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Posted: 1/20/2017 10:25:44 AM EDT
I'm looking at setting up a small shop for hobby use. Mostly for knife making, but, I'm sure other small projects will come up. I picked up a 2-brick forge (Atlas Mini Forge) and am looking at the rest of my set-up. I'm currently renting, so everything will need to be portable so I can haul it out into the yard for work.
Where I really need advise is in selecting an anvil. I've been looking locally for a used one, but nothing really shows up for what I need (Western PA.) I have access to a lot of machine shops and industrial forge companies, so I started thinking that I could draw up what I want and have it made. Then I started thinking about what I need an anvil for; while I believe I only need a hardened flat face for knife work, I'm thinking that "other small projects" will entail the use of a horn and/or a hardy. Since having those features put in a new fabrication would probably bring me to about the same cost of a bought anvil, I've gone to "it's a toss-up" on which direction to go. Would you recommend a new anvil, if so, which one? I'd like to keep costs down, but not "cheap-out" on one. What mass for the anvil? I want something solid, but I need to pull it in and out of the garage. Maybe something around 100-150#? Also, what kind of surface should I set the forge on for use? I'm thinking setting it on a wood table on top of a cinder block will be OK. Am I correct? |
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Centaur Forge has new American Made Emerson Anvils here http://www.centaurforge.com/Emerson-Anvils/products/484/
They have a 50lb anvil that seems reasonably priced with free shipping. |
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My father had two size anvils and a 2' section of old rail from the RR. I imagine you can find old rail easier than an anvil.
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Quoted:
Centaur Forge has new American Made Emerson Anvils here http://www.centaurforge.com/Emerson-Anvils/products/484/ They have a 50lb anvil that seems reasonably priced with free shipping. View Quote 50# is a solid weight? Do I need an equally heavy base for that just for the mass? I was going to take a shit-load of scrap 1x12s I have and make an end-on stand, then anchor the anvil with some chain and a turnbuckle. |
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As some one who has made their own knife making anvil (and coal forge), save your money and buy a proper english pattern one. It's all about the mass. Metal moves sooooo much easier when you get 300# plus under it. I started with a 80# block of mild steel and hard faced it. Still fun to use, but nothing near the 360# one I have now. You can find them for $1-$1.50 per pound, the older the better. It's more difficult out west, but in the north east and the south east it's vastly easier. As for your anvil stand, I used 2x4s butcher blocked and metal banded. You're going to want to keep both the forge and anvil in the garage, since being able to see what heat you're at is important. Sunlight makes that difficult and you'll find yourself forging much cooler then you want to be. I've always had my forge and anvil in a corner or between the cars, and simply park them outside when I need to make something. https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2842/9721266334_097ca98f6f_c.jpg View Quote I wish I had an indoor space I could use. The garage only has a 7' ceiling, and I'm 6'4" I was thinking of using a pop-up awning for light control. Where would you look for an old anvil? Web searches show bupkis locally, and I've looked in all the antique shops and scrap yards I know of. How important is rebound for hobby-style work? |
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I found mine on ebay, the seller was 3 blocks away so I could pick it up. Searchtempest.com is a site I used a lot, since it combines Craigslist, Ebay and one other.
Rebound is nice to have, I'm not going to lie. Mass is really key to moving metal, more so than hammer weight; which seems counter intuitive. |
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As other posters have said, the heavier the better.
Minimum of 100#. 150# is better and over #200 is best. I scan Craigslist, cruise local auctions and am a member of quite a few Facebook groups dedicated to blacksmithing and anvils. It may take a while to find a good one at a price you can afford. Try to stay between $1/lb and $2/lb. Go a bit higher if its in good/great condition. Make sure to use a 1" ball bearing to do a bounce test, listen to it ring and make sure you have good edges. I was lucky enough to inherit an anvil (158# Mouse Hole). ETA: Not going to sugarcoat it. Your going to spend some cash for a nice anvil, unless you find a sweetheart deal. |
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I haven't seen used anvil prices like that in 15 years. Around here you can expect to pay 3-4 dollars a pound if you can find a good used anvil. Most are crap and folks think they are worth their weight in gold. I ended up with a sweetheart deal on mine. My high school English teacher sold it to me for a buck a pound. It's only 110lbs but it suits my needs as I also have a 25lb Little Giant power hammer. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/78788/IMG-3037-129990.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/78788/IMG-3034-129989.jpg View Quote That sucks. I saw a 270 lb Peter Wright go for $600 in an auction late last year in my AO. Several 200# anvils on my local craigslist/FB groups for the $300-$400 range. A 150# for $250. Of course there are a few out there, like the dude who is selling a no-name 300# anvil that is way sway backed for $1400. Its been up for 8 months now. I have noticed that anvils tend to go for way higher prices out west. We have a lot of old anvils floating around in barn sales here in the east. Hell, my neighbor bought a 125# for $25 two years ago. Attached File I bet you could talk him down to $350 - $325. |
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If you were looking over these anvils, what looks good?
https://athensohio.craigslist.org/for/5963062405.html |
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Where would you look for an old anvil? Web searches show bupkis locally, and I've looked in all the antique shops and scrap yards I know of. How important is rebound for hobby-style work? View Quote Look for a local blacksmithing group on ABANA. My groups has about 3-5 anvils for sale any any given time. It'll suck if it doesn't work properly as far as rebound is concerned |
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If you were looking over these anvils, what looks good? https://athensohio.craigslist.org/for/5963062405.html View Quote Non without a pritchel hole. A couple of those anvils look like they have been welded from here. Maybe not, but I would investigate those ground surfaces. They might have a plate welded on top. The 160# anvil is swayback. Once you get into the $400 to $500 range for a used anvil, you are in striking (heh, heh) distance of a new anvil. For knives, you don't need a horn or cutting table, just a rectangular forging surface. The trouble with railroad track is the very small flat surface, and grinding it flat removes a lot of weight. How to Make a 100 Pound Scrap Steel Post Anvil and Stand for Blacksmithing and Knife Making |
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I still say forklift tines are common enough wear items that you'll see some at the scrap yard pretty quick. They will take a lot of abuse, usually made from 4130 from what I hear. Cut them up into slabs and orient them vertically like the video above.
I have a pair I'm working on turning into a post vice, but an anvil is super tempting. I may have enough left over when I'm done for one. I paid about $45 for the pair, 160lbs total. |
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For knives, you don't need a horn or cutting table, just a rectangular forging surface. The trouble with railroad track is the very small flat surface, and grinding it flat removes a lot of weight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EY1uvc6igw View Quote |
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The only reason I'm rejecting using fork tines or track, is the desire to have a horn. Why do I need a horn? I have no clue, outside of "You never know. I may need a bend radius on there." I'm in drafting/machine design, and I have three french curves. One of the most rarely used tools in drafting, and just about every old-school draftsman I know has multiples of them.
How scary is this pic? Attached File I'm thinking about the one with the broken heel. I can get this for a bit over $1/# That way, I have something to get started,and a future/better buy doesn't need a horn. No pritchel or hardy holes, but that shouldn't be an issue to start? I can always use a vise for holding tooling. If it doesn't have a lot of bounce to it, can that be repaired? I would think if I just had a new face milled on the top then get it re-hardened, I should be good? How deep does the hardness go? Another question, but I think I'm way off on this one; can I weld on a "cap" to an existing anvil? Let's say I take a 30# block (rough weight for 11"x5"x2" steel block,) and have it penetration welded to a re-faced anvil, then harden that surface. I'm thinking that no matter how good the milled face is, the minuscule gap between the two pieces will ruin the bounce. eta - weight on the one I'm looking at is 110# the other one is 158# |
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The anvil on the left looks like it might have a steel top, and if it does, it's thick. That is the one to buy.
A horn is not needed for lots of blacksmith work. One edge of the anvil should have a tapering radius ground, and other curves are created by upsetting on the anvil face or around a bick or hardy tool. One of the suppliers sells a small square block of hardened steel as a bench block or small anvil that might be a good place to start for not much cash outlay. A big ol' 20 pound maul head can be polished up to use for forging knives, too. For cutting on the anvil face, use a sacrificial piece of steel laid on top. Quoted:
That was a very kewl vid. Just having a solid chunk of steel on end like that would be real handy. Surprised he didn't stop by the local machine shop & have them mill the end flat for him; that would have saved him ALOT of work. View Quote The man that made that video uses his money carefully by using his head and his back, and started out with just about nothing. You'll notice as his income has improved, he buys a few new power tools that will speed the work up. That piece of steel is not as hard as the face of a good anvil, so the work around is simply regrinding the surface to keep it smooth for forging. |
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http://www.marco-borromei.com/fork.html
Just a few ideas. You really only use the same tiny section of a big anvil 95% of the time, so these are more than adequate. Maybe weld up with a mild steel striking anvil with a pritchel and a hardy hole to do the other 5% of work. A horn isn't as useful as you would think, mine mostly gets used for gouging deep bruises into my thigh. Do you have a belt grinder? That's where you're going to get into serious $$ for knife making. |
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I use my horn rarely, and for what I do I could get by without it, but I have it so I use it. My anvil is a #140 Trenton. It's too small but I don't primarily forge and will build power equipment like a roll and hammer down the road.
I would find a hydraulic cylinder shaft in someone's scrap pile and use it as a post anvil to make some things. You'll learn a lot about what you need that way. |
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http://www.marco-borromei.com/fork.html http://www.marco-borromei.com/images/f/fork7.jpg http://bladesmithsforum.com/uploads/post-20084-1156144926.jpg Just a few ideas. You really only use the same tiny section of a big anvil 95% of the time, so these are more than adequate. Maybe weld up with a mild steel striking anvil with a pritchel and a hardy hole to do the other 5% of work. A horn isn't as useful as you would think, mine mostly gets used for gouging deep bruises into my thigh. Do you have a belt grinder? That's where you're going to get into serious $ for knife making. View Quote Well, shit. NOW I see how the fork tine works! I kept forgetting about the mounting side with a bore in it. Belt grinder is last up. I'm thinking of drawing up the parts I need to attach something to a bench grinder I have. I'll keep one side of the grinder as a buffing wheel, then pull the disk on the other side and mount a 4-roll grinder with a vertical and horizontal platen. |
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Anvil repair is not an easy task.
Welding chunks of metal that size, requires preheating. Then there's the issue of what kind of metal you are trying to weld. Mouse Hole was the earliest commercial producer of anvils. They went out of business around 1850, which was about the time Peter Wright started producing anvils. These were traditional anvils and were made of wrought iron with a hardened face forge welded to it. Other producers of anvils came along, and around the late 1800s or early 1900s, cast iron anvils started being made by one or two companies. A steel plate would be placed in an upside down mold of an anvil, and molten iron poured into the mold. There have also been anvils made completely of cast iron, with some hardening of the work face. Loss of rebound may be due to a work face that has come loose (good luck getting it reattached), or loss of heat treat. Heat treatment of relatively small pieces of metal is a bit of a process. Step up to doing it to a piece of metal over 100 pounds, and it gets more difficult, more expensive, and more dangerous. |
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The only reason I'm rejecting using fork tines or track, is the desire to have a horn. Why do I need a horn? I have no clue, outside of "You never know. I may need a bend radius on there." I'm in drafting/machine design, and I have three french curves. One of the most rarely used tools in drafting, and just about every old-school draftsman I know has multiples of them. How scary is this pic? https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/334661/00G0G-kCEJHcUyOHn-1200x900-131164.JPG I'm thinking about the one with the broken heel. I can get this for a bit over $1/# That way, I have something to get started,and a future/better buy doesn't need a horn. No pritchel or hardy holes, but that shouldn't be an issue to start? I can always use a vise for holding tooling. If it doesn't have a lot of bounce to it, can that be repaired? I would think if I just had a new face milled on the top then get it re-hardened, I should be good? How deep does the hardness go? Another question, but I think I'm way off on this one; can I weld on a "cap" to an existing anvil? Let's say I take a 30# block (rough weight for 11"x5"x2" steel block,) and have it penetration welded to a re-faced anvil, then harden that surface. I'm thinking that no matter how good the milled face is, the minuscule gap between the two pieces will ruin the bounce. eta - weight on the one I'm looking at is 110# the other one is 158# View Quote Hardening the face of an anvil is extremely tough to do. You have a giant heat sink sitting right under your surface to be hardened. They used to forge them next to waterfalls to achieve the amount of waterflow required. Throwing them in a lake isn't even good enough. I'd rather have the hardy and pritchel than the horn for sure. A hardy can accommodate a bick anvil and give you a horn, but your horn will never be anything but a horn. |
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If your going to buy a used old anvil take a square, a ruler and a 1 inch steel ball bearing. The square to check to see how used and beat up the anvil is, The ruler and steel ball bearing are most important because you are going to check for what is called rebound.
Put the ruler on its edge on the anvil face so you can see the numbers. Take the ball bearing and drop it from 10 inches onto the top of the anvil, you can check the entire top if you like. It's been awhile but I believe you are looking at a minimum of 6 inch bounce back and 8 inches or more is preferred. An anvil that has been through a fire will have no rebound. It's crazy to drop the ball and the bearing just thudds and barely bounces, that's a dead anvil, don't buy it. Sway back depending on how bad can be fixed with some grinding. I have a 175ish pound peter wright and it had about a 1/16-1/8 of sway back, which I took out and is now really flat. It still rebounds at 8 inches. |
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As far as getting repair work done, that's really not an issue.
In my line of work, weld repairs are pretty common. And I'm talking DAYS of weld repair. We have forged housings that get cracked in stress points all the time. When new components are 6-month lead time items for new forgings, weld repair sounds pretty good. Consequently, there are a lot of guys in the industry that know a lot about how to do weld repairs. We also get a lot of machine ways built and hardened, so all the shops I work with can do some pretty good hardening work. However, all the work I do involves hydraulic stressing of the metal, and hardness is for sliding components; since I know nothing about striking surfaces, I worry about making assumptions on what should be considered "repairable." |
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Damn you, OP! Now you got me surfing Craigslist for anvils! And I have no place to put one!
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Damn you, OP! Now you got me surfing Craigslist for anvils! And I have no place to put one! View Quote |
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Damn you, OP! Now you got me surfing Craigslist for anvils! And I have no place to put one! View Quote What part of PA? I don't need competition on anvils! Even though I've had the idea running in my head for years, this thread is what finally made me pull the trigger and do this. |
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Well if making knifes is your primary desire I think you're going about it backwards. Forging a knife to shape is maybe 10% of the process and can be done faster by cutting and grinding. Forging knives allows you to do some more advanced things that stock removers can't, such as integrals or layered steel, but that's not something you're likely to do if the bat or with a 2 brick forge.
For the money space and time you're going to have tied up in the forge, anvil, tongs, fuel, etc, you'd be further along building or buying a 2x72 and a pile of belts. If you just want to beat metal that's different. |
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You should look up and maybe see if you could visit Hoffman Forge. He is in an old mill site/industrial park in Ambridge near old Economy Village
I had him make me an old woodworking tool last year. He may be able to give you some leads on anvils and other old forge equipment. Also search auctionzip for these things, or take a trip to the dirt mall in Rodgers, OH. Might be some old tools for sale there, like anvils. |
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Well if making knifes is your primary desire I think you're going about it backwards. Forging a knife to shape is maybe 10% of the process and can be done faster by cutting and grinding. Forging knives allows you to do some more advanced things that stock removers can't, such as integrals or layered steel, but that's not something you're likely to do if the bat or with a 2 brick forge. For the money space and time you're going to have tied up in the forge, anvil, tongs, fuel, etc, you'd be further along building or buying a 2x72 and a pile of belts. If you just want to beat metal that's different. View Quote Pretty much this. |
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Well, shit. NOW I see how the fork tine works! I kept forgetting about the mounting side with a bore in it. Belt grinder is last up. I'm thinking of drawing up the parts I need to attach something to a bench grinder I have. I'll keep one side of the grinder as a buffing wheel, then pull the disk on the other side and mount a 4-roll grinder with a vertical and horizontal platen. View Quote I built a little 2x36 for one of my cheap Dewalt bench grinders. Have about $5 spent and the rest was scrap laying around the shop. I have a 3hp 3phase motor that will one day turn into a beasty belt grinder...... Some day. If you're into Facebook, join this group.. Home Built Belt Grinders You can build one pretty cheap if you have a little fabricating ability. |
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What part of PA? I don't need competition on anvils! Even though I've had the idea running in my head for years, this thread is what finally made me pull the trigger and do this. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Damn you, OP! Now you got me surfing Craigslist for anvils! And I have no place to put one! What part of PA? I don't need competition on anvils! Even though I've had the idea running in my head for years, this thread is what finally made me pull the trigger and do this. |
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Buy mine and you can have all the dead horse rasps in my pile.
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Good anvils run about $4/lb these days. I searched for 2 years before I found a good deal on a hundred pounder. Obviously, bigger is better unless you have to move it around. But a hundred pounders will do most anything you need to do.
As for knife making, a 2x72 belt grinder would be a lot more beneficial than an anvil. They aren't all that hard to make. I made mine for about $300 I think. Search youtube for design ideas. When you outgrow that forge, making one is fairly easy. I built a nice 2 burner with an idler valve out of a propane tanks and some plumbing parts. Grinder Attached File Forge Attached File |
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About 18 months ago I bought a 171 pound anvil for $250. I had been looking for about 2 years and passed up smaller, larger, cheaper, costlier, beat-to-death, like-new and everything else. The one I ended up with was worn but not too bad with edges that were fairly nice and a top surface that was reasonably flat. It has good bounce and no cracks or missing chunks. The guy selling it originally wanted $350 but after he turned down $250 I started to walk and he changed his mind.
The versatility of grinders has been mentioned and I certainly agree. Also of high importance is at least one good heavy duty vise. A post vise is wonderful but a regular heavy vise of good quality will work too. When I originally started out I bought a cheap vise and I've regretted it since. |
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All this talk about handmade knives and not a single knife picture! Let's see some custom handmade knives guys!
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http://i.imgur.com/Qz2L9t4.jpg http://i.imgur.com/h5mHJvp.jpg http://i.imgur.com/Zl7GPLP.jpg Finished these today View Quote Sweet! What kind of grinder do you use? What steels and handle materials? Do you heat treat them yourself? They look great!!!! |
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I'd look for a used anvil. I picked up 3 Peter Wrights and a Fisher locally for about $1-2 a pound each. After selling one "rare" one, the other three were almost free. My keepers are a 90# Fisher 1885 for a mobile anvil and a150+# for home/farm use. I have a spare 130+# PW that will go to my brother to get some lathe time incase the HPA passes. If you're in PA you should be able to find a nice used old English anvil for a good price. Stay away from cast unless it's a Fisher. Mouse hole, Peter Wright, Trenton, Hay-Budden are your best bets. Stop at old farms in the country and ask, it's amazing what you will find. I have a few post vises and post drills that I got dirt cheap. In a farm town you should expect to get a 100-150 pound anvil for $200-300 or less, always check farm auctions if you can. A new anvil of that size will be about 2-3x that price. If you are not near a farm town it may be tough but they come up. Check CL if your willing to travel to the country you'll get a good deal. Even if you see a high priced one local it's worth it to throw a low offer. I see anvils locally that have been listed for 6 or more months. I'd bet they'd take a fair offer.
Myself, I'm still looking for a large anvil (200+pounds) and a swage block which are hard to find around here. If one pops up I'll grab it but fortunately it's not something I have to have right now. |
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@skagsig40 - I built my grinders. Steels are 1095, W2, 1084 handles are G10, dyed leopard wood, buffalo horn respectively. I do my own HT so far, but will probably send some out soon because they are more advanced steels.
@damascusknifemaker - that CW knife is sexy! |
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Great looking knives in this thread! That's some skill.
As an aside, I work exclusively with coal fires. Anyone know a good source of bituminous coal in the SW Central or SE Ohio areas? Northern KY or SW Indiana are doable as well. I had a plastic 55 gal. drum full given to me a while back and I am dangerously low. |
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