[url]www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=19285&page=2[/url]

You said that there was a simple calculation to show that if the biblical flood was caused by massive condensation that the released heat would have turned Earth into Venus' twin.

Please post that calculation.

Unless you are full of shit.

Cible -

By now you should know that Rik don't answer no stinkin' questions.

Rather, he believes that the very fact that you asked a question of him PROVES that you are intellectually inferior to him.

Instead of responding to your question, he instead issues a diatribe as to how you are ignorant regarding "the science" and that any three year old should know what you are asking.

he then proceeds to declare himself the "winner" of your discussion, both crossing you off his Christmas card list, and conversely adding your name to his date planner under the heading of "People I need to kill tomorrow."

[}:D]

Would you all please keep this topic to the one insane thread it started on. It is the side with the point of view that goes against the scientific mainstream that needs to fork up some evidence - other than "the bible says so."

You can nit-pick scientific research on certain issuesto a lay audience and always seem to have a point. The real point is that real science is peer reviewed and based on a constant accumulation of knowledge. In addidion, it's theories are falsifiable. Also, when new eveidence is presented, science gladly embaraces it and refines the model.

Now please take this back to the old thread and leave the rest of us to dream of guns and women.

The real truth is that I created the universe jsut last week. Everything you think you experienced prior to that are memories I planted in your heads. You are all just pawns in my master plan.[:D]


Adam

So Adam, is that memory of me and Heather Locklear a real one you made, or a dream.

Would you make it real, please?

I don't know about any "calculation" Cible, but I think he's referring to the "greenhouse" hypothesis that because water vapor traps Infrared Radiation, enough vapor will trap enough heat that the earth's surface temperature will rise considerably.  This will then help to evaporate the oceans, causing more water vapor, thus more trapped heat.

One thing that is left out of the 'equation' is the need for excessive amounts of carbon dioxide, which is necessary to create ozone.  Ozone helps reflect blue spectra light and traps IR, just like water vapor.  CO2 and H2O are the necessary components required for the "greenhouse effect".

This is the line that the vast majority of ecology scientists use to warn against the evils of pollution and CO2 emmission, but I don't think that during Noah's time that pollution, and thus CO2, was a real concern. [;)]

Most of Earth's naturally occuring CO2 is trapped in minerals in the form of carbonates and is not available for the "greenhouse effect".

Therefore Rik's argument is incorrect based on today's understanding of this cycle.

Michigander in Maryland

Adam - why did you take away the hair you put on my head?

Oh merciful one, please put it back.

Greenhouse effects aside...

Molecules of water vapor have more energy than molecules of liquid water, don't they?  So when water vapor condenses, the energy lost has to go somewhere.  

The amount of energy would depend, to a large degree, on the amount of water, and there's the problem.  How much water was involved in the Flood?  Was it enough to cover the Earth to the top of Mount Everest?  Since this scenario makes it difficult to explain where all the water went afterwards, most Creationist theories assume that the Earth was smoother at the time and so a smaller volume of water was required to cover its surface.  

By the way, has anyone else ever wondered why Noah was the only one with a boat? [;)]
   

[b]Actually fellas, I personally tend to believe the "Evil Easter Bunny Theory".

You see in biblical times, god had, in his usual visionary fashion, seen the eventual need for an Easter bunny. And so it was done, the Easter bunny was created, and long before there was even an Easter. Simply a divine judgement call.

Since the Easter Bunny was alive and well, without a holiday to represent at the time, he grew more and more frustrated. Hell, even the lowly tooth fairy was busy back then, and it just didn't feel right to the Easter Bunny. I mean really, how would you have felt if your sole prupose was to celebrate a resurrection that hadn't even occured yet?

Well, tensions grew, and the Easter Bunny's famous hot temper and short fuse began to burn. It all culminated after a bar fight between the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy back in Jerusalem. The tooth fairy began to brag in her usual fashion after a few too many shots. She was relentless, and kept telling the Easter Bunny how he looked like such a dork hopping around with all those colored eggs, for no apparent reason. Even though the Easter Bunny knew why those sacred colorful eggs were always with him, nobody seemed to cut him any slack.

Yup, you guessed it, the Easter Bunny snapped.

After throwing down his basket of eggs and challenging the whole bar to step outside to settle the score, he was, again, just laughed at. You can only imaging the rage that swelled in him!

The Easter Bunny went in to exile for 40 days and 40 nights, devoting every second to  hopping circles around his little fire, chanting to the rain god, Aquatread.

Low and behold, it began to rain......and rain.....and rain. Water began to rise and soon the Earth began to flood. The rest is history.

I'm sure that this story isn't new to many of you, but it is really for those who aren't as well studied on the subject as I am. The point is that no natural explanation could ever approach the actual events that took place. You can search hundreds of years of scientific information on meteorology, on tidal patterns, on rain fall and on climatology, but you'ld just be jerking around with those silly "facts" that humans have forced upon us.

The farther you stray in to the unbelievable and the absurd, the closer you will be to the mighty hand of god and the REAL truth. It's only the fool who conveniently leans towards the tangible and the observable and the provable. The real strength comes when all that is boldly ignored in favor of pure and vulnerable faith.

[size=4]Keep the torches [red]burning[/red]!!!!![/size=4][/b]

Actually, if you read the Bible text (Genesis 7), the text indicates that the Flood was caused by BOTH the rain coming down (atmospheric water vapors), and the fountains of the earth giving up their water (i.e. subterranean water stores.)

So this WHOLE discussion MAY be a moot point.

in the sumerian/babalonian cunieform tablets that are over 6000 yeras old - they too talk of the flood.  it was commanded by the father of the twin gods who prsided over earth the the time.  dad was anu, the sons of different mothers was enki/ea (water and creation.  genetic scientist) and enlil (god of the air and the word).  enlil was pissed off because the other lesser gods were fornicating with the 'humans' whom they genetically engineered for specific purposes and having families with them.  (because 'we' were created in 'their' image cross breeding was possible.  this also forms the first of the blood fueds of the aryan/orion and hebrew/sirian peoples).  so enlil got it so anu who really couldn't care less was forced to agree with enlil and order the flood.

the essential staff and select people were evacuated to the ships orbiting the planet.  then a 'shamash' (root of the word 'shaman' who is one who goes from this world to the abode of the gods, essential a pilot of the shuttle crafts) was given the order to melt the polar ice caps to flood the earth to rid it of it's "sinner's".

this is also where the myth of noah comes in.  he was tipped off by enki who did not want his creations destroyed.  if this stuff is true and their technology is only a 1000 years more advanced than ours is now, noah could of easily taken the dna codes of all the creatures with him in a simple boat or craft of some kind and waited for the waters to receed.

there is a whole series of books by a guy named "zakaria sitchen" (sp?)  where all of this explained quite logically.  it seems that as soon as you slap the words 'holy' or 'sacred' on something it gives the established churches an excuse not to offer an explanation.  bull pucky in my opinion. if there really is a benevolent god and he really does care for us - why would there be any secrets kept from his children?  would your own father keep you in the dark?  allow bad things to happen to you?  i think not!

if the bible is such a great deal, why were the books of jesus, mary his mom and mary his wife deleted?  because if the true words were taught the established churches (which were the first forms of organized crime) would loose their power.  why does the vatican keep the 36 or so original books of the bible hidden?  why would they lie and keep the prophecies hidden?  SIMPLE they are not in it for your benefit ONLY THEIRS!

steve

steve m - put the bong down NOW!

Eric The Hun

You're right. Water vapor has more Potential Energy than liquid water because the molecules are moving at a faster rate.  As the vapor cools, and the molecules slow down, it releases the Kinetic Energy as radiant heat.  I assume in the presence of a 'relatively' CO2 free environment, the heat would simply be radiated out into space.  

Stop!!!!Pleeeeeasse.... ..............

eric-

geez, i wish there was a bong at times, this would explain alot of stuff to you guys,(most of whom i consider 'buddies' to an extent) and sure would make things easier to pass off.  but alas there is not, so a tragic mental illness called 'reality' (which is soley my perception) based upon the earliest texts, teachings, logical views of ancient monuments, and knowlegde of ancient 'mystery schools' (way earlier then 'jonnie come lately' christianity) is my excuse.  

sorry bud.  bottom line, we really are all brothers and WE deserve a better fate than what 'god' has in store for you.  to serve him now on earth so you can serve him again in heaven? (slavery?) do you want your own kids to do that for you?  oh and come over every sunday and say how great you are and crap like that?

only a insecure egomaniac would want that.  i would want my kids to find themselves and be powerful and find their own place in the universe.  it's one thing to be respectful of an elder and an other thing all together to be dupped into paying monitary and spritiual 'protection' money to a 'mafia' who gives you no guarrentees or explainations!

correct me if i'm wrong, but does not the 'good book' itself say "not to seek too much knowledge as it only brings sorrow?"  i have to agree, because once you get past the feel good stuff (which is a reflection of our OWN inherant selves, NOTHING to do with god) and look at the FACTS using simple LOGIC - we are being sent down the river of deception.

steve

From Genesis 7:

No mention of water vapor.  (Nor is there any mention of which version of Windows was running in heaven at the time. [:D])

The calculations are not exactly simple but the are not hard:

When water vapor condenses into liquid water heat is released. This is the latent heat of condensation and it is 2,269 kJ/kg (sorry for metric I will convert it at the end) In order for it to rain from water vapor the vapor must condense. First we must find out how much water would be needed to cover the earth so we find that the radius of the earth is 6,380 km. Assuming that all land must be covered we would need about 10 km of water, to cover Mount Everest. The volume of a sphere is [(4/3)(pi)(r^3)]. To find the volume of water required to raise the water 10 km we calculate the volume of the large sphere and subtract the volume of the smaller sphere. The larger sphere, radius of 6390 km, has a volume of 1.093 * 10^12 km^3. The smaller sphere, radius of 6380 km, has a volume of 1.088 * 10^12 km^3. Subtracting the smaller sphere from the larger we find that a total of 5 * 10^9 km^3, or 5 trillion cubic kilometers, of water is needed to cover the earth. Now I don't know the weight of water per cubic kilometer so first I will convert it to meters. 1000 meters are in a kilometer so 1000^3 equals 1 trillion cubic meters in a cubic kilometer. 5 trillion cubic kilometers times 1 trillion cubic meters in a cubic kilometer equals 5 * 10^18 m^3 of water. Water weighs 1000 kg a cubic meter. 5 * 10^18 m^3 of water times 1000 kg of water per cubic meter equals 5 * 10^21 kg of water. So know that we know how much water is needed we can find out how many kilo Joules of energy is released when the water condenses. 2,269 kJ/kg times 5 * 10^21 kg of water equals 1.135 * 10^25 kJ. This is 1.135 * 10^28 Joules (one thousand Joules in a kilo Joule).

British Units
There are 1055 Joules in 1 Btu. 1.135 * 10^28 Joules divided by 1055 Joules/Btu equals 1.075 * 10^25 Btu's. That is 10,750,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Btu's. (That's a lot)

MIerinMD, actually water is a much better heat capacitor than carbon dioxide. Water has a specific heat of 2010 J/kg * degree Celsius as vapor, and carbon dioxide has a value of about 914 J/kg * degree Celsius. We can assume with this much rain that the air would be saturated with water vapor so the earth would actually hold in heat better, or be more of a greenhouse. So carbon dioxide or not the earth would have held a great deal of the heat in.

PS. These calculations assume that the temperature would drop only condense from water vapor. So the temperature of the water would still be about 99 degrees Celsius, or about 210 degrees Fahrenheit. Assuming that the rain cooled even more energy would be released.

Hope that these calculations where helpful. If you give me the time that the flood took place over  I can convert it into watts if you want me to. Please tell me if you find any mistakes. [:)]

Rickyj......
That post of yours above this one was absolutely riveting!!!

I find myself reading and rereading it, all the while crunching those delicious numbers, statistics and calculations.

I realized after my first read what exactly has been missing from this site, and now I know. It's the lack of excessive, dry, barely readable scientific info on hydrodynamics.

1000 thanks![sleep]

Way cool way to say, GOD IS IN THE DETAILS,
Rickyj

SAMATTA GREYGHOST? You wanted calculations you
got calculations.

You are not being sarcastic are you M4? [:)]
Sorry about the headache Grey Ghost.

I pretty much ignored the whole Dinosaur thread, but if you guys wanna keep taking this one personally, I'll add my $0.02, and hope I don't insult someone too seriously.

It seems to me that it is a lot easier to believe something based on 'faith', than to go out and actually learn about it, either by an educational institution, or by good 'ol fashioned book larnin'.  I don't completely understand the workings of the internal combustion engine, but you don't hear me saying, "God created the V8 350, and so shall it be!"

I majored in Organismal Biology, so a lot of these facts that you are disputing, are first hand knowledge to me.  I've never been good at teaching others, so I'm not even going to attempt that one.  I'll just say that I was told a lot of things that might not seem likely to those without a science background.  However, EVERYTHING I was taught was backed with research, experimentation, studies, facts, etc...  Hell, I even saw first hand some of these theories, or even played some of them out in a laboratory environment.

Now I have to sit back and watch while folks that DO NOT have this educational experience tell me that everything I learned was a bunch of BS?!?!  Please tell me, what gives you the audacity to say that millions of educated folks in the world of science are smoking too much crack?  

So one book, a book that was a propaganda book for the era it was written, negates all the knowledge that was aquired after its distribution?  

Science and religion do not need to be in conflict.  Science is based on fact, religion is based on faith.  Personally, I consider myself a man of science, and God fits into the whole of equation because he put every thing into motion a few billion years ago.

Many of the stories of the bible are just that, stories.  Don't take it all so literally, because if you do, you are missing the real point of the Good Book.

And please, let's stop insulting the folks who actually studied this crap called science, because it's a hell of alot easier to say "the bible says it's so" than to actually sit through a thousand boring lectures and labs, and actually learn what really happened.

Thanks all, but I do understand the whole energy/entropy/enthalpy, latent heat, heat of condenation thing and all that.  However, calculating the approximate quantity of water for the Flood, the heat released upon condensation, the albedo/diminishing cloud cover effect, absorption by the Earth, etc., all make for a complicated calculation, especially if you're looking to turn Earth into Venus.

Rik tossed it out as gospel, then, when asked to back it up, he looks quickly in his "Evolutionary Science for Dummies" book and/or on the 'net, and if it isn't there he starts off with the insults.

Whilst running away with his tail between his legs.

Because again, he has been caught talking shit.

I haven't run anywhere, Sybill.  Still sitting here, LMAO at your stupidity.  

This thread has been very educational.  I've learned that "organismal" is a real word. [8D]

Everybody take cover we have incoming nonsense! Oh my god the flawed assumptions are coming straight at us! Ahhhhhhhhh!! LMAO [:)]

It's easier to believe than to learn.

You can teach those willing to learn.

But the lazy find faith a good substitute for knowledge.

amen!