I posted a thread about which gun I should shoot at this class a few weeks ago, and a few people asked for a quick AAR.

This is not the first time I've been to Frontsight, nor is it the first time I've taken this class. A lot is said about the place (mostly about its owner), but I'll say that for the most part, Frontsight does a great job of teaching the basics to a very, very large amount of people. FS claims that they train 50,000 students per year, and based on the class sizes I believe that.


Front gate, day one (6:30 AM)

I understand that when the place was originally built, a lot of VERY expensive memberships were sold. These included land leases, etc. and there were lawsuits over it. I bought my membership in about 2013, long after that dust had settled, and it was very cheap. The first class I took was using a "grey" certificate purchased on ebay which I think I paid $100? for. I believe the place went through some financial hardships which caused a lot of people to fire-sale memberships before they were worthless. They didnt go under, and in fact are currently building another large expansion of ranges. My first trip there had no running water, and there are now nice bathroom facilities, Air conditioned classrooms and large tent structures, etc. They have classes on everything from pistol to rifle, full auto, ropes/rapelling, night shooting, etc.  This review isnt about the owner or his politics.

The 4 day pistol class covers drawing and shooting from concealment, malfunction clearances, and some tactical decision making and movement. Round count is 600 (I shot about 800). Most of the first 2 days is instruction with the bulk of the blasting on the last 2.

In order to keep this from getting too long I'll try to keep it in a bullet point format.



Day 1 orientation


Pros:
Its affordable (today, see above).

Immediate and repetitious focus on safety.

Its accessible: kids as young as 11 (mature, and with a parent) can attend firearm classes, and during this last class we had a 68 year old woman who had never held a gun before. They also have children specific classes on things like ropes, self defense, wilderness survival, etc. Its really cool to see families, women, and children having fun and celebrating freedom and gun ownership in such a positive atmosphere. My class was about 35% female, and we saw whole classes of kids going to and from different facilities each day. Seeing 400+ people open carrying pistols and slung long guns is fucking awesome.


Ropes

The instructors really know the curriculum (to the point of jokes being repeated from previous classes). There are no uh's during lectures and presentations.

Its incredibly well organized and run according to schedule.

The focus on basics (marksmanship, weapon manipulation, malfunction clearances, etc) is excellent. Everyone in class, including myself, improved significantly.

Lots of time spent hyping up joining the NRA, becoming politically active, etc.

Instructors demonstrate techniques, including shooting before asking students to do them. Our RM, in particular, was a fucking amazing shot and extremely fast for a 60 year old heavy set guy. He was also hilarious. All of my instructors were prior .mil and had solid credentials in addition to being FS instructors.
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You dont need much in the way of specialized guns or equipment. Any pistol, .380 or bigger, suitable for carry, 2 mags, holster, eyes, and electronic ears - you're good to go. They do have a prohibition on pocket pistols, non traditional methods of carry (AIWB, etc) and Serpa holsters. They also have a full rental shop with guns, ear pro, ammo, etc that is reasonably priced.

There is plenty of fun and educational side activities in addition to shooting. The highlights are a shoot house with shoot/dont shoot targets on day 3, and a 1 vs 1 steel challenge "race" style competition on day 4. Lectures are given during lunches and in the evenings (optional) on topics ranging from moral and ethical decisions related to self defense, color codes of awareness, what to do after defending yourself, being a good witness, etc.


Malf practice/dry fire drills


Shoot house


On the last day you are given a skills test (also optional, but required to move on) which includes drawing from concealment and shooting accurately with time pressure, as well as things like malfs and reloads. A score of -13 is required to move on to more advanced classes. That equates to 2 misses off the body, and 1 late. The course of fire is 36 shots (IIRC) from 3-15 yards, from concealment. Its possible to score less than zero, and lots of people do. Its a good, objective measure of your abilities to compare as you improve. I passed down 6, which is the first time I've "DG'd".


Cons:

My class had 44 students, which is divided into 2 relays (22 shooters at one time). While not shooting, you are to coach your buddy and watch them for safety violations. With the RM and 2, sometimes 3-4 assistant line coaches, there can be as many as 7 students per instructor. With experienced shooters, thats no big deal. However as I mentioned, some people in the class had never held a gun before. As you'd suspect, this means that the instructors tend to spend MOST of their time focusing on people who would be a danger to themselves or others. This leads to the better shooters receiving less direct feedback. Classes could be smaller.

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Adherence to "old school" mechanics. The most notable is the Modified Weaver stance and "thumbs high" grip. That being said, they are more accommodating than they used to be. Now they will say if you are an experienced shooter, and there is nothing wrong with your technique, stick with it. However they do ask that you at least try it their way and make sure you can do it correctly.. if you want to switch back, fine. I originally learned isosceles before Weaver, and while I still prefer the former, I can do either now. I also shoot thumbs forward and I shoot well that way - no one has ever tried to change it.  

Over the top, sometimes shady marketing and business practices. Front Sight is run like a professional, no nonsense training school. Why they dont present themselves that way is beyond me. Their website and emails are pushy, confusing, and overly aggressive. I think they've gotten better about this recently, but still. Chill the fuck out.


Our range. There are about 20 pistol/rifle/shotgun bays with more being built. Precision rifle shoots out to 1200 yards.

The location 25 minutes outside of Pahrump, NV, about an hour from Las Vegas. The accommodations in Pahrump arent bad, but the place could really benefit from onsite lodging. A lot of people camped or stayed in RV's outside the gates. Frontsight doesn't have a cafeteria, but there is now an onsite food vendor during lunch and you can order sandwiches in advance which are tasty.


Steel challenge

There are some sales pitches for things like Fort Knox safes and pre-paid legal. Non mandatory, and I didnt attend them. No mention of Scientology or anything kooky.

Recommendations:

Bring a gun that wont slice up your hand. You'll be doing a ton of weapon manipulation and dry practice in addition to shooting. Nearly everyone has tape, gloves, etc on by the end.

Uplula loader, per above. They sell them for MUH PRICE GOUGING rates (no captialism hate bro) in the pro shop, and people pay it.

Bring something reliable. Extra malf practice is a good thing, but not if it gets in the way of training. I've seen plenty of Glocks, XDs, etc choke during these classes, in addition to the usual suspects (1911's ). My STI ran like a top until the rear adjustable sight blade flew off. They have a gunsmith onsite who can fix most issues.

Lots of sunscreen and clothing options (water is provided at each range). Pahrump can snow in the winter and reach 120+ in the summer, or seemingly do either during any season, at any fucking moment. I'm always way too hot or way too cold there.

Have an open mind


Hostage taker target... The gal on the right used it as her family's pregnancy announcement. I shrunk the pic, but the "hostage" is Baby #3 . You are supposed to write the name of a loved one on the target.



TLDR: I had fun. Front sight isnt gonna teach you to operate operationally, but its a solid foundation. I'll keep going back for more classes.

Done any of the advanced classes?

I know a guy who goes there pretty often. He shoots very well.

Isn't that place owned by a Scientologist?

http://www.dianahsieh.com/frontsight/


Yep, that's the one. Good review/post, but I'll never do business with any of those morons.

I have not. This was the first time I "passed" (distinguished graduate) in order to move on. I've heard mixed reviews of the more advanced pistol classes, however the precision rifle class is well regarded. I'll need to DG practical rifle first, which I plan to take next.

YEah, from what I have read and heard there are some very valid gripes with the owner. The classes however, are excellent.

I took the 4 day handgun class in 2000, when all they had for facilities was a Sprung tent, some connex boxes and porta potties.
And the shoot house was plywood.  I can't remember whether or not the main road was even paved then.
I really enjoyed the shootoff competition event the last day.

Our class winner then shot against the winner from the shotgun class.
The first shotgun round, the hostage rescue head shot, flung the 40lb target completely off the stand and 10 plus feet back!  
Awesome!

Going for a week at the end of the year with friends for two different classes.

I've taken the pistol class, practical rifle a couple times and precision rifle a couple times. Always a good time out there.

Been there a half-dozen times and love it. Your assessment is right on the money.

Thanks for the AAR!

Good report; the pro/con and the photos are a big plus.  

How did this experience compare to other well-known classes you have done?

That's a huge fucking class.

+1 for people getting trained though.

I have a A pistol course there that I paid for six or seven years ago, I'm going to get there some day.

And it was really cheap, I can remember but it was a special @ 80 bucks or some crazy.
I call there last year to make sure it was still good & they said yep your good to go.

Where is he?  I still get non stop emails from him.  He is still affilliated.

Ok....what in the hell is "malfs" I know I'm going to feel stupid.

Malfunctions

Yep I was right....feel a little stupid.

Meh... let those without sin cast the first stone.

*and such a great avatar!!

One thing I learned very long ago is not to fuck with old fat guys who demonstrate even a little proficiency with guns or martial arts.  You will be not only surprised; but you could end up on the wrong side of an asswhoopin' or a severe case of lead poisoning by bullets.
Never know what could've happened to them medically or whatever---I underestimate nobody.

Thank you SDSG you answered everything I was wondering about Frontsight. I have one of their certificates and I think I will be looking for someone to sell it to. I have too many decent training outfits much closer to me for me to consider going down there.

Those classes were just absurdly yugge!

Oh and what does SDSG mean/reference?

I've been to that class. Solid instruction, IMHO
I've also taken Copper's defensive pistol class, but at Whittington, when he was "in exile" from Gunsite
I think the two courses were roughly equivalent.
BTW, my head instructor at Whittington was some knotted named Rich Wyatt

Edit to correct autocorrect

Brad Ackman. Piazza is still very much leading the company, you just won't find him out roaming the ranges or bullshitting with students in the classroom. Since they closed the head office in Windsor, CA and moved all operations on-site, and with the new construction, I'd imagine he's spending a lot more time out there than in recent years, though.

Ive been with front sight since they offered a free one day Uzi course and bought a copper membership for a discounted $2000 20 years ago.  Good classes.  I've been there about a dozen times and dist grad pistol rifle and shotgun.  Adv tactical handgun is good if youve never done stuff like that before...shoot on the move,  move to cover, shoot house, and improving the basics.

The 4 day handgun used to have more activities like walk and shoot in the canyon and night fire.

I call fs the Wal-Mart of shooting schools.  Cheap and great value, appeals to the masses, and for all skill levels.  But there are better schools out there shooting wise.

In Scientology?

I won the shoot-out for all bays plus shotty the year the wife and I went, 2003.

It was tents but the road was paved.

Missed DG by one point.

Got buzzed by A-10's.

Wife got the Ros into a tizzy by confronting a tarantula and going to hand on pistol but not drawn.

"Aggressor has venom and is within 20 feet."

They all thought that was hilarious.  

"Please do not shoot the spider."

I had a malfunction where I caught my concealment shirt between the pistol grip and my hand on the draw on the speedwork section...when I got it clear and on target I shot as the target turned and my wife to my left said "You are such an a$$hole..." cause I had split the occular section completely in two.  It got the ROs going also.

We stayed in Pahrump at the wheel in the room with the stripper shower.

$500 a day and 20 to one instructor ratio is "cheap and great value"?

Someone doesn't understand marketing.

You must pay sticker price and by the Scotchgard treatment too, eh?

I understand the training industry.

You must lay your little head down on a 'My Pillow" every night.

Try $2.50 per day: https://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=3&campId=5337559805&toolId=10001&customId=j22027n3dd00zk8a00azb&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fr.ebay.com%2FHM9iqE

The market is flush with course certificates and lifetime memberships. You can pick up the latter for under $50.

Min shooter to instructor ratio is 7:1. Still too high IMO, but it is what it is. You also have a buddy system "coach" who watches out for things like safety issues.

I've taken 120 hours of instruction there, and I paid far less than 2k for my membership, but even if I did thats pretty good value. Its also unlimited, as I imagine his is... which means you can keep going back as much as you want.

A lot of things can be said about FS but if you dont consider it a good value, you either dont train often, or you got ripped off when you bought in.

Some foreign investors bought out one of big local ranges so they could compete with Front Sight as a premier training venue.

I am glad you consider your time and money well spent.

Personally there is very little value for me at Front Sight and would never consider any training company needing to resort to that kind of marketing technique.

Not meaning to be such a negative nelly but any organization still teaching Weaver is literally making worse shooters, not better shooters.

I was happy to point out FS's shortcomings and I dont want to get into a pissing match, but taking untrained shooters and teaching them Weaver along with solid fundamentals in marksmanship and gun safety is hardly "making worse shooters". Doesnt Gunsite still teach Weaver as well?

Here is Cooper's stance on the subject: "“It hardly matters whether you use the Weaver Stance or the Isosceles with both arms straight as long as you get hits and those hits should be delivered with a major-powered sidearm under controlled conditions. The argument is silly, and I wish it would go away”."

I find the idea that someone is going to stand in a specific stance while bullets are whizzing at them laughable, but YMMV.

"I've never been there, but I know it sucks."

That looks awesome! I wish we could go down and get training in the states. There isn't much in Canada and they are sold out in a day usually. (I'm only signed up for one carbine course this summer)

Of course Cooper wanted the argument to go away, he was on the wrong side.

There are multiple shooting disciplines that objectively time and score a shooter's ability to quickly hit targets and using a Weaver stance will ensure a shooter is never competitive.

If you feel your training has not been adequate enough to give you a solid base that you can default to under stress that might be a clue as to the value of said training.

Just Sayin.

Forgot to tag @Spent_Casing who requested I do this to begin with!

At the absolute highest levels of competition you'd be correct, which is a laughable comparison.

You missed the part about how I can successfully use both. You also missed the part about not getting into a pissing contest.

Just Sayin.

a guy I work with, recently went to FS and as a fairly new shooter he enjoyed it and wants to go to more at FS.

But damn that is a lot of people, I prefer having inexperienced shooters together and experienced together, then the instructors can give lots of hands on to those new shooters.  The experienced shooters then won't be slowed down as much.

Thanks! I missed this the first time 'round. Great AAR

And yeah, I agree. Those class sizes are yuge.

Excellent place. November is the time to go.

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