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About the same number of service members died in the Cold War as died in Viet Nam.

In the first detailed account from one of those directly involved, the cargo ship's captain said the ACX Crystal had signalled with flashing lights after the Fitzgerald "suddenly" steamed on to a course to cross its path.

The container ship steered hard to starboard (right) to avoid the warship, but hit the Fitzgerald 10 minutes later at 1:30 a.m., according to a copy of Captain Ronald Advincula's report to Japanese ship owner Dainichi Investment Corporation that was seen by Reuters.

The U.S. Navy declined to comment and Reuters was not able to independently verify the account.

Quoted:
That seems an odd statement.

And there's the 1:30 AM time again.

Quoted:
That seems an odd statement.

And there's the 1:30 AM time again.

Quoted:


USS Fitzgerald completely ignored Japanese cargo ship before deadly collision as crew attempted to get the Americans' attention by flashing
lights and sounding horns            

• The ACX Crystal container ship tried to get the attention of the USS Fitzgerald
  before a fatal crash in the early hours of June 17 according to the
  captain
• Captain Ronald Advincula's report claims the USS Fitzgerald ignore his ship as they sounded horns
  and flashed lights to get attention of the missile destroyer
• It was the Fitzgerald that sailed into the container ship's path
  according to the captain of the Japanese boat, who was forced to steer
  hard to starboard 
• The two vessels still crashed 10 minutes after that right turn according to Captain Ronald Advincula's report 
• Seven crew members of the USS Fitzgerald were killed in the crash 
• A spokesman for the U.S. Navy's Seventh Fleet in Yokosuka, the
  Fitzgerald's home port, said he was unable to comment on an ongoing
  investigation 

Link

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Link

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If they went hard to starboard prior to the collision, as their track shows, then how did their port bow impact the destroyer starboard midships?

From the damage and the track I believe that hard starboard turn was post collision in order to open space between the vessels.


That will be confirmed or ruled out when the investigation is complete.

Quoted:


DailyMail link

Quoted:


USS Fitzgerald completely ignored Japanese cargo ship before deadly collision as crew attempted to get the Americans' attention by flashing
lights and sounding horns            

• The ACX Crystal container ship tried to get the attention of the USS Fitzgerald
  before a fatal crash in the early hours of June 17 according to the
  captain
• Captain Ronald Advincula's report claims the USS Fitzgerald ignore his ship as they sounded horns
  and flashed lights to get attention of the missile destroyer
• It was the Fitzgerald that sailed into the container ship's path
  according to the captain of the Japanese boat, who was forced to steer
  hard to starboard 
• The two vessels still crashed 10 minutes after that right turn according to Captain Ronald Advincula's report 
• Seven crew members of the USS Fitzgerald were killed in the crash 
• A spokesman for the U.S. Navy's Seventh Fleet in Yokosuka, the
  Fitzgerald's home port, said he was unable to comment on an ongoing
  investigation 

Link

Quoted:
Couldn't happen any other way.  If their STARBOARD bow hit, then you could be rightly confused.  

Quoted:


This caption doesn't match the notes on the image:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/06/26/19/418DA9B400000578-4640912-image-a-80_1498501201367.jpg

"Desperate to avoid disaster: The ACX Crystal made a U-turn (path above) to try and avoid colliding with the USS Fitzgerald after the crew ignored warnings sent by the ship using lights and horns"

Quoted:
Couldn't happen any other way.  If their STARBOARD bow hit, then you could be rightly confused.  

In extremis situation, and the containership is not maneuverable enough to avoid the collision.  If it was US jurisdiction, the mate would be faulted for waiting too long before maneuvering, even though they were the stand-on vessel.  Being stand-on does not relieve you of responsibility to avoid a collision.  I don't know where he got his license, or what their procedures are, but if he had a US license, he could expect to hear the term "RS4450."

Nonetheless, it's clear FITZGERALD caused the collision.

Quoted:
Flashed lights.. like a signal lamp?  Or did they "flash" spotlights onto the bridge of the DDG?  The latter is a big no-no.

ANd since Skivvy Wavers got disestablished as a rate, is there anyone in the Navy now who can read flashing light messages?  I know on my ships I was the only Officer who could, with the exception of the first Bosun when I was in SAIPAN, and he was a former SM.

Quoted:


Merchant vessels rarely if ever have signal lights. And even though it might be a big No-No technically, throwing a Searchlight into another vessels wheelhouse when they don't answer you on the radio is done all the time. To get them to come up on the radio or wake them up in some cases. Specially fishing boats and sailboats

Quoted:


You want to explain that with MSPaint?
Because the geometry doesn't work.

If the FITZ is on the port side, and the Crystal turned 90 degrees starboard 10 minutes prior to the collision, how did the FITZ teleport in front of the port bow of the Crystal?

The Crystal most likely turned to that south east heading during or immediately following the collision, the autopilot then brought the ship back on its original course.

The FITZ most likely passed in front of the bow of the Crystal crossing from port to starboard and got center punched.

But that doesn't seem plausible of the ship turned 10 minutes prior to the collision. A 90 degree turn at 18 knots with that ship would only take a few minutes.
So she would have been travelling away from the FITZ for several minutes.

UNLESS the FITZ was to the south east heading south and the Crystal turned into the FITZ.

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I had heard that the Signalman rating got merged with the Quartermaster rating.  Do they not train QMs in the duties of the former rating?

Quoted:
During WW II, the liner turned troopship Queen Mary accidentally rammed and sunk her escort, the light C class cruiser HMS Curacao.  Sliced her in half.
Queen Mary as a troopship:

http://ww2today.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/SS-QUEEN-MARY-lying-at-anchor-after-her-arrival-at-Gourock-Bay-595x444.jpg

HMS Curacao:

http://ww2today.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/HMS-Curacoa-595x373.jpg

HMS Curacao wasn't the only warship sunk.  There were others before the 20th Century.  Here's a more recent one:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2017/04/27/russship-large_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqRP1TcW8fhAscsM277V1dJQlgjHCouUg7M08dJRyrjJk.jpg

Sunk by a livestock ship:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2017/04/27/livestock-large_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqxE6WYbzRGIq7DYNoS4-zitkr_28fsuYSluc5COhy1O4.jpg

Here's what happened when the 13k ton heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen rammed the 7,000 ton light cruiser Leipzeg:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/12/51/72/1251728a08e5ebbf48cc38a9df2fbdd0--prinz-eugen-naval-history.jpg

When the Iowa's sister ship, Wisconsin, rammed a destroyer, she needed her bow replaced.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/USS_Wisconson_collision.jpg/220px-USS_Wisconson_collision.jpg
Before: http://www.destroyersonline.com/images/dd510001.jpg
After:  http://www.usswisconsin.org/wp/wp-content/gallery/collision/C-33-USS-Eaton-Norfolk-Naval-Shipyard-05-08-56.jpg

Considering the damage to the Fitzgerald, I'd say she got off lucky.  The damage isn't as bad as in some of the images posted above.

Quoted:
During WW II, the liner turned troopship Queen Mary accidentally rammed and sunk her escort, the light C class cruiser HMS Curacao.  Sliced her in half.
Queen Mary as a troopship:

http://ww2today.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/SS-QUEEN-MARY-lying-at-anchor-after-her-arrival-at-Gourock-Bay-595x444.jpg

HMS Curacao:

http://ww2today.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/HMS-Curacoa-595x373.jpg

HMS Curacao wasn't the only warship sunk.  There were others before the 20th Century.  Here's a more recent one:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2017/04/27/russship-large_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqRP1TcW8fhAscsM277V1dJQlgjHCouUg7M08dJRyrjJk.jpg

Sunk by a livestock ship:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2017/04/27/livestock-large_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqxE6WYbzRGIq7DYNoS4-zitkr_28fsuYSluc5COhy1O4.jpg

Here's what happened when the 13k ton heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen rammed the 7,000 ton light cruiser Leipzeg:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/12/51/72/1251728a08e5ebbf48cc38a9df2fbdd0--prinz-eugen-naval-history.jpg

When the Iowa's sister ship, Wisconsin, rammed a destroyer, she needed her bow replaced.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/USS_Wisconson_collision.jpg/220px-USS_Wisconson_collision.jpg
Before: http://www.destroyersonline.com/images/dd510001.jpg
After:  http://www.usswisconsin.org/wp/wp-content/gallery/collision/C-33-USS-Eaton-Norfolk-Naval-Shipyard-05-08-56.jpg

Considering the damage to the Fitzgerald, I'd say she got off lucky.  The damage isn't as bad as in some of the images posted above.

Quoted:

I'm not going to go back and read 19 pages of guys knowing what they are talking about, trying to explain to guys that only know that the pointy end is the bow and blunt end is the stern, bs from guys that have never been or a real Navy ship or merchie.

My bona fides, Surface Warfare Officer, lots of CICWO and OOD/JOOD watches.  Based on what we used many years ago.  

The Captains Standing Orders and Night Orders lay down his expectations, especially when he should be called.  I've seen a fair number, none of them say "Come peel me out after a merchie crushes my Sea Cabin."  They will have a basic distance and time for a CPA to call him and notify him.  Night Orders might say to the effect.  "We will be in a high traffic density area tonight.  Keep an especially tight watch and notify me of any CPA within 5000 yards and call me to the bridge for any within 2000 yards."

How a ship got that close is extremely confusing.

Assumptions the merchie deck watch was under-manned, not paying attention, and possibly under some kind of faulty collision avoidance system.  Safe assumptions to make.  Also (again based on  some old operating experience) he may have been drilling holes in the ocean waiting either for daylight, close to daylight or a specific time to enter Tokyo Bay Vessel Traffic System

Merchies usually have two different surface radar systems.  This should give them a good picture, they have vertical separation and frequency separation,  One may be running raw video, the other processed video.  Video processing can remove sea scatter, highlight actual recurring solid returns.  Sea scatter is the return that you get from a swell or wave returning a signal, that return won't be there the next time the radar sweeps that bearing, so raw video gets a lot of these bounces.  The return from a ship will be there every sweep, small objects, most sweeps.  Processing the video brings out these repetitive returns and highlights them.

navy ships usually have at least two surface radars.  One is probably a Navy designed and built, the other a standard commercial off the shelf.  Both the bridge and CIC get the naval radar signals, Maybe the bridge only gets the commercial radar.  Two repeaters at least(scopes) In my day, the OOD would have one set up as he liked it.   Range 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 miles, we usually left one 8 or 16 miles, and tracked contacts using a grease pencil.  Only the OOD changed the range and then it was changed back.  The other could be adjusted but usually at 8 miles, again tracking but you made sure that the track marks were at the same range.    No idea what displays they are using, what the processed video is and if tracks are maintained automatically.  If I was an OOD, I'd keep at least one display on raw video.

In addition the Bridge Watch will have a Port and Starboard Lookout, a Quartermaster of the Watch and a Bosun's Mate of the Watch, Messenger of the Watch, Bridge
Talker, one combined Helm and Lee Helm.  (the guy steering and giving throttle orders to the engineering spaces) plaus there is probably a Signalman of the Watch nearby. So under normal conditions 3-5 sets of Mk 1 Eyeballs and at least two on the radars. The OOD, JOOD and Lookouts all have 20x binoculars, each bridge wing ahs a set of big eyes (IIRC 50c) binoculars

CIC has radar inputs, various manual and automated tracking systems.  CiC Watch Officer, CIC Supervisor, Surface Tracker, and a few others    (Not that it was legal, but a few times I went from our CIC to the Bridge and pointed out to the Bridge Watch, thats contact XYZ, Contact XYY, etc)  generally when they were Navy ships maneuvering out aways and they couldn't tell who ended up where in line, etc.    But our CIC was about 15 feet off the bridge.  

Standard  Radar picks up the contact before the lookout Radar is higher and has longer radar horizon by a few miles before the lookouts can be expected to spot it.  "Bridge, Combat, New Contact Skunk 1234, range 48,000 yds, bearing 235 degrees."  "Bridge, Aye'  the Bridge Talker announces it and using grease pencil puts in on the Skunk board.  The OOD or JOOD or both acknowledge it, or he keeps announcing until it gets acknowledged.  The OOD or JOOD check to see if they have it on radar yet.  If they are at 16 miles, they won't, they may switch up to 32 and see it.

Watch repeat as necessary.  CIC will develop and CPA, course and speed for the contact.  The JOOD or OOD will compute it also manually or should even if the Combat System does it for them  The bridge watch does it not only for their benefit, but to keep CIC honest and double check the processed video and system generated track data.  If the CPA meets the Standing or Night Order criteria the BRIDGE notifies the CO.

And this continues all night.  In a heavy traffic area they might set a Special Sea Detail, which adds more bridge and CIC watch standers to handle the additional tracking load.  The CO or XO might be there, one on the bridge and one in combat, and a more senior officer might be OOD or on the bridge.

At some point the Skunk, will be given a system track number generated by the ships combat system, and possibly a force track number if there are multiple ships in the area  

My gut feel is they were running with only the normal watches in CIC and on the Bridge, and it was busy enough that the OOD and JOOD were tracking manually using their eyes and the peloruses (a gyro-compass repeater) with in effect a sight on top that allows the user to get both a true bearing to the contact based on the gyro-compass and a relative bearing (degrees off the bow)Running lights, Port is red, starboard is green, if you see red running lights it is your duty to maneuver to avoid.  (But that vessel is obligated to maintain course and speed)  And at some point the Bridge Watch and CIC Watch got confused as to which Skunk/Track Number was which.

Should the CIC Officer call the CO to the Bridge if he thinks the Bridge Watch is endangering the ship?  My feeling is Yes.  I never did, but I once told an Admiral that I was sorry I couldn't answer his question at the time and suggested respfully that he have his OSC use the force console behind us in CIC because I was feeding information on contacts in Hong Kong Harbor to my CO, CICWO and the OOD (and frankly I don't care how close they are getting to other ships, they aren't my problem.)

My gut feel is that OOD, JOOD and CIC were disconnected on which contacts they were talking about.

Can two ships appear as one blip on a radar screen? yes with both raw and processed video.  Especially when a smaller ship is in the shadow of another ship.  However, in normal conditions you should see two tracks merging(and getting real concerned about a collision which might be sufficient for a phone call to the CO) and you should remember that that blip is a merged contact.  

Air Search radars are usually not good for tracking in close surface contacts.

So the Bridge Watch should be seeing at least running lights if not more lights on each ship corresponding to a radar contact and it's associated track number  

Once things didn't seem right the CO should have been called to the Bridge.  In any case, any ship within 5000 yards (2.5 nautical miles) the CO should have been called.  

Merchies in close are kind of like aircraft carriers, they maneuver without warning, or might.  Merchies can't maneuver very well or quickly, and you can and had better safely assume their bridge watch is not standing a correct and effective watch.  



I can't see any reason for the ships to get that close together without the CO on the Bridge.  Even if they wee running radar silent, there should have been an increased bridge watch.  

I

Quoted:


You responded only to the second half of my sentence below, without the stipulating condition in the first half,  which is what is causing my confusion.






My point, the Crystal Captain is lying or misremembering details when he states he turned to starboard 10 minutes prior to the collision.
That doesn't pass the time-space-geometry test.

Quoted:
No, I agree.  Let's be very generous and say he's misremembering the timeline, because you're right.. 10 minutes even in a gentle turn would at worst result in a glancing blow. meeting side to side.  You have to be much closer before starting the turn to get a bow-to side collision.   To visualize, if the Crystal is your right hand and FITZ is your left, hold them at a 90 degree angle, with your left slightly lower.  Move them toward each other at about the same speed, then start slowly turning your right hand to the right.  There you have it... port bow impacting the starboard side of your left hand.  If FITZ increased speed a little, that would tend to nullify the gentle turn by Crystal.

Quoted:


If you initiated a turn 10 minutes before CPA and you still have a collision it had to have been intentional, unless Fitzgerald was doing some wild manuevers. If at 18 knots and 10 minutes time you're unable to change the location of your ship by more than a few hundred feet... I dunno man, doesn't pass the sniff test.

Quoted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cK0kolfwUw

Quoted:
I'm not sure, and I really don't know what I'm talking about...I know we have Merchies onboard here...

But...When a container ship says that it's making a turn, I don't think it's like what many of you are thinking.  Sharp turns cause the ship to list--sometimes severely--and I don't think a fully-loaded container ship can turn very quickly at all at speed without losing cargo.  I offer that maybe the container ship wasn't turning as quickly as many surmise.

Quoted:
I'm not sure, and I really don't know what I'm talking about...I know we have Merchies onboard here...

But...When a container ship says that it's making a turn, I don't think it's like what many of you are thinking.  Sharp turns cause the ship to list--sometimes severely--and I don't think a fully-loaded container ship can turn very quickly at all at speed without losing cargo.  I offer that maybe the container ship wasn't turning as quickly as many surmise.

Quoted:

http://shipsbusiness.com/turning-circle.html

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.