I have a 2001 cherokee sport 4x4, 2006 grand cherokee limited 4x4, and a 2016 4runner trail premium 4x4.

The Grand Cherokee definitely feels most like a car. All of them have on-road treads. The only one that I have taken through any intense shit is the 2001 cherokee and it has never failed. It has been on some crazy winter territory in the rockies, some slick as grease clay mud in the carolinas, etc.

I was once stuck in a blizzard in southern illinois and kentucky just after christmas, interstate was completely jammed with cars, moved 20 miles in 24 hours, people had campfires on the middle of the interstate. That was the worst driving experience of my life and all the 4wd drive capability in the world does you no good when you are bumper to bumper in kias, crossovers, and minivans.

Same problem and solution but blue. LOVE it! In its two month life it's already seen 150 miles of trail and hauled the trailer 4 times

I still can't believe the "new" cherokee, why just why

i have had my 2016 4runner since october. made three trips to to smokies and one to atlanta and just hit 3100 miles. commute is too short to hit the warranty mileage in the warranty time.

teenage girls need transportation too.

Put a shell on a Raptor and have the best of all worlds.   No - not really. 

Crossovers have their place.  I shopped for one, once.  The one I was interested was x'ed off the list because it was a 4 passenger.  Went to the Nissan dealer, negotiated an Exterra, went to bank and got the financing and went back to get the Nissan and they changed the price by 3k - told them they were fucking crooks and I would never own a Nissan if I had to deal with a dealer and service department with their ethics.  Ended up getting a Chevy truck (the wrong Chevy truck), which resulted to a quick switch to a Ford truck.  Almost upgraded to the F250 diesel but it cost to much...  Now looking at that upgrade for 2x what it was then.

One issue with camper shells.  I camped almost a month a year in my Dodge (that started the above musical vehicles).  It works great with a 6.5' bed.  It sucks with a 5.5' bed - which the F150 had.

It's called "progress" Jethro.

The new Cherokees are fun to drive and have a great array of conveniences. Probably the same thing people said when the original Cherokee debuted.

That's what Wranglers are for.

I still much prefer the crash safety of my truck built on a frame.

Look at all the cross overs.
They work well enough for most people.

yes and with fold down rear seats they have more covered cargo space than most cars. they are practical and convenient but they have nowhere near the cargo or passenger space of vans or minivans. they are cosmetically suv.

the death of the fullsize van is as sad as the death of the full frame SUV.

the boxed chassis on my 55 belair 2dhdtp is also pretty stout. they use less metal.

Expedition is what you seek.

Only asian housewives drive 4runners around here....as in the ones that work in cheap nail salons.  The ones at the good nail salons drive those Lexus SUV things.

Lake Como at the top of poughkeepsie gulch

*shrug* Maybe. I know it ended up being loved by off roaders. It just seems like every time Jeep debuts something new the Wrangler-Only Patrol steps in and says it was better in the old days.

Which is humorous because half or more of the Wrangers I see around my AO are driven by young women whose idea of offroading is accidentally backing onto their lawn. Lots of squeaky clean Wranglers.

Not a whole lot of off road opportunities in Michigan. While there are still squeaky clean ones around here, most get used off road. Some people get hard lessons on the difference between a cross over and a real SUV.

Stop whining and buy a 1/2 ton pickup and throw a topper on the bed.
The new F-150's are damned nice...

We are going to have to report you to site staff....... for the copyright infringement on the bolt face logo and your wheels.....  

But your 4x4 wont get you here

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Or here

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or here

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All depends what ya want

The new sploder looks great and costs like 1/2 to 3/4 of a 4runner.

The Explorer?

It's among the better handling SUVs out there. The only thing hurting civilian Explorers are the engine options; the 2.0 is a sick joke in an Explorer. The 3.5 NA is adequate, nothing more. The 3.5 EB is boner-inducing, but then you have to get the spendy Sport.

The ultimate sweet spot is the Police Interceptor Utility, which generally ships with the 3.7 NA. Plenty of power for fun, not noticeably worse MPG than the 3.5 NA. Too bad you can't get a civilian Explorer with it...

I have an Acadia, if fucking rocks.  

Yeah, maybe he's confused.  The first year was dogged in a couple of magazine reviews for too much body roll and having a generally heavy feel.  Handling was recalibrated for the 2nd model year and it handles pretty damn good now for an SUV.

This.  While it was unibody, and sprung soft.......it had everything you needed to make a decent off-road vehicle out of the gate.  Low end tq, short wheel base, solid axles, etc.

The new ones.....yeah, the trail hawk might be passible in most situations that aren't "requiring a built-up specialty vehicle" to tackle.....it does it in a way that is going to cost $$$$$ to maintain compared to a traditional set-up.

The explorer is not a SUV any longer.  It's a crossover POS which means it's a station wagon with AWD that sits a bit higher than a car..  I've driven the one we have in our fleet.....it's classified as "highway use only" in a fleet of vehicles that are driven on dirt on most every trip that they leave on.

WTF.....I've never been "rock climbing" in my life.  And I've off-roaded more than 95% of the american public.  

What I need is the ability to keep all 4 tires on the ground more often than not, locking axles in case of mud or terrain that is deeper than my articulation, a low range low enough that power is INSTANT, and enough low end tq that I get power NOW, and enough approach/break/departure angle that changes in terrain don't hamper my ability to drive over them.  

Most vehicles today do not have the approach/break/departure angles required to drive where I want to take them.  IFA vehicles can do it (toyota 4runner/taco, for example), but most of the "SUVs" of today do not have that.  Rocks that my truck's clearance allows me to drive over without even touching will take out the bumper on these stupid things.  

In the evolution of the "SUV," the true off-roader had their vehicles usurped and turned into faux-masculine, sort of taller than a station-wagon....station wagon that doesn't do what a SUV was created to do........

*"True off-roader" is someone who uses their vehicle off of maintained or semi-maintained dirt roads that typical car cannot make it down (yes, even the venerable subaru).

I like station wagons too.  Especially the hot ones.  

The reason I'm upset is that because of the rest of the fools out there that believe their vehicle says something about them even if they never actually make use of 2/3rds of the capability vehicle they bought......we lost the SUV, and now days, is essentially a station wagon but it's shittier on the road and not really that capable off-road.  If I wanted a station wagon, I'd prefer it to stick to a paved road like glue, and got to 75mph fast enough to make you giggle.

If I'm looking for a SUV, I'm looking for the ability to be bounced around on crappy roads, get muddy, carry loads of odd stuff over those crappy "roads", and not be stopped by relatively minor obstacles.

In other words, I don't want to have to buy a UTV and tow it to the road I want to travel because my "suv" can't make it.

Just like a Lotus Elise handles pretty good for a 1 ton truck. A current model Ford Explorer is not an SUV.

I thought the Tahoe was midsize

Oh for Pete's sake.

What vehicle has been usurped?

The market is basically Land Rover versions, Toyota versions, and Jeep versions. Let's get in the Way-Back Machine and head back to 1984. Let's see the offroad choices...oh ya, Land Rover versions, Toyota versions, and Jeep versions.

OP and this guy are like two old men. Stop whining and get with the times. Still some options if you want that rugged look. Do you even leather vest bro?

Unfortunately I think with all the EPA regs, crash safety regs, emissions regs,  these are going to be the only way in the future to get offroad:



Some are street legal now.

Not a whole lot different size wise then a Willey's or a Samurai.

Yes, this.  I don't understand the purpose of modifying your daily driver to perform better off road.  If you are required to get into some remote areas for work or something, sure.  Otherwise all you are doing is compromising the on road driveability of a vehicle that is used on road 95% of the time. That $5k to $10k you dropped in Wrangler mods could have bought you something that would go places no street legal vehicle could dream of.  But, sadly, for most it is about image and nothing more.

If you want to offroad, get a vehicle purpose built for it, whether it's an ATV, dirt bike, side by side, or even a purpose built Jeep or Sami that is a 2nd or 3rd vehicle.

While I agree with OP for the most part, I will admit to having a crossover in the driveway: A 2008 Lexus RX 350. I have taken it on some surprisingly abusive non roads, and it has don pretty well. Im impressed with the thing. It is my wife's daily driver.

When my '92 4Runner shit the bed with its second blown head hasket, I was on a search for something else and found a low mileage 2002 Toyota Sequioa. It is an actual truck, beastly and tough enough to do what I want it to do. It is true that the newer models of even this vehicle have been vagi-fied into mundane mall crawlers though so I guess I am doomed to always be seeking rare, old, low miles pre owned SUVs since the choices are indeed so limited.

For the record I would like to state the my most hated, ugliest of all time, and truly fucking puke inducing crossovers ok the road in my opinion:


The GMC Terrain with its wheel hugging tall square wheel wells and super low air dam spoilers has to be the ugliest fucking thing I have ever seen and I just stare in wonder at the drivers of these and wonder....how? Why?

Close second is the Acadia. I might actually have these two confused but either way.

I just rented a 17 Explorer for my annual trip to Yellowstone/Grand Teton and I drove it off-road quite a bit on that trip, as well as in snow and ice.  It handles well, it took the very rough "four wheel drive recommended" dirt tracks easily and it was also damned comfortable and roomy.  Gas mileage averaged about 21mpg too.  I might buy one later this year, when I'll be in the market.

The Sport doesn't...

So what is the ideal SUV for you guys?

I would like a vechicle about the size of the 2nd or 3rd gen 4Runner, similar clearance,
Rear door with mounted spare, ladder, roof rack,
About 25mpg,
300hp, 300tq,
With true low,
RWD or full time AWD,
That actually looks like a SUV.
With a 20 or larger gallon tank.
For about 40k.

I could not find one.
Actual 4Runner is bigger, with a rear I don't like, and not a competitive engine these days.
FJ discontinued.  Stupid rear doors and tiny gas tank.
XTerra discontinued.

Closest I could come was a grand Cherokee with the V6.
I am not wowed by the styling and do not like the hatchback.

Prado is only here as a Lexus and retarded grille.

Many former SUVs are not anymore.

Many crossovers that offered a decent entry AWD for your kids have lost useful features, like no more doors/rear spares on the RAV4 or CRV.

Good Japanese reliability and good warranty vs US known crap reliability for some vehicles.


The second gen 4Runner was about 67" wide, 176" long, 66" tall, and about a 104" wheelbase at 4200 pounds or so.  I had the V6 automatic 4WD one.
The current 4Runner is about 10" wider, 6" more wheelbase, and close to a foot and a half longer and 600lb or so heavier.  Offered with an aging engine and drivetrain.

That example is what had killed the mid sized SUV.  They kept getting bigger and bigger.
There is a huge market that does not want a damn crossover, but they also don't want an SUV that is 16 feet long.

Give the market a True mid sized SUV,  with rear doors, roof rack, ladder, tow package, rear mounted spare,  a little more than 6 feet wide, 15 feet long, weighing 4400 pounds or less and maybe they would not be dying off.
And make it look like a damn SUV.  And don't put a tiny gas tank and not real rear doors on it.

It's not that people do not want a LR4, Land Cruiser, etc.
It's just that they want them a little smaller with better mileage, not luxury priced.
But instead of reacting to market loss by giving us the SUV, we end up with more crossovers.
In 2017 they best they can do is give us a bunch of American Eagles?
How about just go back to true mid sizes on some SUVs?

Just like people wanted the Nissan Patrol in the US.  Like the cool older generation or two.  Not the 200inch long styling abortion they brought in as an Armada/Infinity.


And ther is another market that needs to be tapped here.
Too many dipshits towing to heavy on 1/2 tons, too many people towing dinky crap on 3/4 tons, and a whole bunch of people that might could get by on a 1/2 but are pushing it, but their 3/4 ton is a pain in the ass most of the time although better for towing.
Give us a 2/3 or 3/5 or so platform.

Just found out most people I know with crossovers don't even know the difference.

Sort of an informal poll after seeing this thread.

Yep,

This is why we had to buy a GMC Acadia. It's big, expensive, underpowered, gets poor mpgs.

But it's not a minivan. That's true none of the features that make a minivan perfect for multiple car seats.

She wanted a 4-runner TRDpro but for whatever fucktarded reason Toyo won't put the 3rd row in that trim level.

Most of the vehicles on the road today are crossovers, honestly.

edit: The mid-sized SUV was a crossover between a station wagon and a full size crossover.

This isn't hard...

Bronco - Dead.
Bronco II/Explorer - Crossovered.
K5 Blazer - Dead
S10 Blazer - Dead/Crossovered. (mostly replaced by the Equinox)
Cherokee - Crossovered.
Wagoneer - Dead
Ram Charger - Dead
Scout - Dead
Pathfinder - Crossovered
Xterra - Dead
Montero - Dead
FJ Cruiser - Dead

There's probably more I'm not thinking of right now.

I still say there are valid, market-based reasons these are all gone and crossovers are everywhere, but it's silly to suggest that the market is mostly the same as it was before.

Dodge Raider
Suzuki Samurai
Suzuki Sidekick
Geo Tracker
Isuzu Amigo
Isuzu Vehicross
Honda Passport
Mazda Navajo
All Dead and gone....

Some of these are pretty obscure, some of them were badge engineered (Navajo was an Explorer for example) but goes to show that the market was utterly full of midsize SUVs for the better part of a decade and a half.

Yep, market was full of mid sized SUVs.