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Posted: 5/25/2017 10:39:32 AM EDT
To the non pilot like me, it seems like you could use your instruments just long enough to live, right? I mean the artificial horizon isn't that hard to understand.
Why is it that flying VFR into IMC leads to so many descending corkscrews? Why is it so disorienting? Just curious. |
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Your body is telling you things, and the tendency is to listen to your body, and not pay attention to your instruments.
There is a factoid out there that you last about 90 secs. This is not reality, since the study was done with persons with no real flying experience. Nonetheless, IMC requires a certain amount of discipline - discipline to pay attention to what your instruments are saying, and discipline to scan the instruments and cross check them. Sometimes instruments fail, and if you are not cross-checking, you can following a failing gyro right into the ground. You don't really understand how much you rely on a visual picture of the horizon until it's taken away. |
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The training for instrument flying is much more intense than you get during your initial VFR for pilot training. A non-instrument trsined pilot flying in instrument conditions is almost guaranteed death.
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Imagine you are driving your car through a dense fog, but there is no road to follow.
The artificial horizon only tells you how you are oriented with the horizon. It doesn't show potential hazards, such as tall buildings, radio towers, or hillsides. |
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My dad has told me stories of getting vertigo so badly he would have sworn he was flying his F4 perpendicular to the horizon. (He's not what you would call a low timer, I can't remember how many 1000 hour patches he has) He said they used to love the tankers in bad WX. Called em "Aluminum Horizons".
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To the non pilot like me, it seems like you could use your instruments just long enough to live, right? I mean the artificial horizon isn't that hard to understand. Why is it that flying VFR into IMC leads to so many descending corkscrews? Why is it so disorienting? Just curious. View Quote Because many VFR pilots will trust the sensation their vestibular systems are telling them. And your vestibular system, without support from visual cues, gets it wrong much of the time. If you ever get the chance, the FAA has a spatial disorientation simulator they bring to airshows. They spin you around in a box and have you attempt to pick up a pen on the floor or hit the "ident" button, forcing you to look down. Your head starts spinning like crazy. |
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It isn't any different than shooting, OP. Aligning the sights and exercising precise trigger control, proper grip, etc. under stress takes training and practice.
Flying in IMC takes training and practice. The attitude that you'll "just make it happen" when SHTF is what gets people killed. I learned to fly in Puerto Rico. My first night flight under instruction was cloudy and moonless. After turning away from the island, I lost my visual horizon (open ocean, no lights) and experienced slight disorientation. It took 100% focus on the panel to simply maintain control of the plane. I leveled the wings and maintained airspeed. My body was telling me we were still turning and accelerating. The control inputs I was making to stay under control felt unnatural. It was a real eye opener and I'm glad I was able to experience it with an instructor. Later in the flight, my instructor would have me close my eyes, change the attitude of the plane, and have me recover with the instruments. It's good training and an important part of learning to fly. I've never had any disorientation since then, but I wouldn't even take a small risk of running into IMC. I also won't fly at night without another experienced pilot. I don't fly very often, so I don't have the sharp skills required to do it alone. |
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The training for instrument flying is much more intense than you get during your initial VFR for pilot training. View Quote Fun story, my ILS glide slope failed for real during my Instrument check ride on what was supposed to be the easy gimme approach lol. Not a big deal with all of the instruments cross-checks you perform under IFR, but VFR pilots aren't used to relying on instrument cross check like their life depends on them. |
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It isn't any different than shooting, OP. Aligning the sights and exercising precise trigger control, proper grip, etc. under stress takes training and practice. Flying in IMC takes training and practice. The attitude that you'll "just make it happen" when SHTF is what gets people killed. I learned to fly in Puerto Rico. My first night flight under instruction was cloudy and moonless. After turning away from the island, I lost my visual horizon (open ocean, no lights) and experienced slight disorientation. It took 100% focus on the panel to simply maintain control of the plane. I leveled the wings and maintained airspeed. My body was telling me we were still turning and accelerating. The control inputs I was making to stay under control felt unnatural. It was a real eye opener and I'm glad I was able to experience it with an instructor. Later in the flight, my instructor would have me close my eyes, change the attitude of the plane, and have me recover with the instruments. It's good training and an important part of learning to fly. I've never had any disorientation since then, but I wouldn't even take a small risk of running into IMC. I also won't fly at night without another experienced pilot. I don't fly very often, so I don't have the sharp skills required to do it alone. View Quote This is sort of a scary eye opener for me. I've flown with a lot of VFR pilots who I really have zero confidence in if shtf and we went IMC. I guess maybe I'd trust them to do a timed-turn 180 and get out of the mess? Maybe? Amazing that you felt like you were in a descending corkscrew when going straight. Also amazing that most feel like they're going straight when in a descending corkscrew. Absolutely fascinating.....and deadly. |
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This. VFR pilots not trusting their instruments in IMC leads to controlled flight into terrain. Fun story, my ILS glide slope failed for real during my Instrument check ride on what was supposed to be the easy gimme approach lol. Not a big deal with all of the instruments cross-checks you perform under IFR, but VFR pilots aren't used to relying on instrument cross check like their life depends on them. View Quote Can ATC vector you in? |
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I've flown with a lot of VFR pilots who I really have zero confidence in if shtf and we went IMC. I guess maybe I'd trust them to do a timed-turn 180 and get out of the mess? Maybe? View Quote I've had to put down at random airports and wait out unforecast IMC overnight before. |
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VFR pilots should have enough experience at instrument navigation to get out of most IMC conditions. The biggest problem is pilots not admitting defeat to the weather and trying to continue to their destination instead of finding an airport to land at and wait out the weather. I've had to put down at random airports and wait out unforecast IMC overnight before. View Quote I just can't fathom being in an aircraft and saying to myself "well, this is scary and I'm not really equipped for this. Let's continue on." I never knew how deadly VFR into IMC was until very recently. You'd think it's common sense to admit defeat and land wherever you need to. Even if you need to declare and take priority over others. It's better than dying. |
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Wearing goggles inside a milk bag doesn't help.
All you see is milk. |
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Add on top of this that your vestibular system can be tricked and can become extremely unreliable, whether or not you are VFR. Any sort of G or dynamic flight will add to this.
I was once in the back crunching some numbers related to an emergency that another A/C was dealing with, and we were at the boat where we ALWAYS do left hand racetrack patterns... ALWAYS. I was heads down for a while (I wasn't the driver ), and when I finally finished the math I looked up, and we were in a RIGHT HAND racetrack pattern. My brain absolutely knew that we were going left when I was heads down, so when I looked outside and we were going right, my head exploded. It was the worst case of the leans I had ever had. Luckily I had a horizon, and just had to stare at it and convince my brain that were not going left... it took a little bit. Ironically, it was seeing the horizon when I looked up that threw me off in the first place. If we had been IMC I would've had no idea until I looked at my instruments. |
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IMO, the reason it so often leads to death is that the pilots that do it are the most clueless in the first place. Otherwise, they would not have done it. It's easily avoided. Even if it happens, the training received for for the PPL is more than adequate to get you out, if you follow the training. But chances are, if they believed what they told in training and took it seriously, they wouldn't be there.
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Flying over a large body of water with the horizon obliterated by haze can also be very disorientating. Add that to the fact that VFR pilots are conditioned to get their heads out of the cockpit and pay attention to what's going on around them. VFR pilots spend very little time doing "under the hood" training. Even if you do well during the short 30-60 second drills, it's not nearly enough for you to gain any sort of proficiency.
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What happens if ILS fails altogether and you're in IMC? Curious about how you'd get to the ground. Can ATC vector you in? View Quote If the airport ILS is completely out then you'd run a different a approach all together. Even small airports have multiple approach systems, and large airports could have dozens. ATC vectors can get you to a final approach, but they're not accurate enough for a final. |
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It's hard to explain how bad spatial disorientation can be.
Recovering from unusual attitudes is a trick. . .trainee puts his hands in his lap and puts the hood on, instructor takes the controls and banks, climbs, descends, changes speed, then hands the controls over to the trainee to recover. It takes about 30 seconds of that for the trainee to be *totally* disoriented. . .about all he can say for sure is that he isn't inverted. First time it happened to me I "recovered" into straight and level flight (felt like) and I was actually in a REALLY steep descent nearing VNE. Eye opening. |
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IMO, the reason it so often leads to death is that the pilots that do it are the most clueless in the first place. Otherwise, they would not have done it. It's easily avoided. Even if it happens, the training received for for the PPL is more than adequate to get you out, if you follow the training. But chances are, if they believed what they told in training and took it seriously, they wouldn't be there. View Quote |
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To the non pilot like me, it seems like you could use your instruments just long enough to live, right? I mean the artificial horizon isn't that hard to understand. Why is it that flying VFR into IMC leads to so many descending corkscrews? Why is it so disorienting? Just curious. View Quote A perfectly executed 1 g turn will feel like straight and level flight. Your ears and your brain will be screaming you are level. The instruments will say no. You have relied on your brain and your body for your entire life. The instruments, not so much. |
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ATC could get you to an approach but after that of you aren't equipped or trained to run that approach you're in trouble. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes |
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Interesting. I'd love to experience that (in a controlled environment of course). This is sort of a scary eye opener for me. I've flown with a lot of VFR pilots who I really have zero confidence in if shtf and we went IMC. I guess maybe I'd trust them to do a timed-turn 180 and get out of the mess? Maybe? Amazing that you felt like you were in a descending corkscrew when going straight. Also amazing that most feel like they're going straight when in a descending corkscrew. Absolutely fascinating.....and deadly. View Quote |
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Losing the glideslope isn't a big deal. You just treat it like a VOR appoach and descend based on proximity to a marker listed in the approach. If the airport ILS is completely out then you'd run a different a approach all together. Even small airports have multiple approach systems, and large airports could have dozens. ATC vectors can get you to a final approach, but they're not accurate enough for a final. View Quote |
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So what I'm hearing in here is that I need to change my carry-on luggage to a parachute. Got it.
Clicking on Amazon.com now.... |
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To the non pilot like me, it seems like you could use your instruments just long enough to live, right? I mean the artificial horizon isn't that hard to understand. Why is it that flying VFR into IMC leads to so many descending corkscrews? Why is it so disorienting? Just curious. View Quote I helped recover these three at the base of an oak tree, what a waste of a King Air https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20001211X13551&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=GA |
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What happens if ILS fails altogether and you're in IMC? Curious about how you'd get to the ground. Can ATC vector you in? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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This. VFR pilots not trusting their instruments in IMC leads to controlled flight into terrain. Fun story, my ILS glide slope failed for real during my Instrument check ride on what was supposed to be the easy gimme approach lol. Not a big deal with all of the instruments cross-checks you perform under IFR, but VFR pilots aren't used to relying on instrument cross check like their life depends on them. Can ATC vector you in? And ATC has all kinds of procedures to attempt to assist a pilot with instrument failures, but the outcome varies. Having a ILS failure sucks, but that's why missed approaches and alternate airports were invented. |
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Flying over a large body of water with the horizon obliterated by haze can also be very disorientating. Add that to the fact that VFR pilots are conditioned to get their heads out of the cockpit and pay attention to what's going on around them. VFR pilots spend very little time doing "under the hood" training. Even if you do well during the short 30-60 second drills, it's not nearly enough for you to gain any sort of proficiency. View Quote Here is what the book says to do in my Champ. (Option 1 is not valid. No turn indicator.) 3.8 Inadvertent Flight into Clouds DO NOT enter clouds in this airplane. However, in the event of inadvertent entry into cloud, one of two options may prevent loss of control of the airplane: 1. If the pilot is instrument certified, an immediate 180 back to VFR may be possible. Standard Rate Turn with this needle is indicated by the right edge of the needle touching the left edge of the index, or the left edge of the needle touching the right edge of the index. Check time, roll gently into a standard rate for one minute, then roll out. 2. If the pilot is NOT instrument certified, attempting the above procedure will almost certainly result in loss of control of the aircraft and subsequent inflight structural failure. Therefore, if the pilot is not instrument certified, the only option is to TURN LOOSE OF THE STICK. Maintain heading by reference to the compass with very light rudder inputs; very, very gently ease back on the throttle a few hundred rpm to establish a gentle descent to VFR under the clouds |
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What happens if ILS fails altogether and you're in IMC? Curious about how you'd get to the ground. View Quote |
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Interesting. I'd love to experience that (in a controlled environment of course). This is sort of a scary eye opener for me. I've flown with a lot of VFR pilots who I really have zero confidence in if shtf and we went IMC. I guess maybe I'd trust them to do a timed-turn 180 and get out of the mess? Maybe? Amazing that you felt like you were in a descending corkscrew when going straight. Also amazing that most feel like they're going straight when in a descending corkscrew. Absolutely fascinating.....and deadly. View Quote Equilibrium went from subconscious to what seemed like an external force screaming YOU'RE TURNING in my head. It took everything I had to ignore that and force my hands to make the correct control inputs. I'm really glad my instructor stayed hands off. He had an idea what was happening when I abruptly ended our climb and let me work it out. I wouldn't have heard a word he said during the disorientation. I didn't feel panicked, but I definitely experienced a classic Arfcom "adrenaline dump" during the recovery. ETA: Don't fly with pilots that don't know / won't admit their limits. It's not worth the risk. |
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Finding a place that'll let you run a PAR is tough. View Quote I also fly with a Stratus2 & ForeFlight with Synthetic Vision. If I absolutely had to (partial panel), I'd absolutely trust it to help get me down. Thankfully my autopilot is rate based and tied into my turn coordinator. |
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Getting to the ground is easy, landing at an airport, however, can be a little more difficult. And ATC has all kinds of procedures to attempt to assist a pilot with instrument failures, but the outcome varies. Having a ILS failure sucks, but that's why missed approaches and alternate airports were invented. View Quote Alternate airports are a great solution. |
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But there are ASR approaches, too. No glideslope information, just lateral guidance and information like the controller noted above. I also fly with a Stratus2 & ForeFlight with Synthetic Vision. If I absolutely had to (partial panel), I'd absolutely trust it to help get me down. Thankfully my autopilot is rate based and tied into my turn coordinator. View Quote But I imagine a pure VFR pilot getting trapped in IMC trying to run it would not be the best answer. |
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First time my instructor took me into IMC it was interesting. I was a student pilot working toward my private and was told it would be highly beneficial for me to get some real IMC experience in case I inadvertently found myself in it.
We blasted off and were told to climb to 4000, heading 160. My instructor told me to maintain exactly that heading 500' per minute up. Ok, no problem I say. Things are going great. Then we are told to turn heading of 270. Hey, that's easy! Start a right turn, standard rate... looking good and 270. So here's the fun part. As I roll out on the 270 heading my inner ear is telling me that I'm still in the turn....I physically ( my body ) start leaning to the right, into my instructor. Meanwhile even though I was momentarily holding a 270 heading my body is telling me I'm still in a turn! So my brain try's to make sense of this and tells me to turn back to the left and I add more left aileron! So now I'm physically leaning to the right and have a left turn right as I'm about to level at 4000 feet. And... that was when the instructor said " my controls" The bottom line is, the first time you experience IMC as the pilot flying it can be extremely disorienting. Your body is very used to your inner ear dictating your equilibrium and when things don't react like there supposed to it will mess with you. Case in point |
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In a simulator is one thing... With minimal training and in a real aircraft with your body percieving a gravity vector that might be lying to you is a completely different thing. Add to that the failure of any single cockpit reference while an untrained piolt is in IMC and you have the potential for a real bad situation.
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Here is my two cents from a low time student pilot on a hiatus.
When you fly vfr in cruise flight, you look out the plane like 90% of the time. You look out the plane to see if you are level and not in a turn. When you are into IMC, you don't have a horizon to use anymore to know if you are level. So, before you know it the plane starts to roll....then it just keeps rolling because you have no idea it's rolling because you have no horizon to see if you are level or not. Then it just rolls and goes into a spin and you can't get out of the spin because you don't know which way to apply rudder. Then you crash. All within less than a minute. So....pretty much before you have time to realize that you are fucked in the clouds you are already half way into a spin. This is where I feel full motion simulator work could increase safety. Albeit, there is always someone who thinks they are Bob Hoover but isn't and will try to Scud run or do VFR on top. To explain it 2 dimensionally, When you drive your car down the road you use the yellow and white lines to stay on course. Well Imagine you are going down the road and now all of a sudden there is so much fog you can't see the lines at all anymore. What would you do in a car? Well of course you would pull over and stop. Well in an airplane, you can't do that, you need to keep on trucking along because if you get to slow you stall. So imagine that fog setting in where you can't see the lines and then you need to keep driving at 50 mph, you'll end up in a ditch or in a tree in less than a minute. |
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It's weird as the second you get into IMC your brain tells you you're turning even when straight and level on AP. You get hyper sensitive once the visual cues from your eyes gets pulled from the equation.
You got multiple instruments, some with redundant information. You need to trust them and not what your body is trying to say. Training and experience is how you learn to do that. Many people find it difficult to do that. Same thing when people get lost and panic. They decide not to trust their compass and follow their instincts. Usually doesn't end well. |
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First time my instructor took me into IMC it was interesting. I was a student pilot working toward my private and was told it would be highly beneficial for me to get some real IMC experience in case I inadvertently found myself in it. We blasted off and were told to climb to 4000, heading 160. My instructor told me to maintain exactly that heading 500' per minute up. Ok, no problem I say. Things are going great. Then we are told to turn heading of 270. Hey, that's easy! Start a right turn, standard rate... looking good and 270. So here's the fun part. As I roll out on the 270 heading my inner ear is telling me that I'm still in the turn....I physically ( my body ) start leaning to the right, into my instructor. Meanwhile even though I was momentarily holding a 270 heading my body is telling me I'm still in a turn! So my brain try's to make sense of this and tells me to turn back to the left and I add more left aileron! So now I'm physically leaning to the right and have a left turn right as I'm about to level at 4000 feet. And... that was when the instructor said " my controls" The bottom line is, the first time you experience IMC as the pilot flying it can be extremely disorienting. Your body is very used to your inner ear dictating your equilibrium and when things don't react like there supposed to it will mess with you. Case in point View Quote You had a good instructor. |
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I've never had the leans while flying, so I cannot speak to how disorientating it can be. I could always tell the orientation of the aircraft when the instructor was working on unusual attitude recovery. I would try to not pay attention to what my ear was telling me, but every time I opened my eyes the plane was always where I thought it would be.
I can tell you that getting an instrument rating was the most rewarding and fun I have had flying. Intense instrument flying without autopilot is mentally draining and even physically exhausting. You never stop scanning the instruments. You are always preparing for the next radio frequency. The next heading. The next fix. The next clearance. The next altitude. The next unforseen instrumentation anomaly. The correct altimeter setting. Need to run the correct checklist for this particular phase of flight. Brief the approach plate, thoroughly, while flying and monitoring the radio for traffic and ATC instruction. How many minutes of fuel do we have left? Check the AWOS/ATIS for field conditions. Check the alternate airport too. Talk intelligibly to ATC standards on the radio (a larger task than you might think). How far from the airport are we now? Mentally prepare for a missed approach. Keep the plane in the air. Run the next appropriate checklist. Was ATC calling me just now? You must never stop thinking ahead of the plane. Task saturation is an issue for those that are trained. If you aren't trained you have no real chance of simply keeping the plane in the air. Going somewhere in a safe manner is another task entirely. Even if you are trained, these are perishable skills. Man I miss flying. |
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It's weird as the second you get into IMC your brain tells you you're turning even when straight and level on AP. You get hyper sensitive once the visual cues from your eyes gets pulled from the equation. You got multiple instruments, some with redundant information. You need to trust them and not what your body is trying to say. Training and experience is how you learn to do that. Many people find it difficult to do that. Same thing when people get lost and panic. They decide not to trust their compass and follow their instincts. Usually doesn't end well. View Quote Your inner ear can really play tricks on you. Such a seemingly benign thing but is SO deadly. You wouldn't think that less than 30 seconds from VFR to IMC could mean death.......but it most definitely can. |
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The easiest way to experience it is on an airliner. If you look forward in the cabin as you first accelerate for takeoff, it will look to you exactly like the nose of the plane has already risen, and you are leaning backwards. Your brain misinterprets the G forced pushing you back in your seat as the plane tilting, rather than acceleration. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Interesting. I'd love to experience that (in a controlled environment of course). This is sort of a scary eye opener for me. I've flown with a lot of VFR pilots who I really have zero confidence in if shtf and we went IMC. I guess maybe I'd trust them to do a timed-turn 180 and get out of the mess? Maybe? Amazing that you felt like you were in a descending corkscrew when going straight. Also amazing that most feel like they're going straight when in a descending corkscrew. Absolutely fascinating.....and deadly. |
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I do not believe it is legal to fly into IMC without an Inst. rating and even then isn't a flightplan/clearance required if IMC in controlled airspace?
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Your body is telling you things, and the tendency is to listen to your body, and not pay attention to your instruments. There is a factoid out there that you last about 90 secs. This is not reality, since the study was done with persons with no real flying experience. Nonetheless, IMC requires a certain amount of discipline - discipline to pay attention to what your instruments are saying, and discipline to scan the instruments and cross check them. Sometimes instruments fail, and if you are not cross-checking, you can following a failing gyro right into the ground. You don't really understand how much you rely on a visual picture of the horizon until it's taken away. View Quote Learning to pay attention to your compass is important. Been out in a kayak at night when the fog is so thick the sternman couldn't see the bow. I was in front and had a compass on the deck. We were totally relying on that compass to know which way we were going because we couldn't see shit. Just that was disorienting. Bobbing around, looking down, focusing on that damn compass. |
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