for the forseable future.

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It doesn't even have laser cannons OR cloaking device. It's the 21st century. Any new fighter plane should have at least one of those two things.

I mean, what's the use of all these off-world excursions through the Stargate if we aren't going to build fighter planes with freakin laser cannons?

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:42:06 PM EDT

[#29]

We can still build a F-15XX, and better than our 1989 vision.

What we will do is fuck around with SLEP mods of F-18A-G's, and F-15C-E's in hopes the lives are extended well beyond the original contracted life.

In the mean time treasure will be spent on the next air superiority fighter. Maybe we will have the moxie to pull it off.

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:48:07 PM EDT

[#30]

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And as I always post in Raptor threads, the F-22 is damn near 30 year old technology.

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LOL. Even the newest, whiz-bangiest thing fielded by DOD is at the very least 10 year old technology. Thanks DOD Directive 5000.01.

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:48:11 PM EDT

[#31]

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Its not "decent"; the F-35 is already an amazing aircraft. It was meant as like a cheap Stealth replacement for the DO-ALL, F16. But those projections were pie in the sky.

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Ok, so it's amazing. That just reiterates my point that we should finish the F-35 instead of spending a shitload of money to restart production of a 30yo model.

BTW, restarting production is almost certainly going to cost FAR more and take significantly longer than anyone predicts. Of course, this could be the first government-funded project in history that comes in on time and under budget, but I could also find a winning mega millions ticket on the ground tomorrow with Megan Fox's personal number on it.

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:52:03 PM EDT

[#32]

I think we need 1,000 of them.

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:53:48 PM EDT

[#33]

Why not ots not like its real money at this point anyway.

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:55:30 PM EDT

[#34]

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So is a glock.

try again block tech is pushing 70 years old

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Posted: 6/21/2017 5:57:53 PM EDT

[#35]

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Just speed up the 6th gen fighters... you know there are some technology demonstrators that have been out there floating around.
http://img.scout.com/sites/default/files/2017/06/02/NG-6th-Gen-fighter.jpg
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NDLDI9TpwuY/Uglxyh7xn-I/AAAAAAAABuU/4Uc5p-rE5a4/s1600/Lockheed-sixth-gen.jpg

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I would like to know more

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:58:16 PM EDT

[#36]

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Wouldn't it be cheaper to just upgrade the design of the F-22 A and call it a B? If they start designing a new 6th gen, the requirements will balloon up, and it will end up costing 200mil per plane.

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If it really takes a generation to design a replacement fighter, they should have started a decade ago on the 6th gen.

Posted: 6/21/2017 5:59:50 PM EDT

[#37]

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If it really takes a generation to design a replacement fighter, they should have started a decade ago on the 6th gen.

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We did.

Posted: 6/21/2017 6:00:20 PM EDT

[#38]

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My honest, ignorant, unknowing opinion is we should have built at least 290 F-22s if we

were going to kill it.

The first 30 off the line (the most likely to be built without full capability) go into a training

and parts squadron. Then ten 26 aircraft squadrons with 24 active and 2 spares per

squadron. That should at least give great depth and longevity.

It's a shame it isn't coming back.

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I know you don't know. But, spares and squadron aircraft useage and availability don't work like that.

Posted: 6/21/2017 6:00:53 PM EDT

[#39]

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Buy 300 new F-15's as a stop gap measure as we await the F-22 replacement since the production line is still open. We need actual airframes to do the missions. Yes I know they're 2 seat models only but it's still the best thing available that's still being made

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Especially if they improved upon the F-15E, which was already large upgrade from the previous models.

It is not like a new, even better Eagle with modern avionics would have many credible threats against them. I just hate how we sell them like candy these days.....I hope we install some sort of kill switch on those.

When the new F-22s start showing up again then you can retire all the A/C models and maybe some of the oldest Es. Supposedly the airframes on the E were so much improved though they can fly for years to come without the same issues with wing failures.

Posted: 6/21/2017 6:02:42 PM EDT

[#40]

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This thread reminded me that I used to love the YF23 and was really bummed when the F22 was chosen over it. Needs moar sexy YF23 pron.

https://s16-us2.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http%3A%2F%2Fyf23fighter.magicbytodd.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F09%2FYF-23_009_1.jpeg&sp=83216e1e5c4ce45cb8382b240aaf33ca

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it's a pretty airplane, no doubt. but i suspect if it had been selected, we'd have just as many "should have chosen the yf-22" detractors. they'd be calling the f-23 the new f-104, and constantly harping on the -22's superior maneuverability.

i have a sentimental streak for the -23, but i don't know enough to dispute the USAF's decision.

Posted: 6/21/2017 6:05:47 PM EDT

[#41]

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We did.

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Then we should prioritize the 6th gen over more F22s, and see if we can actually field a new fighter jet in less than 30 years.

Posted: 6/21/2017 6:07:37 PM EDT

[#42]

Is there anything or anyone that's a serious contender for air dominance, or will be in the next couple of decades?

Posted: 6/21/2017 6:12:17 PM EDT

[#43]

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Not so fast -

USAF says nyet to F-22s

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Not the Air Farce's call ....

Posted: 6/21/2017 6:14:18 PM EDT

[#44]

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Especially if they improved upon the F-15E, which was already large upgrade from the previous models.

It is not like a new, even better Eagle with modern avionics would have many credible threats against them. I just hate how we sell them like candy these days.....I hope we install some sort of kill switch on those.

When the new F-22s start showing up again then you can retire all the A/C models and maybe some of the oldest Es. Supposedly the airframes on the E were so much improved though they can fly for years to come without the same issues with wing failures.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Buy 300 new F-15's as a stop gap measure as we await the F-22 replacement since the production line is still open. We need actual airframes to do the missions. Yes I know they're 2 seat models only but it's still the best thing available that's still being made

Especially if they improved upon the F-15E, which was already large upgrade from the previous models.

It is not like a new, even better Eagle with modern avionics would have many credible threats against them. I just hate how we sell them like candy these days.....I hope we install some sort of kill switch on those.

When the new F-22s start showing up again then you can retire all the A/C models and maybe some of the oldest Es. Supposedly the airframes on the E were so much improved though they can fly for years to come without the same issues with wing failures.

Yep we are going to need a lot of airframes not just a few dozen stealth fighters in any all out war.

300 brand new F-15s will replace all of the F-15C models currently in service plus double the current F-15 strength if you don't include the Strike Eagles. Reactivate some Cold War squadrons and fill them up.

Have the Navy buy some more Growlers and get the Marine Corps into the game since their Prowlers are going out to compensate for lack of stealth.

Posted: 6/21/2017 6:23:45 PM EDT

[#45]

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Is there anything or anyone that's a serious contender for air dominance, or will be in the next couple of decades?

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Depends. Can the Russians and Indians get their shit together? They certainly have the design knowledge and industry history on the Russian side. I hope they don't, but it's possible. God only knows what the Chicoms have stolen. The J20 doesn't "look" particularly stealthy, but they also have a very different operational concept than we do.

Posted: 6/21/2017 6:35:19 PM EDT

[#46]

at this point fuck it make a few thousand f35s. and a few tens of thousands of drones. You want air superiority, how bout a swarm of networked drones commanded by an f35.

If we really need a more agile jet take what we've learned from the 22 and the 35 and give us the best fucking air superiority jet ever built.

Posted: 6/21/2017 6:49:03 PM EDT

[#47]

Have the Japanese open a Shinshin plant where the Toyota/Chevrolet factory used to be. It will be more reliable and have a higher resale value than American fighters so long as not flown in states that salt the air