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Link Posted: 10/20/2016 7:35:19 PM EDT
[#1]
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Quoted:
I feel that the State should get the first crack at the assets that
these people have left after expending tax money to recover their
bodies.

I feel divers should be able to do what they want though.
View Quote


Mr. Potato head, Mr. Potato Head...the state expended zero dollars to recover their bodies. Their bodies were recovered by private volunteers who pay for their own training, gas mixtures, travel expenses, etc.... One member of the recovery team was teaching a class and suspended the class and the subsequent revenue to go and recover the bodies.

Link Posted: 10/20/2016 7:35:23 PM EDT
[#2]

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Quoted:





No evidence supports that at all. You still think the government spent thousands recovering the bodies.   You're speculating, and making stupid, uninformed statements.  



Tell us, to allow us to better weigh your opinions. How many dives do you have?  How many below 100'? Highest dive cert?
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Quoted:



Quoted:




Apparently, only you know.  Because the actual experts don't know yet.   Granted, you're so ignorant that you think the government recovered the bodies, but you obviously have other answers nobody else does.


You are claiming I am wrong with no proof. The proof is that they are both dead

doing something stupid. The evidence thus far shows they are the negligent

parties.  

 


No evidence supports that at all. You still think the government spent thousands recovering the bodies.   You're speculating, and making stupid, uninformed statements.  



Tell us, to allow us to better weigh your opinions. How many dives do you have?  How many below 100'? Highest dive cert?






You are claiming something as fact and have no proof. I am claiming

something that is supported 100%. Until there is proof otherwise

it was their negligence that got them killed. Plain and simple.



 
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 7:36:21 PM EDT
[#3]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Mr. Potato head, Mr. Potato Head...the state expended zero dollars to recover their bodies. Their bodies were recovered by private volunteers who pay for their own training, gas mixtures, travel expenses, etc.... One member of the recovery team was teaching a class and suspended the class and the subsequent revenue to go and recover the bodies.



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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:

I feel that the State should get the first crack at the assets that

these people have left after expending tax money to recover their

bodies.



I feel divers should be able to do what they want though.




Mr. Potato head, Mr. Potato Head...the state expended zero dollars to recover their bodies. Their bodies were recovered by private volunteers who pay for their own training, gas mixtures, travel expenses, etc.... One member of the recovery team was teaching a class and suspended the class and the subsequent revenue to go and recover the bodies.





More name callers, I have no doubt that tax money was spent on this

matter.



 
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 7:37:16 PM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:

Paying for the training, equipment, salaries benefits would surely
add up to thousands.
 
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I feel that the State should get the first crack at the assets that
these people have left after expending tax money to recover their
bodies.

I feel divers should be able to do what they want though.

And tell us genius, how much money did the state expend recovering their bodies?

Thousands
 

Wrong

Paying for the training, equipment, salaries benefits would surely
add up to thousands.
 

This is probably the most obstinate, petty fucking shit I have ever seen on this site, and that says a lot.
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 7:37:17 PM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:

You are claiming I am wrong with no proof. The proof is that they are both dead
doing something stupid. The evidence thus far shows they are the negligent
parties.  
 
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What killed them then? I guess you blamed the table as well.

Look in the mirror
 

Have you done chemical analysis on any of their tanks? Nope, you're talking out of your ass.
Have you downloaded their computers?  Nope, you're talking out of your ass.
Have you seen the results of the blood gas tests? Nope, you're talking out of your ass.
Have you checked their scrubbers?  Nope, you're talking out of your ass.

Enlighten me, what killed them!
 

Apparently, only you know.  Because the actual experts don't know yet.   Granted, you're so ignorant that you think the government recovered the bodies, but you obviously have other answers nobody else does.

You are claiming I am wrong with no proof. The proof is that they are both dead
doing something stupid. The evidence thus far shows they are the negligent
parties.  
 


The only proof of anything is that you are ignorant.
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 7:37:43 PM EDT
[#6]
I dive out in the oceans, not in caves. That's because my La-Z-Boy doesn't fit in caves. It's too bad. If I were to drown in a cave, I'd like to be comfortable doing it.
 
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 7:39:23 PM EDT
[#7]


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Quoted:
The only proof of anything is that you are ignorant.


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Quoted:





Quoted:




Quoted:




Quoted:




Quoted:






Have you done chemical analysis on any of their tanks? Nope, you're talking out of your ass.


Have you downloaded their computers?  Nope, you're talking out of your ass.


Have you seen the results of the blood gas tests? Nope, you're talking out of your ass.


Have you checked their scrubbers?  Nope, you're talking out of your ass.



Enlighten me, what killed them!


 



Apparently, only you know.  Because the actual experts don't know yet.   Granted, you're so ignorant that you think the government recovered the bodies, but you obviously have other answers nobody else does.



You are claiming I am wrong with no proof. The proof is that they are both dead


doing something stupid. The evidence thus far shows they are the negligent


parties.  


 






The only proof of anything is that you are ignorant.





So you have no proof of what killed them either you are more


ignorant to make claims that are not supported.




 
 
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 7:40:38 PM EDT
[#8]
Based upon comments in Scubaboard I think that there were two teams of two non-police (assumption)  divers who recovered the bodies and equipment.  No doubt the police were there and will perhaps conduct the investigation with the assistance of a rescue organization (IUCRR).

There is a lot of information available already although I don't have the knowledge of this type diving to reach any conclusions.

When any dive computer data is recovered analysis of the gas used and possibly with Go Pro video, it is very likely that a definite or probably explanation of what happened will emerge in time.
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 7:41:23 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:

So you have no proof of what killed them either you are more
ignorant to make claims that are not supported.
   
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Quoted:
Quoted:


The only proof of anything is that you are ignorant.

So you have no proof of what killed them either you are more
ignorant to make claims that are not supported.
   


I am casting no judgment on them.

You are, and you are admitting that you you are ignorant, by your own definition.
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 7:43:13 PM EDT
[#10]

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Quoted:
I am casting no judgment on them.



You are, and you are admitting that you you are ignorant, by your own definition.
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Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:





The only proof of anything is that you are ignorant.



So you have no proof of what killed them either you are more

ignorant to make claims that are not supported.

   




I am casting no judgment on them.



You are, and you are admitting that you you are ignorant, by your own definition.
Not true. If proved otherwise I will admit my error. But at this point

it appears to be diver error.



 
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 7:43:17 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

You are claiming something as fact and have no proof. I am claiming
something that is supported 100%. Until there is proof otherwise
it was their negligence that got them killed. Plain and simple.
 
View Quote

So, no cave dives?  

Tell me, what evidence do you have that they were negligent vs say, contaminated gas?

Do you even know what gas they were breathing?

What kind of dive gear, when it was serviced?

Link Posted: 10/20/2016 7:44:52 PM EDT
[#12]


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Quoted:
So, no cave dives?  





Tell me, what evidence do you have that they were negligent vs say, contaminated gas?





Do you even know what gas they were breathing?





What kind of dive gear, when it was serviced?





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Quoted:





Quoted:





You are claiming something as fact and have no proof. I am claiming


something that is supported 100%. Until there is proof otherwise


it was their negligence that got them killed. Plain and simple.


 



So, no cave dives?  





Tell me, what evidence do you have that they were negligent vs say, contaminated gas?





Do you even know what gas they were breathing?





What kind of dive gear, when it was serviced?








Where is your proof that any of this happened?





Put up or shut up.





As I wrote above I will admit error if proven wrong.



I have lived in this State for 44 years and I have read about cave

diving accidents many many times and it is always diver error.

Getting lost or running out of gas mixture. I have never read about

an equipment malfunction.





 
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 7:45:22 PM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:
Not true. If proved otherwise I will admit my error. But at this point
it appears to be diver error.
 
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:


The only proof of anything is that you are ignorant.

So you have no proof of what killed them either you are more
ignorant to make claims that are not supported.
   


I am casting no judgment on them.

You are, and you are admitting that you you are ignorant, by your own definition.
Not true. If proved otherwise I will admit my error. But at this point
it appears to be diver error.
 
yet, you won't admit to being wrong about taxes funding the recovery.
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 7:47:12 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Not true. If proved otherwise I will admit my error. But at this point
it appears to be diver error.
 
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:


The only proof of anything is that you are ignorant.

So you have no proof of what killed them either you are more
ignorant to make claims that are not supported.
   


I am casting no judgment on them.

You are, and you are admitting that you you are ignorant, by your own definition.
Not true. If proved otherwise I will admit my error. But at this point
it appears to be diver error.
 

Diver error doesn't equate to the negligence standard used in assessing rescue costs.
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 7:47:38 PM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:

Where is your proof that any of this happened?

Put up or shut up.

As I wrote above I will admit error if proven wrong.
 
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

You are claiming something as fact and have no proof. I am claiming
something that is supported 100%. Until there is proof otherwise
it was their negligence that got them killed. Plain and simple.
 

So, no cave dives?  

Tell me, what evidence do you have that they were negligent vs say, contaminated gas?

Do you even know what gas they were breathing?

What kind of dive gear, when it was serviced?


Where is your proof that any of this happened?

Put up or shut up.

As I wrote above I will admit error if proven wrong.
 


Where is any of your proof?

That they are dead?

I can tell you are a really intelligent guy.

Just kidding.
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 7:48:03 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Where is your proof that any of this happened?

Put up or shut up.

As I wrote above I will admit error if proven wrong.
 
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

You are claiming something as fact and have no proof. I am claiming
something that is supported 100%. Until there is proof otherwise
it was their negligence that got them killed. Plain and simple.
 

So, no cave dives?  

Tell me, what evidence do you have that they were negligent vs say, contaminated gas?

Do you even know what gas they were breathing?

What kind of dive gear, when it was serviced?


Where is your proof that any of this happened?

Put up or shut up.

As I wrote above I will admit error if proven wrong.
 

What act of theirs was negligent?  

Again, since you can't even name the issues to be examined, you don't know the outcome of any of those issues, and refuse to list your dive qualifications, what info do you actually have?
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 7:50:26 PM EDT
[#17]
Jesus the signs are there to warn divers who are not cave trained to not dive past the signs. They are not there to tell people not to dive there at all.

Diving in enclosed overhead (cave or ship) environments requires specific training.  Diving in these environments below 180 feet requires specific training.  Diving CCR requires specific training. Diving CCR below 180 feet requires a specific training.

These divers had passed all the requirements for this type of dive.  They were experienced in doing this.

Cave diving CCR trimix is dangerous.  

The Nest adds to this danger because of the extreme depths that you face penetrating past the ballroom (even the ballroom gets to depth over 200 feet).  There is only one way out of the system and it's a small hole at 70ish feet that leads up a 30ish foot tube to a small pond.  The ballroom is the size of a small coliseum and has no light except the small exit hole and a false hole too small to fit through. Your lights can't penetrate far enough to see the opposit sides of the room.  The tunnel entrances are upstream and downstream and are over 200 feet deep.  

You cannot dive anything past the ballroom (limited to your narc depth) on air. You cannot dive this system unless you are running trimix CCR or trimix tanks.  Even then you need a large amount of bailout and deco tanks staged along the way. This dive would have had a surface team to help (see notes above). The recovery team is not state funded. They are professional cave recovery divers (about 2.5 hours north of the nest) that are part of a network of recovery divers that are available for these types of situations.  

It appears from the notes above that one of the divers had a CCR issues and when the team bingoed the dive there was an issues going open circuit on the deco obligations and they ran out of gas (my guess). The autopsy, computers and equipment analysis will ultimately tell the story.



Link Posted: 10/20/2016 7:58:00 PM EDT
[#18]

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Quoted:



yet, you won't admit to being wrong about taxes funding the recovery.

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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:





The only proof of anything is that you are ignorant.



So you have no proof of what killed them either you are more

ignorant to make claims that are not supported.

   




I am casting no judgment on them.



You are, and you are admitting that you you are ignorant, by your own definition.
Not true. If proved otherwise I will admit my error. But at this point

it appears to be diver error.

 
yet, you won't admit to being wrong about taxes funding the recovery.

Yes I did somewhat. Dispatchers. responding LEO's ambulances ect.



I still do no believe the volunteers do not get some help from the

Gov along the way.



 
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 8:04:43 PM EDT
[#19]
Here is the website of the rescue/recovery organization that may have had members involved in the recovery.

http://www.iucrr.org/index.php

"Yes. The IUCRR is registered in the State of Florida as a non-profit organization. No members are paid for their services, nor is anyone on the board of directors paid. All funds contributed to the IUCRR are used for administrative support and to support divers during a rescue/recovery operation."
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 8:09:46 PM EDT
[#20]
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Quoted:

I still do no believe the volunteers do not get some help from the
Gov along the way.
 
View Quote

How many have you spoken with?

I've spoken with 3 so far and read info from 2 more.

You're talking out of your ass.

This incident is causing the worst infighting I've ever seen among dive pros, a know nothing know it all like you sure as hell isn't going to come up with anything.
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 8:15:42 PM EDT
[#21]


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Quoted:
How many have you spoken with?





I've spoken with 3 so far and read info from 2 more.





You're talking out of your ass.





This incident is causing the worst infighting I've ever seen among dive pros, a know nothing know it all like you sure as hell isn't going to come up with anything.
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Quoted:





Quoted:





I still do no believe the volunteers do not get some help from the


Gov along the way.


 



How many have you spoken with?





I've spoken with 3 so far and read info from 2 more.





You're talking out of your ass.





This incident is causing the worst infighting I've ever seen among dive pros, a know nothing know it all like you sure as hell isn't going to come up with anything.






Every volunteer I have seen trains with the gov and there are


gov expenditures involved. But the LEO call, dispatcher and ambulances


would have cost at least 2 grand.





Do you realize that Counties bill people for the cleanup and traffic

control cost due to and at fault accident here? Yes they do and it

amounts to thousands of dollars. I see the bills weekly.





 
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 8:16:14 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Here is the website of the rescue/recovery organization that may have had members involved in the recovery.

http://www.iucrr.org/index.php

"Yes. The IUCRR is registered in the State of Florida as a non-profit organization. No members are paid for their services, nor is anyone on the board of directors paid. All funds contributed to the IUCRR are used for administrative support and to support divers during a rescue/recovery operation."
View Quote

Thousands of dollars of taxes!  Oh wait
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 8:18:22 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Every volunteer I have seen trains with the gov and there are
gov expenditures involved. But the LEO call, dispatcher and ambulances
would have cost at least 2 grand.
 
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

I still do no believe the volunteers do not get some help from the
Gov along the way.
 

How many have you spoken with?

I've spoken with 3 so far and read info from 2 more.

You're talking out of your ass.

This incident is causing the worst infighting I've ever seen among dive pros, a know nothing know it all like you sure as hell isn't going to come up with anything.


Every volunteer I have seen trains with the gov and there are
gov expenditures involved. But the LEO call, dispatcher and ambulances
would have cost at least 2 grand.
 

Stop embarrassing yourself.  

Link Posted: 10/20/2016 8:20:21 PM EDT
[#24]

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Quoted:





Stop embarrassing yourself.  



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Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:



I still do no believe the volunteers do not get some help from the

Gov along the way.

 


How many have you spoken with?



I've spoken with 3 so far and read info from 2 more.



You're talking out of your ass.



This incident is causing the worst infighting I've ever seen among dive pros, a know nothing know it all like you sure as hell isn't going to come up with anything.




Every volunteer I have seen trains with the gov and there are

gov expenditures involved. But the LEO call, dispatcher and ambulances

would have cost at least 2 grand.

 


Stop embarrassing yourself.  





How much is an ambulance ride? How many hours were the LEO's

on site? You are the one that has no clue.



 
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 8:24:05 PM EDT
[#25]
Episode VIII
The Petty Accounting Continues


With the fall of the First Order,
the Resistance regroups and attempts
to account for the overall cost of

their efforts.  Accountant Banditman
determines that the misappropriated
TIE fighter, piloted by Poe Dameron,

should be an imputed cost debited to
or against the cost of the rebellion
or some other accounting fuckery that

nobody can really follow.  In an
attempt to ween the Resistance off
the tit of the Galactic Empire, and

all their stolen and blown up shit,
Banditman gets into a light saber battle
with Poe over the accouting irregularities ...
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 8:25:45 PM EDT
[#26]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Episode VIII

The Petty Accounting Continues




With the fall of the First Order,

the Resistance regroups and attempts

to account for the overall cost of


their efforts.  Accountant Banditman

determines that the misappropriated

TIE fighter, piloted by Poe Dameron,


should be an imputed cost debited to

or against the cost of the rebellion

or some other accounting fuckery that


nobody can really follow.  In an

attempt to ween the Resistance off

the tit of the Galactic Empire, and


all their stolen and blown up shit,

Banditman gets into a light saber battle

with Poe over the accouting irregularities ...
View Quote


So instead of providing facts you resort to insults.



Figures



 
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 8:25:56 PM EDT
[#27]
Meh, I don't get why everyone is all worked up over how "stupid" they were.

It sounds like they were experienced divers.They probably knew what they were doing and knew the risks.  Something obviously went wrong.  They died...it happens.  They wanted to go on an adventure.  They weren't putting anyone but themselves at risk by doing so.  I have no problem with it and without more information than that don't look down on them for it.
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 8:27:49 PM EDT
[#28]


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Meh, I don't get why everyone is all worked up over how "stupid" they were.





It sounds like they were experienced divers.They probably knew what they were doing and knew the risks.  Something obviously went wrong.  They died...it happens.  They wanted to go on an adventure.  They weren't putting anyone but themselves at risk by doing so.  I have no problem with it and without more information than that don't look down on them for it.
View Quote



I am not looking down on them, but am a fond believer in personal responsibility
 
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 8:35:17 PM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

How much is an ambulance ride? How many hours were the LEO's
on site? You are the one that has no clue.
 
View Quote

Ambulances generally don't haul dead bodies.  Coroner's do that, and they're on salaried call.
The Leo's get paid whether they were at the pond or not.

I have no clue about public safety response? I'm a fucking firefighter, and my wife is an LEO.

The only extra cost would be fuel for the coroner's van.



And your claim was body recovery.  The government didn't recover the body.

You're so desperate to not be wrong that you're moving the goal posts.
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 8:40:19 PM EDT
[#30]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:





Ambulances generally don't haul dead bodies.  Coroner's do that, and they're on salaried call.

The Leo's get paid whether they were at the pond or not.



I have no clue about public safety response? I'm a fucking firefighter, and my wife is an LEO.



The only extra cost would be fuel for the coroner's van.
And your claim was body recovery.  The government didn't recover the body.



You're so desperate to not be wrong that you're moving the goal posts.
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Quoted:



Quoted:



How much is an ambulance ride? How many hours were the LEO's

on site? You are the one that has no clue.

 


Ambulances generally don't haul dead bodies.  Coroner's do that, and they're on salaried call.

The Leo's get paid whether they were at the pond or not.



I have no clue about public safety response? I'm a fucking firefighter, and my wife is an LEO.



The only extra cost would be fuel for the coroner's van.
And your claim was body recovery.  The government didn't recover the body.



You're so desperate to not be wrong that you're moving the goal posts.


Body recovery involves all of this. Don't be obtuse.



Ambulances haul dead bodies and the cost is 700 to 800 a piece

on average. I know this because I have paid 1000's of bills

on the job. I have admitted I was wrong about the divers. But

the whole cost is thousands of dollars and you know it.



 
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 8:41:58 PM EDT
[#31]
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STATEMENT OF FACTS

1. Chris Rittenmeyer and Patrick Peacock started a dive at Eagle's Nest around 2:00 p.m. on Saturday, October 15, 2016. They were on JJ-CCRs with 95cf sidemount bailouts. Each diver had a scooter and an AL80 safety. They also towed a backup scooter. They had placed all their deco safeties in the cave the day before.

2. Chris and Patrick were both fully trained as Full Cave, Trimix, CCR, and DPV divers. Both divers had years of ocean and cave diving experience.

3. When the divers failed to return to deco at the anticipated time, their surface support buddy checked every 30 minutes until they were several hours overdue. Their buddy called Cave Country Dive Shop around 6:00 p.m. and spoke to Jon Bernot, who immediately loaded his vehicle and started driving to Eagle's Nest. While enroute, Jon called around and activated a response team of qualified and available cave divers.

4. Search Team 1, of Jon Bernot and Charlie Roberson, got underway around 11:00 p.m. to search the upstream passage, which was the dive plan according to the buddy. Team 1 checked the habitat and spotted three O2 bottles at 20 ffw, four 50% at 70 ffw, and two 120 bottles on the top of the mound, all of which were untouched. Team 1 noticed that the 120 bottles were on the downstream side of the line but decided to go ahead and check the upstream since that was believed to be the dive plan. Team 1 scoured the entire upstream all the way to the far reaches of the Green Room, King's Challenge, and all the large passage and rooms. When Team I failed to find anything upstream, they proceeded to check the Lockwood tunnel to no avail. Team 1 surfaced around 3:30 a.m.

5. Search Team 2, of Ted McCoy and AJ Gonzales, got underway around 3:45 a.m. and headed downstream. They immediately found the two bodies on the exit side of the Pit in approximately 220-230 ffw. Team 2 fully documented the scene and took detailed notes for about 45 minutes before exiting.

6. Diver 1 was wearing his CCR but his bailouts were not in place. One empty 95 bailout was beside him and attached to his rig via a QC6 and the long hose was deployed. His loop was open and out of his mouth. The inhale side of the loop was crushed. He had 300 psi of O2 but no onboard diluent remaining. He did have a 13cf inflation bottle with gas remaining. He had no primary light head and his backup lights were not deployed. There was a single scooter near Diver 1 but it was unclipped and turned off.

7. Diver 2 was only wearing a drysuit, mask and fins and was positively buoyant. He had a backup light clipped off and dangling out of his pocket. No other bottles were nearby.

8. A full AL80 safety was located just on the exit side of the Pit restriction in 270 ffw but was not easily seen on the way out. The primary light head with e/o cord was also located on the exit side of the Pit restriction. Their other full AL80 safety was located beside another team’s full safety just downstream of the jump to the Lockwood tunnel.

9. Two 95 bailouts were located just on the far side of the Pit. Both were empty.

10. Recovery Team 1 brought both bodies to the top of the Ballroom and Recovery Team 2 brought both bodies to the surface on Sunday afternoon.

11. Diver 2's CCR, a 95 bailout, and two scooters were located on Monday morning just outside the restriction to Revelation Space in the Room of Dreams. The CCR loop was closed and appeared to be fully operational. The 95 bailout was full. Diver 2 had video lights for a GoPro plugged into his canister light.

12. The gear recovery team of Jon Bernot and James Draker removed all the gear from the cave and turned it over to law enforcement on Monday, October 17, 2016.

Charlie Roberson
View Quote


WOW that's a crazy statement of facts.


  • Wearing CCR but bailouts not in place.

  • Empty bailout with long hose deployed.

  • Open loop out of his mouth, AND inhale side of loop was crushed.  Wonder what caused that.

  • Out of diluent.

  • No primary light head, backups not deployed.  That's weird.

  • Primary light head with e/o cord found away from bodies.

  • (2) empty 95s as bailouts.

  • All that plus a fully functioning, closed, CCR with full bailout.



What the shit.
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 8:47:42 PM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Body recovery involves all of this. Don't be obtuse.

Ambulances haul dead bodies and the cost is 700 to 800 a piece
on average. I know this because I have paid 1000's of bills
on the job. I have admitted I was wrong about the divers. But
the whole cost is thousands of dollars and you know it.
 
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

How much is an ambulance ride? How many hours were the LEO's
on site? You are the one that has no clue.
 

Ambulances generally don't haul dead bodies.  Coroner's do that, and they're on salaried call.
The Leo's get paid whether they were at the pond or not.

I have no clue about public safety response? I'm a fucking firefighter, and my wife is an LEO.

The only extra cost would be fuel for the coroner's van.



And your claim was body recovery.  The government didn't recover the body.

You're so desperate to not be wrong that you're moving the goal posts.

Body recovery involves all of this. Don't be obtuse.

Ambulances haul dead bodies and the cost is 700 to 800 a piece
on average. I know this because I have paid 1000's of bills
on the job. I have admitted I was wrong about the divers. But
the whole cost is thousands of dollars and you know it.
 


If you are a resident of Hernando County pm me your address and I will mail you a check for $0.05 to cover your portion of the bill.  I wouldn't want you to be put out.
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 8:50:40 PM EDT
[#33]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If you are a resident of Hernando County pm me your address and I will mail you a check for $0.05 to cover your portion of the bill.  I wouldn't want you to be put out.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:



How much is an ambulance ride? How many hours were the LEO's

on site? You are the one that has no clue.

 


Ambulances generally don't haul dead bodies.  Coroner's do that, and they're on salaried call.

The Leo's get paid whether they were at the pond or not.



I have no clue about public safety response? I'm a fucking firefighter, and my wife is an LEO.



The only extra cost would be fuel for the coroner's van.
And your claim was body recovery.  The government didn't recover the body.



You're so desperate to not be wrong that you're moving the goal posts.


Body recovery involves all of this. Don't be obtuse.



Ambulances haul dead bodies and the cost is 700 to 800 a piece

on average. I know this because I have paid 1000's of bills

on the job. I have admitted I was wrong about the divers. But

the whole cost is thousands of dollars and you know it.

 




If you are a resident of Hernando County pm me your address and I will mail you a check for $0.05 to cover your portion of the bill.  I wouldn't want you to be put out.


I am concerned about all tax payers and it adds up. if you don't

believe this you must be a communist.



 
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 8:51:12 PM EDT
[#34]
Nasty side of humanity in this thread.

May the divers Rest In Peace.
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 8:52:14 PM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Body recovery involves all of this. Don't be obtuse.

Ambulances haul dead bodies and the cost is 700 to 800 a piece
on average. I know this because I have paid 1000's of bills
on the job. I have admitted I was wrong about the divers. But
the whole cost is thousands of dollars and you know it.
 
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

How much is an ambulance ride? How many hours were the LEO's
on site? You are the one that has no clue.
 

Ambulances generally don't haul dead bodies.  Coroner's do that, and they're on salaried call.
The Leo's get paid whether they were at the pond or not.

I have no clue about public safety response? I'm a fucking firefighter, and my wife is an LEO.

The only extra cost would be fuel for the coroner's van.



And your claim was body recovery.  The government didn't recover the body.

You're so desperate to not be wrong that you're moving the goal posts.

Body recovery involves all of this. Don't be obtuse.

Ambulances haul dead bodies and the cost is 700 to 800 a piece
on average. I know this because I have paid 1000's of bills
on the job. I have admitted I was wrong about the divers. But
the whole cost is thousands of dollars and you know it.
 

So, then you should know that the family will likely receive a bill for transport costs.

But, instead, you are arguing about affixing a dollar amount of LEO retirement packages and SAR depreciation write offs based on their participation in this recovery?
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 8:58:29 PM EDT
[#36]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:





  One day I might get to see something like this.





http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f297/clinck/14706750_10101289752808845_7693724567017256222_o_zpsl3etsmgt.jpg

One of those three taught my nitrox class.

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:

This site is full of the some of the most boring, risk adverse, compulsive rule followers I've ever seen.



Two adventurers got in over their heads and paid for it with their lives.  It doesn't mean they were idiots or deserved to die.  Life must be awfully boring when you never peel your ass from the lazy boy.


  One day I might get to see something like this.





http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f297/clinck/14706750_10101289752808845_7693724567017256222_o_zpsl3etsmgt.jpg

One of those three taught my nitrox class.





 
I'm getting claustrophobic just looking at that photo!  
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 8:59:16 PM EDT
[#37]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:





So, then you should know that the family will likely receive a bill for transport costs.



But, instead, you are arguing about affixing a dollar amount of LEO retirement packages and SAR depreciation write offs based on their participation in this recovery?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:



How much is an ambulance ride? How many hours were the LEO's

on site? You are the one that has no clue.

 


Ambulances generally don't haul dead bodies.  Coroner's do that, and they're on salaried call.

The Leo's get paid whether they were at the pond or not.



I have no clue about public safety response? I'm a fucking firefighter, and my wife is an LEO.



The only extra cost would be fuel for the coroner's van.
And your claim was body recovery.  The government didn't recover the body.



You're so desperate to not be wrong that you're moving the goal posts.


Body recovery involves all of this. Don't be obtuse.



Ambulances haul dead bodies and the cost is 700 to 800 a piece

on average. I know this because I have paid 1000's of bills

on the job. I have admitted I was wrong about the divers. But

the whole cost is thousands of dollars and you know it.

 


So, then you should know that the family will likely receive a bill for transport costs.



But, instead, you are arguing about affixing a dollar amount of LEO retirement packages and SAR depreciation write offs based on their participation in this recovery?


Unless it is their spouse, no one else has responsibility. Write offs are

tax breaks and again does not help us.... But go back and read what I

wrote. I said the State should have first crack at their assets. If there are

no assets then of course there is no recourse.  



 
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 8:59:50 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Paying for the training, equipment, salaries benefits would surely
add up to thousands.
 
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I feel that the State should get the first crack at the assets that
these people have left after expending tax money to recover their
bodies.

I feel divers should be able to do what they want though.

And tell us genius, how much money did the state expend recovering their bodies?

Thousands
 

Wrong

Paying for the training, equipment, salaries benefits would surely
add up to thousands.
 


I'm sure somewhere below me someone will post this but this is a community that recovers its own. Because municipalities can't stay trained enough to do it. Cost to the state=you don't know what you are talking about.
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 9:02:14 PM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


So instead of providing facts you resort to insults.

Figures
 
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:



So instead of providing facts you resort to insults.

Figures
 

Here.

Using these search terms in Google
"YOSAR rescue no rain fly on a portaledge"
I was able to find this article, with facts and CFRs and $ amounts and stuff, that seems to gist pretty well with what I wrote in my post.

Stranded, Inadequate Clothing and Equipment, Weather, California, Yosemite Valley, El Capitan


STRANDED, INADEQUATE CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT, WEATHER

California, Yosemite Valley, El Capitan

On May 16, 1996, the National Park Service rescued Austrian climbers Christian Zenz (22) and Christian Wassertheurer (27) from The Shield on El Capitan, after the pair had been exposed to a storm without a fly for their portaledge.

The pair got advice about the route from friends and from Yosemite Climbs. Zenz had also read the guide book chapter entitled “Staying Alive,” which describes Yosemite storms and tactics for surviving them.

On Sunday morning, May 12, they checked the weather forecast, which called for sunny skies with a slight cooling trend, and started climbing. By Tuesday night they had completed one pitch above the Shield Roof. Tuesday was windy and cloudy but, in their opinion, not indicative of a storm. This was the first hanging bivouac they had encountered on the climb, and the first time they had needed their borrowed portaledge. When they set it up, they discovered that there was no rain fly. It rained that night, but they stayed fairly dry by using plastic tube tents over their sleeping bags.

The rain stopped Wednesday morning, allowing them to dry their clothes and sleeping bags in the breeze. They had 11 pitches to go, it was still cloudy, and without the fly they were completely exposed to further bad weather. Retreat was an option. The 25- foot roof would be difficult to down climb, but it was fixed and they had a cheater stick. However they thought the weather might improve, so they decided to continue up.

About 1400, before they could begin climbing, the rain began again. This time it was heavy, with a strong wind that blew their portaledge around. The wind and rain, mixed with sleet, continued through the night, and the temperature dipped below freezing with ice coating the wall. They were now soaking wet and very cold, in the “hardest” bivvy of their careers.

Wassertheurer was using a down sleeping bag. It was rated to well below freezing but it became useless as it got wet. They wore Gore-tex storm jackets and pants but claimed that the wind blew water through the fabric. Although they now realized they should rappel, their hands had become too cold to operate carabiners and they would certainly deteriorate further if they tried to descend. Thursday morning, knowing they were trapped, they called for a rescue.

The rain stopped by midday. After attempts to deliver a portaledge and bivvy gear by helicopter were thwarted by strong downdrafts, the rescue team was flown to the summit and one rescuer lowered to them. Zenz and Wassertheurer were able to jumar about 1000 feet to the rim without difficulty.

Analysis

Zenz and Wassertheurer each had eight years of climbing experience and climbed 5.13. They had climbed in many parts of the world, on multi-day routes, in rain, snow, wind, and cold temperatures. They had climbed the Nose on El Capitan just prior to attempting the Shield.

They stated later that they had borrowed the portaledge in Austria and had assumed the fly was in the same sack as the ledge; when they packed for the climb they did not attempt to check its condition, let alone that it was there in the first place. They agreed that they would have borrowed a rain fly before starting the climb, had they known theirs was missing.

Down is well known to lose almost all insulative value when wet. Wassertheurer relied on the shell material because it was supposed to be “highly water-resistant.” He had apparently never tested it in truly wet conditions. Neither climber had bivvy sacks. We recommend (but do not guarantee) them as a second line of defense against condensation or leaks inside a portaledge.

Zenz and Wassertheurer were cited by the NPS for “creating a hazardous condition” by unnecessarily putting rescuers at risk, under 36 CFR 2.34 (a) (4). They pled guilty and were placed on one year’s probation on the condition that they pay rescue costs totaling $13,325. (Source: Keith Lober, John Dill, NPS Rangers, Yosemite National Park)

http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13199702200/print
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 9:07:25 PM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


WOW that's a crazy statement of facts.


  • Wearing CCR but bailouts not in place.

  • Empty bailout with long hose deployed.

  • Open loop out of his mouth, AND inhale side of loop was crushed.  Wonder what caused that.

  • Out of diluent.

  • No primary light head, backups not deployed.  That's weird.

  • Primary light head with e/o cord found away from bodies.

  • (2) empty 95s as bailouts.

  • All that plus a fully functioning, closed, CCR with full bailout.



What the shit.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
STATEMENT OF FACTS

1. Chris Rittenmeyer and Patrick Peacock started a dive at Eagle's Nest around 2:00 p.m. on Saturday, October 15, 2016. They were on JJ-CCRs with 95cf sidemount bailouts. Each diver had a scooter and an AL80 safety. They also towed a backup scooter. They had placed all their deco safeties in the cave the day before.

2. Chris and Patrick were both fully trained as Full Cave, Trimix, CCR, and DPV divers. Both divers had years of ocean and cave diving experience.

3. When the divers failed to return to deco at the anticipated time, their surface support buddy checked every 30 minutes until they were several hours overdue. Their buddy called Cave Country Dive Shop around 6:00 p.m. and spoke to Jon Bernot, who immediately loaded his vehicle and started driving to Eagle's Nest. While enroute, Jon called around and activated a response team of qualified and available cave divers.

4. Search Team 1, of Jon Bernot and Charlie Roberson, got underway around 11:00 p.m. to search the upstream passage, which was the dive plan according to the buddy. Team 1 checked the habitat and spotted three O2 bottles at 20 ffw, four 50% at 70 ffw, and two 120 bottles on the top of the mound, all of which were untouched. Team 1 noticed that the 120 bottles were on the downstream side of the line but decided to go ahead and check the upstream since that was believed to be the dive plan. Team 1 scoured the entire upstream all the way to the far reaches of the Green Room, King's Challenge, and all the large passage and rooms. When Team I failed to find anything upstream, they proceeded to check the Lockwood tunnel to no avail. Team 1 surfaced around 3:30 a.m.

5. Search Team 2, of Ted McCoy and AJ Gonzales, got underway around 3:45 a.m. and headed downstream. They immediately found the two bodies on the exit side of the Pit in approximately 220-230 ffw. Team 2 fully documented the scene and took detailed notes for about 45 minutes before exiting.

6. Diver 1 was wearing his CCR but his bailouts were not in place. One empty 95 bailout was beside him and attached to his rig via a QC6 and the long hose was deployed. His loop was open and out of his mouth. The inhale side of the loop was crushed. He had 300 psi of O2 but no onboard diluent remaining. He did have a 13cf inflation bottle with gas remaining. He had no primary light head and his backup lights were not deployed. There was a single scooter near Diver 1 but it was unclipped and turned off.

7. Diver 2 was only wearing a drysuit, mask and fins and was positively buoyant. He had a backup light clipped off and dangling out of his pocket. No other bottles were nearby.

8. A full AL80 safety was located just on the exit side of the Pit restriction in 270 ffw but was not easily seen on the way out. The primary light head with e/o cord was also located on the exit side of the Pit restriction. Their other full AL80 safety was located beside another team’s full safety just downstream of the jump to the Lockwood tunnel.

9. Two 95 bailouts were located just on the far side of the Pit. Both were empty.

10. Recovery Team 1 brought both bodies to the top of the Ballroom and Recovery Team 2 brought both bodies to the surface on Sunday afternoon.

11. Diver 2's CCR, a 95 bailout, and two scooters were located on Monday morning just outside the restriction to Revelation Space in the Room of Dreams. The CCR loop was closed and appeared to be fully operational. The 95 bailout was full. Diver 2 had video lights for a GoPro plugged into his canister light.

12. The gear recovery team of Jon Bernot and James Draker removed all the gear from the cave and turned it over to law enforcement on Monday, October 17, 2016.

Charlie Roberson


WOW that's a crazy statement of facts.


  • Wearing CCR but bailouts not in place.

  • Empty bailout with long hose deployed.

  • Open loop out of his mouth, AND inhale side of loop was crushed.  Wonder what caused that.

  • Out of diluent.

  • No primary light head, backups not deployed.  That's weird.

  • Primary light head with e/o cord found away from bodies.

  • (2) empty 95s as bailouts.

  • All that plus a fully functioning, closed, CCR with full bailout.



What the shit.



Can you sort of translate that so people that don't use CCR's can understand it? What is a bailout? long hose? diluent? Etc...
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 9:09:38 PM EDT
[#41]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:





Here.



Using these search terms in Google

"YOSAR rescue no rain fly on a portaledge"

I was able to find this article, with facts and CFRs and $ amounts and stuff, that seems to gist pretty well with what I wrote in my post.




View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:







So instead of providing facts you resort to insults.



Figures

 


Here.



Using these search terms in Google

"YOSAR rescue no rain fly on a portaledge"

I was able to find this article, with facts and CFRs and $ amounts and stuff, that seems to gist pretty well with what I wrote in my post.




Stranded, Inadequate Clothing and Equipment, Weather, California, Yosemite Valley, El Capitan





STRANDED, INADEQUATE CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT, WEATHER



California, Yosemite Valley, El Capitan



On May 16, 1996, the National Park Service rescued Austrian climbers Christian Zenz (22) and Christian Wassertheurer (27) from The Shield on El Capitan, after the pair had been exposed to a storm without a fly for their portaledge.



The pair got advice about the route from friends and from Yosemite Climbs. Zenz had also read the guide book chapter entitled "Staying Alive,” which describes Yosemite storms and tactics for surviving them.



On Sunday morning, May 12, they checked the weather forecast, which called for sunny skies with a slight cooling trend, and started climbing. By Tuesday night they had completed one pitch above the Shield Roof. Tuesday was windy and cloudy but, in their opinion, not indicative of a storm. This was the first hanging bivouac they had encountered on the climb, and the first time they had needed their borrowed portaledge. When they set it up, they discovered that there was no rain fly. It rained that night, but they stayed fairly dry by using plastic tube tents over their sleeping bags.



The rain stopped Wednesday morning, allowing them to dry their clothes and sleeping bags in the breeze. They had 11 pitches to go, it was still cloudy, and without the fly they were completely exposed to further bad weather. Retreat was an option. The 25- foot roof would be difficult to down climb, but it was fixed and they had a cheater stick. However they thought the weather might improve, so they decided to continue up.



About 1400, before they could begin climbing, the rain began again. This time it was heavy, with a strong wind that blew their portaledge around. The wind and rain, mixed with sleet, continued through the night, and the temperature dipped below freezing with ice coating the wall. They were now soaking wet and very cold, in the "hardest” bivvy of their careers.



Wassertheurer was using a down sleeping bag. It was rated to well below freezing but it became useless as it got wet. They wore Gore-tex storm jackets and pants but claimed that the wind blew water through the fabric. Although they now realized they should rappel, their hands had become too cold to operate carabiners and they would certainly deteriorate further if they tried to descend. Thursday morning, knowing they were trapped, they called for a rescue.



The rain stopped by midday. After attempts to deliver a portaledge and bivvy gear by helicopter were thwarted by strong downdrafts, the rescue team was flown to the summit and one rescuer lowered to them. Zenz and Wassertheurer were able to jumar about 1000 feet to the rim without difficulty.



Analysis



Zenz and Wassertheurer each had eight years of climbing experience and climbed 5.13. They had climbed in many parts of the world, on multi-day routes, in rain, snow, wind, and cold temperatures. They had climbed the Nose on El Capitan just prior to attempting the Shield.



They stated later that they had borrowed the portaledge in Austria and had assumed the fly was in the same sack as the ledge; when they packed for the climb they did not attempt to check its condition, let alone that it was there in the first place. They agreed that they would have borrowed a rain fly before starting the climb, had they known theirs was missing.



Down is well known to lose almost all insulative value when wet. Wassertheurer relied on the shell material because it was supposed to be "highly water-resistant.” He had apparently never tested it in truly wet conditions. Neither climber had bivvy sacks. We recommend (but do not guarantee) them as a second line of defense against condensation or leaks inside a portaledge.



Zenz and Wassertheurer were cited by the NPS for "creating a hazardous condition” by unnecessarily putting rescuers at risk, under 36 CFR 2.34 (a) (4). They pled guilty and were placed on one year’s probation on the condition that they pay rescue costs totaling $13,325. (Source: Keith Lober, John Dill, NPS Rangers, Yosemite National Park)



http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13199702200/print

Not sure how that relates, but if anything supports my claim

to pay your way.



 
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 9:17:26 PM EDT
[#42]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Episode VIII

The Petty Accounting Continues




With the fall of the First Order,

the Resistance regroups and attempts

to account for the overall cost of


their efforts.  Accountant Banditman

determines that the misappropriated

TIE fighter, piloted by Poe Dameron,


should be an imputed cost debited to

or against the cost of the rebellion

or some other accounting fuckery that


nobody can really follow.  In an

attempt to ween the Resistance off

the tit of the Galactic Empire, and


all their stolen and blown up shit,

Banditman gets into a light saber battle

with Poe over the accouting irregularities ...
View Quote




I love the threads where one person can't just unsubscribe and let it go, and instead has to keep digging the hole.



 
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 9:18:13 PM EDT
[#43]
Jesus what a pissin contest...

May the divers rest in peace..

Can someone who knows what they're talking about condense the following into terms we can understand please?:

"
Wearing CCR but bailouts not in place.

Empty bailout with long hose deployed.

Open loop out of his mouth, AND inhale side of loop was crushed. Wonder what caused that.

Out of diluent.

No primary light head, backups not deployed. That's weird.

Primary light head with e/o cord found away from bodies.

(2) empty 95s as bailouts.

All that plus a fully functioning, closed, CCR with full bailout.

Link Posted: 10/20/2016 9:19:15 PM EDT
[#44]



Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I love the threads where one person can't just unsubscribe and let it go, and instead has to keep digging the hole.



 
View Quote




I have not dug a hole at all. you prove me wrong!



That post a few back seems to prove me right.
 
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 9:25:46 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Not sure how that relates, but if anything supports my claim
to pay your way.
 
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

Not sure how that relates, but if anything supports my claim
to pay your way.
 

You said the state should confiscate money.

I'm saying any sort of confiscation / award should need a statute and comparables / precedents.

... And that this accident doesn't seem to rise to the level of negligence for which I have seen rescue costs assessed.
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 9:25:58 PM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Body recovery involves all of this. Don't be obtuse.

Ambulances haul dead bodies and the cost is 700 to 800 a piece
on average. I know this because I have paid 1000's of bills
on the job. I have admitted I was wrong about the divers. But
the whole cost is thousands of dollars and you know it.
 
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Body recovery involves all of this. Don't be obtuse.

Ambulances haul dead bodies and the cost is 700 to 800 a piece
on average. I know this because I have paid 1000's of bills
on the job. I have admitted I was wrong about the divers. But
the whole cost is thousands of dollars and you know it.
 


All the bodies I've stood watch over were either picked up by a funeral home or the medical examiners. There were no ambulances involved. In three years as an LEO and multiple years doing ride-alongs prior to getting hired, I have never once seen an ambulance transport a dead person, unless that's just a Hernando county thing. Seeing as I live and work in two separate counties, both of which are in the same district as Hernando, I doubt that's the case.

Here's a quote from the District 5 Medical Examiner's website:

When is an autopsy necessary?

A complete autopsy is most often performed in traumatic or violent deaths (gunshot, stabbing, electrocution, burn, poison, fall, drowning, starvation, suffocation, strangulation, etc.), any police custody death, suspected suicide or drug overdose and in most cases of child death. Investigation or autopsy is necessary in all traumatic deaths regardless of the duration of survival or hospitalization of the injured person if no complete recovery was made after the injury.

An autopsy is not normally performed when the death appears to be from natural causes, adequate medical history exists, and there are no indications of foul play. The medical examiner often receives such cases only because the attending physician is not in Florida and therefore cannot sign a Florida death certificate, or because the person has never been to a physician.

Is there a fee for an autopsy?

There is no fee for an autopsy performed by the Medical Examiner’s Office.  If a family desires to have an autopsy performed on the body of an individual whose death does not fall under Medical Examiner jurisdiction, the family may hire a private pathologist to perform the autopsy for a fee determined by that pathologist.


So what are we out, fuel for the medical examiner's van and the hourly rate of whoever came in contact with the two deceased persons while they were on scene? Like Dan said, the law enforcement officers investigating it were on-duty anyways and getting paid regardless of whether they were investigating this or sitting at a gas station drinking coffee.

Your argument makes about as much sense as demanding the government get the first crack at Grandma Mabel's estate when she's wearing her seatbelt and traveling the speed limit on I-75 and she blows a tire, causing her to lose control and crash into another vehicle, killing herself and injuring or killing others.

Had these two been improperly trained for the level of dive they were conducting, I'd agree with you. Had they been ill-equipped for the dive they were conducting, I'd agree with you again. I wish we could bill people who do astoundingly stupid shit for the use of public services above and beyond the norm, or for lying about an incident to get us to hassle their ex, their enemy, or that guy that looked at them wrong last week... but we can't.
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 9:28:13 PM EDT
[#47]

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Quoted:



You said the state should confiscate money.



I'm saying any sort of confiscation / award should need a statute and comparables / precedents.



... And that this accident doesn't seem to rise to the level of negligence for which I have seen rescue costs assessed.
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Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:



Not sure how that relates, but if anything supports my claim

to pay your way.

 
You said the state should confiscate money.



I'm saying any sort of confiscation / award should need a statute and comparables / precedents.



... And that this accident doesn't seem to rise to the level of negligence for which I have seen rescue costs assessed.


It is not confiscation. Did you read the post of the state they found them

in? I said the state should have first crack at the assets. That would take

a law or statute.



 
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 9:28:48 PM EDT
[#48]
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Quoted:

I have not dug a hole at all. you prove me wrong!

That post a few back seems to prove me right.
 
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Quoted:



I love the threads where one person can't just unsubscribe and let it go, and instead has to keep digging the hole.
 

I have not dug a hole at all. you prove me wrong!

That post a few back seems to prove me right.
 

IUCCR is not a part of EMS.
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 9:29:02 PM EDT
[#49]


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Quoted:
I have not dug a hole at all. you prove me wrong!





That post a few back seems to prove me right.


 
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Quoted:





Quoted:











I love the threads where one person can't just unsubscribe and let it go, and instead has to keep digging the hole.


 



I have not dug a hole at all. you prove me wrong!





That post a few back seems to prove me right.


 
Interesting how that was my first post in the thread, simply replying to something funny, and I never said who I thought was in the wrong, yet you automatically assumed it was you...





 
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 9:32:35 PM EDT
[#50]

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Quoted:
All the bodies I've stood watch over were either picked up by a funeral home or the medical examiners. There were no ambulances involved. In three years as an LEO and multiple years doing ride-alongs prior to getting hired, I have never once seen an ambulance transport a dead person, unless that's just a Hernando county thing. Seeing as I live and work in two separate counties, both of which are in the same district as Hernando, I doubt that's the case.



Here's a quote from the District 5 Medical Examiner's website:
So what are we out, fuel for the medical examiner's van and the hourly rate of whoever came in contact with the two deceased persons while they were on scene? Like Dan said, the law enforcement officers investigating it were on-duty anyways and getting paid regardless of whether they were investigating this or sitting at a gas station drinking coffee.



Your argument makes about as much sense as demanding the government get the first crack at Grandma Mabel's estate when she's wearing her seatbelt and traveling the speed limit on I-75 and she blows a tire, causing her to lose control and crash into another vehicle, killing herself and injuring or killing others.



Had these two been improperly trained for the level of dive they were conducting, I'd agree with you. Had they been ill-equipped for the dive they were conducting, I'd agree with you again. I wish we could bill people who do astoundingly stupid shit for the use of public services above and beyond the norm, or for lying about an incident to get us to hassle their ex, their enemy, or that guy that looked at them wrong last week... but we can't.
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Quoted:



Quoted:

Body recovery involves all of this. Don't be obtuse.



Ambulances haul dead bodies and the cost is 700 to 800 a piece

on average. I know this because I have paid 1000's of bills

on the job. I have admitted I was wrong about the divers. But

the whole cost is thousands of dollars and you know it.

 




All the bodies I've stood watch over were either picked up by a funeral home or the medical examiners. There were no ambulances involved. In three years as an LEO and multiple years doing ride-alongs prior to getting hired, I have never once seen an ambulance transport a dead person, unless that's just a Hernando county thing. Seeing as I live and work in two separate counties, both of which are in the same district as Hernando, I doubt that's the case.



Here's a quote from the District 5 Medical Examiner's website:




When is an autopsy necessary?



A complete autopsy is most often performed in traumatic or violent deaths (gunshot, stabbing, electrocution, burn, poison, fall, drowning, starvation, suffocation, strangulation, etc.), any police custody death, suspected suicide or drug overdose and in most cases of child death. Investigation or autopsy is necessary in all traumatic deaths regardless of the duration of survival or hospitalization of the injured person if no complete recovery was made after the injury.



An autopsy is not normally performed when the death appears to be from natural causes, adequate medical history exists, and there are no indications of foul play. The medical examiner often receives such cases only because the attending physician is not in Florida and therefore cannot sign a Florida death certificate, or because the person has never been to a physician.



Is there a fee for an autopsy?



There is no fee for an autopsy performed by the Medical Examiner’s Office.  If a family desires to have an autopsy performed on the body of an individual whose death does not fall under Medical Examiner jurisdiction, the family may hire a private pathologist to perform the autopsy for a fee determined by that pathologist.





So what are we out, fuel for the medical examiner's van and the hourly rate of whoever came in contact with the two deceased persons while they were on scene? Like Dan said, the law enforcement officers investigating it were on-duty anyways and getting paid regardless of whether they were investigating this or sitting at a gas station drinking coffee.



Your argument makes about as much sense as demanding the government get the first crack at Grandma Mabel's estate when she's wearing her seatbelt and traveling the speed limit on I-75 and she blows a tire, causing her to lose control and crash into another vehicle, killing herself and injuring or killing others.



Had these two been improperly trained for the level of dive they were conducting, I'd agree with you. Had they been ill-equipped for the dive they were conducting, I'd agree with you again. I wish we could bill people who do astoundingly stupid shit for the use of public services above and beyond the norm, or for lying about an incident to get us to hassle their ex, their enemy, or that guy that looked at them wrong last week... but we can't.


Sorry but ambulance carry dead people all the time. Regardless if

medical examiner or ambulance carried them it would be on the

tax payers. That breakdown of what they discovered in the cave

is crazy. Do you work car accidents? That is where my knowledge

base is.



 
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