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Posted: 8/28/2016 10:35:59 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They could defeat us just by surrending POWs to us. How many could we house, feed and give medical care to. Wasn't that a Russian joke about the PLA? |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 10:43:05 AM EDT
[#2]
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Something even more interesting than Chinese and even Nork labor is how many old collective farms in the far flung east are now owned by Chinese farmers. The Russian population is rapidly shrinking and Chinese population rapidly growing. No Russians want to stay there let alone farm it and tne Chinese would never be able to have such a huge amount of land in China. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Well, then maybe start by defining your purposes? Because, from where I sit, getting those millions to the Tarim Basin might be more than "a short drive." Getting those millions to Arunachal Pradesh, or even Aksai Chin, would be more than a "short drive." It's a big country, and there's a lot more going on than just what's in the U.S. press and the fixation with sea power due to U.S. interests. Are you saying they may make a play for Siberia? That's a whole 'nother game, up that way. Russia is already using Chinese migrant labor to keep many border regions functioning. I think it's laughable that people are dismissing troop movement within Asia. Mobilization within ones own country was pretty much the driving focus of European military plans through the 19th century, and concerns about the risks of a delay helped speak WWI. Bit, now some OP who seems to be waiting for a poster to tell him what he thinks he already knows is telling me it's irrelevant. Who needs to move forces in Asia? They're already in Asia? Or should I say, "their already in Asia?" Something even more interesting than Chinese and even Nork labor is how many old collective farms in the far flung east are now owned by Chinese farmers. The Russian population is rapidly shrinking and Chinese population rapidly growing. No Russians want to stay there let alone farm it and tne Chinese would never be able to have such a huge amount of land in China. It's been a couple,of years since I've paid attention to that area, but Russia had been had been engaged in a massive propaganda campaign against Chinese merchandise - much of it illegally smuggled in. They're scared. This illustrates the population density disparity: 
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Posted: 8/28/2016 10:49:23 AM EDT
[#3]
In general the Chinese military philosophy has leaned towards "more more more" as opposed to "better",... recently that has been changing a bit but it's still heavily weighted towards more.
Their biggest issue with any major conflict right now will be logisitics,... almost any major army they try to field right now risks collapsing under it's weight withing a couple weeks. Short term solutions such as commandeering vehicles and foraging will screw them over long term. They need to seriously shift their focus to "more than"(their opponent) instead of "more more more" if they want a chance at victory in a real conflict. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 11:54:24 AM EDT
[#4]
I trained with a handful of Chinese junior Officers at a rifle range. To the man, they were terrible shots.
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Posted: 8/28/2016 11:58:45 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's been a couple,of years since I've paid attention to that area, but Russia had been had been engaged in a massive propaganda campaign against Chinese merchandise - much of it illegally smuggled in. They're scared. This illustrates the population density disparity: http://sustain.oia.hokudai.ac.jp/huisd/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/photo462.gif Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's been a couple,of years since I've paid attention to that area, but Russia had been had been engaged in a massive propaganda campaign against Chinese merchandise - much of it illegally smuggled in. They're scared. This illustrates the population density disparity: http://sustain.oia.hokudai.ac.jp/huisd/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/photo462.gif http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/world/asia/russia-china-farmers.html Here in the Far East, however, local officials and many residents, while grumbling that they cannot keep up with Chinese work habits, tend to see China and its vast pool of industrious labor as the best hope of developing impoverished regions that often feel neglected by Moscow.
“Our own people have been spoiled,” said Lyudmilla Voron, the head of the local council for the district covering Opytnoe Pole and four other villages in the Jewish Autonomous Region, an area in Russia next to the Chinese province of Heilongjiang. “The men drink too much and don’t want to work.” |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 11:59:50 AM EDT
[#6]
A lot of our best technology got "transferred" to communist states via our so called allies...
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Posted: 8/28/2016 12:05:26 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Eh, that Army cant fight for shit if they have no goddamn food Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It is not how good... it is how large of a standing "Army" they can field. That is the concern! Eh, that Army cant fight for shit if they have no goddamn food That army can subsist on 1/3rd the calories of almost every western army. And still make that death charge when ordered, and keep coming until the last magazine, ammo belt, and grenade are expended. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 12:24:00 PM EDT
[#8]
I'm not military or know anybody in sensitive intelligence, but I do know the Chinese made a microcomputer that sits in my pocket. It is a cheap phone that has ran absolutely flawlessly for two years....Walmart for less than $100. I've not seen anything comparable that was made in the US. This is just a mere export item. Doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure they they have their technological shit together in reserve for military applications. We can even keep patrol boats running near a fleet in the Persian Gulf or have enough discipline/resolve to blow Iranian sand fleas out of the water. They may have built it but I am betting they didn't design it. Most of the electronics are designed by others and the manufacturing is outsourced to china. Most of what they claim as their own is actually copied or stolen designs. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 12:33:14 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That army can subsist on 1/3rd the calories of almost every western army. And still make that death charge when ordered, and keep coming until the last magazine, ammo belt, and grenade are expended. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It is not how good... it is how large of a standing "Army" they can field. That is the concern! Eh, that Army cant fight for shit if they have no goddamn food That army can subsist on 1/3rd the calories of almost every western army. And still make that death charge when ordered, and keep coming until the last magazine, ammo belt, and grenade are expended. I'm laughing that you think the Chinese teenager of 2016 and beyond is the Eighth Route Army 
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Posted: 8/28/2016 12:46:36 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
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It's been a couple,of years since I've paid attention to that area, but Russia had been had been engaged in a massive propaganda campaign against Chinese merchandise - much of it illegally smuggled in. They're scared. This illustrates the population density disparity: http://sustain.oia.hokudai.ac.jp/huisd/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/photo462.gif http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/world/asia/russia-china-farmers.html Here in the Far East, however, local officials and many residents, while grumbling that they cannot keep up with Chinese work habits, tend to see China and its vast pool of industrious labor as the best hope of developing impoverished regions that often feel neglected by Moscow.
“Our own people have been spoiled,” said Lyudmilla Voron, the head of the local council for the district covering Opytnoe Pole and four other villages in the Jewish Autonomous Region, an area in Russia next to the Chinese province of Heilongjiang. “The men drink too much and don’t want to work.” I wonder how many actual Jews live out that way? But seriously, must be one hell of a desolate place. China is there one real route to civilization. I can understand the dynamics, and why o would be such a concern for Moscow. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 12:49:47 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder how many actual Jews live out that way? But seriously, must be one hell of a desolate place. China is there one real route to civilization. I can understand the dynamics, and why o would be such a concern for Moscow. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It's been a couple,of years since I've paid attention to that area, but Russia had been had been engaged in a massive propaganda campaign against Chinese merchandise - much of it illegally smuggled in. They're scared. This illustrates the population density disparity: http://sustain.oia.hokudai.ac.jp/huisd/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/photo462.gif http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/world/asia/russia-china-farmers.html Here in the Far East, however, local officials and many residents, while grumbling that they cannot keep up with Chinese work habits, tend to see China and its vast pool of industrious labor as the best hope of developing impoverished regions that often feel neglected by Moscow.
“Our own people have been spoiled,” said Lyudmilla Voron, the head of the local council for the district covering Opytnoe Pole and four other villages in the Jewish Autonomous Region, an area in Russia next to the Chinese province of Heilongjiang. “The men drink too much and don’t want to work.” I wonder how many actual Jews live out that way? But seriously, must be one hell of a desolate place. China is there one real route to civilization. I can understand the dynamics, and why o would be such a concern for Moscow. Can they vote themselves part of China, a la Crimea? 
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Posted: 8/28/2016 12:55:46 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can they vote themselves part of China, a la Crimea? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It's been a couple,of years since I've paid attention to that area, but Russia had been had been engaged in a massive propaganda campaign against Chinese merchandise - much of it illegally smuggled in. They're scared. This illustrates the population density disparity: http://sustain.oia.hokudai.ac.jp/huisd/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/photo462.gif http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/world/asia/russia-china-farmers.html Here in the Far East, however, local officials and many residents, while grumbling that they cannot keep up with Chinese work habits, tend to see China and its vast pool of industrious labor as the best hope of developing impoverished regions that often feel neglected by Moscow.
“Our own people have been spoiled,” said Lyudmilla Voron, the head of the local council for the district covering Opytnoe Pole and four other villages in the Jewish Autonomous Region, an area in Russia next to the Chinese province of Heilongjiang. “The men drink too much and don’t want to work.” I wonder how many actual Jews live out that way? But seriously, must be one hell of a desolate place. China is there one real route to civilization. I can understand the dynamics, and why o would be such a concern for Moscow. Can they vote themselves part of China, a la Crimea? Even Moscow has to know that the "precedent" of Crimea is a very, very dangerous one, and a return to 19th century Realpolitik. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 12:59:31 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Their conventional forces aren't for fighting the US. They've got ICBMs for that. It's not like they've got to worry about resisting a US invasion of Asia. The real question is how do those conventional forces compare to the other regional powers, if there really is such a thing, and can the Chinese military intimidate them into doing what they're told to do. So far no one seems ready to budge on who exactly gets to control the South China Sea. I, for one, am eagerly awaiting the next presidents approach to that ball of wax. I'm sure it'll be hopelessly ineffective either way. Yes, their forces have a major focus on fighting us over Taiwan. That isn't an infantry focus, but it's where they spend a lot of time and money. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 1:00:51 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I trained with a handful of Chinese junior Officers at a rifle range. To the man, they were terrible shots. Loyalty to the party makes an officer, not marksmanship. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 1:00:55 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, their forces have a major focus on fighting us over Taiwan. That isn't an infantry focus, but it's where they spend a lot of time and money. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Their conventional forces aren't for fighting the US. They've got ICBMs for that. It's not like they've got to worry about resisting a US invasion of Asia. The real question is how do those conventional forces compare to the other regional powers, if there really is such a thing, and can the Chinese military intimidate them into doing what they're told to do. So far no one seems ready to budge on who exactly gets to control the South China Sea. I, for one, am eagerly awaiting the next presidents approach to that ball of wax. I'm sure it'll be hopelessly ineffective either way. Yes, their forces have a major focus on fighting us over Taiwan. That isn't an infantry focus, but it's where they spend a lot of time and money. Engineering focus. They're going to reconnect Taiwan to the mainland by filling in the strait.
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Posted: 8/28/2016 1:09:37 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder how many actual Jews live out that way? But seriously, must be one hell of a desolate place. China is there one real route to civilization. I can understand the dynamics, and why o would be such a concern for Moscow. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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It's been a couple,of years since I've paid attention to that area, but Russia had been had been engaged in a massive propaganda campaign against Chinese merchandise - much of it illegally smuggled in. They're scared. This illustrates the population density disparity: http://sustain.oia.hokudai.ac.jp/huisd/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/photo462.gif http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/world/asia/russia-china-farmers.html Here in the Far East, however, local officials and many residents, while grumbling that they cannot keep up with Chinese work habits, tend to see China and its vast pool of industrious labor as the best hope of developing impoverished regions that often feel neglected by Moscow.
“Our own people have been spoiled,” said Lyudmilla Voron, the head of the local council for the district covering Opytnoe Pole and four other villages in the Jewish Autonomous Region, an area in Russia next to the Chinese province of Heilongjiang. “The men drink too much and don’t want to work.” I wonder how many actual Jews live out that way? But seriously, must be one hell of a desolate place. China is there one real route to civilization. I can understand the dynamics, and why o would be such a concern for Moscow. Very few but it was only in the tens of thousands at its peak.Almost all that could afford to went to Israel in the 90s,most of those few who are left are of Yiddish descent but not actually practicing Jews. That makes sense when you simply look at demographics:there being little choice but to intermarry with ethnic Russians/Ukrainians who were also sent went out there. Funny trivia: they had the rainbow flag before it was gay 
Russia is in a bit of a hard spot with the Chinese there:either allow them to effectively colonize or simply let it die off. It has plenty of potential but without people to perform farm and forestry work,what good is it? I think this is why Russia has halted work on the bridge across the Amur as China will ultimately reap the lion's share of benefits as if the economy does improve to the point of needing more workers,they will certainly be Chinese rather than Russian. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 1:37:07 PM EDT
[#17]
They have so many they will never run out of people.
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Posted: 8/28/2016 1:50:34 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I spent some time around them while training overseas. The one thing I can say about them is that they're disciplined. I wouldn't underestimate them. The problem isn't discipline or even weapons. The problem is their leadership. China is still a Communist state, and Communist states promote people for their loyalty to the state rather than leadership or initiative. They typical Chinese infantry officer probably knows more about Marxist-Leninist doctrine than he does infantry tactics or assaulting a fixed position. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 1:56:05 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That army can subsist on 1/3rd the calories of almost every western army. And still make that death charge when ordered, and keep coming until the last magazine, ammo belt, and grenade are expended. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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It is not how good... it is how large of a standing "Army" they can field. That is the concern! Eh, that Army cant fight for shit if they have no goddamn food That army can subsist on 1/3rd the calories of almost every western army. And still make that death charge when ordered, and keep coming until the last magazine, ammo belt, and grenade are expended. So you are saying a generation of extremely pampered only children who have lead comfy lives with modern amenities are going to match those who grew up poor impoverished and under a brutal Japanese occupation then equally brutal civil war? I'm going to say no. On top of that China has a real problem with a rapidly aging demographic. That's why they ended the one child policy last year they aren't the human wave machine like they where many decades ago, just like the ruskies don't have the population to behave militarily like they did in WWII either. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 1:59:24 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
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It's been a couple,of years since I've paid attention to that area, but Russia had been had been engaged in a massive propaganda campaign against Chinese merchandise - much of it illegally smuggled in. They're scared. This illustrates the population density disparity: http://sustain.oia.hokudai.ac.jp/huisd/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/photo462.gif http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/world/asia/russia-china-farmers.html Here in the Far East, however, local officials and many residents, while grumbling that they cannot keep up with Chinese work habits, tend to see China and its vast pool of industrious labor as the best hope of developing impoverished regions that often feel neglected by Moscow.
“Our own people have been spoiled,” said Lyudmilla Voron, the head of the local council for the district covering Opytnoe Pole and four other villages in the Jewish Autonomous Region, an area in Russia next to the Chinese province of Heilongjiang. “The men drink too much and don’t want to work.” Wouldn't that be great if Russia got a taste of its own medicine. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 3:07:57 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They subscribe to the Soviet "throw human meat at the enemy until they run out of ammo, then overrun them" tactics. There's close to 1.4 billion of them. They could lose the population of the USA several times over and not bat an eye. 
And yet their one child policy made them bat an eye. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 3:11:40 PM EDT
[#22]
2.3 Million troops good....and that's without a wartime conscription happening.
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Posted: 8/28/2016 3:22:32 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So you are saying a generation of extremely pampered only children who have lead comfy lives with modern amenities are going to match those who grew up poor impoverished and under a brutal Japanese occupation then equally brutal civil war? I'm going to say no. On top of that China has a real problem with a rapidly aging demographic. That's why they ended the one child policy last year they aren't the human wave machine like they where many decades ago, just like the ruskies don't have the population to behave militarily like they did in WWII either. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It is not how good... it is how large of a standing "Army" they can field. That is the concern! Eh, that Army cant fight for shit if they have no goddamn food That army can subsist on 1/3rd the calories of almost every western army. And still make that death charge when ordered, and keep coming until the last magazine, ammo belt, and grenade are expended. So you are saying a generation of extremely pampered only children who have lead comfy lives with modern amenities are going to match those who grew up poor impoverished and under a brutal Japanese occupation then equally brutal civil war? I'm going to say no. On top of that China has a real problem with a rapidly aging demographic. That's why they ended the one child policy last year they aren't the human wave machine like they where many decades ago, just like the ruskies don't have the population to behave militarily like they did in WWII either. exactly. The cultural revolution has long since passed, and the brainwashed moaists of that period are pretty much dead or have since changed their tune. The communist party worries more about keeping things under control, a very bloody war would only cause unrest and maybe civil war. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 3:23:17 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Engineering focus. They're going to reconnect Taiwan to the mainland by filling in the strait. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Their conventional forces aren't for fighting the US. They've got ICBMs for that. It's not like they've got to worry about resisting a US invasion of Asia. The real question is how do those conventional forces compare to the other regional powers, if there really is such a thing, and can the Chinese military intimidate them into doing what they're told to do. So far no one seems ready to budge on who exactly gets to control the South China Sea. I, for one, am eagerly awaiting the next presidents approach to that ball of wax. I'm sure it'll be hopelessly ineffective either way. Yes, their forces have a major focus on fighting us over Taiwan. That isn't an infantry focus, but it's where they spend a lot of time and money. Engineering focus. They're going to reconnect Taiwan to the mainland by filling in the strait. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 3:30:39 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wouldn't that be great if Russia got a taste of its own medicine. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It's been a couple,of years since I've paid attention to that area, but Russia had been had been engaged in a massive propaganda campaign against Chinese merchandise - much of it illegally smuggled in. They're scared. This illustrates the population density disparity: http://sustain.oia.hokudai.ac.jp/huisd/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/photo462.gif http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/world/asia/russia-china-farmers.html Here in the Far East, however, local officials and many residents, while grumbling that they cannot keep up with Chinese work habits, tend to see China and its vast pool of industrious labor as the best hope of developing impoverished regions that often feel neglected by Moscow.
“Our own people have been spoiled,” said Lyudmilla Voron, the head of the local council for the district covering Opytnoe Pole and four other villages in the Jewish Autonomous Region, an area in Russia next to the Chinese province of Heilongjiang. “The men drink too much and don’t want to work.” Wouldn't that be great if Russia got a taste of its own medicine. Xi wants a strategic partnership with Putin but ultimately think China will have defacto possession of a good bit of the Russian far east.It's not just demographics,it's economics.Russia can't spend enough to keep people there when Moscow and Saint Petersburg beckon as places with many times higher wages and a hugely different standard of living. This has long been a problem with the Russian empire and to a large extent,Soviet migration policies made it worse by sending lots of people a long friggin way from anywhere. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 3:31:20 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The problem isn't discipline or even weapons. The problem is their leadership. China is still a Communist state, and Communist states promote people for their loyalty to the state rather than leadership or initiative. They typical Chinese infantry officer probably knows more about Marxist-Leninist doctrine than he does infantry tactics or assaulting a fixed position. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I spent some time around them while training overseas. The one thing I can say about them is that they're disciplined. I wouldn't underestimate them. The problem isn't discipline or even weapons. The problem is their leadership. China is still a Communist state, and Communist states promote people for their loyalty to the state rather than leadership or initiative. They typical Chinese infantry officer probably knows more about Marxist-Leninist doctrine than he does infantry tactics or assaulting a fixed position. Kind of like how the average American officer probably knows more about the SHARP and EO programs than their actual responsibilities?
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Posted: 8/28/2016 3:42:36 PM EDT
[#27]
I would think that any conflict between the U.S. and China would be a smaller regional conflict or skirmish. Both countries have nukes and would probably use them before taking any major losses on their mainlands.
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Posted: 8/28/2016 3:48:39 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seriously though Asian armies rarely have dudes that will surrender, I'm only worried about having enough ammo. It's going to suck having to club starving NORK and Chinese troops to death with an E tool. Then again it would be cool as shit to be talked about as that dude that killed 87 dudes with an E tool. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They could defeat us just by surrending POWs to us. How many could we house, feed and give medical care to. What POW's? I ain't see no body surrendering did you? "Rook, I washed for supper" Seriously though Asian armies rarely have dudes that will surrender, I'm only worried about having enough ammo. It's going to suck having to club starving NORK and Chinese troops to death with an E tool. Then again it would be cool as shit to be talked about as that dude that killed 87 dudes with an E tool. https://youtu.be/3V0gv0SASjg |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 3:53:00 PM EDT
[#29]
They will just cripple the EBT system and activate all the sleeper cells currently employed by your local Chinese restaurant to sow anarchy if they ever have to fight us...
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Posted: 8/28/2016 3:53:09 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not 1979, either. Vietnam had a military that had much experience in a not very long before war and even then I have not doubt if China had really too, they could have took all of Vietnam. In the 36 years since then we've gave them a few trillion dollars and a lot of stolen tech to upgrade their military. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Hell, didn't their fellow commie Vietnamese bloody their nose back in 1979 or so? It's not 1979, either. Vietnam had a military that had much experience in a not very long before war and even then I have not doubt if China had really too, they could have took all of Vietnam. In the 36 years since then we've gave them a few trillion dollars and a lot of stolen tech to upgrade their military. Vietnam was battle hardened, and had top notch gear from Russia and China. I think they were outfitted with better gear from China than China was themselves. Vietnam didn't overwhelm them in some head to head battle either, they went Fabian, had the Chinese give chase and eat losses along the way. China could have taken Vietnam, it would have been a massive clusterfuck and they probably would have lost a massive chunk of China to the USSR in the process. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 3:55:06 PM EDT
[#31]
I have no doubt they will 'fake it 'till they make it'
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Posted: 8/28/2016 3:57:35 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Vietnam was battle hardened, and had top notch gear from Russia and China. I think they were outfitted with better gear from China than China was themselves. Vietnam didn't overwhelm them in some head to head battle either, they went Fabian, had the Chinese give chase and eat losses along the way. China could have taken Vietnam, it would have been a massive clusterfuck and they probably would have lost a massive chunk of China to the USSR in the process. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Hell, didn't their fellow commie Vietnamese bloody their nose back in 1979 or so? It's not 1979, either. Vietnam had a military that had much experience in a not very long before war and even then I have not doubt if China had really too, they could have took all of Vietnam. In the 36 years since then we've gave them a few trillion dollars and a lot of stolen tech to upgrade their military. Vietnam was battle hardened, and had top notch gear from Russia and China. I think they were outfitted with better gear from China than China was themselves. Vietnam didn't overwhelm them in some head to head battle either, they went Fabian, had the Chinese give chase and eat losses along the way. China could have taken Vietnam, it would have been a massive clusterfuck and they probably would have lost a massive chunk of China to the USSR in the process. |
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