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Posted: 9/21/2016 10:07:13 PM EDT
[#1]
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It doesn't have to have been the best solution in order to be legal. If it was legally an option, then it was legal. There's no 20/20 hindsight applied to what a reasonable LEO would have done given the information he had at the time of the action. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Good doesn't necessarily = legal shoot. I'd argue no shooting is good. It's actually a giant shit sandwich for all parties. It doesn't have to have been the best solution in order to be legal. If it was legally an option, then it was legal. There's no 20/20 hindsight applied to what a reasonable LEO would have done given the information he had at the time of the action. That was what I was getting at, I just didn't word it well. |
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Posted: 9/21/2016 10:07:36 PM EDT
[#2]
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Your assertions are flawed He agreed to surrender He had become far less agitated He wasn't attempting to flee or move to a populated area He agreed to come down with the officers He turned to face them after they REscalated the situation....knowing he became agitated each time they had done so prior He never moved towards them with the knives Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Had 2 lethal weapons, was within danger radius, refused legal orders to surrender for 6 hours, becoming increasingly agitated, attempting to flee/move to possible populated area, turned to face officers after bang detonated with knives in attack posture. Your assertions are flawed He agreed to surrender He had become far less agitated He wasn't attempting to flee or move to a populated area He agreed to come down with the officers He turned to face them after they REscalated the situation....knowing he became agitated each time they had done so prior He never moved towards them with the knives I find this information a bit suspect. Question your source. |
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Posted: 9/21/2016 10:08:14 PM EDT
[#3]
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That was what I was getting at, I just didn't word it well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Good doesn't necessarily = legal shoot. I'd argue no shooting is good. It's actually a giant shit sandwich for all parties. It doesn't have to have been the best solution in order to be legal. If it was legally an option, then it was legal. There's no 20/20 hindsight applied to what a reasonable LEO would have done given the information he had at the time of the action. That was what I was getting at, I just didn't word it well. I know. |
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Posted: 9/21/2016 10:13:53 PM EDT
[#4]
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I find this information a bit suspect. Question your source. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Had 2 lethal weapons, was within danger radius, refused legal orders to surrender for 6 hours, becoming increasingly agitated, attempting to flee/move to possible populated area, turned to face officers after bang detonated with knives in attack posture. Your assertions are flawed He agreed to surrender He had become far less agitated He wasn't attempting to flee or move to a populated area He agreed to come down with the officers He turned to face them after they REscalated the situation....knowing he became agitated each time they had done so prior He never moved towards them with the knives I find this information a bit suspect. Question your source. Umm, the hours of video...... The officers own statements...... |
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Posted: 9/21/2016 10:15:26 PM EDT
[#5]
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Want a cookie? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't believe you. Want a cookie? BURN seems to know what's going on, why don't you? |
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Posted: 9/21/2016 10:21:07 PM EDT
[#6]
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I know. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Good doesn't necessarily = legal shoot. I'd argue no shooting is good. It's actually a giant shit sandwich for all parties. It doesn't have to have been the best solution in order to be legal. If it was legally an option, then it was legal. There's no 20/20 hindsight applied to what a reasonable LEO would have done given the information he had at the time of the action. That was what I was getting at, I just didn't word it well. I know. This damn internet can be tricky 
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Posted: 9/21/2016 10:22:03 PM EDT
[#7]
James Boyd had paranoid schizophrenia as well as an extensive criminal history of aggravated battery against law enforcement in New Mexico and elsewhere.
Segments of police video played by the defense showed an agitated Boyd threatening to kill officers numerous times that March day. The case is about a clash between the duty of police to protect the community and assessing the danger Boyd posed, defense attorney Luis Robles said. He said Boyd was asked to surrender his knives 33 times but didn’t. “He was shot with his knives in his hands,” Robles said. Homeless in Life. In death I bet he has family popping up all over the place to put their names on the lawsuit. |
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Posted: 9/21/2016 10:22:08 PM EDT
[#8]
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Umm, the hours of video...... The officers own statements...... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Had 2 lethal weapons, was within danger radius, refused legal orders to surrender for 6 hours, becoming increasingly agitated, attempting to flee/move to possible populated area, turned to face officers after bang detonated with knives in attack posture. Your assertions are flawed He agreed to surrender He had become far less agitated He wasn't attempting to flee or move to a populated area He agreed to come down with the officers He turned to face them after they REscalated the situation....knowing he became agitated each time they had done so prior He never moved towards them with the knives I find this information a bit suspect. Question your source. Umm, the hours of video...... The officers own statements...... A former APD detective and his cohorts deigning to offer welcome in a briefing to an uninvited and uninitiated prole, using said video, statements and matters of record? |
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Posted: 9/21/2016 10:32:04 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Homeless in Life. In death I bet he has family popping up all over the place to put their names on the lawsuit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
James Boyd had paranoid schizophrenia as well as an extensive criminal history of aggravated battery against law enforcement in New Mexico and elsewhere.
Segments of police video played by the defense showed an agitated Boyd threatening to kill officers numerous times that March day. The case is about a clash between the duty of police to protect the community and assessing the danger Boyd posed, defense attorney Luis Robles said. He said Boyd was asked to surrender his knives 33 times but didn’t. “He was shot with his knives in his hands,” Robles said. Homeless in Life. In death I bet he has family popping up all over the place to put their names on the lawsuit. I believe they were sought out by the DAs office. |
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Posted: 9/23/2016 12:08:24 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
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Those dudes rolled heavy to get a bum off a hill.  Who threatened to stab several people on the nearby walking path, hence why LE was called http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-to-someone-with-a-hammer-everything-looks-like-a-nail-mark-twain-87-46-45.jpg Are you arguing that cops shouldn't be armed? |
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Posted: 9/23/2016 12:16:08 PM EDT
[#11]
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Agreed. That was uncalled for. The police precipitated that bad outcome. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yeah that was bullshit the guy was packing up and complying they didn't need to flashbang him bunch of trigger happy assholes Agreed. That was uncalled for. The police precipitated that bad outcome. Bad guys just need love and understanding. My bum dindu nuthin. 
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Posted: 9/23/2016 12:25:02 PM EDT
[#12]
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Want a cookie? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't believe you. Want a cookie? I hope you brought a whole box because I don't believe you either unless everyone you know is some kind of cop hating gun nut version of Bum Lives Matter. |
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Posted: 9/23/2016 12:45:09 PM EDT
[#13]
First time I watched the vid I was all WTF
Then I heard rumors he had knives in his hands, so I rewatched the video in full screen on a 70" 4k monitor to see them, and I was still like WTF
Monday morning QBing is not going on here, they were out of line from the moment they let that flash bang go until the video stopped. They didn't want to use any other option available to them. Yea, I saw him pull the knives. Yea, I saw him turn around and start to either lie on the ground or put the knives down while facing away from the officers. The first shots went off as the man was crouched down facing away from the officers. Then AFTER they kill him they bean bag him for good measure? I guess you tenderize a roast before you cook it right? |
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Posted: 9/23/2016 3:52:04 PM EDT
[#14]
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I do not know anyone here in Abq (including fellow LEO's) who believe this was a 'good shoot'. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Trying to be as objective as I can for what it's worth: I predict the cop will be found not guilty and to not have violated department policy. "Normal" don't like this shoot because the cop likes killing. Not being objective: I hope the cop gets an honest psyche eval and retired from police work permanently. I don't want him anywhere around me or anyone else I care about. Yet, nearly to a person, the people posting who actually live in Albuquerque are fine with it. In fact, personally, there's at least one other crazy bum I wish APD had killed before he was able to murder someone I knew. I do not know anyone here in Abq (including fellow LEO's) who believe this was a 'good shoot'. Every Albuquerque LEO I have talked to about it says "Sure" there were some things that did not go perfect and some things that can be changed to make the process better but that the shoot was justifiable. |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 6:30:24 PM EDT
[#15]
Prosecutors had Noble walk the jury through the video of the moments leading up to the shooting frame by frame. He says Boyd never took a step towards the dog handler with his two pocket knives like the defense claims.
“I don’t believe Mr. Boyd was an immediate threat to the officers, because he didn’t make any movement to begin an attack on the officers,” said Noble. Instead, Noble says the homeless camper was turning to lay down on the ground when Officers Keith Sandy and Dominique Perez fired shots, killing him. In cross-examination, the defense brought up a case in California where they say Noble shot a suspect in the back. The defense then attempted to attack Noble’s credibility when it comes to dealing with the mentally ill. “You don’t have any expertise on Mr. Boyd’s psychological condition is that right,” asked Defense Attorney, Luis Robles. “No, I don’t,” said Noble. The defense then compared Irvine, California where Noble is from to Albuquerque saying Irvine always makes the “Safest Cities in America” list and that policing in a crime-filled city like Albuquerque is completely different. http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/prosecutor-nm-cops-intentionally-killed-homeless-man/ar-BBwlUHk?li=BBnb4R7 |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 6:31:35 PM EDT
[#16]
Defense attorneys for now-retired Keith Sandy and former Officer Dominique Perez told jurors that dispatchers warned officers to use extreme caution given that James Boyd had paranoid schizophrenia as well as an extensive criminal history of aggravated battery against law enforcement in New Mexico and elsewhere.
Segments of police video played by the defense showed an agitated Boyd threatening to kill officers numerous times that March day. The case is about a clash between the duty of police to protect the community and assessing the danger Boyd posed, defense attorney Luis Robles said. He said Boyd was asked to surrender his knives 33 times but didn’t. “He was shot with his knives in his hands,” Robles said. http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/prosecutor-nm-cops-intentionally-killed-homeless-man/ar-BBwlUHk?li=BBnb4R7 |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 6:33:35 PM EDT
[#17]
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Defense attorneys for now-retired Keith Sandy and former Officer Dominique Perez told jurors that dispatchers warned officers to use extreme caution given that James Boyd had paranoid schizophrenia as well as an extensive criminal history of aggravated battery against law enforcement in New Mexico and elsewhere. Segments of police video played by the defense showed an agitated Boyd threatening to kill officers numerous times that March day. The case is about a clash between the duty of police to protect the community and assessing the danger Boyd posed, defense attorney Luis Robles said. He said Boyd was asked to surrender his knives 33 times but didn’t. “He was shot with his knives in his hands,” Robles said. http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/prosecutor-nm-cops-intentionally-killed-homeless-man/ar-BBwlUHk?li=BBnb4R7 Like taking a knife to a lady officers face. |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 6:36:44 PM EDT
[#18]
LBUQUERQUE, N.M. (KRQE) – As the first week of the trial for two former Albuquerque police officer wraps up, another officer took the stand Friday saying he actually considered shooting homeless camper James Boyd that day.
The Albuquerque Police Department Open Space Officer who first encountered James Boyd says he felt unsafe, but one thing stopped him from pulling the trigger. “Is it fair to say that you were willing to risk your own safety to avoid the negative media attention that might follow you if you had shot?” asked the defense. “That’s very correct to say that…to um to prevent that, yeah,” said the open space officer. The open space officer told the jury he didn’t shoot because he was protecting his family from potential aftermath. Instead, he backed away from James Boyd and called backup. The trial resumes Monday. http://krqe.com/2016/09/23/lead-investigators-testimony-to-continue-in-sandy-perez-trial/ |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 6:44:51 PM EDT
[#19]
I saw a caption in one article and it said the AR-15 that was used in the shooting was not allowed to be admitted as evidence.
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Posted: 9/24/2016 6:47:28 PM EDT
[#20]
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I hope you brought a whole box because I don't believe you either unless everyone you know is some kind of cop hating gun nut version of Bum Lives Matter. Explain why one has to 'hate cops' in order for them believe it shouldn't have happened the way it did.... |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 6:48:44 PM EDT
[#21]
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Every Albuquerque LEO I have talked to about it says "Sure" there were some things that did not go perfect and some things that can be changed to make the process better but that the shoot was justifiable. Anything can be 'justified' by any one. Sandy and Perez effed up. |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 7:58:56 PM EDT
[#22]
I think that win, lose, or draw, the verdict will be based on the jury's view of the video and the accompanying statements. I don't see anybody's psychology carrying the day.
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Posted: 9/24/2016 8:06:49 PM EDT
[#23]
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Boo yah. Doubt they get a conviction though. He was armed when he was shot. Anyone has the right to defend themselves against thugs even if the thugs have badges. Those cops were hunting not patrolling. |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 8:34:14 PM EDT
[#24]
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Anyone has the right to defend themselves against thugs even if the thugs have badges. Those cops were hunting not patrolling. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Boo yah. Doubt they get a conviction though. He was armed when he was shot. Anyone has the right to defend themselves against thugs even if the thugs have badges. Those cops were hunting not patrolling. You do not have the right to defend yourself from a lawful arrest.
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Posted: 9/24/2016 8:37:30 PM EDT
[#25]
Bad shoot. Hope he gets what he deserves.
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Posted: 9/24/2016 8:58:27 PM EDT
[#26]
Is this the "Booyah" dude?
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Posted: 9/24/2016 9:03:54 PM EDT
[#27]
Those cops went in heavy for a bum. If he had an AR they'ed have to call the Delta Force.
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Posted: 9/24/2016 9:06:43 PM EDT
[#28]
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Those cops went in heavy for a bum. If he had an AR they'ed have to call the Delta Force. How do you usually arrest schizophrenic people with 2 knives? Based on your first hand experience, what's the best way? |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 9:09:26 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How do you usually arrest schizophrenic people with 2 knives? Based on your first hand experience, what's the best way? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Those cops went in heavy for a bum. If he had an AR they'ed have to call the Delta Force. How do you usually arrest schizophrenic people with 2 knives? Based on your first hand experience, what's the best way?
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Posted: 9/24/2016 9:12:58 PM EDT
[#30]
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How do you usually arrest schizophrenic people with 2 knives? Based on your first hand experience, what's the best way? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Those cops went in heavy for a bum. If he had an AR they'ed have to call the Delta Force. How do you usually arrest schizophrenic people with 2 knives? Based on your first hand experience, what's the best way? Based on the limited evidence available, you maintain a safe distance and shoot him in the back. |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 9:16:03 PM EDT
[#31]
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Based on the limited evidence available, you maintain a safe distance and shoot him in the back. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Those cops went in heavy for a bum. If he had an AR they'ed have to call the Delta Force. How do you usually arrest schizophrenic people with 2 knives? Based on your first hand experience, what's the best way? Based on the limited evidence available, you maintain a safe distance and shoot him in the back. 
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Posted: 9/24/2016 9:17:21 PM EDT
[#32]
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Anything can be 'justified' by any one. Sandy and Perez effed up. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Every Albuquerque LEO I have talked to about it says "Sure" there were some things that did not go perfect and some things that can be changed to make the process better but that the shoot was justifiable. Anything can be 'justified' by any one. Sandy and Perez effed up. The Open Space officer fucked up by not immediately engaging Boyd and thus putting A LOT more officers in harm's way. |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 9:18:04 PM EDT
[#33]
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How do you usually arrest schizophrenic people with 2 knives? Based on your first hand experience, what's the best way? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Those cops went in heavy for a bum. If he had an AR they'ed have to call the Delta Force. How do you usually arrest schizophrenic people with 2 knives? Based on your first hand experience, what's the best way? In your experience, how do you do it? |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 9:26:49 PM EDT
[#34]
Tag for results.
I believe I called this a justifiable shoot when we initially covered it. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 9:59:18 PM EDT
[#35]
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In your experience, how do you do it? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Those cops went in heavy for a bum. If he had an AR they'ed have to call the Delta Force. How do you usually arrest schizophrenic people with 2 knives? Based on your first hand experience, what's the best way? In your experience, how do you do it? Call the locals. |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 10:22:12 PM EDT
[#36]
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Is this the "Booyah" dude? Yes. |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 10:22:22 PM EDT
[#37]
I really don't get what the police had in mind with regards to an arrest that minimized the chances of harm to themselves much less the agitated schizophrenic.
You have an overweight not particularly agile looking schizophrenic nut armed with knives on top of a rugged hill with typical New Mexican ankle twisting gravel and plant life. He's threatening the police in the video and apparently has done so for sometime although I haven't seen any video if it exits, I'm just going by the statements made in this thread. He is in his own makeshift campground with his stuff scattered about and if there is any danger of concealed campground weapons it would most likely be in that area. It is also the area where he would have the most familiarity with clear paths if he were to make a charge either away from or towards the police. He probably knows the best path to take for a middle of the night piss without getting into prickly pear or cat's claws right off the bat. It appears that he agrees to leave and it appears that the police allow him to pick up his stuff. I figured normally, you don't want somebody rooting around in their stuff due to the possibility of producing a weapon, but he's schizophrenic and picking up to leave seems to both calm him and burden him in a way to make him more defenseless than his previous schizoid sermon on the mount stance. I figure they are going to have him walk towards the vehicles or at least get him off that hill where they have a better chance to deploy for taser use or at least won't have to fight up hill. But then they shoot that flash bang for no reason that I can determine. Now they have him back to defensive, raving, schizoid man on top of a hill and they have to go up after him. I don't get that move at all. I can't ever see any knives in the video. I am not saying they aren't in his hands at any particular time. I am saying the video quality on my laptop isn't very good. |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 10:50:10 PM EDT
[#38]
I will not comment on the legality of the shot but the deceased was a danger to everyone in this town.
I'm glad he is not wandering Central with his knives. |
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Posted: 9/24/2016 11:16:17 PM EDT
[#39]
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I will not comment on the legality of the shot but the deceased was a danger to everyone in this town. I'm glad he is not wandering Central with his knives. Different question. Lots of people need killing, starting with every rapist, robber, home burglar, et c. in the state pen. However, the fact that killing them resulted in a net benefit to society would not save their killer from the needle. |
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Posted: 9/25/2016 9:17:19 AM EDT
[#40]
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Explain why one has to 'hate cops' in order for them believe it shouldn't have happened the way it did.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I hope you brought a whole box because I don't believe you either unless everyone you know is some kind of cop hating gun nut version of Bum Lives Matter. Explain why one has to 'hate cops' in order for them believe it shouldn't have happened the way it did.... If you have a problem with firefighters getting stuff wet, it's safe to say you have a problem with firefighting. Shooting violent criminals brandishing knives is normal cop stuff. It's normal non-cop stuff. |
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Posted: 9/25/2016 9:19:43 AM EDT
[#41]
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Like taking a knife to a lady officers face. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Defense attorneys for now-retired Keith Sandy and former Officer Dominique Perez told jurors that dispatchers warned officers to use extreme caution given that James Boyd had paranoid schizophrenia as well as an extensive criminal history of aggravated battery against law enforcement in New Mexico and elsewhere. Segments of police video played by the defense showed an agitated Boyd threatening to kill officers numerous times that March day. The case is about a clash between the duty of police to protect the community and assessing the danger Boyd posed, defense attorney Luis Robles said. He said Boyd was asked to surrender his knives 33 times but didn’t. “He was shot with his knives in his hands,” Robles said. http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/prosecutor-nm-cops-intentionally-killed-homeless-man/ar-BBwlUHk?li=BBnb4R7 Like taking a knife to a lady officers face. He was just misunderstood. A victim of prejudice against outdoorsmen. I have it on good authority he was turning his life around and about to enroll at UNM. |
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Posted: 9/25/2016 9:26:49 AM EDT
[#42]
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Was it a good shoot? I'm saying NO. |
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Posted: 9/25/2016 9:35:47 AM EDT
[#43]
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He had 2 knives in his hands. Maybe people aren't watching the video. Seems to me that as soon as the guy turns his back to them and takes a step AWAY from them, the officer takes two shots with the AR.
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Posted: 9/25/2016 9:46:06 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seems to me that as soon as the guy turns his back to them and takes a step AWAY from them, the officer takes two shots with the AR. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: He had 2 knives in his hands. Maybe people aren't watching the video. Seems to me that as soon as the guy turns his back to them and takes a step AWAY from them, the officer takes two shots with the AR. 
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Posted: 9/25/2016 10:26:28 AM EDT
[#45]
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It doesn't have to have been the best solution in order to be legal. If it was legally an option, then it was legal. There's no 20/20 hindsight applied to what a reasonable LEO would have done given the information he had at the time of the action. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Good doesn't necessarily = legal shoot. I'd argue no shooting is good. It's actually a giant shit sandwich for all parties. It doesn't have to have been the best solution in order to be legal. If it was legally an option, then it was legal. There's no 20/20 hindsight applied to what a reasonable LEO would have done given the information he had at the time of the action. Like most things, application of MMQB to the legal process is something that everybody with no skin in the game wants and can't imagine how the second and third order effects might burn them. |
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Posted: 9/25/2016 4:11:39 PM EDT
[#46]
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Yes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Is this the "Booyah" dude? Yes. What a retard. |
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Posted: 9/25/2016 4:13:16 PM EDT
[#47]
I'm just here to watch the shit show.
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Posted: 9/25/2016 4:40:33 PM EDT
[#48]
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Is this the "Booyah" dude? Which is a K-9 handler most likely to say when his dog is engaged with a suspect. "Booyah" or "Pfui"? |
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Posted: 9/25/2016 4:50:37 PM EDT
[#49]
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Which is a K-9 handler most likely to say when his dog is engaged with a suspect. "Booyah" or "Pfui"? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Is this the "Booyah" dude? Which is a K-9 handler most likely to say when his dog is engaged with a suspect. "Booyah" or "Pfui"? Did any officer state that he said something or are you presuming that the K9 officer was the one of the four on scene that said something at that time? |
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Posted: 9/25/2016 4:55:54 PM EDT
[#50]
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Call the locals. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Those cops went in heavy for a bum. If he had an AR they'ed have to call the Delta Force. How do you usually arrest schizophrenic people with 2 knives? Based on your first hand experience, what's the best way? In your experience, how do you do it? Call the locals. LOL |
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