The thousand years we spend in heaven (the current location) is when we get all those questions answered. When God creates a new heaven and a new earth it will be on this planet. It will have been purified with fire and those who didn't go to heaven (the lost) will be incinerated right here. It says we will walk on their ashes and that is the hell that will occur right here on this earth. Hell and people burning forever is one of the biggest lies ever conceived. It's one of Satan's favorites. The vast majority of those who don't get to heaven will die instantly. It says punished according to their works which implies that people get different punishments. Eternal fire means the results are eternal and burned up means exactly what it means today. Read up on Sodom and Gomorrah as that is your example of the end times and hell. Our tears will be wiped away which means there will be sadness while we are adjusting to the fact that some people we loved are not there. We will have a home in the city of the new Jerusalem and it says we will build others and plant things so it's not just harps and clouds. I've heard that the description written by John in Revelation of the size of the city of God fits right into the size of the original promised land shown to Abraham and the new Jerusalem will sit right on the same spot that the old one sits today. 

How Christian of you.

It saddens me to see the number of mockers, scoffers and unbelievers on this thread.  Very soon now, all the Christians will suddenly disappear and this world will become a nightmare beyond belief.  If you don't remember anything else, remember not to take the Mark and to remain faithful to Christ until He returns.  Otherwise, you will not fare well at the White Throne of Judgement.

I'm getting a lot of mileage out of this here, lately.

Yes, very soon.

You really have no idea,  do you?

wow, you're really bitter and vicious.  why?

Tag!

God: "I'm going to create these highly flawed and imperfect beings, give them wildly powerful and irrational emotions and fairly low intelligence and zero perspective of the nature of the universe, hide myself from them and then act like it was their fault when they don't believe I exist. Oh, and then I'll punish them with endless torture when they don't follow directions in an old book, because I love them. Hey it was their choice! My hands are tied!"




You don't know how deceived you are. The devil has you right where he wants you. You won't believe it even if someone tells you.

Get a bible and quietly start reading the gospel of John. Ask God for forgiveness and for help to see the truth which is the love of God.

Unless the devil already won, he deceived everyone and you've been praying to him this whole time. That would certainly explain the abundance of suffering and the indifferent deity watching it happen. Oh, and it also explains the "christians" on this site who get aroused at the idea of violence against people who disagree with them.

This is why I always liked the idea of predestination.  Whether I do or I don't, I will. 

Fascinating isn't it?   all that hate exerted on something he doesn't believe in.

I spend way more energy shitting on movies I don't like. Poking holes in religion is one of the easiest hobbies ever.


BTW: Boondock Saints is the worst movie ever made.

a hint:

Matthew 22:29-30

29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Babies and children who haven't reached the age of accountability aren't in limbo or anything. They are under grace and go to paradise.

Amos 8:11-12

11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:

12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

OP, might I suggest GD is not the place to, at last, find the info you seek.

Suppose you dated someone in highschool and things were fun mostly but then they moved away.  Suppose you find out about them years later and learn they really went down the wrong path, and as you look back it was kind of clear it was going to end up that way all along, and in retrospect you're glad things turned out the way they did.  

Maybe that's how it is, maybe not, but it's likely when we get to see everything clearly we'll see some things that will change our perspective.

You should spend some time reading the COC

We are all going to die soon enough! When we die you and I will know for sure if God exists. If you are right and there is no heaven I have still had a great life. If there is a God, I certainly believe there is, I am forgiven and in fellowship with him. You my friend refer to him as a fantasy! Without faith you will have no advocate, you will stand alone for judgement by God! In due time all of our questions will be answered and the truth will be revealed!

Feel free to report me whenever you like, champ. I know arfcom likes its safe spaces.

Would that mean that my actions or beliefs have no bearing, as I've already had my fate decided for me?

If that's the case, I don't think I can call myself a Christian any longer.

I don't tell many folks this, but my experiences in life have left me solidly convinced that Satan (or something similar enough to be functionally identical) and demonic entities are as real and dangerous as it gets. They have not done the same for God, angels, or anything else good in the world besides for occasional human kindness. Maybe that kindness is a manifestation of God's grace, but it looks as if he's left the building and left it to evil and madness.

ETA: Not an atheist, just disillusioned and wondering how much of modern scripture has been corrupted by Satanic influences. Anything derived from the KJV is automatically suspect.

People in the Old Testament had the same path to heaven that we have today:  faith in the promises of God.

Galatians 3:6 "So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”"'

Not sure which group (Born Agains maybe?), but one of them believes that god pre-chooses who will believe and be saved, and those who are not chosen can never be saved because they will never believe.

Massive fail.  Hitler was not a Christian.  He hated religion.

Link

Please try again.

24 Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26 Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’[d]? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”

A lot of human suffering is caused by unfulfilled desire.  Even when a desire is fulfilled, it is replaced by the desire for more.  Thus, to end suffering, you have to forgo desire.

If heaven is the lack of human suffering, that must mean that your desires are fulfilled or that you no longer desire those human things.

If those people whose company you desire cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven, then you would be suffering in Heaven in their absence.

If they can't be in Heaven, and you can't suffer from unfulfilled human desire while Heaven, that leaves only one possibility:

You no longer desire to spend time with them, you big jerk.

There is no point rehashing the debate. Christians will obviously want to distance themselves from the guy, in the same way atheists want to disinherit Stalin. In this case it misses the point I was making. According to the doctrine many American Christians follow, Hitler could have accepted Christ as his savior, and that blood sacrifice would have been enough to buy him passage to paradise. A paradise that the Jews Hitler slaughtered will never see because they refuse to accept Jesus as their lord.

Arguing that you do not think Hitler sought that forgiveness isn't really relevant. We cannot know. What we can discuss is whether or not that avenue was there for him. The answer, to hear many Christians tell it, is a solid YES. The child rapist who accepts Jesus is in heaven while those who do not, no matter how wonderful and virtuous, how objectively goodthey might be, are destined for eternal torment. And that brings us to this thread.

The defenders of this lunacy have offered only one response. They claim that those in heaven will be so thrilled that they will not care abut those left behind or condemned to eternal torture. But that misses the point. Just because God's chosen no longer care, doesn't mean it isn't happening or that it no longer matters. Nor does their heavenly indifference to injustice make anything better. Injustice is still injustice. And I am one who cannot help but point this out, that's how I was made. More, I was so made that I apparently lack some capacity for empty faith, I need some actual evidence before I go all in.

Anyway, hopefully this clears my position up. If you have faith and it makes your life better, I wold not take that away from you. Have a nice day.

The turning point in my faith occurred during my Evangelical Lutheran confirmation classes.

"Will my dog be in heaven when I get there?"

Pastor, enraged like this is some pedantic question asked only to disrupt class, "No, there are no animals in heaven."


Oh.  Well in that case, fuck this shit.

They claim that people who go to heaven have transcended caring about earthly things, and that being deprived of your loved ones and god is part of the punishment of hell...or whatever the alternative to heaven is.

Christianity holds its believers hostage with threats and fearmongering. It's easier to feel superior to people who don't believe when you think that they'll be punished in the afterlife.

Satan has pretty much corrupted the Christian world and its beliefs. It took less than 2,000 years.  Every time there is a topic like this believers and none believers alike blindly accept the fact that God will burn people forever and that no matter what one does in this life, if they weren't chosen, they get burned forever. Christians propagate doctrine that turns people away from God and I understand when some say he is a hateful sadistic God. But will anyone take a chance and look at things from a different perspective........mostly no.  How could they be wrong, after all, the majority believe it so it must be true and they have their selected scriptures to back it up. The majority will not make it to heaven.

<cough> 72 virgins <cough>

Fellow atheist here. It's not a plot hole. Their god is so awesome that you don't miss your mom or kids. It's that blissful to be in heaven with him. Kind of like the things that meant so much to you as a kid don't mean anything to you now. You outgrow them and replace them with bigger, more meaningful things.

You get a spiritual lobotomy and spend the rest of eternity singing praise to the guy who poked out your frontal lobe. That's essentially what it boils down to per biblical accounts.

Sounds terrific.

I'm selling rapture insurance if you're interested. For $500 upfront I will take care of your pets and bring in your mail, water your plants and so forth when the day comes. PM me for further details.

I used to have discussions with my cousin about whether or not there were dogs, and wildlife in heaven.  If my idea of paradise requires dogs and wildlife rather than streets paved in gold, I should have that.  Cousin said animals do not have souls, to which I responded "how do you know they don't, and for that matter why would one animal (humans) have souls while other animals don't? This is relevant if you believe the theory that they were all created by the same being.

Oh well, I guess she now knows as she died a few years ago.

LIke Guthrie said : "If there aren't any dogs in heaven, when I die, I want to go where they (The dogs) went."

Like most folks, I have my own set of beliefs, logic plays a greater part in my belief system than dogma (see what I did there?) does.

Depends greatly on the theology to which you subscribe. I believe heaven will have me surrounded by my family. (LDS)

So they all make it to heaven automatically?

Does it specify if the virgins are male, or female.....or even human?  Have some guy stuck with 72 virgin porcupines...

All I did was remove the sugar coating from what a number of devout followers in this thread have already enthusiastically shared.

For Gandolph so loved the world that he sent his only begotten Frodo that whoever shall join the fellowship of the ring shall not perish but have eternal life, like the nazgul.

It's a good reason to not die a virgin. Some terrorist is up there waiting for you.

That's good enough for me!  Hell sucks!

This is why GD is a challenging place to discuss this. To answer that question we'd need to first cover the differences in our conceptions of what heaven is, and what you do there. There is nothing automatic about it. But for now let's just say I have faith that God can do the work he sets out to do and the only people that will suffer are those who choose to do so instead of accepting Gods efforts. If any in my family choose that, it would be sad indeed. I don't believe they will though. God is pretty pursuasive.

The Bible does not offer the degree of clarity on these questions that you suggest in your post. People who claim that it does are using the Bible to drive their own theological and other agendas, in my opinion.  

I ascribe to justification by grace through faith. In other words, God's grace determines whether you are saved. A person does not get to decide for themselves whether they are saved. That is God's decision. Nothing you do can force God to decide one way or the other. Many Christians and Christian denominations follow this doctrine.

Many other Christians and Christian denominations do not ascribe to this doctrine. Many believe that a person must do certain things on earth to be eligible for salvation. Still others believe that if they do them, they will be saved.

This is a fundamental split in Christian theology. You can see the difference it makes in your hypothetical. The Bible offers support for both doctrines.

There is a post on page 1 that quotes my first post and links to two articles about heaven. If you read the scriptures that the articles cite, you can see that the scriptures do not directly say what the articles say. Many theologians have what is in my opinion a bad habit of trying to create more certainty than the Bible offers. God never said man was supposed to know everything. In fact, trying to do so was the original sin.

The Christian denominations that ascribe to justification by grace through faith tend to put less emphasis on what the afterlife is going to look like than the denominations that believe salvation requires some form of works, in my experience. I have faith that an afterlife exists, that I am saved, and God will take care of me. Beyond that, I don't really concern myself with what the afterlife is like. I believe it will be something that I cannot understand in my human state.

I also believe fixating on what heaven and hell are like and who is going where can obscure Jesus's core message said so clearly in Luke 10:

[Jesus] said to him, “What is written in the law? What do you read there?” 27 He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.”

A man on earth trying to figure out who God is going to send where and what's going to happen when they get there is getting awfully close to trying to switch places with God, in my opinion.

Fascinating analysis. Thank you!

I wish God would make a TV show called "World's Funniest Epiphanies At Judgement".

If a human being ends up in Hell it is because that person has rejected the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.

Revelation 21:14
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.