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Posted: 8/9/2016 10:06:08 PM EDT
If the mods feel this post should be moved to GD then please do so, but it does address technical details about the construction of 7N6 ammunition and includes photos of the ammunition dissected by the ATF.

On April 7, 2014 the ATF issued a Special Advisory stating 5.45x39 7N6 ammunition was not importable because samples it examined were found to contain a steel core, could be used in a commercially available handgun, and was therefore “armor piercing.”  The ATF Special Advisory claims the ATF received a request from the CBP to conduct a test, examination and classification of Russian-made 7N6 5.45x39 ammunition for purposes of determining whether it is considered “armor piercing ammunition."

Last year TheTruthAboutGuns.com ran a story titled CBP: We Never Asked the ATF to Reclassify 7N6 5.45×39 Ammo.  The story claims a FOIA request was filed with the CBP for a copy of the request they made to the ATF to test the ammunition.  The response from CBP was that they were unable to find any record of such a request being made.  

I was unable to find mention of anyone making a FOIA request directly to the ATF for a copy of the request they allegedly received from the CBP, so I filed one.  After not getting a response to my first request I sent a letter requesting they acknowledge receiving my FOIA request, which they did.  Shorty thereafter I received a response to my original FOIA request.  The ATF was unable to provide a copy of any requests from the CBP.  The only request came from an ATF agent in the Norfolk Field Office.  The agent does not state anyone with CBP made a request to him, nor does he state he was given samples of ammunition by anyone with CBP.  It is quite possible he made the request on his own initiative.

The ATF refused to name the agent stating it "would be a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy."  I will be appealing this issue as the law the ATF cites only protects "personnel and medical files and similar files the disclosure of which would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy."  The name of an agent acting in his official capacity should not be protected from disclosure.

Here is the response to my FOIA request which includes the results of the examination of the 7N6 ammunition and photographs.













Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:08:11 PM EDT
[#1]
If we can get Trump in there, I have a feeling that the ATF is going to suffer massive founding cuts.

Many here will vote Clinton/Other.

Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:08:46 PM EDT
[#2]
so there was no actual testing other than some really shitty work with pliers . Zero science involved. I know someone who is going to love this .
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:10:40 PM EDT
[#3]
Not really surprised at all.
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:11:21 PM EDT
[#4]
Possible stupid question, but what does 'CBP' stand for? And what does this ultimately mean?
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:12:05 PM EDT
[#5]
"BS" is par for the course with these Asshats
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:12:32 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Possible stupid question, but what does 'CBP' stand for? And what does this ultimately mean?
View Quote

Customs and Border Patrol.
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:12:54 PM EDT
[#7]

ATF is a joke.  Where is this 5.45 handgun anyway?  My understanding was it was Polish and never imported.
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:13:45 PM EDT
[#8]
Where did the 2.9 million rounds of ammunition go that customs was holding?
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:14:28 PM EDT
[#9]
I like how they conveniently ignore the definition of prohibited ammunition where is it states it is 'designed  and intended to be used in a handgun".







5.45 was never designed nor intended to be a handgun round.

























 
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:14:52 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Customs and Border Patrol.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Possible stupid question, but what does 'CBP' stand for? And what does this ultimately mean?

Customs and Border Patrol.


The successor to the US Customs Service, formerly under Treasury, until DHS was formed.

This means the ability to import this ammo - or not.

<---licensed customs broker
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:15:24 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
so there was no actual testing other than some really shitty work with pliers . Zero science involved. I know someone who is going to love this .
View Quote


PWA filed a lawsuit immediately after it was banned. Whatever happened to it?
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:16:04 PM EDT
[#12]
Assholes, I miss the cheap 5.45
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:16:53 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Possible stupid question, but what does 'CBP' stand for? And what does this ultimately mean?
View Quote




This means the ATF lied and stopped importation of ammunition because of a guy with pliers and a magnet
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:17:37 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If we can get Trump in there, I have a feeling that the ATF is going to suffer massive founding cuts.

Many here will vote Clinton/Other.

View Quote

I remember I posted on a video when Trump stated he was running that he will get there and remove all these stupid ass laws. Everyone bitched that there was no way he would ever get the Nom. Oddly since he got it there have been no more posts to the one I started.
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:18:02 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If we can get Trump in there, I have a feeling that the ATF is going to suffer massive founding cuts.

Many here will vote Clinton/Other.

View Quote



No, most members here won't.
You guys really need to stop with this bullshit.
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:19:32 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
so there was no actual testing other than some really shitty work with pliers . Zero science involved. I know someone who is going to love this .
View Quote

Calling NOLO.  NOLO, you are needed again...
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:20:32 PM EDT
[#17]
I think............

It's FBHO's fault


Aloha, Mark
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:20:54 PM EDT
[#18]
Shit man this is pretty huge
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:21:09 PM EDT
[#19]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If we can get Trump in there, I have a feeling that the ATF is going to suffer massive founding cuts.

Many here will vote Clinton/Other.

[img]http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/icon_smile_dissapprove.gif
View Quote


You guys are operating heavily on feelings. He's never said anything about cutting BATFE funding. He's got my vote and he's the most pro-gun candidate, but some of you guys really live in a fantasy world thinking MG amnesty, dirt cheap imports, and so on.
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:22:05 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Possible stupid question, but what does 'CBP' stand for? And what does this ultimately mean?
View Quote



Customs and Border Protection.
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:24:09 PM EDT
[#21]
FATF
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:26:48 PM EDT
[#22]

Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:27:58 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

ATF is a joke.  Where is this 5.45 handgun anyway?  My understanding was it was Polish and never imported.
View Quote

Also in order for it to be imported, they had to ask permission from guess who? Also I don't think they were ever imported were they?
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:28:42 PM EDT
[#24]
I'm a little behind on the ban of the 7N6 round.
Just what does it do different that any rifle ammo in the last 100 years  does that warrants a ban?
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:29:05 PM EDT
[#25]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I like how they conveniently ignore the definition of prohibited ammunition where is it states it is 'designed  and intended to be used in a handgun".



5.45 was never designed nor intended to be a handgun round.
 
View Quote




that's section (ii).  they are basing the decision on section (i)



 
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:30:17 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
If the mods feel this post should be moved to GD then please do so, but it does address technical details about the construction of 7N6 ammunition and includes photos of the ammunition dissected by the ATF.

On April 7, 2014 the ATF issued a Special Advisory stating 5.45x39 7N6 ammunition was not importable because samples it examined were found to contain a steel core, could be used in a commercially available handgun, and was therefore “armor piercing.”  The ATF Special Advisory claims the ATF received a request from the CBP to conduct a test, examination and classification of Russian-made 7N6 5.45x39 ammunition for purposes of determining whether it is considered “armor piercing ammunition."

Last year TheTruthAboutGuns.com ran a story titled CBP: We Never Asked the ATF to Reclassify 7N6 5.45×39 Ammo.  The story claims a FOIA request was filed with the CBP for a copy of the request they made to the ATF to test the ammunition.  The response from CBP was that they were unable to find any record of such a request being made.  

I was unable to find mention of anyone making a FOIA request directly to the ATF for a copy of the request they allegedly received from the CBP, so I filed one.  After not getting a response to my first request I sent a letter requesting they acknowledge receiving my FOIA request, which they did.  Shorty thereafter I received a response to my original FOIA request.  The ATF was unable to provide a copy of any requests from the CBP.  The only request came from an ATF agent in the Norfolk Field Office.  The agent does not state anyone with CBP made a request to him, nor does he state he was given samples of ammunition by anyone with CBP.  It is quite possible he made the request on his own initiative.

The ATF refused to name the agent stating it "would be a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy."  I will be appealing this issue as the law the ATF cites only protects "personnel and medical files and similar files the disclosure of which would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy."  The name of an agent acting in his official capacity should not be protected from disclosure.

Here is the response to my FOIA request which includes the results of the examination of the 7N6 ammunition and photographs.

http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac301/sj586/atf/atf_20160532_1.jpg

http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac301/sj586/atf/atf_20160532_2.jpg

http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac301/sj586/atf/atf_20160532_3.jpg

http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac301/sj586/atf/atf_20160532_4.jpg

http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac301/sj586/atf/atf_20160532_5.jpg

http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac301/sj586/atf/atf_20160532_6.jpg

http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac301/sj586/atf/atf_20160532_7.jpg
View Quote

Well done OP!
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:31:22 PM EDT
[#27]
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:32:01 PM EDT
[#28]
Holy shit - they can move fast when they want to.

There's more to this story, for sure.

Paging Nolo; Nolo to the white courtesy phone, please.
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:34:40 PM EDT
[#29]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:





Also in order for it to be imported, they had to ask permission from guess who? Also I don't think they were ever imported were they?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:



ATF is a joke.  Where is this 5.45 handgun anyway?  My understanding was it was Polish and never imported.


Also in order for it to be imported, they had to ask permission from guess who? Also I don't think they were ever imported were they?




IIRC is was some clown in Florida.



 
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:41:29 PM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


IIRC is was some clown in Florida.
 
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

ATF is a joke.  Where is this 5.45 handgun anyway?  My understanding was it was Polish and never imported.

Also in order for it to be imported, they had to ask permission from guess who? Also I don't think they were ever imported were they?


IIRC is was some clown in Florida.
 


Yep.... the idiot is the one that really screwed it for everyone else. Same with the AK pistol craze.
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:42:17 PM EDT
[#31]
Isn't 5.45 technically smaller than .22 caliber, more like .21 caliber?  The second para in that legal description says larger than .22 caliber.
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:47:14 PM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Calling NOLO.  NOLO, you are needed again...
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
so there was no actual testing other than some really shitty work with pliers . Zero science involved. I know someone who is going to love this .

Calling NOLO.  NOLO, you are needed again...


I've got a great big spotlight with his signature "SOON" already set up.

Quick, to the NOLO-Cave!

Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:48:01 PM EDT
[#33]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I think............



It's FBHO's fault




Aloha, Mark
View Quote
is it ever not the assholes fault



 
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:48:08 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Isn't 5.45 technically smaller than .22 caliber, more like .21 caliber?  The second para in that legal description says larger than .22 caliber.
View Quote



I've been told that as well.
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:48:09 PM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Isn't 5.45 technically smaller than .22 caliber, more like .21 caliber?  The second para in that legal description says larger than .22 caliber.
View Quote


Technically, it's .2145669291338583 caliber, but hornady couldn't fit that on the box.
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:49:32 PM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Isn't 5.45 technically smaller than .22 caliber, more like .21 caliber?  The second para in that legal description says larger than .22 caliber.
View Quote


Yes.

But if the ATF can ignore the "designed and intended for handguns," they can ignore the "under .22 caliber" exception, too. They're fucking assholes.
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:52:58 PM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



No, most members here won't.
You guys really need to stop with this bullshit.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
If we can get Trump in there, I have a feeling that the ATF is going to suffer massive founding cuts.

Many here will vote Clinton/Other.




No, most members here won't.
You guys really need to stop with this bullshit.


he didn't say most, he said many. Given how many admitted voting for the kenyan and others undoubtedly did but won't own up to it, it seems likely as many as 10% of board voters may vote for MLEBW

there will always be traitors and collaborators
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 10:57:09 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Holy shit - they can move fast when they want to.

There's more to this story, for sure.
View Quote


Faaping Furiosly
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 11:03:04 PM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

ATF is a joke.  Where is this 5.45 handgun anyway?  My understanding was it was Polish and never imported.
View Quote


AK74 pistol?
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 11:05:24 PM EDT
[#40]
So should I hold onto my extra 7N6 or not? Standing by to neckbeard............
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 11:06:02 PM EDT
[#41]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Yes.



But if the ATF can ignore the "designed and intended for handguns," they can ignore the "under .22 caliber" exception, too. They're fucking assholes.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:

Isn't 5.45 technically smaller than .22 caliber, more like .21 caliber?  The second para in that legal description says larger than .22 caliber.




Yes.



But if the ATF can ignore the "designed and intended for handguns," they can ignore the "under .22 caliber" exception, too. They're fucking assholes.




they're basing it on (a misreading of, imo) the 1st section:



A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron,
brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or




 
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 11:11:05 PM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


AK74 pistol?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

ATF is a joke.  Where is this 5.45 handgun anyway?  My understanding was it was Polish and never imported.


AK74 pistol?


Yeah, don't even go there...because some manufacturer had to do it just because they could....

And that's what triggered the ban, IIRC.
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 11:11:59 PM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Yes.

But if the ATF can ignore the "designed and intended for handguns," they can ignore the "under .22 caliber" exception, too. They're fucking assholes.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Isn't 5.45 technically smaller than .22 caliber, more like .21 caliber?  The second para in that legal description says larger than .22 caliber.


Yes.

But if the ATF can ignore the "designed and intended for handguns," they can ignore the "under .22 caliber" exception, too. They're fucking assholes.


No. 5.45x39 has a bullet diameter of .221 in.
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 11:13:11 PM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Yeah, don't even go there...because some manufacturer had to do it just because they could....

And that's what triggered the ban, IIRC.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

ATF is a joke.  Where is this 5.45 handgun anyway?  My understanding was it was Polish and never imported.


AK74 pistol?


Yeah, don't even go there...because some manufacturer had to do it just because they could....

And that's what triggered the ban, IIRC.


IIRC it was a request to import a 5.45 pistol that still has not been imported. Someone with a better memory care to chime in?
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 11:14:51 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
so there was no actual testing other than some really shitty work with pliers . Zero science involved. I know someone who is going to love this .
View Quote

Dem pix doe.
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 11:15:49 PM EDT
[#46]
ATF.


Obama's executive punks.
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 11:15:57 PM EDT
[#47]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
No. 5.45x39 has a bullet diameter of .221 in.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:

Isn't 5.45 technically smaller than .22 caliber, more like .21 caliber?  The second para in that legal description says larger than .22 caliber.




Yes.



But if the ATF can ignore the "designed and intended for handguns," they can ignore the "under .22 caliber" exception, too. They're fucking assholes.




No. 5.45x39 has a bullet diameter of .221 in.


I think they justified it with some bullshit about measuring the grooves of the rifling instead of the lands or something to that effect.



 
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 11:20:43 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Also in order for it to be imported, they had to ask permission from guess who? Also I don't think they were ever imported were they?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

ATF is a joke.  Where is this 5.45 handgun anyway?  My understanding was it was Polish and never imported.

Also in order for it to be imported, they had to ask permission from guess who? Also I don't think they were ever imported were they?


From discussions in the AK sub-forum, they ended up not being imported.
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 11:21:45 PM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Isn't 5.45 technically smaller than .22 caliber, more like .21 caliber? The second para in that legal description says larger than .22 caliber.
View Quote


Unfortunately, the Russians measure from the lands and in the U.S. from the grooves, so it's actually > .22 cal.
Link Posted: 8/9/2016 11:23:54 PM EDT
[#50]
Did they have a six year old epileptic section that bullet?
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