That might be  true and I only had a Reserve Inactive Commission but I never got the feeling that the USN was very forgiving and they need somebody to blame. And in the end it is usually the Captain. If the OOW ignored his orders and his orders were all found to be in order he will have a better shot at being let off the hook. If he told them not to bother him under any circumstances , he is toast.

I also wonder if the fact the captain had only been in command since May 13th will have any bearing in what happens.

Wasn't he the XO before becoming CO, though?

I get that part. But how many people "on watch" had to collectively fuck up to allow this to happen? It's not like one guy had to hit the shutter and lost track of what was going on.
I've navigated boats and planes all over the place, and looking out the ducking window does wonders. 
Same as that minesweeper deal a while ago, somebody looking out the window could have prevented that loss, also. Navigating a vessel is not that complicated, if you just follow proven procedures. And one of them is looking out the fucking window.

I get that part. But how many people "on watch" had to collectively fuck up to allow this to happen? It's not like one guy had to hit the shutter and lost track of what was going on.
I've navigated boats and planes all over the place, and looking out the ducking window does wonders. 
Same as that minesweeper deal a while ago, somebody looking out the window could have prevented that loss, also. Navigating a vessel is not that complicated, if you just follow proven procedures. And one of them is looking out the fucking window.

I just checked, and you're right. He became the XO in Nov 15.

Actually christened named or "named for planning purposes" on paper?  Planned names can change.

He is allowed to sleep, but yeah, he's screwed.

They may pity him because of his injuries, but they won't forgive him because he was responsible for training those watchstanders. And while he was new in command, he was XO before fleeting up, so he'd been onboard for about 2 years.  Zero defects.

Forward and Aft Lookouts, the OOD, Conning Officer, all the OS's on the bridge and CIC, at least. All the folks with binos plus all the folks with a radar that would tell them the CPA was zero (does not apply to all the OS's, some are tasked to air tracking, etc.).

On my ship it would have been close to a dozen people who would have to all fail to notice a fat freighter on a constant bearing while getting closer.

I don't think they would have seen they were off course by "looking out the window" on the Guardian.

Disregard, understood the reference after the fact, thought we were still talking about Fitzgerald.

As I've said before the physics says it's possible. Whether or not that actually happened or not is another story. Personally, I don't buy it because like EESmtih said, there usually comes point when it does become detectable and you have time to react and that has generally been my experience.

Personally, I think human error is going to be to blame in this event and not some equipment malfunction or 1 in a million passing. It won't surprise me if we learn that there was a tired watch stander sitting in front of the surface console and everything doesn't get tracked like it should because they're tired and they make a mistake. The track supervisor who should be looking back and forth at the surface and air picture misses it because they're too busy with something else. And the watch supervisor is too busy with something else to make sure to look over the surface guy's shoulder from time to time. So what happens is that the cargo ship never makes it onto the bridge's contact board so the bridge crew assumes everything is hunky dory.

Speculation and conjecture on my part, but I've seen that scenario play out more than once.

Congress  notified of the Navy's intent.

Kharn

That's a somewhat different situation.

Shit I have my tugboat's cloaking device on right now, it hides the rust you see.

You can't see underwater obstacles at night?

The only times I found myself in CIC was getting signatures for my ESWS or bringing the CHENG night orders to sign. When a DDG or CG is pretty close to homeport like this, do they have SPY, C&D and all that shit up and running?

Wanna hear ironic? The Fitzgerald's CO also commanded that minesweeper. It was before the grounding and subsequent dismantling, but still... Weird coincidence.

So it's a stealth container ship?  The Russians you think?

A Jonah?

They have them in submarines. They're not submersible masks, afaik, but the air manifold part is extant design.  There may be a technical reason it's untenable but it's not the reasons you listed.

I don't think he was.
http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=74930

"The commanding officer of ex-Guardian, Lt. Cmdr. Mark Rice, the executive officer/navigator Lt. Daniel Tyler, the assistant navigator, and the officer of the deck at the time of the grounding were relieved of their duties on April 3 by Rear Adm. Jeffrey A. Harley, commander, Expeditionary Strike Group (ESG) 7. Further administrative action is under consideration."

He wasn't captain at the time, but Benson commanded the Guardian from 2008-2010.
http://www.public.navy.mil/surfor/ddg62/Pages/bio2-28November2015-11March2017.aspx

How many people would have to screw up for this to happen?

Well, remember the live nukes flown from Minot to Louisiana?

Dozens of people missed it and assumed someone else did their job, so there was no need to check for a warhead prior to loading it on the B52.

Terrible chain of events, but it happens.

Bro. A phased already radar that can track multiple high speed targets at 300 miles could easily miss a cargo ship at 5 miles. Just like the f22 bro!

If the CG can track container ships with old ass SLQ32 and MK92's I think a guided missile destroyer can hande it.

1) If it's on.

2) If someone's looking at it.

We had that discussion about the Guardian in that thread.
There was a big bright blinky thingy well within range,
that would have been visible for quite a while, and simple compass bearings
taken of the light would have shown that something was amiss.

If the light was supposed to be off the stbd bow, but is clearly off the port bow,
(or the reverse, I forget the specifics) then something is fucky.
A compass bearing on a light, or a ship, will show relative motion easily,
but it does include 'looking out the window' to be effective.

Lot of potential links in the error chain.

If the CPA was less than, say, 10k yds the CO should have gotten the contact report. If it was CBDR, doubly so along with the Watch Sup running a triplicate MOBOARD.

What was the bridge/CIC doing at 10k? 5k? 2k? Did their CPAs concur? Did the SWS put a track on the contact so it would show up on the surface plot? At what point did they realize things were going sideways and why didn't they slow to re-assess or buy more time?

What in the blue fuck was the SUWC doing? That's usually a CPO or second tour DIVO or a shit hot FCPO. The Porter investigation was not kind to that watchstation. What were the other warfare coordinators doing?

Zero chance they didn't see the contact on either 67 or 73. Zero.

Smells like complacency, lack of a questioning mindset and failure to follow standing orders. With 7 fuckin people dead.

That was a case of poor navigation, complacency, and using the wrong scale chart wasn't it?

Is it possible for two ships to be so close that radar shows them as one?

Yes, yes, and yes.
Actually, the electronic chart had the reef displaced by 8 miles, IIRC. but only on one scale chart.
The other scale chart in use had it correct. Not sure how that works, but it was explained by Josh, and others,
in that thread. The Navy had just recently transitioned to 100% electronic charts. No more paper.

Still doesn't explain what happened when the blinking nav light showed up on the port bow, when it was supposed to be
to stbd. When what you see out the window, doesn't match what you are expecting, it's time to start thinking.

Compasses, windows, eyeballs don't usually lie.
I dont give a fuck what the chart or other electronics say, a magnetic compass gives a pretty good position line off a lighthouse.
And islands don't usually move, so time for some head-scratching

It's a completely different situation.  Since you were watching from the flight deck rktman, I presume you've never been the conning officer for an UNREP.  Weird things can happen when the distance between ships is measured in double digit feet.  You have to be pretty close to get the rigs and the cargo across quickly, but you're steering with half-degree rudder orders.  Get too close (which is not much different from too far away) and the suction between the ships draws them together - and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

Don't put a lot of faith in SLQ-32.  I saw it ID a CG Cutter as a Soviet AGI, the AGI as a fishing boat, and the fishing boat as the CGC.

Meh, mine always tracked correctly. Not like we're firing missiles at people or anything

Let's drop the slq discussion please.

Still screwed...it's just a weird Navy Thing.

The USN Captain who shot down a Iranian Airliner got a fricken Medal go figure.....

Absolutely.

But it's evidence that any time humans are involved, there a chance for human error.

A lot of people are saying "How the hell do you miss a giant cargo ship"

I'm saying we hit our oiler, in broad daylight, with no fewer than 500 sailors topside between the two ships.  

People fuck up.

I'm not saying that if I were on the bridge things would have been different.  I'd probably fuck up too.

I'm not going to go back and read 19 pages of guys knowing what they are talking about, trying to explain to guys that only know that the pointy end is the bow and blunt end is the stern, bs from guys that have never been or a real Navy ship or merchie.

My bona fides, Surface Warfare Officer, lots of CICWO and OOD/JOOD watches.  Based on what we used many years ago.  

The Captains Standing Orders and Night Orders lay down his expectations, especially when he should be called.  I've seen a fair number, none of them say "Come peel me out after a merchie crushes my Sea Cabin."  They will have a basic distance and time for a CPA to call him and notify him.  Night Orders might say to the effect.  "We will be in a high traffic density area tonight.  Keep an especially tight watch and notify me of any CPA within 5000 yards and call me to the bridge for any within 2000 yards."

How a ship got that close is extremely confusing.

Assumptions the merchie deck watch was under-manned, not paying attention, and possibly under some kind of faulty collision avoidance system.  Safe assumptions to make.  Also (again based on  some old operating experience) he may have been drilling holes in the ocean waiting either for daylight, close to daylight or a specific time to enter Tokyo Bay Vessel Traffic System

Merchies usually have two different surface radar systems.  This should give them a good picture, they have vertical separation and frequency separation,  One may be running raw video, the other processed video.  Video processing can remove sea scatter, highlight actual recurring solid returns.  Sea scatter is the return that you get from a swell or wave returning a signal, that return won't be there the next time the radar sweeps that bearing, so raw video gets a lot of these bounces.  The return from a ship will be there every sweep, small objects, most sweeps.  Processing the video brings out these repetitive returns and highlights them.

navy ships usually have at least two surface radars.  One is probably a Navy designed and built, the other a standard commercial off the shelf.  Both the bridge and CIC get the naval radar signals, Maybe the bridge only gets the commercial radar.  Two repeaters at least(scopes) In my day, the OOD would have one set up as he liked it.   Range 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 miles, we usually left one 8 or 16 miles, and tracked contacts using a grease pencil.  Only the OOD changed the range and then it was changed back.  The other could be adjusted but usually at 8 miles, again tracking but you made sure that the track marks were at the same range.    No idea what displays they are using, what the processed video is and if tracks are maintained automatically.  If I was an OOD, I'd keep at least one display on raw video.

In addition the Bridge Watch will have a Port and Starboard Lookout, a Quartermaster of the Watch and a Bosun's Mate of the Watch, Messenger of the Watch, Bridge
Talker, one combined Helm and Lee Helm.  (the guy steering and giving throttle orders to the engineering spaces) plaus there is probably a Signalman of the Watch nearby. So under normal conditions 3-5 sets of Mk 1 Eyeballs and at least two on the radars. The OOD, JOOD and Lookouts all have 20x binoculars, each bridge wing ahs a set of big eyes (IIRC 50c) binoculars

CIC has radar inputs, various manual and automated tracking systems.  CiC Watch Officer, CIC Supervisor, Surface Tracker, and a few others    (Not that it was legal, but a few times I went from our CIC to the Bridge and pointed out to the Bridge Watch, thats contact XYZ, Contact XYY, etc)  generally when they were Navy ships maneuvering out aways and they couldn't tell who ended up where in line, etc.    But our CIC was about 15 feet off the bridge.  

Standard  Radar picks up the contact before the lookout Radar is higher and has longer radar horizon by a few miles before the lookouts can be expected to spot it.  "Bridge, Combat, New Contact Skunk 1234, range 48,000 yds, bearing 235 degrees."  "Bridge, Aye'  the Bridge Talker announces it and using grease pencil puts in on the Skunk board.  The OOD or JOOD or both acknowledge it, or he keeps announcing until it gets acknowledged.  The OOD or JOOD check to see if they have it on radar yet.  If they are at 16 miles, they won't, they may switch up to 32 and see it.

Watch repeat as necessary.  CIC will develop and CPA, course and speed for the contact.  The JOOD or OOD will compute it also manually or should even if the Combat System does it for them  The bridge watch does it not only for their benefit, but to keep CIC honest and double check the processed video and system generated track data.  If the CPA meets the Standing or Night Order criteria the BRIDGE notifies the CO.

And this continues all night.  In a heavy traffic area they might set a Special Sea Detail, which adds more bridge and CIC watch standers to handle the additional tracking load.  The CO or XO might be there, one on the bridge and one in combat, and a more senior officer might be OOD or on the bridge.

At some point the Skunk, will be given a system track number generated by the ships combat system, and possibly a force track number if there are multiple ships in the area  

My gut feel is they were running with only the normal watches in CIC and on the Bridge, and it was busy enough that the OOD and JOOD were tracking manually using their eyes and the peloruses (a gyro-compass repeater) with in effect a sight on top that allows the user to get both a true bearing to the contact based on the gyro-compass and a relative bearing (degrees off the bow)Running lights, Port is red, starboard is green, if you see red running lights it is your duty to maneuver to avoid.  (But that vessel is obligated to maintain course and speed)  And at some point the Bridge Watch and CIC Watch got confused as to which Skunk/Track Number was which.

Should the CIC Officer call the CO to the Bridge if he thinks the Bridge Watch is endangering the ship?  My feeling is Yes.  I never did, but I once told an Admiral that I was sorry I couldn't answer his question at the time and suggested respfully that he have his OSC use the force console behind us in CIC because I was feeding information on contacts in Hong Kong Harbor to my CO, CICWO and the OOD (and frankly I don't care how close they are getting to other ships, they aren't my problem.)

My gut feel is that OOD, JOOD and CIC were disconnected on which contacts they were talking about.

Can two ships appear as one blip on a radar screen? yes with both raw and processed video.  Especially when a smaller ship is in the shadow of another ship.  However, in normal conditions you should see two tracks merging(and getting real concerned about a collision which might be sufficient for a phone call to the CO) and you should remember that that blip is a merged contact.  

Air Search radars are usually not good for tracking in close surface contacts.

So the Bridge Watch should be seeing at least running lights if not more lights on each ship corresponding to a radar contact and it's associated track number  

Once things didn't seem right the CO should have been called to the Bridge.  In any case, any ship within 5000 yards (2.5 nautical miles) the CO should have been called.  

Merchies in close are kind of like aircraft carriers, they maneuver without warning, or might.  Merchies can't maneuver very well or quickly, and you can and had better safely assume their bridge watch is not standing a correct and effective watch.  



I can't see any reason for the ships to get that close together without the CO on the Bridge.  Even if they wee running radar silent, there should have been an increased bridge watch.  

I

 

Completely the same, except when you hit the oiler, or just before that you had unrep rigs between the ships, several messenger lines,  a distance line between the ships with flags showing the distance, the oiler was at a known course and speed and there was a significan venturi effect trying to pull the two ships together, and both captains were on their bridge wings.  But other than that the same.

Just one, the OOD.

Yep.  "Are you sad that this will be your last cruise, Sixtigers(AW/(SW)?"

"Nope."

Wife says "Think you'll ever take me on a cruise?"

"Nope.  Sea counter stays at 4 and 10 and holding."

Guys on mid-watch are fatigued + miscommunication + strong case of gethomeitis = cascade of fuckups = crash.

How well lit would that container ship have been lit?

I don't think I have seen a container ship on the water at night, but every merchant ship I have seen at night has been lit up pretty well

Not to mention the old SPS-64, SPS-73 surface radars. I think SPS-78's are current.

Most of my time at sea I was on the flight deck at night.  Hard to answer this question.  Every ship I saw was lit up very well...but that only means that it's possible I didn't notice any that weren't lit up.  We don't run with lights on at night--even during flight ops.

I'm not a sailor, but the few times I've been near shipping lanes in a small boat at night have been fucking terrifying because ships turn all those flood lights off when they're underway at night.

If you're not seriously paying attention, all of a sudden there's a huge black hulk coming out of the darkness and you better get the hell out of the way right now.

Thank you for the clear, detailed explanation of what goes on with a standard watch procedure.

So, at least 5 different people should have had an eyeball on either a radar blip, a track plot,
a CPA calculation, and at least 2 white lights, (bow and masthead) and a fucking big red light.

Any one of those devices should have shook the boss out of bed.

In fact, it's kinda hard to understand just how this fuck-up happened. How could so many people be
out-of-touch to allow this collision to occur?
If anybody has a bearing on a ship /light with a Pelorus, does that not plug it into the 'system' of maintaining
a plot of the contact. Even a hand-bearing compass, or shit, sighting over the main compass is enough to
avoid a fucking collision.

I think that this ship was not detected at all.
A fucking 'stealth' container ship.

Because if it was detected, then somebody, as well as the OOD, really fucked up.

Either that, or "Fuck You, I'm the US NAVY, you get outa my way."
Sorta like the old Lighthouse story.

There's several SWO's, Merchant Sailors, Tugboat operators, other commercial and .mil people
in this thread. Lots of people far more skilled than this poor, old, retired, racing sailboat captain.

Can somebody, anybody, come up with a plausible scenario as to how this happened.

Because I cannot.