User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:01:48 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't need a lesson in economics. I understand pretty well why things are the way they are and I'm not even bitching about that. I'm hoping the manufacturers who are pushing for legalization are ready for commoditization of the suppressor market. Telling people that it costs a thousands dollars because CNC isn't going to cut it once they are legal. Silencers are legal today and have always been legal since they were invented, they are just regulated. De-Regulation will drive prices down some, but quality branded product will never be cheap. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:02:19 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Okay, so you're saying none of that stuff is required to make an AR-15? Because I can buy complete AR-15's all day long for $500 right now. You're telling me a pipe with washers and threeaded endcaps should cost 1.5-2.5x more than a complete AR-15? I'm pretty sure that making one rifle barrel is more complex and time consuming than making most suppressors. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Ok let me help you.... Cost of CNc machines Cost of itar Cost of license Cost of sot Cost of insurance for company Cost of taxes for company Cost of benefits for employees Cost of SS for employees Cost of workers comp Cost of training Cost of material Cost of labor Cost of marketing Cost of r&d Cost of percentage on loans Shits cheap yo, now go start your business for $100 inconel and titanium cans at a major loss or go be poor somewhere else. Okay, so you're saying none of that stuff is required to make an AR-15? Because I can buy complete AR-15's all day long for $500 right now. You're telling me a pipe with washers and threeaded endcaps should cost 1.5-2.5x more than a complete AR-15? I'm pretty sure that making one rifle barrel is more complex and time consuming than making most suppressors. Why is an AR15 and a glock the same price? Obviously much more goes into the AR comparatively. Seems like the glock should be about $300 by that model. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:03:49 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why does this cost $165,000 used (it's made out of some cheap steel tubing, wood and fabric forfucksake): http://barnstormers.com/classified_files/1/2/2/0/8/9/5/.watermarked_8a348577e9fc4dff3bb4e25350e19c20.jpg When I can buy one of these brand new for $16,825: http://o.aolcdn.com/dims-global/dims3/GLOB/legacy_thumbnail/750x422/quality/95/https://s.blogcdn.com/slideshows/images/slides/407/274/5/S4072745/slug/l/2017-honda-civic-hatchback-02-1.jpg Because if the doors fall off your Honda you keep on driving to the next service center. If a wing falls off your Aerobatic biplane someone scoops you into a body bag and puts you into a freezer until the investigation is over. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:05:33 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
School me. You are apparently a machinist. I never claimed to be. I am a consumer. Are there no CNC parts in modern motors? Are there no CNC parts in my guns? Why is it that all these things are reasonably priced but you keep telling me suppressors are so much more expensive to make? I totally agree with other who say it's politics and "because they can" (for now), etc. But you keep arguing that there is not a large profit margin, that it costs several hundred dollars to machine an acceptable suppressor. So far you've listed what it would cost to buy premium Titanium parts individually at retail cost. You also said that it costs $4 million dollars for some CNC machines, which I do not doubt, although I would think that a far less expensive machine could be used to make a suppressor, and I'm asking why every other industry can make a profit from parts made using these same machines without gouging the user. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
LOL WHAT?! Holy shit, dude. The more you post, the more you prove how little you know. You should have just stopped with the original post and wrote it off as basic ignorance instead of doubling down on stupid. School me. You are apparently a machinist. I never claimed to be. I am a consumer. Are there no CNC parts in modern motors? Are there no CNC parts in my guns? Why is it that all these things are reasonably priced but you keep telling me suppressors are so much more expensive to make? I totally agree with other who say it's politics and "because they can" (for now), etc. But you keep arguing that there is not a large profit margin, that it costs several hundred dollars to machine an acceptable suppressor. So far you've listed what it would cost to buy premium Titanium parts individually at retail cost. You also said that it costs $4 million dollars for some CNC machines, which I do not doubt, although I would think that a far less expensive machine could be used to make a suppressor, and I'm asking why every other industry can make a profit from parts made using these same machines without gouging the user. I didn't say any of that shit. You think suppressor manufacturers are "gouging" consumers because you can throw together a Form 1 can for $100... which is akin to saying Glock is gouging consumers because a High Point does the same thing for cheaper. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:07:20 AM EDT
[#5]
A Seiko wrist watch with an automatic movement can be had for around $100. The precision manufacturing involved in making perfect microscopic springs, gears and bearings that all work together to keep accurate time is definitely more complex and precise than a suppressor. Sure the materials cost and foreign labor is much less, and the economies of scale are more, but it is just another example of how a much more intricate and precise set of machining operations can cost a fraction of what something so comparatively crude as a suppressor costs. You can even get a Swiss movement Invicta for around $300-$400 with the increased costs of manufacturing and labor in Switzerland. And that is still cheaper than most modern suppressors.
Modern suppressor manufacturers have solved the age old alchemist's puzzle, transmuting more common metals into an equal weight of gold (well not quite, but almost). 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:08:15 AM EDT
[#6]
Lol, in this thread everyone ignores the fact that a suppressor can be purchased in NZ over the counter for $25 because facts are hard.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:09:46 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol, in this thread everyone ignores the fact that a suppressor can be purchased in NZ over the counter for $25 because facts are hard. How quiet will it be? How durable will it be? What will the warranty be like? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:12:52 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol, in this thread everyone ignores the fact that a suppressor can be purchased in NZ over the counter for $25 because facts are hard. But, they have to cost $875 here in the US because Inconel! |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:13:09 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol, in this thread everyone ignores the fact that a suppressor can be purchased in NZ over the counter for $25 because facts are hard. You want to explain that to us? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:14:51 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But, they have to cost $875 here in the US because Inconel! No, they could cost $3. Just fill a 2 liter coke bottle with saw dust. The outcome will be exactly the same as with a US made suppressor! |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:16:24 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because if the doors fall off your Honda you keep on driving to the next service center. If a wing falls off your Aerobatic biplane someone scoops you into a body bag and puts you into a freezer until the investigation is over. I'll bet statistically it's more likely the wings fall off my pitts than the doors fall of my honda. Not sure why we're struggling with this, laws have skewed the market to make the highest quality product with the best warranty/service and it will stay that way and possibly get worse with 41f unless the HPA passes. If the HPA passes a broader market would likely mean a new segment of low cost silencers would open up. OP asked if I wanted to invest $15,000,000, I don't for 2 reasons: 1) I don't think there is collusion between companies to gouge consumers 2) I don't have enough money to buy a pitts, so I can't spare $15,000,000 Also, if it takes $15,000,000 to startup, and the market is choked by federal regulation...awe fuck it, I give up. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:17:59 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You want to explain that to us? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Lol, in this thread everyone ignores the fact that a suppressor can be purchased in NZ over the counter for $25 because facts are hard. You want to explain that to us? Go to this link, then firearms accessories, then silencers. Divide by 1.4 to exchange NZD to USD https://www.guncity.com |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:18:02 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How quiet will it be? How durable will it be? What will the warranty be like? For $25, I could buy a lifetime supply for the cost of a high end U.S. made suppressor. And "quiet" can be achieved lots of different ways. For one, you could build it a little fatter and longer to compensate for less sophisticated internals. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:20:52 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For $25, I could buy a lifetime supply for the cost of a high end U.S. made suppressor. And "quiet" can be achieved lots of different ways. For one, you could build it a little fatter and longer to compensate for less sophisticated internals. Or you could spend the money for a smaller, lighter, more effective, more durable, with a great QD mount, with exacting return to zero, for more money. And not use garbage. Sorry you're poor. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:20:58 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, they could cost $3. Just fill a 2 liter coke bottle with saw dust. The outcome will be exactly the same as with a US made suppressor! Don't be obtuse. The difference between a shitty improvised suppressor and a "real" one is huge, sure. But you would need a sound level meter to accurately measure the difference between a cheap "international" suppressor and a U.S. made suppressor. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:22:14 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How quiet will it be? How durable will it be? What will the warranty be like? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Lol, in this thread everyone ignores the fact that a suppressor can be purchased in NZ over the counter for $25 because facts are hard. How quiet will it be? How durable will it be? What will the warranty be like? Specs are in the link I posted above. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:25:37 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Or you could spend the money for a smaller, lighter, more effective, more durable, with a great QD mount, with exacting return to zero, for more money. And not use garbage. Sorry you're poor. How does spending the same $850 on a pile of 26 disposable suppressors versus one pain in the ass to maintain suppressor equal poor? I'd much rather shoot a brick or two of .22lr and then throw it in the trash over having to break it down and clean all the lead out of it. 
You don't get rich by spending more than you need to. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:26:29 AM EDT
[#18]
RDIAS, baby!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:27:18 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
RDIAS, baby! THOSE should cost $15. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:27:26 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How does spending the same $850 on a pile of 26 disposable suppressors versus one pain in the ass to maintain suppressor equal poor? I'd much rather shoot a brick or two of .22lr and then throw it in the trash over having to break it down and clean all the lead out of it.
You don't get rich by spending more than you need to. Right. And spending money on the one well researched good suppressor is going to be way better than spending money on a shitload of garbage "suppressors". |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:32:06 AM EDT
[#21]
Explain why milspec full auto quick disconnect suppressors like ASE UTRA are less than half the price of American suppressors.....
http://www.aseutra.fi/jet-z-cqb-bl-and-jet-z-cqbs-bl-suppressor Here in South Africa, locally made milspec semi-auto rated suppressors go for about 10% the price of American suppressors, and these weigh LESS, and these are perfectly hearing safe indoors. My "cheapy" has about 10k suppressed rounds through it over the last 3years, the suppressor is always attached. From an outside point of view, American suppressor prices are really f*cking retarded and absurd. And then add a $200 tax stamp as well? LOL. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:34:11 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't be obtuse. The difference between a shitty improvised suppressor and a "real" one is huge, sure. But you would need a sound level meter to accurately measure the difference between a cheap "international" suppressor and a U.S. made suppressor. Cool when are you posting the video of you testing this? Also how long will the cheap suppressor last, how heavy is it, how big is it etc? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:37:20 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Right. And spending money on the one well researched good suppressor is going to be way better than spending money on a shitload of garbage "suppressors". Only if you like spending time cleaning it. It's different for centrfire, but for .22lr I want disposable "garbage" suppressors so I can just throw them in the trash after they get full of lead. And who's to say that a cheaper suppressor isn't "well researched"? If we didn't have the artificial market created by the NFA right now, you could get suppressors for less than half the current cost with equivalent performance, weight, size and durability because the market would be bigger, and you'd see a lot of quality OEM and integral versions that you don't now. It would be nothing for a company like Ruger to tool up and make integrally suppressed MkIV pistols, for example. Hell, they could even build them to take disposable baffle cores. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:38:08 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How does spending the same $850 on a pile of 26 disposable suppressors versus one pain in the ass to maintain suppressor equal poor? I'd much rather shoot a brick or two of .22lr and then throw it in the trash over having to break it down and clean all the lead out of it.
You don't get rich by spending more than you need to. I think you are overlooking the fact that a suppressor cost a minimum of $200. If I have to pay $200 and wait 9-12 months every time I replace something I'm willing to spend more for something that last nearly forever. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:42:03 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think you are overlooking the fact that a suppressor cost a minimum of $200. If I have to pay $200 and wait 9-12 months every time I replace something I'm willing to spend more for something that last nearly forever. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
How does spending the same $850 on a pile of 26 disposable suppressors versus one pain in the ass to maintain suppressor equal poor? I'd much rather shoot a brick or two of .22lr and then throw it in the trash over having to break it down and clean all the lead out of it.
You don't get rich by spending more than you need to. I think you are overlooking the fact that a suppressor cost a minimum of $200. If I have to pay $200 and wait 9-12 months every time I replace something I'm willing to spend more for something that last nearly forever. That's the whole point. Because the govt is involved with shitty regulations it distorts the free market and causes everything to be priced higher than it otherwise would. The whole theory of substitute goods is thrown out the window because you can't substitute a $25 suppressor for an $800 one because of the $200 tax and the wait time. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:42:24 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cool when are you posting the video of you testing this? Also how long will the cheap suppressor last, how heavy is it, how big is it etc? You buying the test equipment? And it would take at least a year or so for the form 1 to come back, so... As for durability, size, weight, all of those factors are part of the cheaper price. Just like every product we buy, we make decisions about cost/value. I'd gladly accept a suppressor 5% louder, 5% bigger and 5% heavier for less than 50% of the price. The exotic materials and miniaturization of US made suppressors are already deep into the diminishing returns territory AFAIC. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:48:44 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think you are overlooking the fact that a suppressor cost a minimum of $200. If I have to pay $200 and wait 9-12 months every time I replace something I'm willing to spend more for something that last nearly forever. Well sure. Same reason I bought a "nice" suppressor. But if there were no regulatory hurdles, I would not have paid that kind of money for something you can get in NZ for $25, or maybe an "equivalent" quality one for $120 or so. If the NFA went away overnight, tomorrow I'd buy a pile of cheap disposable suppressors and my fancy "lifetime" suppressor would never come out of the safe because cleaning it is a pain in the ass. I'd look at suppressors (particularly .22lr) like you would something like a gas tube, gas rings or a buffer spring. A wear item to be replaced. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 3:35:06 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well sure. Same reason I bought a "nice" suppressor. But if there were no regulatory hurdles, I would not have paid that kind of money for something you can get in NZ for $25, or maybe an "equivalent" quality one for $120 or so. If the NFA went away overnight, tomorrow I'd buy a pile of cheap disposable suppressors and my fancy "lifetime" suppressor would never come out of the safe because cleaning it is a pain in the ass. I'd look at suppressors (particularly .22lr) like you would something like a gas tube, gas rings or a buffer spring. A wear item to be replaced. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 4:17:12 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Explain why milspec full auto quick disconnect suppressors like ASE UTRA are less than half the price of American suppressors..... http://www.aseutra.fi/jet-z-cqb-bl-and-jet-z-cqbs-bl-suppressor Here in South Africa, locally made milspec semi-auto rated suppressors go for about 10% the price of American suppressors, and these weigh LESS, and these are perfectly hearing safe indoors. My "cheapy" has about 10k suppressed rounds through it over the last 3years, the suppressor is always attached. From an outside point of view, American suppressor prices are really f*cking retarded and absurd. And then add a $200 tax stamp as well? LOL. So in a completely deregulated market a semi-comparable suppressor still isn't $200? Thanks for proving my point! |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 4:28:23 AM EDT
[#30]
If we can get HPA passed, it won't matter. Problem will solve itself in short order. First person to sell mail order $300 suppressors with equal or greater performance wins the entire market.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 4:42:07 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Obviously not all of them are charging that much, but many charge as much as $1,500 for one unit, and the parts probably cost them $75. If that's so far off then tell us what the real costs are. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
A 2000% Profit Margin? Jesus Christ, SilencerCo is doing it wrong. Obviously not all of them are charging that much, but many charge as much as $1,500 for one unit, and the parts probably cost them $75. If that's so far off then tell us what the real costs are. There are more costs that go into something like that than the direct materials. Rent, salaries, machining equipment (which is really expensive), compliance, accounting, legal, insurance, marketing, etc. Just because the materials cost them $75 doesn't mean that's all they have in it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 4:53:32 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Obviously not all of them are charging that much, but many charge as much as $1,500 for one unit, and the parts probably cost them $75. If that's so far off then tell us what the real costs are. and what about R&D, equipment costs, salaries, overhead, etc..etc... |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 5:29:47 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Explain why milspec full auto quick disconnect suppressors like ASE UTRA are less than half the price of American suppressors..... http://www.aseutra.fi/jet-z-cqb-bl-and-jet-z-cqbs-bl-suppressor Here in South Africa, locally made milspec semi-auto rated suppressors go for about 10% the price of American suppressors, and these weigh LESS, and these are perfectly hearing safe indoors. My "cheapy" has about 10k suppressed rounds through it over the last 3years, the suppressor is always attached. From an outside point of view, American suppressor prices are really f*cking retarded and absurd. And then add a $200 tax stamp as well? LOL. I went to a gun store in Joburg a couple months ago and was astonished at how cheap the cans were. They seemed nicely made as well. BTW, I'm on my way back from another trip to SA right now. Beautiful country. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 5:41:27 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I went to a gun store in Joburg a couple months ago and was astonished at how cheap the cans were. They seemed nicely made as well. BTW, I'm on my way back from another trip to SA right now... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Explain why milspec full auto quick disconnect suppressors like ASE UTRA are less than half the price of American suppressors..... http://www.aseutra.fi/jet-z-cqb-bl-and-jet-z-cqbs-bl-suppressor Here in South Africa, locally made milspec semi-auto rated suppressors go for about 10% the price of American suppressors, and these weigh LESS, and these are perfectly hearing safe indoors. My "cheapy" has about 10k suppressed rounds through it over the last 3years, the suppressor is always attached. From an outside point of view, American suppressor prices are really f*cking retarded and absurd. And then add a $200 tax stamp as well? LOL. I went to a gun store in Joburg a couple months ago and was astonished at how cheap the cans were. They seemed nicely made as well. BTW, I'm on my way back from another trip to SA right now... I'd imagine that U.S. pricing has to do with what a niche market it is (or has been until recently). The cost of a tax stamp, and the hoops one needs to jump through, coupled with wait times for approval drives a lot of folks away. I know more than a few gun people who are turned off by suppressor ownership for those very reasons. Also, lots of folks here probably don't even really "need" a suppressor. In most places you can't hunt with them, majority of gun owners here shoot at public ranges where using a suppressor is pointless (as opposed to buying one because you have land to shoot on and you dont want to bother your neighbors). All those things combined make for a relatively small pool of gun owners who would actually put the effort into buying a suppressor, so that probably means higher prices. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 5:55:38 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The cheap .22 cans in sporting goods stores I have seen, maybe. The more substantial cans for use on AR15s? I paid at least 400 euros. In all fairness, I wouldn't compare "retail" prices on firearms /accessories between Europe and the US. Apples and oranges. Even ignoring the higher cost of living and (generally) corresponding wages, the US market is generally cheaper because of economy of scale. Its cheaper to buy German firearms in the US then it is a German gunshop. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 6:44:16 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not the price it's the paperwork & the wait. My first m4-2000 cost me $950. Now you can get them for $550. This. It's the wait for me. Especially now. A sixth month wait was ridiculous and stupid. Now it's closer to a year. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 6:49:12 AM EDT
[#37]
This reminds me...............I think I have some NFA paperwork submitted...............it has been SO FUCKING LONG I forget.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 7:07:20 AM EDT
[#38]
Still waiting OP:
Please tell me you've at least made a Form 1 silencer for yourself. So you have at least have some frame of reference for what it takes to build a single silencer. Which companies have made a huge profit? How much and when? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 7:15:49 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So in a completely deregulated market a semi-comparable suppressor still isn't $200? Thanks for proving my point! exactly. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 7:27:20 AM EDT
[#40]
I'm guessing that you have never made anything or owned a business. For starters, a 12" long x 1.5" piece of 17-4 round stock from online metals is about $62 plus shipping. Link
This would be about enough material to make a Griffin REECE 5. I'm going to ballpark an estimate of about 3 hours machine time to make all of the components. I know they are using mill/turn machines to make their parts and those generally have a shop rate over $100/hour. Then you have to assemble, weld, and ceracote. Add another $50 or so for that. Then you have to pay a person to register the supressor with the atf and make sure your records are in order. Throw in another $10-$15 for that. I'm not sure if the excise tax has to be paid on suppressors, but they are classified as firearms, so I'm going to assume so. That's $50. Call that $475 total. You can order one from silencer shop for around $650 and that includes the retail mark up from silencer shop, and then doing all of the paperwork for you, as well as the dealer transfer fee. All for that extra $175. I wonder how close I actually am. @GRIFFIN_ARMAMENT |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 7:36:33 AM EDT
[#41]
Eggs actly
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm guessing that you have never made anything or owned a business. For starters, a 12" long x 1.5" piece of 17-4 round stock from online metals is about $62 plus shipping. Link This would be about enough material to make a Griffin REECE 5. I'm going to ballpark an estimate of about 3 hours machine time to make all of the components. I know they are using mill/turn machines to make their parts and those generally have a shop rate over $100/hour. Then you have to assemble, weld, and ceracote. Add another $50 or so for that. Then you have to pay a person to register the supressor with the atf and make sure your records are in order. Throw in another $10-$15 for that. I'm not sure if the excise tax has to be paid on suppressors, but they are classified as firearms, so I'm going to assume so. That's $50. Call that $475 total. You can order one from silencer shop for around $650 and that includes the retail mark up from silencer shop, and then doing all of the paperwork for you, as well as the dealer transfer fee. All for that extra $175. I wonder how close I actually am. @GRIFFIN_ARMAMENT |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 7:41:13 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
....Your cheap ass PSA AR-15 is always going to be a cheap ass PSA AR-15 and your cheap ass Ford Mustang is always going to be a cheap ass Ford Mustang when you compare to Ferrari. They are both sports cars, one costs way more than the other..... The bottom line is you are merely a cheapskate wannabe silencer owner. You want to make silencers cheaper? Start a silencer business, run it and then get back to us about how cheap you can make these pipes with washers welded in them. Go ahead...we're waiting..... Says the guy who doesn't have $24 to blow on a Team membership here...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 8:07:26 AM EDT
[#43]
Ok let me lay out material costs for a suppressor made of material to my to can on a form 4
Titanium round bar stock, $37 per ft 1.75 od Titanium tube , $46 per ft 1.65 od, 1.34 id. Stainless round bar stock, $16 per ft 1.75 of Ok so that's $99 for material, you will have some left but not much. Now let's break down machine time 7 baffles made from ti round stock, 26 minutes each on a CNC machine I helped my neighbor build. This will do about half the speed of a large CNC 5 axis. Part has to be reset to finish cone. 2 baffles made from stainless round bar, 28 minutes each. Same process just cuts slower Blast chamber made from same ti bar stock, 23 minutes. Turn od of TI tube, recenter then turn id of tube. Cut threads on both ends. 1:31 minutes Make two end caps out of TI, one with 5/8x24 inside threads and mill for removal tool. 1:47 minutes So you have $100 in material off the bat, 7hours and 49 minutes of time So the CNC operater makes $27 hr and let's call it 8 hours since eyou have tool setup and all. $216 So now you have $315 into a high quality suppressor that will last a lifetime with proper use and maintance. Add in cost of equipment and tooling, taxes licensees, SS , workers comp, blah blah blah. This is what it's costs at startup per can, one operator could make 2 a day if he was pushed and had experience with a quality cnc. If you had a bank of CNC machines making a single part on each you could make way more but they only cost between 30-60k for a decent 5 axis. This is why suppressors cost so much, shit ain't cheap yo. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 8:17:09 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Explain why milspec full auto quick disconnect suppressors like ASE UTRA are less than half the price of American suppressors..... http://www.aseutra.fi/jet-z-cqb-bl-and-jet-z-cqbs-bl-suppressor Here in South Africa, locally made milspec semi-auto rated suppressors go for about 10% the price of American suppressors, and these weigh LESS, and these are perfectly hearing safe indoors. My "cheapy" has about 10k suppressed rounds through it over the last 3years, the suppressor is always attached. From an outside point of view, American suppressor prices are really f*cking retarded and absurd. And then add a $200 tax stamp as well? LOL. because people hate to admit that they are gullible and fell for fancy marketing and gimmicks. But lets really put this in perspective, I can buy an infinitely more complicated big ol flat screen tv for 1200.00, and like anything else if I want a better one I spend 1700.00 - but 1900's technology is somehow always gonna cost upwards of $500 to get a good quality suppressor. Bullshit Theres only one thing keeping the price of suppressors artificially high - pain in the ass government regulations - which fosters the idea that you have to buy the best because its a lifetime purchase which leads to all the marketing and gimmicks. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 8:21:58 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A thousand dollars is more than most of us will ever spend on a new AR-15. Ah, no. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 8:33:02 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ok let me lay out material costs for a suppressor made of material to my to can on a form 4 Titanium round bar stock, $37 per ft 1.75 od Titanium tube , $46 per ft 1.65 od, 1.34 id. Stainless round bar stock, $16 per ft 1.75 of Ok so that's $99 for material, you will have some left but not much. Now let's break down machine time 7 baffles made from ti round stock, 26 minutes each on a CNC machine I helped my neighbor build. This will do about half the speed of a large CNC 5 axis. Part has to be reset to finish cone. 2 baffles made from stainless round bar, 28 minutes each. Same process just cuts slower Blast chamber made from same ti bar stock, 23 minutes. Turn od of TI tube, recenter then turn id of tube. Cut threads on both ends. 1:31 minutes Make two end caps out of TI, one with 5/8x24 inside threads and mill for removal tool. 1:47 minutes So you have $100 in material off the bat, 7hours and 49 minutes of time So the CNC operater makes $27 hr and let's call it 8 hours since eyou have tool setup and all. $216 So now you have $315 into a high quality suppressor that will last a lifetime with proper use and maintance. Add in cost of equipment and tooling, taxes licensees, SS , workers comp, blah blah blah. This is what it's costs at startup per can, one operator could make 2 a day if he was pushed and had experience with a quality cnc. If you had a bank of CNC machines making a single part on each you could make way more but they only cost between 30-60k for a decent 5 axis. This is why suppressors cost so much, shit ain't cheap yo. Still begs the question, "why are they cheaper everywhere else but here?" Materials and complexity of design have a lot to do with that as well as deregulation, but I don't see too many companies trying to put out economical cans. The modular multi-caliber can that Griffen came out with is one way to get more for your money. With HPA looming people are starting to ask questions, telling them to "stop being poor" will be good motivation for someone to come in and undercut the market with good cans a few hundred below cost. Just like in the AR market, boutique ARs that can't justify why they cost what they do are going to struggle in the future. You need good brand recognition and a solid product to see you through. The rules are simple, you adapt or die ETA: 90% of the suppressor out there to day fall into premium or ultra premium catagories. Look at the appliance world, where if that was the case everyone would have to chose between subzero column units and high end Samsung untis. There are no basic "whirlpool" cans, nothing special they just work. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 8:33:33 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Derp at 2000% and they are dropping prices: https://silencerco.com/rebate-promo/ Came to say this. SilencerCo and others have popped a rebate into play. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 8:36:06 AM EDT
[#48]
WTF, Schmidt and Bender scopes are like $3000??
It's just an aluminum tube, some melted sand, and a couple washers. FFS, my Burris scope is $100. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 8:55:59 AM EDT
[#49]
I too find it strange that suppressors are so expensive. Yes, you have materials and labor in machining the parts....but hell, you can get a complete AR rifle for under $400......but a suppressor is $1000+? What's got more materials and labor in it??
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2017 9:00:03 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why is an AR15 and a glock the same price? Obviously much more goes into the AR comparatively. Seems like the glock should be about $300 by that model. Glock has to make up their margin in the civilian market since they are selling pistols to LEAs essentially at cost. Besides, ARs are like the fishing boats. You can get a basic model, or spend ten times that if you really want to. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
