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Posted: 4/23/2017 12:07:42 AM EDT
[#1]
It was more of an art when I was calling it in. None of that fancy GPS shit.
I spent a summer teaching fire support at West Point. At the end of each day we put on a demo for the part of the cadet class rotating through that day. One portion of the demo was a mortar crew coming out of the woods, quickly setting up an 81mm tube, hanging 3 rds, and back in the woods before the first one hit. At least one was always a direct hit on an M113 in the impact area...usually two, with the third nearby. It was cooked though. They didn't use the baseplate they carried out. There was one preburied and the bipod/sight they carried out were also dialed in for that target. Never failed to impress though. But the real crowd pleaser was the FPF at the end of each day. The mortar instructors manned most of the tubes, but the FIST instructors were assigned one, probably for laughs. We were, without a doubt, the slowest crew out there. Every. Single. Day. |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 12:23:23 AM EDT
[#2]
I can only imagine how terrifying accurate artillery can be to an enemy. It's like God decided to rain death on you and your homies
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Posted: 4/23/2017 12:29:01 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does wind fuck shit up over 25 miles? 25 miles max range? Wind isn't a huge issue as long as we can account for it. Met data includes wind speed and direction at multiple altitudes from ground level through the max ordinate of the flight path. As long as that data is recent and accurate the projectile will go exactly where I want it to go. |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 12:51:04 AM EDT
[#4]
Not sure how accurate the discussions are but stories I've read/heard about WWI artillery use and the old coastal defense artillery accuracy are scary. In WWI besides just massive numbers of guns in use, I've read that they would coordinate for time of arrival and then hundreds (?) of pieces of various sizes and at different ranges would fire so that everything arrived at the same time. That's not like an air raid where typically you'd know when enemy aircraft are in the area and when the sirens sound, everyone that can moves to cover, etc. Just the ranges, etc., are such that there is no warning. Everything blows up. And the coast artillery, ours and probably every competent other first worldish nation had it, was all in place, registered, long range finding separations, mechanical "computers, etc.. so the target ships had to be zigzagging, etc., but that would also play hob with being able to return fire as well. And like battleships, some of those were the same tubes, etc., and that's up to 16" shells.
Stories abound, no clue how accurate they are but if you were in a place where you could use radar, computer tracking of an incoming shell would be back engineered so to speak, to tell "them" where the round was fired from. The physics of the problem wouldn't seem too difficult, not that you could do it with a slide rule, but these days? Something could be dispatched back before the incoming struck, if what I've heard is true. As to air, etc., replacing artillery? If nothing else, remember that an aircraft is burning fuel the entire time it's up. Something sitting on the ground or floating out there isn't using much fuel at all, if any, by comparison. |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 1:36:50 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: pulling a string. Is it for simplicity and ruggedness and/or safety reasons? |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 1:48:59 AM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 4/23/2017 2:09:34 AM EDT
[#7]
I was bored a few nights ago and watched a youtube video of a Civil War era 30lb Parrott artillery piece firing at a target 2,000 yd away. I wouldn't want to be down range of a 150ry old artillery piece either.
 Live Firing of Civil War Siege Artillery, Part 1, 30 Pounder Parrott Rifle |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 2:12:02 AM EDT
[#8]
Here is Civil War artillery against US armored personnel carriers. It is interesting to hear the rounds go overhead.
 Civil War Artillery, Live Explosive Shell Fire |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 5:01:37 AM EDT
[#9]
Artillery officer here (Mostly fire support but Iv done the gunnery piece at Sill at BOLC and CCC). There are so many factors that go into it, it will make your head spin. Planning wise, a 50m radius is about standard when planning, but it all depends on the caliber, range from gun, type of round (there are different types of HE), whether its standard or precision. Start adding in types of sheaf, meteorological conditions, cold/hot bore, accuracy of target grid. Field Artillery Gunnery is legitimately a science. Lots and lots of physics and math. Range and round type is a huge factor. Shooting at 1/3 range vs max range will be completely different spreads. Add in things like precision munitions is an entirely different story.
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Posted: 4/23/2017 5:08:18 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, put it this way---with many modern munitions you just have to be semi-close. And by semi-close, you can still miss by a FUCKING LOT and kill lots of people. |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 5:13:22 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Was wondering that too. Do they kinda settle in after a while and repeat? |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 5:13:54 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You would be wrong. The legs, tracks etc. (depending on the piece) don't really move under firing. There's recoil systems built into the weapon that allow the barrel etc. to fly backward with shocks that transmit the impulse in a much more controlled way into the chaise and ground. There's also huge muzzle breaks... Don't stand in blast area Echo unless you want to die. (left and right area's of the muzzle, the blast from the muzzle break can kill) ETA: The better your data, the more accurate the first POI will be. (META / meteorological data, knowing the actual MV for your specific howitzer etc.) |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 5:18:19 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
String pullers might not be the best we got, but their smite button is pretty fucking effective. |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 5:58:19 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Love the comment toward the end "Somebody's getting seriously fucked up down there".  |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 6:16:48 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Date is wrong. It was 2003. 11th Marines Regimental fire mission. Every tube in Regiment fired. I think 6 rounds each. I believe it was DPICM RAP.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYR-H4Hgoz8
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Posted: 4/23/2017 7:03:02 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't I know a lot about artillery, so I'm sure I'll get flamed for this question, but it's an honest one. Given drones, and our general air superiority, do you think artillery for the US will eventually be obsolete? I understand our guys can lay down a lot of ordinance, accurately. Can air support not do anything artillery can? I'll concede an aircraft has to be re-armed, and can't carry as much, but our wars lately haven't been against nations and traditional armies. Will artillery always have a place, or will we evolve past it? |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 7:06:33 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Love Arty, and I have been on this site lobbying for increased R&D in Arty. That is one critical area. |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 7:11:08 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fascinating to me Whats the muzzle velocity of a 155mm round? Depends on the Charge What's the projo weigh? Depends on the round For shorter shots do you angle up more or lessen powder charge? Depends on the charge and the round, and surrounding terrain What's the barrel life?Depends on the charge Does any arty still use brass cases? If not when was the last Not in the way you would think. The 105s still use a canister based propellant, but its not a single round. The prop, round, and fuse are all tailored to the specific fire mission There is a metric shit ton of math that plays into all of this. Different charges wear the barrels differently. High/Low angle depends on the range, munitions type, intervening crests, ect.
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Posted: 4/23/2017 7:17:40 AM EDT
[#19]
I'd bet @R0N knows something about this.
Maybe he can give us some knowledge. |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 7:20:44 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Some of the systems they canned recently would have revolutionized fires. Single guns that could independently fire missions that would normally take a platoon or battery to fire. Truly infuriating how much the artillery branch has been neglected and attrited during GWOT. Our precision stuff is pretty cool, but that's not what we are going to fight a near-peer with. |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 7:40:53 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was bored a few nights ago and watched a youtube video of a Civil War era 30lb Parrott artillery piece firing at a target 2,000 yd away. I wouldn't want to be down range of a 150ry old artillery piece either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzvRjazXeSAOf course it doesn't matter as far as destructive capability, but I thought it was interesting. |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 7:44:22 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Repeat, Out. <Punches Naffenea in the dick> Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
All i know is that if I say repeat on the radio artillery will magically appear out of no where and hit me wherever I am in the world. <Punches Naffenea in the dick> I wanted a repeat. |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 8:50:24 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep, why the NLOS was killed, I'll never know or understand.
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Posted: 4/23/2017 10:36:19 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. Drones are weather limited and have a fixed payload. The ones that are worth while are usually at the division level or higher. The Brigade level ones aren't usually large enough to arm, so really they are more of an observation platform than a delivery one. Weather and flight times have massive effects on airborne systems. Artillery and mortars are the only true all weather always on systems available to the ground user. |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 11:12:25 AM EDT
[#25]
The Last Battalion I was in at Fort Hood before Jump School was an Artillery Battalion.
 The King's a Fink.
There are TWO E-8's in an artillery battery: The First Sergeant and the Master Sergeant in charge of the Survey Section. Of course some things could have changed since then I suppose.
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Posted: 4/23/2017 11:24:55 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Date is wrong. It was 2003. 11th Marines Regimental fire mission. Every tube in Regiment fired. I think 6 rounds each. I believe it was DPICM RAP. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYR-H4Hgoz8 |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 11:32:38 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's been over 40 years since I've been around a 155. I remember most of the shit required to conduct a successful fire mission and recall that the amount of data is astonishing. A few years back I had some clown bragging about his kid and how someone else's kid wound up in the army 'shooting a cannon'. It was a case of some mamby pamby being a snob. When I asked him if he knew what it took to put steel on target at the range of, say, 10 miles he looked stunned. Much to the amusement of another vet and the parents of a kid on active duty I went on and on and on with the amount of math, physics and hands on stuff required to get steel on target. What turned his head into mush was when I mentioned barrel wear. "Uhhh....what's barrel wear? It's THAT technical?" I also said the army can teach kids to do this in about three months schooling after basic and pointed out that his son and his useless degree couldn't. Uhhh....uhhh....uhhh... There's a lot more to it than stuffing a jo and a few bags of powder into a gun and pulling a string. |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 11:59:38 AM EDT
[#28]
With good ammo,a good crew on the gun and a good FO on the ground really accurate.
Play with those variables and it can get sketchy pretty quick. I have affection for the 4 duece and 105mm |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 12:05:40 PM EDT
[#29]
I don't see artillery being replaced anytime soon. Even without Excalibur it's very accurate. Mountains make it harder but theyd always hit close enough that frag from the airburst would hit the target on the first round. (155s) and you're only a few minutes from impacts when you call it in. Planes could take an hour even with a grid to smash.
A 2000lb bomb is not 20x more effective than a 100lb shell. Same concept with mirvs/one big nuke |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 12:44:03 PM EDT
[#30]
When a battery is trying to register its guns where does it normally aim them?
How much distance to a civilian dwelling is considered safe when you are not sure exactly where your round will land pre-registration? When registering is it common to use low-angle trajectories to try to mitigate the risk of an enemy artillery-locating radar from finding it? Are there any other tactics to mitigate the risk of your rounds being detected before you have your guns registered? |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 12:46:34 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well... it's been my experience that friendly fire is far more accurate than enemy fire.  
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Posted: 4/23/2017 12:52:15 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is a fact. The most important branch of combat arms will always in the foreseeable future, and has always been in the past, the infantry. Artillery is far and above the competition the next most important combat arm as it provides a decisive advantage to friendly forces of any type over a large area. It is helo portable, air drop capable, or can be moved ship to shore by boat. It can fight in any conditions both as a direct or indirect fire weapon. Since the advent of explosive artillery shells it has also consistently been the primary killer on the battlefield in conflicts where it has been utilized. It isn't called the King of Battle without good reason. I love the Arty. Saved our asses on 2-27-91 when we came under Iraqi arty fire (122 mm impacted around you SUCKS and you will unass the AO asap)...counterbattery was quick and accurate. Shut them fuckers down hard. |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 12:53:12 PM EDT
[#33]
Tag
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Posted: 4/23/2017 1:07:37 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sorry, dumb question: why do they use a string to fire? Why not a button or trigger? Even in the tracked vehicles, they use a string/rope. Is it for simplicity and ruggedness and/or safety reasons? |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 1:22:46 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I always wondered how they did that. Good article on analog computers of WWII |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 1:39:43 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sorry, dumb question: why do they use a string to fire? Why not a button or trigger? Even in the tracked vehicles, they use a string/rope. Is it for simplicity and ruggedness and/or safety reasons? My only guess about the lanyard still being in use is simplicity and safety. It gives the soldier a few feet of standoff to the side of the barrel to minimize injury should it blow up. The lanyard is also a really simple firing mechanism, a button or electronic firing mechanism is more likely to fail. |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 1:48:34 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
During a live fire at Ft. Bragg, a 155mm crew fired a couple rounds (2, maybe 3) with the gun elevated. They then laid/dropped the barrel down, fired a couple more and all rounds landed on the target at the same time. Seemed impressive to a non-gunner.
The Germans have a 155mm that can put 5 rounds in the air at the same time with an auto loader. |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 1:57:17 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When a battery is trying to register its guns where does it normally aim them? Registration has to be done on a point that is both surveyed on a map, and can be seen by the observer. Registration is the process of determining the difference between the predicted firing solution and the actual data that hits the target. The observer and FDC select a location and shoot at it. Then they adjust until they are satisfied with the firing solution found. The FDC subtracts the did hit data from the should hit data to get the "Kentucky windage" if you will, for that gun from that spot, in that direction. The FDC can also do some math to separate the variables out of that windage in order to make it valid after weather changes. How much distance to a civilian dwelling is considered safe when you are not sure exactly where your round will land pre-registration? It depends on the projectile and range. Collateral damage is based on the inherent error in the cannon, the radius of the blast, and the accuracy of locating the target. When registering is it common to use low-angle trajectories to try to mitigate the risk of an enemy artillery-locating radar from finding it? Registration is not a requirement for accurate fire. If there is a risk of counterfire radar I wouldn't do a registration. Are there any other tactics to mitigate the risk of your rounds being detected before you have your guns registered? Shoot, and move. Staying on the "X" after shooting is how you catch counterfire. Registration has a place in modern warfare in defensive positions. If my guns are fixed for a long time, on a firebase or FOB, then I will register them. The artillery is always chasing precision. In an attack, or in a near-peer fight with a counterfire risk, my guns won't be in one place long enough for a registration to be worthwhile. |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 2:07:04 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, but as an FO, it's always boner-inducing when your call for fire results in first round steel-on-steel. 
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Posted: 4/23/2017 2:10:04 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Check out the NK shelling of Yeonpyeong island in 2010. Their accuracy and the reliability of their rounds appears to be quite good. SK response was rather lackluster at best. Not sure how much was lack of will on the part of the government or lack of ability/will of the SK military. Don't underestimate NK. https://goo.gl/maps/ppj3f4ACTZw I think these are 6 new positions, as I'm sure they've probably doubled their artillery presence now because of that incident. https://goo.gl/maps/ispbttb1ukG2 |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 2:13:29 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here is Civil War artillery against US armored personnel carriers. It is interesting to hear the rounds go overhead. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL1DkrYL70s |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 2:27:07 PM EDT
[#42]
From what I can gather the North Koreans run 170mm artillery, designated the Koksan with an effective firing range of 40-60km.
I'm sure a lot of those dug in guns around the DMZ already have their targets preset, however I wonder how accurate they will be as they've never been able to fire them from their current location. Wonder if will take a few rounds to get the dialed in to strategic targets.... unless they just don't care and any hit in Seoul is GTG. We've had 60+ years to figure out the battle plan against North Korea, I'd hope we are ready for what looks like is about to happen. |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 5:51:50 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From what I can gather the North Koreans run 170mm artillery, designated the Koksan with an effective firing range of 40-60km. I'm sure a lot of those dug in guns around the DMZ already have their targets preset, however I wonder how accurate they will be as they've never been able to fire them from their current location. Wonder if will take a few rounds to get the dialed in to strategic targets.... unless they just don't care and any hit in Seoul is GTG. We've had 60+ years to figure out the battle plan against North Korea, I'd hope we are ready for what looks like is about to happen. |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 6:01:37 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
During a live fire at Ft. Bragg, a 155mm crew fired a couple rounds (2, maybe 3) with the gun elevated. They then laid/dropped the barrel down, fired a couple more and all rounds landed on the target at the same time. Seemed impressive to a non-gunner. |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 7:08:40 PM EDT
[#45]
Awesome thread, thanks guys.
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Posted: 4/23/2017 7:20:44 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Awesome thread, thanks guys.
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Posted: 4/23/2017 8:18:01 PM EDT
[#47]
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Posted: 4/23/2017 9:15:22 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If anything, those small observation drones increase the importance of artillery. The Russians in Ukraine seem to have figured that out already. I hope we have too. I can attest that if you ambush a US formation, you never can tell if a drone is nearby or not. They are cheap, and can be plentiful. If you are on the run within range of US artillery and the drone sees you, you are probably going to die. Think quick: what do you do in that situation? Its tough to beat. A shadow UAV is a lot of fun to do call for fire with. |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 9:26:30 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't I know a lot about artillery, so I'm sure I'll get flamed for this question, but it's an honest one. Given drones, and our general air superiority, do you think artillery for the US will eventually be obsolete? I understand our guys can lay down a lot of ordinance, accurately. Can air support not do anything artillery can? I'll concede an aircraft has to be re-armed, and can't carry as much, but our wars lately haven't been against nations and traditional armies. Will artillery always have a place, or will we evolve past it? |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 9:27:40 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@30CalTBLkid |
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