Go up a few posts, watch me videos, and tell me again how the saftey that is difficult to manipulate or a that the da/sa trigger is obsolete. Infact I prefer a da/sa trigger. It lets me get aggressive on the draw which I cant do with striker guns.

They are an incredibly reliable design and have fired them through high round count schools in swamps, jungles, and deserts around the world and besides the shitty mags in 03 that were only shitty because of a govt requirement that was fixed soon after Ive never had a chronic problem with one.

I've heard some retarded shit before, but that fist sentence of yours is in the running for top 5....

To me GEN 4 ergos= Bleh

Without reading all of the replies...

My first choice would be a Glock 17.  I don't own one, I don't currently have plans to buy one, but my "standard," if you will, would be the G17.  Not the 19, as the shorter grip frame puts the hump right where it doesn't need to be in my hand.

Out of your choices, I'd go with the H und K.  I've never handled one, and I generally don't -like- H&K, but I've not had a bad one yet, and I've heard a lot of good things about the VP9, enough to give it a good long look.  Second of your choices, would be the Sig; again, I haven't handled one and I'm not a fan of the brand, but I generally trust Sig to put out decent products.  I know nothing about the Walther.

That being said, my current striker-fired full size 9mm is a S&W M&P 9mm.  And my current alternate is a CZ 75 stainless, sharing space with a Browning Hi Power 9mm.  

This whole thing is WTF?



So you recommend a bunch of pistols you've never used and or wouldn't buy, but then you don't recommend the pistols you do have experience with and like...

I did this same exercise earlier this year and started with a P30 w/ light LEM. Had never shot one and went into it blind. Made sense on paper... hammer fired DAO system which was similar/familiar to a MSF pistol. Fucking hated it. Even converted it to a 4.1 CDA LEM (which was a yuuuuuuuuuuuge improvement) but it still wasn't for me. I ended up trading it back in and got a VP9.

The VP9 is a slick blaster but it's in no way as svelte as the P30. And as an ME I find the design overly complicated...bordering on Rube Goldberg. But it's been a sweet shooter for me so far and with no issue. It's worth a look.

If I could do it again, with all the time and money spent dicking around with both the P30 and VP9, I'd have just bought a P30 V3 and sent it to Greyguns. / done

Now I see why this was moved to GD.  Wow.  So much wow.

Please tell me this is a joke...

Honestly, you seem like a cool dude, so I'll try this nicely. Can you help me understand what that means? It sounds to me like you're getting on the trigger too soon and too hard.

I own glock, sig, Beretta, and HK....but my SHTF handgun is without question the cz p09.  The thing just shoot like a laser for me.  20.rds of 9 in the gun plus 19 rnd reloads.  And the ergonomic are just perfect for me.  

I don't even like Glocks and I agree

DA/SA is demonstrably inferior.  The hardest thing about shooting a pistol is manipulating the trigger while keeping the sights on target.  It is irrational to choose a pistol with two different trigger pulls.  Is it possible to train around the ridiculous DA/SA trigger system?  Yes, but there is no reason to do so if you have the choice of a better gun.  For any given pistol, I would rather have DAO,so at least the trigger is consistent.  

Carry whatever you want.  If the Beretta seems good enough for you then have at it.  

Lmao

Pure gold.

Glock is the most size/weight/capacity efficient of most modern firearms. I don't know of any that beat it in that. In the SHTF you're going to be carrying your sidearm everywhere and not using it much. You want it to be lightweight and not bulky. Glock provides that. Most other pistols in their size range are a bit larger in most dimensions, and/or weigh more.

Up until recently the design was probably also the most reliable and durable, although it seems like Glock has been putting out some lemons lately. If you get one that works, it should be fine.

The owner of Battlefield Las Vegas and his armorers claim Glock are the most reliable and longest lasting, most durable pistols on their range, with a significant number of them reaching 100k+ rounds. His armorer said that usually when a part breaks on a Glock, they don't know it until they take it off the line for cleaning or maintenance, as the guns run fine even with broken parts including trigger bars and even cracked slides, etc. Go look up the 100k+ round pistol thread from Battlefield Las Vegas, and check out the BFLV armorer interviews on youtube and TFB. There are probably more Glock torture tests and high round count reports on the internet than all other guns. They're also probably one of the most popular pistols at rental ranges, are very popular in competition, and in use by many trainers that see tons of rounds through them at classes etc. They have a really good overall track record proven by all of the above.

They're the easiest to detail strip and work on. They can operate even if major parts are broken. They're probably one of if the most rust and corrosion resistant firearms. Mags are stout, reliable, affordable, and backward compatible. 33 round mags are widely available and cheap.

Other pistols do some things better but none beat Glock in stuff that actually matters for SHTF. Ergos don't mean much when you're having an adrenaline dump as zombies are swarming you, and it doesn't seem to matter when dozens of competition shooters and trainers use them every day and do fine with them.

The PPQ, P320, and HK VP9 have nicer triggers and "handfeel" or ergos, but they're larger in all dimensions, heavier, and far more complex. Both HK and Walther recommend you DO NOT detail strip their guns. It's difficult to find info and experienced armorers on them. Both guns have complex innards with some questionable designs imo. I own both. The sear/trigger bar interface, trigger return spring, and hinged firing pin block on the HK VP9 all look susceptible to debris and durability issues. The slide lock design on the PPQ looks weak to me. The PPQ is difficult to even take apart and as far as I understand (having searched for info on detail stripping mine in the past), some of the internals come as units that aren't intended for disassembly. You're supposed to send the gun back to Walther instead of detail stripping the PPQ. AFAIK the same goes for some of the P320 and possibly the VP9 internals.

The VP9 and PPQ both have huge slide stops that can cause failures for the slides to lock back. I don't experience that with the PPQ, but I have trouble with the VP9 with my grip.

The lever style mag release is nice, but they are more susceptible to breakage if you drop them than a standard push button on a Glock. All three of these guns are new and lack large scale adoption or track records. Try to find parts for a Walther or VP9, and then try to take the things apart without studying one of the few armorer's vids on them. The P320 has had some trouble with things like trigger bars breaking, and is already on at least one revision with multiple parts upgrades. Sig has a sketchy track record with new releases. The 556r, 556xi, 556r xi, MPX, P250, and initial P320 all had issues during their first production runs. Most/all of them had to have AT LEAST a gen 2 within a year or so of release.

Most da/sa the SA is better then a striker fired trigger pull. For weight, stacking and  mushiness. I have shot many of both types working on a range

A few years back I sold all my glocks to go buy some nice 1911s and what not.



I still have the 1911s.



For those still reading, I own a couple glocks again.



Police trade in glock 22s are out the door under 400 bucks with old night sites and 3 mags.  I am still not sure what all I think about the 4th gen glocks, but it is what it is.



Since 9mm was mentioned and I already saw a post above for one of the gun ranges that had a glock 17 with an amazing amount of ammo through it with no issues, I will mention that a 17 is fine or get an aftermarket 9mm barrel for the 22.  Get one that is threaded for a can if you want a can.



I admit I kind of like some of the other fantastic plastic out there.



But when it comes to easy to work on, glock is there.



When it comes to market saturation, glock is there.



When it comes to holsters and stuff, even if you want a holster with retention while your glock has a light mounted on it, glock is there.



If you want to mess with those red dots or whatever on top of a hand gun, glock is there.  I think I prefer the idea of a 6 second mount or whatever that keeps the red dot off the slide itself.  I don't think I want the red dot moving forwards and backwards if I can avoid it.



Since glocks have been around so long, you can find used ones sometimes for awesome prices.



I am still not amused about the glock frame issue where they had some problems with the metal slide rail pieces cracking out of the lower frame, but everything I read on those said the thing went bang til someone took it apart to clean it and then discovered the problem.  So if you get a glock, get more than one.



If you are getting anything for shtf, get more than one.



As you can tell, I like the glock 22s and part of that is cause here and there I am finding new and fancy hollow point ammo for sale on the net at nice prices.  In the past I have been known to carry ball ammo cause really, carrying anything is a good start.



But I would be fibbing if I did not admit to having some of the 9mm mags for the glocks running around.  I might find a glock 17 cheap or I might buy a conversion barrel.  Or both.



for something where I just want to send rounds down range reliably, glock has market saturation in my opinion.  Yes there are others.  Yes there are more than just 9mm to consider.



But really, while I don't love the glock setup and don't feel its ergonomics are great, they function.  And for shtf or fighting, that is all I need.  For the thing to function.

Given that this is for some kind of doomsday type scenario, just get a Glock 17 and be done with it.

The world is swimming in Glocks so there will be ample parts and mags.  While I prefer CZ's, the last thing I'd want to be forced to do is scrounge for months trying to find some kinda bullshit replacement spring because there are exactly 18 people in my county with a gun like mine.

Glocks are easy.... Just get a Glock.


Also.... Why the hell would anyone be shooting a bunch of +p+??

Until you drop a mag on the feed lips.

Nevermind

Didn't take this thread long to devolve into complete, pants-on-head retardation.

I like my Beretta PX Storm in 9mm

It should say presentation, not draw. I think its decribed the best by Ernest Langdon. I think its this video but my wife is sleeping and I cant be sure. He has 2 more videos in this series That I think are worth watching as well.

I can always tell when people never really shoot. Yes  the beretta has 2 different pulls (derp derp) but only one reset. If you cant keep the sights aligned while shooting the first round then you have a problem with the fundamentals that shooting a striker fired gun will only mask.

You said demonstrably inferior. Then Demonstrate. I posted 2 videos demonstrating that the difference is wholly irrelevant. Im waiting for evidence that shows otherwise

Use the gun that you shoot the best with, ammo my be hard to find.

Glock 17M

People generally want their slides to stay on when they're not cleaning their pistol.

Get a gen 3 Glock 17 then send it off for a grip reduction. Add a Zev race connecter. The reliability of factory mags are second to none.

Edit: taking the finger grooves off and undercut on the trigger guard made it much more ergonomic.

I have Glocks and all of them have work done to them to correct ergonomics for me with that said:

During shtf there are some things to consider.

Reliability, availability, maintenance.

Reliability: don't need to beat this horse

Availability: common use of the firearm by others and agencies. Ammo, 9mm is the most widely use, during the 2013 scare I alway had 9mm on the shelf, can't say the same about 40 or 45. Mags, there are some really good pistols out there but if the ability to buy is taken away i.e. No internet or stores carry the product. Then you have to use what you can scavenge or pick up.

Maintenance: you may not have the luxury of cleaning and lubing your firearm or again have to use what you can on the fly.  Need a gun that is simple and forgiving in terms of maintenance.

Sorry but imo Glock 19 is the way.

Crazy talk!



GD assures me that I'll be dead if I don't have a G19.



 

If being nearly over run by the NVA is not SHTF, I don't know what is?

However I do own 1911s and a G19.

Ill be the crazy guy to say that I trust my life to my Canik, I love that cheap Turkish bastard gun so much

The Brits use it.

I am not going to respond to the suggestion that I don't shoot.  Posting a summary of my training and experience would violate persec, but suffice it to say, I have done plenty of shooting.  I actually shot with Ernie Langdon one time at a big IDPA match.  I think at the time he made that video he was being paid to promote DA/SA pistols.  I think he was working for Sig, but it has been a few years.

If you look carefully at my post, I said that it is possible to train around the DA/SA trigger.  There are people who can shoot a DA/SA gun very well.  That does not mean the "difference is irrelevant."  It is an obstacle to overcome.  Ernie is an excellent example of someone who has trained around a poorly designed gun.  You might be too.  I don't know.

I have taught a lot of people to shoot, both in LE and in the private sector.  Sometimes we were stuck with DA/SA guns because that's what the student had to use.  Having to learn two different trigger pulls plus learning to use a decocker and/or safety under stress adds a bunch of extra stuff to the training.  There is no reason for such unnecessary complexity if you have a choice of gun. Students uniformly do better with striker-fired guns, because they have consistent triggers and they are much simpler to operate.

I spent too much money to figure this out. Where were you 3 years ago!?!

Glock 17
S&W M&P

between these two from a life cycle, parts, ease of maintenance, availability of magazines

these two win every time

A Beretta 92/M9  is also a good choice because there are a lot of parts inventory within military units.

Obvious answer, Glock 17

Grew up on 1911s and my 1911s get way more range time than my plastic fantastics. That said if I had to abandon my place and could only take one handgun I would grab the G22 on top of the pile of G22s that I have. And my favorite Glock is my Boston PD trade in 2nd Gen G19. But G22 is ubiquitous and probably my smartest choice. My daily carry is either a Colt 1911 and M442 or a G19/22 and G43.

QFT.

Except get a 34 since it's more betterer than a 17.

Without a doubt strikers are simpler to operate. I work pt at a range and get asked all the time what I recommend for self defense. Unless the individual is willing to take extra time to learn da/sa I almost always recommend strikers.

That all being said, doesn't make da/sa guns bad. Just like with a manual transmission that is harder to learn for some but has a lot of benefits if you take the time to learn.

One benefit, as I stated, alows me to aggressively get on target and allows for a more accurate and consistent first shot. Ive never understood why people get thrown for a bender with 2 different trigger pulls. Except that most people who shoot da/sa guns never shoot da. They stand and shoot sa all day long cause its easy. I can draw, unsafe and shoot da/sa as fast as draw and shoot a glock anyone can if they put the  time in. Im still waiting for evidence that it is demontratibly worse than strikers.

Another benefit if when reholstering while.carrying aiwb. Have my thumb on the hammer is very comforting. I carry my g19 in a RCS vanguard 2 so remove it and clip it on the gun before putting the gun inside ny pants

I apologise for making the assumption you dont shoot da/sa but your arguments against them are very. If you dont feel comfortable with one thats fine but making comments like "retarded", "they aren't known for their reliability", or "their grip is huge by any standard" are all 13'er style comments

I have all striker guns now but that's crazy. Look at USPSA, a real test of accuracy and speed, and it's all steel DA/SA guns that dominate because they are the easiest to shoot fast and accurately. It's not that hard to get used to the da first shot.

Not striker fired but I'm partial to the CZ P09. Polymer frame and high capacity. I prefer the trigger to any of the striker-fired pistols I've used.

Awfully big for a sidearm but fun to shoot.

Also, there is something about doing long strings of rapid fire with a gun that doesn't have a tilting barrel. I can shoot berettas so much faster than any thing else and the barrel hardly rises while all my shots are exactly where I want them.

For all those reasons, not just out if Marine Corps nostalgia, are why I keep on with berettas.

The only true inferiority of da/sa is it doesn't hide bad mechanics as well as a short travel sao or striker gun. If your mechanics aren't good a long double action pull will do you no favors on hiding that, same with a revolver. Less introduced human error/interaction, less for the person to screw up.

Gyrojet.....hands down. They are emp proof

As a "fighting/carry gun," I hate the Beretta's bulk, the safety position/configuration/design (and the slide in general), and the non-durability of the locking block.

As a pure-shooting gun, though, I agree- it is fantastic.  I did really well with it in action pistol shoots, and I actually won my first bulls-eye center-fire competition with a 92FS (that I no longer own).