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Posted: 3/23/2017 7:53:48 PM EDT
[#1]
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In this case, it's more like knowing the guy has the body inside a locked safe, and you obtained a search warrant to obtain entry. He's obstructing justice/ ignoring a warrant by refusing to unlock the door. Fifth Amendment covers TESTIMONY, not what is effectively destruction of evidence subject to a lawful search warrant. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You're using indefinite detention to compel the accused to aid in their own prosecution. 
You're a cop aren't you, or maybe a prosecutor? How's this, a guy is accused of murder, but you don't know where the body is. Can you lock him up until he tells you where it is? Is that a violation of his rights, why or why not? The act of producing the electronic key is by nature testimonial. It proves he has access to the material on the drive. If they want the data, then they can break into the drive. Or not. But they can't force one to produce the contents of their own mind in order to produce more evidence. They've got plenty of evidence as it is, it's up to a jury to decide if it's enough to convict him. They don't want to take it to a jury because they want to create precedent for forcing people to turn over encryption keys just like the europeans have done. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 7:56:34 PM EDT
[#2]
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nothing in the Constitution requires one to provide evidence against themselves to the govt on a silver plater, but there is that bit about not being a witness against himself |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 7:56:46 PM EDT
[#3]
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Can you block cops from coming into your house to collect evidence if they have a search warrant? If you do, can you be jailed and charged with a crime? |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 7:58:03 PM EDT
[#4]
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Swing and a miss. Like watching Charlie Brown with the football. lol |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 7:59:18 PM EDT
[#5]
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4th Amendment actually has some say in that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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nothing in the Constitution requires one to provide evidence against themselves to the govt on a silver plater, but there is that bit about not being a witness against himself |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 7:59:32 PM EDT
[#6]
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Nah. plenty of 4th Amendment case law out there to support the State's position. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Swing and a miss. Like watching Charlie Brown with the football. lol |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:01:26 PM EDT
[#7]
This is like saying, "We know you killed the victim, but we cannot find the body. Tell us where you hid the body or we will lock you up for life for contempt of court." It can be applied to anything, from murder to a lost library book. Either provide evidence to aid the government or face prison until you do. It is obscene.
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:02:56 PM EDT
[#8]
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He's not doing shit, he's sitting in a cell. The authorities have the evidence, they just can't read it. It's no different than if he wrote in some language he invented and only he could read, can you lock him up and make him translate it? The clear intent of the 5th Amendment is to prevent the government from coercing people to aid in their own prosecutions because that is too readily abused. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You're using indefinite detention to compel the accused to aid in their own prosecution.
You're a cop aren't you, or maybe a prosecutor? The authorities have the evidence, they just can't read it. It's no different than if he wrote in some language he invented and only he could read, can you lock him up and make him translate it? The clear intent of the 5th Amendment is to prevent the government from coercing people to aid in their own prosecutions because that is too readily abused. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:03:19 PM EDT
[#9]
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Forensics could show the drive being mounted and if you're lucky you'll see drive paths / file system references on the host machine. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:05:01 PM EDT
[#10]
Equally important to the self-incrimination issue is the basic due process issue, and the Courts have been ducking this for decades. Generally, the Courts have held that the defendant has the keys to their own imprisonment, but the legal profession has known for some time that indefinite imprisonment without a jury trial is not compatible with the Constitution. Usually they duck the issue by releasing the defendant after a year or so. But if they press this issue the courts may finally have to address it. They don't want to, because they want the threat of indefinite prison to scare compliance, but they may have to.
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:05:18 PM EDT
[#11]
TLDR
File encryption protects you from everyone but the police and the government. Am I right? 
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:05:56 PM EDT
[#12]
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I know you're pissed that people can no longer hide their kiddy porn behind encryption but I'm not sure what translation of some imaginary language has to do with any of this. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You're using indefinite detention to compel the accused to aid in their own prosecution.
You're a cop aren't you, or maybe a prosecutor? The authorities have the evidence, they just can't read it. It's no different than if he wrote in some language he invented and only he could read, can you lock him up and make him translate it? The clear intent of the 5th Amendment is to prevent the government from coercing people to aid in their own prosecutions because that is too readily abused. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:06:08 PM EDT
[#13]
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I know you're pissed that people can no longer hide their kiddy porn behind encryption but I'm not sure what translation of some imaginary language has to do with any of this. We know that you don't like us plebeians using our rights, but calls if child porn aren't going to move me. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:08:18 PM EDT
[#14]
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No they won't. The encrypted drive could be mounted at any letter or path. The well designed software leaves no trace. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Forensics could show the drive being mounted and if you're lucky you'll see drive paths / file system references on the host machine. OSX doesn't use drive letters for one. There is no "well designed software." It is almost certain that there are plenty of references to the files on the encrypted drive in the main OS (in fact it's in one of the articles on this, I don't recall whether it's the one in the OP or another one I read). That information is enough to infer that there are files that are illegal on the encrypted drive. Still doesn't mean the state can force someone to decrypt the drive. Take it to a jury with the evidence they have, not the evidence they wish they had. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:12:34 PM EDT
[#15]
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Ok so you've got a warrant, that means you can access the drive. It doesn't mean that the accused has to help you access the drive. This is such a cut and dry 5th amendment violation that it's a wonder anyone can be so willfully ignorant as to not understand it. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:14:05 PM EDT
[#16]
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You clearly aren't familiar with how modern operating systems work. OSX doesn't use drive letters for one. There is no "well designed software." It is almost certain that there are plenty of references to the files on the encrypted drive in the main OS (in fact it's in one of the articles on this, I don't recall whether it's the one in the OP or another one I read). That information is enough to infer that there are files that are illegal on the encrypted drive. Still doesn't mean the state can force someone to decrypt the drive. Take it to a jury with the evidence they have, not the evidence they wish they had. The only thing that MIGHT be left behind is file names. There will be no hashes. There will be nothing that can prove beyond a reasonable doubt the nature of the files. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:15:38 PM EDT
[#17]
Fun fact: The longest time a person has served for contempt was 14 years. Some lawyer from Pennsylvania really didn't want to turn over some funds to his ex-wife
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:16:32 PM EDT
[#18]
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Nope. I don't know a thing about mordern operating systems. That's why I said letter or path. The only thing that MIGHT be left behind is file names. There will be no hashes. There will be nothing that can prove beyond a reasonable doubt the nature of the files. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You clearly aren't familiar with how modern operating systems work. OSX doesn't use drive letters for one. There is no "well designed software." It is almost certain that there are plenty of references to the files on the encrypted drive in the main OS (in fact it's in one of the articles on this, I don't recall whether it's the one in the OP or another one I read). That information is enough to infer that there are files that are illegal on the encrypted drive. Still doesn't mean the state can force someone to decrypt the drive. Take it to a jury with the evidence they have, not the evidence they wish they had. The only thing that MIGHT be left behind is file names. There will be no hashes. There will be nothing that can prove beyond a reasonable doubt the nature of the files. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:19:06 PM EDT
[#19]
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Can you block cops from coming into your house to collect evidence if they have a search warrant? If you do, can you be jailed and charged with a crime? Of course, if you don't, they are free to rip the door off the hinges. Same thing here. He's not blocking them; the police have possession of the thing they want to search. If they don't have the technological ability to 'rip that door of the hinges' that shouldn't be the problem of the accused. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:20:13 PM EDT
[#20]
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You are making statements of absolutes when you don't have any of the details necessary to make those statements. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:21:14 PM EDT
[#21]
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From my point of view, forcing someone to decrypt their own personal documents is the same as forcing a defendant to testify against himself. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:28:15 PM EDT
[#22]
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As are you. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You are making statements of absolutes when you don't have any of the details necessary to make those statements. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:29:31 PM EDT
[#23]
Of course it's child porn.
Just like it was machine guns and grenades... The government has a legal warrant? Let them seize the hard drive. Let them keep the hard drive while attempting to break into it. Forcing a defendant to decrypt it is a slippery slope, in my opinion. This reminds me of of a comic I saw years back. 
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:29:41 PM EDT
[#24]
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No, I'm not. But then again I know how computers work and I have extensive experience with a variety of file encryption software, including filevault. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You are making statements of absolutes when you don't have any of the details necessary to make those statements. Show me some documentation that shows that file hashes will be left behind when using filevault encryption. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:30:11 PM EDT
[#25]
If what the court document said is true he needs to be shot.
Now OTOH If you don't have enough evidence to convict him or send him to court pedo boy goes free. Sounds like they have enough evidence to take him to trial, why do they need the pics? As much as I want to believe he is a pedo that needs shooting, there are other things that make me question the entire thing. I wonder how long you can be held in prison without being charged? I think he is just waiting it out. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:33:39 PM EDT
[#26]
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Great. I love to learn. Show me some documentation that shows that file hashes will be left behind when using filevault encryption. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You are making statements of absolutes when you don't have any of the details necessary to make those statements. Show me some documentation that shows that file hashes will be left behind when using filevault encryption. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:34:08 PM EDT
[#27]
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It is quite interesting: https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/fedsrawls.pdf |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:37:10 PM EDT
[#28]
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Right, cause impeding an investigation and hiding evidence is no longer a crime.  He has no obligation to help the investigation either, so it's a bit of a toss up. Otherwise we would charge everyone who plead not guilty with obstruction too, right? |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:38:21 PM EDT
[#29]
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Land of the free, and if you disagree, you're a pedo sympathizer.  |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:42:51 PM EDT
[#30]
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Josh is correct. You can start with the affidavit posted on page 1, for starters. Here's a hint: Lots of peer-to-peer software uses SHA-1 as part of their protocols / network. Lots of those programs write log files to the OS drive. You can figure the rest out yourself. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You are making statements of absolutes when you don't have any of the details necessary to make those statements. Show me some documentation that shows that file hashes will be left behind when using filevault encryption. And I have figured the rest out for myself. SAH1 hashes are meaningless. Or perhaps you haven't heard about the SHA1 collision technique. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:46:05 PM EDT
[#31]
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Quite indeed. Although frankly it looks like they have enough to take it to trial as is. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It is quite interesting: https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/fedsrawls.pdf |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:46:20 PM EDT
[#32]
Related: Wasn't there a guy who had degaussing coils installed in the frame of his door, so when the authorities removed his computer, it was wiped clean? The guy was found guilty of destroying evidence, IIRC.
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:48:18 PM EDT
[#33]
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None of that relates to the encryption or OS leaving those hashes. That is the P2P program leaving hashes. And I have figured the rest out for myself. SAH1 hashes are meaningless. Or perhaps you haven't heard about the SHA1 collision technique. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:49:10 PM EDT
[#34]
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Related: Wasn't there a guy who had degaussing coils installed in the frame of his door, so when the authorities removed his computer, it was wiped clean? The guy was found guilty of destroying evidence, IIRC. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:49:40 PM EDT
[#35]
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Can you block cops from coming into your house to collect evidence if they have a search warrant? If you do, can you be jailed and charged with a crime? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You're using indefinite detention to compel the accused to aid in their own prosecution.
You're a cop aren't you, or maybe a prosecutor? |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:49:46 PM EDT
[#36]
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It's a birthday attack and irrelevant to the conversation. But please keep pretending you know what you're talking about. It's entertaining. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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None of that relates to the encryption or OS leaving those hashes. That is the P2P program leaving hashes. And I have figured the rest out for myself. SAH1 hashes are meaningless. Or perhaps you haven't heard about the SHA1 collision technique. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:51:52 PM EDT
[#37]
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Can you block cops from coming into your house to collect evidence if they have a search warrant? If you do, can you be jailed and charged with a crime? Let the jury decide. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:52:02 PM EDT
[#38]
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The question is really, "is providing the password providing testimony against ones self?" I'd say it is no more so than providing your address when the cops want to search your home. He's not being asked what he put on the drive but rather he's being required to provide access to the drive under a warrant. He has no obligation to help the investigation either, so it's a bit of a toss up. Otherwise we would charge everyone who plead not guilty with obstruction too, right? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Right, cause impeding an investigation and hiding evidence is no longer a crime. He has no obligation to help the investigation either, so it's a bit of a toss up. Otherwise we would charge everyone who plead not guilty with obstruction too, right? |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:54:36 PM EDT
[#39]
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Can you block cops from coming into your house to collect evidence if they have a search warrant? If you do, can you be jailed and charged with a crime? |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:55:16 PM EDT
[#40]
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It is worse than you know. A properly implemented whole disk encryption system is indistinguishable from random data. That drive could be empty. It might not even be encrypted. There may not be a key to unlock it. One password opens a empty folder, another opens the folder with all the files on it. Even better if the open folder has irrelevant files that mirror the used space taken up by the other files. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:56:34 PM EDT
[#41]
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:56:44 PM EDT
[#42]
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But you don't have to help them search your house. In fact, usually help is not looked upon kindly. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Can you block cops from coming into your house to collect evidence if they have a search warrant? If you do, can you be jailed and charged with a crime? |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:59:46 PM EDT
[#43]
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I know you're pissed that people can no longer hide their kiddy porn behind encryption but I'm not sure what translation of some imaginary language has to do with any of this. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You're using indefinite detention to compel the accused to aid in their own prosecution.
You're a cop aren't you, or maybe a prosecutor? The authorities have the evidence, they just can't read it. It's no different than if he wrote in some language he invented and only he could read, can you lock him up and make him translate it? The clear intent of the 5th Amendment is to prevent the government from coercing people to aid in their own prosecutions because that is too readily abused. They have enough evidence to convict this guy, they just want to be able to force people to do whatever they want good or bad. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 9:00:06 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is like saying, "We know you killed the victim, but we cannot find the body. Tell us where you hid the body or we will lock you up for life for contempt of court." It can be applied to anything, from murder to a lost library book. Either provide evidence to aid the government or face prison until you do. It is obscene. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 9:00:10 PM EDT
[#45]
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None of that relates to the encryption or OS leaving those hashes. That is the P2P program leaving hashes. And I have figured the rest out for myself. SAH1 hashes are meaningless. Or perhaps you haven't heard about the SHA1 collision technique. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You are making statements of absolutes when you don't have any of the details necessary to make those statements. Show me some documentation that shows that file hashes will be left behind when using filevault encryption. And I have figured the rest out for myself. SAH1 hashes are meaningless. Or perhaps you haven't heard about the SHA1 collision technique. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 9:00:12 PM EDT
[#46]
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Link or search terms? I'm interested. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Related: Wasn't there a guy who had degaussing coils installed in the frame of his door, so when the authorities removed his computer, it was wiped clean? The guy was found guilty of destroying evidence, IIRC. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 9:02:38 PM EDT
[#47]
SSDD. Obligatory XKCD.
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Posted: 3/23/2017 9:05:46 PM EDT
[#48]
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Which just indicates that they're using this case as a tool to establish a precedent that they can coerce a defendant to provide encryption keys and aid in their own prosecution. They chose to use this case because it's obvious he has CP, and they want that emotional factor to override people's objectivity. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It is quite interesting: https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/fedsrawls.pdf |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 9:09:01 PM EDT
[#49]
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Josh is correct. You can start with the affidavit posted on page 1, for starters. Here's a hint: Lots of peer-to-peer software uses SHA-1 as part of their protocols / network. Lots of those programs write log files to the OS drive. You can figure the rest out yourself. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You are making statements of absolutes when you don't have any of the details necessary to make those statements. Show me some documentation that shows that file hashes will be left behind when using filevault encryption. If he is a pedo I hope he goes to jail a long time. I however think he needs to go to trial and have his day in court hard drives or no hard drives. If they had enough evidence to deny his appeal why wouldn't they have enough info to take him to court? |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 9:10:32 PM EDT
[#50]
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Ah, right you are. Just read up on the case under discussion. Seems they have proof of him downloading specific known kiddie files. Sounds like he left enough breadcrumbs on his Mac to eliminate doubt. He was likely caught in one of those FBI stings. Either FileVault is very secure (they can't break it) or they can break it but need to keep that capability in the dark by forcing him to provide the unnecessary keys. So many questions and I am morally torn because, while he no doubt faps to kiddie porn, he also has the same rights anyone accused of a crime should have. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yeah, it's bullshit. I've been following this case since the beginning and while I have no love for pedos, I do respect their rights as a US citizen and that includes illegal search and seizure and detention. The case hinges around a border agent catching a glimpse of what the THOUGHT was kiddie porn on the screen. The laptop then shutdown and now requires the PGP Whole Disk Encryption password to boot / decrypt the rest of the hard drive. So this guy is in prison because some border agent SAYS he saw what LOOKED LIKE kiddie porn. May have been some of that loli hentai stuff, may have been the real deal, whatever. The guy still has rights. This is also why it is important to NOT use the fingerprint recognition features of your devices. The DOJ can compel you to swipe a finger but cannot compel you to reveal the combination to your safe or the password to your device. I suppose they can lock you up forever without charges now instead. This is also why I want Apple et al to incorporate a fingerprint destruct scan. If you can set a device up to destroy the keys in the Secure Enclave you can effectively destroy all the data. Of course you also have to make the SE resistant to duplication. Gov't: Here, press your registered finger here. You: OK! {press} Phone: "Not recognized, try again" while destroying the SE in the background. Seems they have proof of him downloading specific known kiddie files. Sounds like he left enough breadcrumbs on his Mac to eliminate doubt. He was likely caught in one of those FBI stings. Either FileVault is very secure (they can't break it) or they can break it but need to keep that capability in the dark by forcing him to provide the unnecessary keys. So many questions and I am morally torn because, while he no doubt faps to kiddie porn, he also has the same rights anyone accused of a crime should have. |
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