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Posted: 10/27/2016 8:46:32 PM EDT
[#1]
Do what I do, read the Bible from the comfort of your own home, drama free.
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Posted: 10/27/2016 8:47:08 PM EDT
[#2]
9
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can assure you, NOTHING of that sort was going on at the church I just departed. In fact, other than citing doctrinal differences, I have nothing but good things to say about this particular church. On the phone so quoting is goofed up. I only asked because last I heard this guy had headed to texas... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Does the new guy have an obsession with people being knit together? http://www.leadertelegram.com/News/Region/2015/04/19/In-God-s-name.html In fact, other than citing doctrinal differences, I have nothing but good things to say about this particular church. On the phone so quoting is goofed up. I only asked because last I heard this guy had headed to texas... |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 8:55:20 PM EDT
[#3]
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I'll wait for Old Painless to make a ruling on this. Until then, I am just assuming snake handlers. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What church? Only counts if it's a real religion. I'll wait for Old Painless to make a ruling on this. Until then, I am just assuming snake handlers. A quick review of their doctrines gives me no concern. I may not agree on every small point, but their general beliefs are solid. |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 8:56:16 PM EDT
[#4]
For everyone using this thread to express your hatred for God/religion--don't. Please read the Conduct Code, as it's the very first rule. We have no patience for religion bashing.
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Posted: 10/27/2016 8:57:28 PM EDT
[#5]
Resigned? I didn't know there was such a thing. I just stopped going, I did't know I had to resign, I hope I'm not in trouble for doing it wrong.
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Posted: 10/27/2016 8:58:27 PM EDT
[#6]
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I'll wait for Old Painless to make a ruling on this. Until then, I am just assuming snake handlers. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What church? Only counts if it's a real religion. I'll wait for Old Painless to make a ruling on this. Until then, I am just assuming snake handlers. They founded Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, a pretty top notch, scholarly institution in the evangelical world. |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 9:00:35 PM EDT
[#7]
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Resigned? I didn't know there was such a thing. I just stopped going, I did't know I had to resign, I hope I'm not in trouble for doing it wrong. Were you a deacon? |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 9:01:43 PM EDT
[#8]
Next time, Methodists.
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Posted: 10/27/2016 9:59:39 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Clavu, on general principle I agree with leaving over deeply held disagreements over core doctrine, when you are in the minority. When you say he was preaching on Romans 8, was this the passage: Romans 8:28-30 KJV [28] And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. [29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 10:01:13 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Were you a deacon? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Resigned? I didn't know there was such a thing. I just stopped going, I did't know I had to resign, I hope I'm not in trouble for doing it wrong. Were you a deacon? |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 10:02:16 PM EDT
[#11]
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A quick review of their doctrines gives me no concern. I may not agree on every small point, but their general beliefs are solid. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What church? Only counts if it's a real religion. I'll wait for Old Painless to make a ruling on this. Until then, I am just assuming snake handlers. A quick review of their doctrines gives me no concern. I may not agree on every small point, but their general beliefs are solid. Agreed. It is solid when it comes to scripture and beliefs. The problem I had with the individual church I went to was politics screwing with things, money and greed getting involved, and the wrong people taking power. |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 10:03:49 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We've got friends who used to attend EFree. Both couples have nothing but good things to say, though they are members of SBC churches now. I am sorry to hear about your situation -- sounds like a genuine mess. Do you mind me asking what kind of doctrine is being held to / preached? If the church is as big a disaster as it sounds - especially if heresy is being preached - have you considered contacting EFCA HQ and talking to them? Unless the whole denomination has gone off the rails, I'm sure that they would want to deal with this situation before the local church completely implodes. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: What church? Only counts if it's a real religion. The issue is my issue, and I simply removed myself from the situation. |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 10:05:10 PM EDT
[#13]
I have attended an Evangelical Free Church fir the last 1.5 years after not going to any church for 30 years. I am not involved enough to be in any drama. I do though really like the bible-based preaching. Sorry for your experiences OP.
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Posted: 10/27/2016 10:08:16 PM EDT
[#14]
Another confirmation that people go to church primarily to socialize and not to praise the Jesus.
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Posted: 10/27/2016 10:08:24 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
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What church? Only counts if it's a real religion. Is EFCA hold a free grace doctrine? |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 10:08:50 PM EDT
[#16]
Sounds a lot like Calvary Chapel. Preaching straight from the Bible.
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Posted: 10/27/2016 10:12:04 PM EDT
[#17]
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Another confirmation that people go to church primarily to socialize and not to praise the Jesus. Ummm no... its nice to visit with like minded people but the worship and message is primarily why |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 10:17:48 PM EDT
[#18]
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Ummm no... its nice to visit with like minded people but the worship and message is primarily why Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Another confirmation that people go to church primarily to socialize and not to praise the Jesus. Ummm no... its nice to visit with like minded people but the worship and message is primarily why Please. 3 of his 4 reasons are because his friends left and he doesn't like the new folks. Sure sounds like a social club to me. And that's all I have to say about that. I don't want to get my peepee slapped by a mod white knighting his special interests. |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 10:21:06 PM EDT
[#19]
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4 reasons. My friend and mentor who was the assistant pastor there left. It left a pretty big hole for my wife and I there as he counseled us through a rocky part of our marriage. Another couple that we were tight with left the church about a year ago. A couple that is an absolute train wreck drugs, addiction, co-dependency have been allowed to absolutely destroy our home based small group bible study. The pastor allowed a person to preach that holds to doctrine that I am not willing to sit under, and has given indication that this person will be hired on staff soon. The combined weight of those items have turned church from a place that my wife and I took joy in going to and serving and turned it into a place that evokes anger, resentment, and suspicion. I have no desire to change the church, fight with the elders and I am simply gracefully bowing out and wishing them the best as I seek another congregation. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Why ? My friend and mentor who was the assistant pastor there left. It left a pretty big hole for my wife and I there as he counseled us through a rocky part of our marriage. Another couple that we were tight with left the church about a year ago. A couple that is an absolute train wreck drugs, addiction, co-dependency have been allowed to absolutely destroy our home based small group bible study. The pastor allowed a person to preach that holds to doctrine that I am not willing to sit under, and has given indication that this person will be hired on staff soon. The combined weight of those items have turned church from a place that my wife and I took joy in going to and serving and turned it into a place that evokes anger, resentment, and suspicion. I have no desire to change the church, fight with the elders and I am simply gracefully bowing out and wishing them the best as I seek another congregation. Churches often make heroes out of people like that. |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 10:26:43 PM EDT
[#20]
My question:
Was it RELIEVING? When I finally quit from my local Civil Air Patrol squadron... I smiled. Should never have gone back right after getting home from deployment, already burnt out. Ended up with the foot half in the door for a year or two. Point is, it felt soooooo good getting out once it happened. Had another experience two other times where I was able to jump ship after years of crap. happiest moments of my life. |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 10:29:21 PM EDT
[#21]
Good for you. However, I hope you left on good terms as, in my experience, how one leaves a church is often how one enters another.
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Posted: 10/27/2016 10:39:16 PM EDT
[#22]
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The latter. I was a deacon. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Resigned as in you were the preacher/pastor or resigned as in you are not going there anymore? In the LDS church deacons are 12/13 yr olds. Now that you have resigned it's time to have the young clean cut Elders over. |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 11:21:39 PM EDT
[#23]
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Is EFCA hold a free grace doctrine? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What church? Only counts if it's a real religion. Is EFCA hold a free grace doctrine? I believe they do. Under Christian Living. Doctrine |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 11:24:33 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sounds a lot like Calvary Chapel. Preaching straight from the Bible. That's a very solidly grounded church. The one I went to was too big, though. |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 11:32:10 PM EDT
[#25]
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Lol you should try being un-churched, it makes life much more enjoyable Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No question. Just my sympathies. Hopefully you can find the Gospel and the Spirit somewhere. In the mean time, stick to scripture and prayer with that lovely wife. "Wherever two or more are gathered..." A small group of us are going to meet to study scripture, dine together and pray until that time we can find a suitable congregation. I will not be un-churched. Lol you should try being un-churched, it makes life much more enjoyable Based on your behavior here...Your life doesn't seem that enjoyable. |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 12:17:39 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lol you should try being un-churched, it makes life much more enjoyable Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: No question. Just my sympathies. Hopefully you can find the Gospel and the Spirit somewhere. In the mean time, stick to scripture and prayer with that lovely wife. "Wherever two or more are gathered..." A small group of us are going to meet to study scripture, dine together and pray until that time we can find a suitable congregation. I will not be un-churched. Lol you should try being un-churched, it makes life much more enjoyable Why would being cut out of a wonderful experience be more enjoyable...or do you just not want to think about poor lifestyle choices as being poor. |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 8:20:51 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A quick review of their doctrines gives me no concern. I may not agree on every small point, but their general beliefs are solid. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What church? Only counts if it's a real religion. I'll wait for Old Painless to make a ruling on this. Until then, I am just assuming snake handlers. A quick review of their doctrines gives me no concern. I may not agree on every small point, but their general beliefs are solid. Key stuff here. I contend that the ordo salutis is a non-essential. Why? Because it is an in-house debate, and one which may be argued by people of good faith. I am settled (I think...  ) in my convictions on soteriology, but have sat under men of both the Arminian and Reformed traditions. I may disagree on part of their theology, but it's not a baby-with-the-bathwater proposition.In the essentials, Unity, in the non-essentials, Liberty, and in all things, Charity. |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 8:53:44 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Please. 3 of his 4 reasons are because his friends left and he doesn't like the new folks. Sure sounds like a social club to me. And that's all I have to say about that. I don't want to get my peepee slapped by a mod white knighting his special interests. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Another confirmation that people go to church primarily to socialize and not to praise the Jesus. Ummm no... its nice to visit with like minded people but the worship and message is primarily why Please. 3 of his 4 reasons are because his friends left and he doesn't like the new folks. Sure sounds like a social club to me. And that's all I have to say about that. I don't want to get my peepee slapped by a mod white knighting his special interests. The first person that left is far more than just a 'friend'. He was a mentor, counselor, someone that saved my wife and mine's marriage. His departure was a large emotional blow. The other person that left, yes was a friend. The 3rd couple, are not friends, they are far from it. Those three items, could have all been worked out and I would have willingly done so. The 4th item, my disagreement with doctrine, was what brought about the lack of reconciliation. The Pastor never denied what I asked…but instead told me I was being ridiculous, and that our church would never go that direction…despite the fact that he has several people that hold to that doctrine in key leadership positions in the church. We reached a point where we were not going to see things eye to eye, and instead of making an ass of myself and dragging down the church, I chose to leave. |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 8:55:18 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My question: Was it RELIEVING? When I finally quit from my local Civil Air Patrol squadron... I smiled. Should never have gone back right after getting home from deployment, already burnt out. Ended up with the foot half in the door for a year or two. Point is, it felt soooooo good getting out once it happened. Had another experience two other times where I was able to jump ship after years of crap. happiest moments of my life. When you have to tell a man you respect that you think His judgement is flawed, and that he is incorrect, it is never pleasant. There are people we are leaving behind that we care about…some folks will not be 'left behind'…but there are always those you just lose touch with. I am confident that this will bring about growth for all parties. |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 9:02:12 AM EDT
[#30]
Good luck.
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Posted: 10/28/2016 9:20:27 AM EDT
[#31]
I'm agnostic now, but grew up in the Southern Baptist church. I went to read up on the tenants of Calvinism because of this thread, and I'd say most people I know would also have issues with them. One question I haven't seen asked is what happened to the assistant pastor that left? I can think of a handful of times in my hometown where churches splintered for various reasons and a preacher left along with some percentage of the congregation to form a new church. If he's preaching at some other relatively local church that would seem to be a logical starting place in your search for a new church. If he left to become the head pastor at a church three states away it's obviously different.
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Posted: 10/28/2016 9:24:14 AM EDT
[#32]
Neo-Calvinism is a virus in the church today.
Your story is one happening all over. It invades a church almost every time like you are describing. A clueless leadership hires a young, fresh out of Bible school pastor. Some of the more educated members of the congregation protest his Calvinist tendencies, which falls on clueless, deaf ears. The members who perceive the risk become alienated, usually leaving. Younger pastor pushes for other like minded staff and deacons, soon older leadership is pushed out, retires, etc. Clueless remaining congregation promotes the young pastor to head pastor and the shift is complete.This often decimates a church, splits are very common. Look into Acts 29 network. They are leading the charge on this whole mess. This isn't an isolated thing. Whether you are a Calvinist or not, this is not the way to spread your beliefs. Good luck and know you aren't alone at all. |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 9:57:18 AM EDT
[#33]
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I'm agnostic now, but grew up in the Southern Baptist church. I went to read up on the tenants of Calvinism because of this thread, and I'd say most people I know would also have issues with them. The SBC holds no position on the issue. "What is the SBC's official view of the doctrine commonly known as "Calvinism?" The Southern Baptist Convention has not taken an official stance on either Calvinism or Arminianism. If you surveyed Southern Baptists across the nation you would likely find adherents at both ends of the spectrum with plenty at each point in between." |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 10:47:29 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's a very solidly grounded church. The one I went to was too big, though. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Sounds a lot like Calvary Chapel. Preaching straight from the Bible. That's a very solidly grounded church. The one I went to was too big, though. know what you mean. A church that grows is good but when it starts going to Joel Osteen levels it loses something. The Calvary Chapel in Post Falls, Idaho had two services but isn't huge. Bob Davis is a good preacher. Ex rock and roll player, ex cop and down to earth. I can watch live streaming when Googling North Country chapel. The music is sup par but the preaching is what I go for anyway. ymmv |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 10:54:21 AM EDT
[#35]
Most people don't understand that the Southern Baptist Convention has little to nothing to do with the function of SBC churches, the individual churches are autonomous, you'll see a wide range of doctrinal positions as well as more or less emphasis on the historical cooperation with funding etc. Most people of other denominations or non-churched people assume it is some monolithic controlling organization like the Roman Catholic church etc.
OP I appreciate your dilemma but reading all of your comments it sure looks like your decision is based more on a few of your close buddies leaving for whatever reason, having someone disrupt "your" home Bible study, and maybe an underlying problem with authority. It seems to me that you have convinced yourself that you are justified in walking away because of a doctrinal issue when that is more likely a straw man argument to assuage your decision based on other things. I chuckled when you mentioned making sure you told the Pastor whom you like and respect why you were leaving and it was basically because he is "allowing" things that you don't like/agree with i.e. you are right and he is wrong. Having been in a situation like that the desire to "take my ball and go home" and "I'll show you" is strong, especially when you are convinced you are right, I know I've been there. I'd suggest you swallow your pride, go back to your church and maybe step back from leadership positions etc. and let some time pass before making a final decision. I'll leave you with this quote from Spurgeon’s sermon Sovereign Grace and Man’s Responsibility, based on Romans 10:20-21 and delivered Aug. 1, 1858. I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring. |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 11:13:02 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Most people don't understand that the Southern Baptist Convention has little to nothing to do with the function of SBC churches, the individual churches are autonomous, you'll see a wide range of doctrinal positions as well as more or less emphasis on the historical cooperation with funding etc. Most people of other denominations or non-churched people assume it is some monolithic controlling organization like the Roman Catholic church etc. OP I appreciate your dilemma but reading all of your comments it sure looks like your decision is based more on a few of your close buddies leaving for whatever reason, having someone disrupt "your" home Bible study, and maybe an underlying problem with authority. It seems to me that you have convinced yourself that you are justified in walking away because of a doctrinal issue when that is more likely a straw man argument to assuage your decision based on other things. I chuckled when you mentioned making sure you told the Pastor whom you like and respect why you were leaving and it was basically because he is "allowing" things that you don't like/agree with i.e. you are right and he is wrong. Having been in a situation like that the desire to "take my ball and go home" and "I'll show you" is strong, especially when you are convinced you are right, I know I've been there. I'd suggest you swallow your pride, go back to your church and maybe step back from leadership positions etc. and let some time pass before making a final decision. I'll leave you with this quote from Spurgeon’s sermon Sovereign Grace and Man’s Responsibility, based on Romans 10:20-21 and delivered Aug. 1, 1858. I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring. Do you believe square circles too? When someone tells me that God is contradictory and that I must believe because it is a "mystery" I get defensive. This is the kind of silly, nonsense that makes people doubt all of Christianity. I would suggest that you read some of the more thoughtful critics of Calvinism, there are many. I spent a great deal of time looking at both sides and found it to be a fraud. |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 11:22:02 AM EDT
[#37]
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A couple of points of clarification. The first person that left is far more than just a 'friend'. He was a mentor, counselor, someone that saved my wife and mine's marriage. His departure was a large emotional blow. The other person that left, yes was a friend. The 3rd couple, are not friends, they are far from it. Those three items, could have all been worked out and I would have willingly done so. The 4th item, my disagreement with doctrine, was what brought about the lack of reconciliation. The Pastor never denied what I asked…but instead told me I was being ridiculous, and that our church would never go that direction…despite the fact that he has several people that hold to that doctrine in key leadership positions in the church. We reached a point where we were not going to see things eye to eye, and instead of making an ass of myself and dragging down the church, I chose to leave. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Another confirmation that people go to church primarily to socialize and not to praise the Jesus. Ummm no... its nice to visit with like minded people but the worship and message is primarily why Please. 3 of his 4 reasons are because his friends left and he doesn't like the new folks. Sure sounds like a social club to me. And that's all I have to say about that. I don't want to get my peepee slapped by a mod white knighting his special interests. The first person that left is far more than just a 'friend'. He was a mentor, counselor, someone that saved my wife and mine's marriage. His departure was a large emotional blow. The other person that left, yes was a friend. The 3rd couple, are not friends, they are far from it. Those three items, could have all been worked out and I would have willingly done so. The 4th item, my disagreement with doctrine, was what brought about the lack of reconciliation. The Pastor never denied what I asked…but instead told me I was being ridiculous, and that our church would never go that direction…despite the fact that he has several people that hold to that doctrine in key leadership positions in the church. We reached a point where we were not going to see things eye to eye, and instead of making an ass of myself and dragging down the church, I chose to leave. Seems you disagreed on doctrine, or what is perceived as doctrine. You claimed it was an item of doctrine and he claimed "the church would never go that direction (sure sounds like he is denying it is doctrine). |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 11:36:08 AM EDT
[#38]
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Do you believe square circles too? When someone tells me that God is contradictory and that I must believe because it is a "mystery" I get defensive. This is the kind of silly, nonsense that makes people doubt all of Christianity. I would suggest that you read some of the more thoughtful critics of Calvinism, there are many. I spent a great deal of time looking at both sides and found it to be a fraud. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Most people don't understand that the Southern Baptist Convention has little to nothing to do with the function of SBC churches, the individual churches are autonomous, you'll see a wide range of doctrinal positions as well as more or less emphasis on the historical cooperation with funding etc. Most people of other denominations or non-churched people assume it is some monolithic controlling organization like the Roman Catholic church etc. OP I appreciate your dilemma but reading all of your comments it sure looks like your decision is based more on a few of your close buddies leaving for whatever reason, having someone disrupt "your" home Bible study, and maybe an underlying problem with authority. It seems to me that you have convinced yourself that you are justified in walking away because of a doctrinal issue when that is more likely a straw man argument to assuage your decision based on other things. I chuckled when you mentioned making sure you told the Pastor whom you like and respect why you were leaving and it was basically because he is "allowing" things that you don't like/agree with i.e. you are right and he is wrong. Having been in a situation like that the desire to "take my ball and go home" and "I'll show you" is strong, especially when you are convinced you are right, I know I've been there. I'd suggest you swallow your pride, go back to your church and maybe step back from leadership positions etc. and let some time pass before making a final decision. I'll leave you with this quote from Spurgeon’s sermon Sovereign Grace and Man’s Responsibility, based on Romans 10:20-21 and delivered Aug. 1, 1858. I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring. Do you believe square circles too? When someone tells me that God is contradictory and that I must believe because it is a "mystery" I get defensive. This is the kind of silly, nonsense that makes people doubt all of Christianity. I would suggest that you read some of the more thoughtful critics of Calvinism, there are many. I spent a great deal of time looking at both sides and found it to be a fraud. LOL. This is where you draw the line? Don't you think there is quite a bit of "mystery" in a virgin birth to the Son of God that raised the dead, turned water into wine, was killed and came back from the dead? |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 11:45:43 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LOL. This is where you draw the line? Don't you think there is quite a bit of "mystery" in a virgin birth to the Son of God that raised the dead, turned water into wine, was killed and came back from the dead? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Most people don't understand that the Southern Baptist Convention has little to nothing to do with the function of SBC churches, the individual churches are autonomous, you'll see a wide range of doctrinal positions as well as more or less emphasis on the historical cooperation with funding etc. Most people of other denominations or non-churched people assume it is some monolithic controlling organization like the Roman Catholic church etc. OP I appreciate your dilemma but reading all of your comments it sure looks like your decision is based more on a few of your close buddies leaving for whatever reason, having someone disrupt "your" home Bible study, and maybe an underlying problem with authority. It seems to me that you have convinced yourself that you are justified in walking away because of a doctrinal issue when that is more likely a straw man argument to assuage your decision based on other things. I chuckled when you mentioned making sure you told the Pastor whom you like and respect why you were leaving and it was basically because he is "allowing" things that you don't like/agree with i.e. you are right and he is wrong. Having been in a situation like that the desire to "take my ball and go home" and "I'll show you" is strong, especially when you are convinced you are right, I know I've been there. I'd suggest you swallow your pride, go back to your church and maybe step back from leadership positions etc. and let some time pass before making a final decision. I'll leave you with this quote from Spurgeon’s sermon Sovereign Grace and Man’s Responsibility, based on Romans 10:20-21 and delivered Aug. 1, 1858. I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring. Do you believe square circles too? When someone tells me that God is contradictory and that I must believe because it is a "mystery" I get defensive. This is the kind of silly, nonsense that makes people doubt all of Christianity. I would suggest that you read some of the more thoughtful critics of Calvinism, there are many. I spent a great deal of time looking at both sides and found it to be a fraud. LOL. This is where you draw the line? Don't you think there is quite a bit of "mystery" in a virgin birth to the Son of God that raised the dead, turned water into wine, was killed and came back from the dead? You are conflating miracles with mysteries. |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 11:56:03 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are conflating miracles with mysteries. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Most people don't understand that the Southern Baptist Convention has little to nothing to do with the function of SBC churches, the individual churches are autonomous, you'll see a wide range of doctrinal positions as well as more or less emphasis on the historical cooperation with funding etc. Most people of other denominations or non-churched people assume it is some monolithic controlling organization like the Roman Catholic church etc. OP I appreciate your dilemma but reading all of your comments it sure looks like your decision is based more on a few of your close buddies leaving for whatever reason, having someone disrupt "your" home Bible study, and maybe an underlying problem with authority. It seems to me that you have convinced yourself that you are justified in walking away because of a doctrinal issue when that is more likely a straw man argument to assuage your decision based on other things. I chuckled when you mentioned making sure you told the Pastor whom you like and respect why you were leaving and it was basically because he is "allowing" things that you don't like/agree with i.e. you are right and he is wrong. Having been in a situation like that the desire to "take my ball and go home" and "I'll show you" is strong, especially when you are convinced you are right, I know I've been there. I'd suggest you swallow your pride, go back to your church and maybe step back from leadership positions etc. and let some time pass before making a final decision. I'll leave you with this quote from Spurgeon’s sermon Sovereign Grace and Man’s Responsibility, based on Romans 10:20-21 and delivered Aug. 1, 1858. I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring. Do you believe square circles too? When someone tells me that God is contradictory and that I must believe because it is a "mystery" I get defensive. This is the kind of silly, nonsense that makes people doubt all of Christianity. I would suggest that you read some of the more thoughtful critics of Calvinism, there are many. I spent a great deal of time looking at both sides and found it to be a fraud. LOL. This is where you draw the line? Don't you think there is quite a bit of "mystery" in a virgin birth to the Son of God that raised the dead, turned water into wine, was killed and came back from the dead? You are conflating miracles with mysteries. All miracles involve mystery. |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 12:02:49 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All miracles involve mystery. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You are conflating miracles with mysteries. All miracles involve mystery. That may be your opinion. |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 12:13:45 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would suggest that you read some of the more thoughtful critics of Calvinism, there are many. I spent a great deal of time looking at both sides and found it to be a fraud. 
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Posted: 10/28/2016 12:16:47 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With all the wonder and beauty of nature around them, I am baffled as to why people people seek the word of God in a man made structure. Thats the creation. Many want to know the Creator. |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 12:21:46 PM EDT
[#44]
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Posted: 10/28/2016 12:22:21 PM EDT
[#45]
"My friend and mentor who was the assistant pastor there left. It left a pretty big hole for my wife and I there as he counseled us through a rocky part of our marriage."
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Posted: 10/28/2016 12:25:49 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
Well…go. did your church believe in the rapture doctrine? |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 12:27:24 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryLOL. That's actually pretty funny. |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 12:27:55 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's a very solidly grounded church. The one I went to was too big, though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Sounds a lot like Calvary Chapel. Preaching straight from the Bible. That's a very solidly grounded church. The one I went to was too big, though. Likely so for the denomination...that particular parish however has some issues. I see the same thing in the LCMS, it is solid as a whole, the western district however, has some serious problems. |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 12:33:05 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "My friend and mentor who was the assistant pastor there left. It left a pretty big hole for my wife and I there as he counseled us through a rocky part of our marriage." https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f1/2d/01/f12d01f97d13207582d6962651aee4e5.jpg |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 12:33:37 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: did your church believe in the rapture doctrine? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well…go. did your church believe in the rapture doctrine? |
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