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Posted: 5/2/2001 4:58:08 PM EST
What's the old saw? "Absolute power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely"? Case in point:
I have 45 of the G. Gordon Liddy 2001 "Stacked & Packed" calendars left. If anyone hasn't gotten it this is the last of them. Gordon sold out months ago. The cost is $20 for the first one and $15 for everyone after that. these are shipped USPS priority mail on boxes so the mail man can't bend or destroy them. LOL! Jus post here and email me if your interested in getting one. I'll sign every order also. jus gotta tell me how ya want them singed. take care, Rachel =) [ Edited By ANTIUSSA on 5/2/2001 10:41:15 AM ]
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I never realized that moderators could Edit members' posts. What was said that was deleted? What wasn't said that was added? How often does this occur? Us mere mortals will never know. Also, as I recall, the original post that started the flame war was posted by the editing moderator ANTIUSSA. No flames had yet started on this post, yet it was locked by the selfsame ANTIUSSA, despite the obvious conflict of interest. The locking message said it should have been moved to the "for sale" column, yet it was not, it just disappeared. I believe that's called tortious interference with prospective contractural relations. Food for thought.....
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 5:02:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/2/2001 5:05:34 PM EST by sherm8404]
Couldn't you've held off off on this til antiUSSA is at least out of the hopsital? C'mon, be fair about it. And godamn oldyschool, that's olde news anyways. Said. Done. Kissed(he wishes). Made up. Where you been?
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 5:04:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/2/2001 5:04:08 PM EST by sherm8404]
"The hospital? What is is? "It's a big building where they keep sick people. But that's not important right now."
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 5:14:50 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 5:15:59 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 5:17:48 PM EST
Absolute power? Yes. And they should have that. This is a private web site. If you don't like the rules, you can always surf the Nickelodean web site... CMOS
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 5:30:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 5:36:25 PM EST
If you look closely you will see the original post was moved by me. I signed both the original post when I locked it & the new one. I then reposted it completely over in the For Sale forums. I cut & pasted the original topic title & it's content. I didn't make any changes. I was at anti's PC in my factory.
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 5:39:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 6:23:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By oldeschool: What's the old saw? "Absolute power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely"? Case in point:....... The locking message said it should have been moved to the "for sale" column, yet it was not, it just disappeared......
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olde: You just didn't look far enough. I didn't want these two continuing their spat in General Discussion when there is a For Sale Forum for items for sale. You will see I locked the original with a post at 10:41 a.m. If you look at [url]www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=19620#lastPost[/url] you will see that it was opened exactly the same at 10:47 A.M. Sorry for the confussion over using anti's PC in his office.
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 6:58:17 PM EST
Ed Avila, Jr has absolute power; he can edit, delete, move, or add anything he wishes at the database level, and there'd be no proof visible to anyone. Of course, he owns the servers, and that's his right.
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Well, if Ed Avila, Jr. owns the hardware, I guess he has the power to add, delete, or move anything he wants. I don't have a problem with that as long as it is not done covertly, to change content of the post and make the poster look like McUzi or something. If he wants to do that, well, I guess there's nothing we can do about it except not come here, but, then where are we going to go to find like minded people? Like I said --Absolute Power--pray for a benevolent "God"...
What's your beef? Or do you not understand that virtually all forums currently on the web work this way?
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Yeah, intellectually, I did/do. But when the "Power" is excercised rarely, at least as far as we know, then you fall under the illusion that it's just the frontier experience of the Net, until the UN regulates it. Thanks for the wake up call. Now, getting back to the first point about Ed Avila, Jr. owning the server, etc., I have to ask myself this....what is his percentage here? Why is he providing this website for us? I had assumed that he was just an enthusiast that happened to be more technologicaly savvy than most, had a few extra bucks to spare for hardware, and would one day be "sainted" for his good deeds among us RKBA guys. Is that the case? Or is this some government scam to compile a "kick in these guys doors first" list? I hope it's the former....shit, on second thought, I'm changing my webname to "NewWavePCMofo", reformatting my hard drive, and moving to North Dakota...later...[;)]
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 7:04:34 PM EST
yup, they got the power
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 7:05:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By oldeschool: What's the old saw? "Absolute power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely"? Case in point:
I have 45 of the G. Gordon Liddy 2001 "Stacked & Packed" calendars left. If anyone hasn't gotten it this is the last of them. Gordon sold out months ago. The cost is $20 for the first one and $15 for everyone after that. these are shipped USPS priority mail on boxes so the mail man can't bend or destroy them. LOL! Jus post here and email me if your interested in getting one. I'll sign every order also. jus gotta tell me how ya want them singed. take care, Rachel =) [ Edited By ANTIUSSA on 5/2/2001 10:41:15 AM ]
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[Quote edited by me for length]
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Hey, I must have missed that thread.......Where can I get one of those calendars. [;)]
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 7:09:53 PM EST
The simple fact is, whatever power CAN be abused, WILL be abused.
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That statement is as true and unvariable as the law of gravity. It's just a matter of time.
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 7:15:57 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 7:18:13 PM EST
What absolute power, most of the time we can scoop up the mess some members leave on these forums. You'll notice that about a good 98 percent of the posts remain untouched, that is undeleted, unlocked and unedited. The remaining 2 percent are just plain against the rules Edward laid down on these forums. Please let me remind you that this is not a publicly owned forum, your membership here is free. The site, its domain and its content are owned privately. As such the owner is free to appoint people to uphold the rules he wishes to lay down. Real simple, dont like the rules feel free to seek another site. Kuiper
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 7:28:33 PM EST
I would say that all the moderators here keep a level head most of the time. I personally won't bother a thread just because it bothers me. I will, however, lock or delete something that is way out of bounds, overly graphic without a warning, or just a deliberate attempt to break the rules.
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 8:04:44 PM EST
What absolute power, most of the time we can scoop up the mess some members leave on these forums. You'll notice that about a good 98 percent of the posts remain untouched, that is undeleted, unlocked and unedited. The remaining 2 percent are just plain against the rules Edward laid down on these forums. Please let me remind you that this is not a publicly owned forum, your membership here is free. The site, its domain and its content are owned privately. As such the owner is free to appoint people to uphold the rules he wishes to lay down. Real simple, dont like the rules feel free to seek another site. Kuiper
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Kuiper, I don't have a problem with you setting the rules, since this is your "house"...or to be more accurate, Ed Avila, Jr's house, and you are one of the house "persons" Most of the time, as far as I can tell, you guys do the right thing. The problem I had was with a Moderator a/k/a "board god" with an obvious conflict of interest shutting down a post...then I find out that it wasn't him but his buddy who had access to his computer while the guy with the conflict of interest was in the hospital... Point is, if you have the Power, it must be awfully tempting to change a word or phrase here and there with someone you are having a disagreement with to make them look like a total asshole, isn't it? Now admit it. Even if you've never done that, you've at least thought about it, haven't you? You can take the Fifth on that if you want to. Hey, if you want to disagree with me, insult me, debate me, go ahead. Just don't edit my replies to make me look like McUzi [:D]
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 8:19:31 PM EST
If one of us edits your reply, our name shows up in the bottom, therefore holding us accountable somewhat.
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 8:22:48 PM EST
Oldeschool; If you dislike how the moderators handle issues and in-force a code of conduct on these message boards. Then maybe I should suggest you find a board that meets your expectations. This also is true to anyone else who feels the same. Because no one forces a person to come here and post.
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Why are you all trying to get rid of the voice of dissent?? David, there was no code of conduct being violated when that thread was locked. It was an apparent, although not acutal, conflict of interest and abuse of power. And if you don't know that whatever arbitrary absolute power/discretion invested in a human will be abused eventually, then you are very naieve (never could spell that word), i.e., young and/or gullible. That being said, I have never had a problem with the moderators before today, except when they use their postion to vindicate their point of view (and that's been apologized for and is not an issue) or when I saw what I perceived to be a vendetta being used to shut down a post because he had a personal issue with the poster. BTW, I'll be happy to ask you some reloading questions, as long as you promise not to smoke while filling the powder tube. [:D]
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 8:27:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By oldeschool: I believe that's called tortious interference with prospective contractural relations. Food for thought.....
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Well, I've tried and I believe succeeded in removing all the knowledge I gained in Torts and Contracts from my poor brain, so bare with me... It's a privately owned/operated board, so I would believe that you do not HAVE to let anyone advertise their wares here. As far as "absolute power", well, again, it's just a discussion board, so I'm not to worried about antiUSSA kicking down my door in JBT gear because I posted something he didn't like, so his power isn't exactly "absolute," is it?
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 8:30:20 PM EST
I think we can trust these guys. [red][size=4]P.R.K.
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 8:50:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By oldeschool: Hey, if you want to disagree with me, insult me, debate me, go ahead. Just don't edit my replies to make me look like McUzi .
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Right now you are looking like McUzi without anyones help in your hunt for a conspiracy. I'm personally very sorry about the wounding you have received over your trampled rights. Maybe if you were to protest by going elsewhere the Moderators would see the error of their ways and change the rules whereby moderating would be abolished. Do it for us! (If you do not like the content of this message it is because it was secretly edited by a jack booted Moderator).
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 9:10:52 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 9:20:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/2/2001 9:19:37 PM EST by CavVet]
....put the pipe down........ ......back away from the lsd..... FIRST, I agree this IS a private forum, you have NO rights whatsoever, and should be SO GRATEFUL this forum even exists..... SECOND---> I THINK <---- this forum contains the freedoms I EXPECT and/or READ in MY Constitutiion, from my Government....(I personally think the freedoms granted here are sometimes WAY more than SOME deserve) THIRD...IF for a second, you feel there is a totalitarian dictatroship here, I would suggest you visit the 1911 forum. They move posts because they THINK (and I mean move a LOT of posts) it would be better suited in another section. IF you DARE say something regarding that, your reply is deleted, THEN you are sent a NASTY email AND your name is deleted AND your posting privledges are revoked..... FIRST TIME OUT...... Go over there and look at all the locked threads...Go over there and call someone corrupt... The next thing you will hear is 'olde who???'
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 10:21:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/2/2001 10:45:10 PM EST by M4]
Originally Posted By oldeschool: I never realized that moderators could Edit members' posts. What was said that was deleted? What wasn't said that was added? How often does this occur? Us mere mortals will never know. Also, as I recall, the original post that started the flame war was posted by the editing moderator ANTIUSSA. No flames had yet started on this post, yet it was locked by the selfsame ANTIUSSA, despite the obvious conflict of interest. The locking message said it should have been moved to the "for sale" column, yet it was not, it just disappeared. I believe that's called tortious interference with prospective contractural relations. Food for thought.....
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I had a very simple post of mine edited by antiUSSA. At the time it struck me as surprising that doing that, even on a simple level was acceptable at all. Then again, I don't make the rules here, so I emailed the web site admin about it, and he emailed me back in seeming agreement with me. I provided a link to the edited post in question, explained my point and sent a second email. There was no follow up after I sent the link, despite emailing him back about it 3 or 4 times over a month or so. Still no reply by the admin here. It was as obvious as the above example, so I don't think there was any confusion. It sort of amazes me that there are a select few here, who have been given the ability to alter the very words we post. I'm not talking about locking or deleting a thread. I'm not talking about posting a reply in [i]response[/i]to a post. I'm talking about actually editing a members posted thoughts for no reason other than their own amusement. I understand that I don't have any say in the rules to the way this web site is run. I'm just surprised that the "some animals are more equal than others" attitude is considered business as usual. This sort of thing is based far more on principle than actual damage, but still, the very credibility of this site is largely determined on how it's run. I love this place, and I think allowing a select few randoms to alter the very words we type here is a very poor judgement call. P.S.- The edited post of mine, by the way, was WELL within site policy. There was nothing that even approached a violation, just every day dialog. I never started a thread about it either, just decided to move on, but I read here about it happening again so I'm just sharing a similar experience.
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 10:24:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By TREETOP: If one of us edits your reply, our name shows up in the bottom, therefore holding us accountable somewhat.
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Link Posted: 5/2/2001 10:32:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By Kuiper: Real simple, dont like the rules feel free to seek another site. Kuiper
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Kuiper.... I respect most of the moderators here, and sincerely believe they do a damn good job. Just want you to understand where I'm coming from. I also realize that this is a privately owned site. I think the concern is not so much not liking the rules, but not liking rules you would have never imagined would exist in the first place. Really, why would anyone ever think that a moderator, simply for their own amusement, would actually [i]edit[/i] a members post? Is the "Reply" command on their computer broken? We don't have the benefit of facial expression or body language to guage intentions of others while online. Respect of an individuals thoughts and words, if they're within site policy, is best displayed by [i]not[/i] violating them for the sake of entertainment. Again, I think some simply find it surprising that this behavior by one of the sites chosen moderators is tolerated and defended. Nobody is trying to rewrite the rules here, just trying to figure out what the rules actually are, for ALL of us.
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 5:19:13 AM EST
M4, For some time now the basic set of rules was clicked okay on when you first registered. These were the basic UBB rules of the old AR15.com forum. After the first, second and third wave of flamefests, pissing matches and so on. We, DonR, AntiUSSA, Edward SR en JR and me agreed on a set of rules. And posted these, the same rules are posted now again by Goatboy. Only this time we reached a point where these breaking forum policy will actually run you the "risk" of getting your account suspended or blocked. I can understand the need for clearity, and I also know there's a majority right now that asks him or herself what all the fuss is about. And I say good for them, because obviously they dont know how much was done to get these forums where they are today. If one feels personally attacked or mistreated by an action of a moderator, you can either directly mail that particular moderator. Or take it to Edward or Goatboy if that doesnt solve matters. I have no absolute power, I do this because like you firearms and AR15's are the things I love and want a forum/website to visit with likeminded people. Any time Goatboy or Ed feels I am abusing the "power" they gave me they can take it away. So far I've been moderating the Maintenance forum for several years now and the GD forum since somewhere in late '99. Hope this explains some stuff Kuiper
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 5:31:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By oldeschool: .......Most of the time, as far as I can tell, you guys do the right thing. The problem I had was with a Moderator a/k/a "board god" with an obvious conflict of interest shutting down a post...then I find out that it wasn't him but his buddy who had access to his computer while the guy with the conflict of interest was in the hospital... Point is, if you have the Power, it must be awfully tempting to change a word or phrase here and there with someone you are having a disagreement with to make them look like a total asshole, isn't it? Now admit it. Even if you've never done that, you've at least thought about it, haven't you? You can take the Fifth on that if you want to. Hey, if you want to disagree with me, insult me, debate me, go ahead. Just don't edit my replies to make me look like McUzi [:D]
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olde: Since it was my action that prompted this I tried to explain & I hoped it would be understood. I tried to avoid any appearance of what you suggested (editing) by signing my name - Grin - & making an explanation. Don't hold anti to this action. The reason I locked & moved was stated but appears to have been missed. If I edited the post I'm sure the original poster would have said something about it. She tries to choose her words carefully & isn't bashful about trying to make her point. Perhaps you can see a difference in my style moderation from anti's. I didn't want to just delete the post that would have caused a bigger mess.
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 8:24:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By Kuiper: M4, For some time now the basic set of rules was clicked okay on when you first registered. These were the basic UBB rules of the old AR15.com forum. After the first, second and third wave of flamefests, pissing matches and so on. We, DonR, AntiUSSA, Edward SR en JR and me agreed on a set of rules. And posted these, the same rules are posted now again by Goatboy. Only this time we reached a point where these breaking forum policy will actually run you the "risk" of getting your account suspended or blocked. I can understand the need for clearity, and I also know there's a majority right now that asks him or herself what all the fuss is about. And I say good for them, because obviously they dont know how much was done to get these forums where they are today. If one feels personally attacked or mistreated by an action of a moderator, you can either directly mail that particular moderator. Or take it to Edward or Goatboy if that doesnt solve matters. I have no absolute power, I do this because like you firearms and AR15's are the things I love and want a forum/website to visit with likeminded people. Any time Goatboy or Ed feels I am abusing the "power" they gave me they can take it away. So far I've been moderating the Maintenance forum for several years now and the GD forum since somewhere in late '99. Hope this explains some stuff Kuiper
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Kuiper.... I appreciate your comments. You are certainly a fair moderator in my experience. To my knowlege you have never edited a members actual post either, and that's what the question here really is. Maybe I missed the posting of this "rule", and if I did I appologize. However, when a VERY plain, nonviolating post of mine WAS edited, I took the course of action you recommend(to Goatboy)and it was ignored. I think if you reread my previous 2 posts on this thread, the concerns regarding moderator behavior are pretty clear. I also think that addressing those specific questions would be helpful for members to understand the rules moderators are instructed to follow. Like I said earlier, why would any member here just assume that when they post on this board, one of the moderators just might be bored enough to actually us their "power" to alter someone elses thoughts? Lets be reasonable, can we? Is questioning that sort of behavior really a surprise to you? I respectfully request that my previous 2 posts here be reread, and addressed for the actual questions they contain. It had nothing to do with locking a thread, moving a thread, replying to a thread or deleating a thread. It has to do with editing another persons words, in my case, for absolutely no reason. Thanks for your time, and please understand that the reason this bothers me is because I love coming to this site, and think that a policy of unwarrented privacy violation does far more harm than good. Moderating for the good of the site is one thing, but the examples in my posts here definately do not fall in to that catagory.
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 8:29:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/3/2001 8:31:13 AM EST by M4]
By the way, can't a moderator chose the path of respect and simply [i]reply[/i] to a post rather than repeatedly chosing the low road and altering a post? What message exactly do you think is sent when the latter choice is used by a moderator?
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 8:56:30 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 9:43:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/3/2001 9:43:38 AM EST by M4]
Thanks for the reply Ed. I agree with everything you said with one exception. "Again,rest assured,we don't go around changing things for our amusement.When we intervene,it is for the benefit of the board. " In my case it clearly was solely for the amusement of one of the moderators. There was absolutely no reason to alter the post of mine. No violations were present at all. Even the wording of his editing was clearly based on an attempt at humor. I was just wondering why, in that instance, the path of least respect was opted for first when an abundance of options are at the moderators disposal. Especially since no moderator intervention was needed in the first place. This subject, as far as I'm concerned, is closed. I was just hoping for a specific answer to a specific instance and apparently there isn't one available.
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 10:11:47 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 11:39:46 AM EST
Goatboy, Correct me if I am wrong, but the site has a team of moderators. And Ed sr. and DonR have been appointed, for lack of better words, teamleaders? I can live with that, you and Ed have appointed us moderators. I for one can certainly live with being "controlled" on the job. Like I said before, good idea and it has my full support. Kuiper
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 1:11:58 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 1:20:19 PM EST
Goatboy..... I appreciate you taking the time to address this. I realize you are very busy, and I definately appreciate the site you've worked hard to create. Obviously the rules created here are your call, and from your statements posted here it is clear that those rules are professional and fair. Again, thanks for your input. M4
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 1:37:03 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 8:29:05 PM EST
Although I don't know all the moderators well, I trust in the opinions of Ed and EdSr who have spent their days and nights here and continue to do so. Their trust and faith in you guys is 100% reflected through me and why I see this topic and issue as a flashback to the past. On the same token I am not going to just side with you because you ask me to, as judge and jury I must listen to all sides and take into account all evidence. ..... You are not being watched, but like police officers, abuse of an innocent will not be tolerated, especially if caught on tape.
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GoatBoy, er, should I say "Lord" [;)], I think you have more than addressed my original concerns, even though they turned out to be unfounded due to the fact that the "posting" Moderator was not really the posting Moderator. [BTW, hope the absent moderator's surgery went well] Flames, insults, whatever, I can deal with, as long as "Gawd" isn't transmogrifying my words for his/her amusement and making me look worse than I might otherwise appear. BTW, again, great site. [beer]
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 8:47:15 PM EST
Durn man .... this was a "deep" thread.....anybody wanna pop tart ??? [:D]
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