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Posted: 6/27/2016 11:21:47 AM EDT
[#1]
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I would give that honor to the tactical shotgun. You can do everything with it from door breaching to taking small birds to taking large game to making sure a bad guy becomes dead to even crowd control (have you seen what Dragons breath looks like at night?) Plus you can put a rifled barrel on it for longer ranges. And the motherfucking portal opens..... Tactical shotgun.... 
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Posted: 6/27/2016 11:22:34 AM EDT
[#2]
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Most realistic SHTF scenarios, you'd be best served with a concealed, higher capacity 9mm pistol with a couple extra mags. Your well being will be in as much danger from the state as it will thugs and thieves. As evidenced in other shtf incidents in this country. Become invisible. Don't cause issues. Stay out of the way. Don't stick out. This is actually true. Once you throw out the Zombie fantasies, any REAL SHTF scenario includes roving police and military patrols being just as much of a threat as roving gangs. Carrying an AR-15 will mark you as a rioter to them. Don't make yourself look like a rioter to anyone driving a Humvee. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 11:26:51 AM EDT
[#3]
You don't need much to defend yourself. Perhaps something like this if you are carrying it on your persons? Easier to hide in a jacket.
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Posted: 6/27/2016 11:30:49 AM EDT
[#4]
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I really think many here would be disappointed that SHTF will not be like they pictured it. It won't be an never ending call of duty gun battle. There was a very good thread years ago from a member who went through an actual SHTF where neighbors patrolled their neighborhoods after Katrina. Any rifle would of done fine as the only time they actually had to use them was to shoot snakes and other critters. So for me a 20" AR would do just fine. I kinda envision a SHTF situation like a longer, more drawn-out Katrina. If that's the case then a 20" would do fine. For me a 20" is a smoother shooting rifle. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 11:31:38 AM EDT
[#5]
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Probably not, but SHTF is such a confused and amorphous concept I'd wager that the marginal difference between a 20" and a 16" wouldn't matter. way too many different possible scenarios to envision a one size fits all...the best all around version for me is the 16" light wt middie...with a good light, ammo, mags, sling, bag & LBE...and then train with what you got...get reasonably good with it. RDS,NVD,Thermal and suppression would not go amiss either... 
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Posted: 6/27/2016 11:39:00 AM EDT
[#6]
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And in your wallet. 300 BLK projectiles can be very expensive if you reload quality bullets... Purchasing 300 BLK? HAHAHA! Don't bother. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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...the difference between .300 BLK and 7.62x39 is only on paper. 300 BLK projectiles can be very expensive if you reload quality bullets... Purchasing 300 BLK? HAHAHA! Don't bother. There is a reason why Barnes Vor-tx costs more than mulsurp 7.62x39 made by Communists. Quality vs quantity. Not to mention, SHTF won't be any nonstop gun battles like they show in the zombie movies. A few hundred rounds will probably be enough to last a few generations. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 11:42:38 AM EDT
[#7]
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And the motherfucking portal opens..... Tactical shotgun.... http://memesvault.com/wp-content/uploads/Hysterical-Laughing-Gif-07.gif Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I would give that honor to the tactical shotgun. You can do everything with it from door breaching to taking small birds to taking large game to making sure a bad guy becomes dead to even crowd control (have you seen what Dragons breath looks like at night?) Plus you can put a rifled barrel on it for longer ranges. And the motherfucking portal opens..... Tactical shotgun.... http://memesvault.com/wp-content/uploads/Hysterical-Laughing-Gif-07.gif Yeah you're right. This guy thought receiving 00 buck was hilarious. See how much he's laughing now? 
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Posted: 6/27/2016 11:52:29 AM EDT
[#8]
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Yeah you're right. This guy thought receiving 00 buck was hilarious. See how much he's laughing now? http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f10/347113d1332437180-firearms-gunshot-wound-deaths-part-ii-33.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I would give that honor to the tactical shotgun. You can do everything with it from door breaching to taking small birds to taking large game to making sure a bad guy becomes dead to even crowd control (have you seen what Dragons breath looks like at night?) Plus you can put a rifled barrel on it for longer ranges. And the motherfucking portal opens..... Tactical shotgun.... http://memesvault.com/wp-content/uploads/Hysterical-Laughing-Gif-07.gif Yeah you're right. This guy thought receiving 00 buck was hilarious. See how much he's laughing now? http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f10/347113d1332437180-firearms-gunshot-wound-deaths-part-ii-33.jpg Mental note: Chest hair won't stop 00 Buck. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 12:40:27 PM EDT
[#9]
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Sure, because with a fixed bayonet the 20" makes a better close combat weapon..... No, but seriously shorter and lighter is the way to go. And of course, look at what any military group that gets a choice of what to carry uses; shorties abound. Because during a large scale civil unrest we will suddenly have 240's, 249's, frags and smoke, indirect fire, and air assets? |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 12:46:30 PM EDT
[#10]
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Yeah you're right. This guy thought receiving 00 buck was hilarious. See how much he's laughing now? http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f10/347113d1332437180-firearms-gunshot-wound-deaths-part-ii-33.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I would give that honor to the tactical shotgun. You can do everything with it from door breaching to taking small birds to taking large game to making sure a bad guy becomes dead to even crowd control (have you seen what Dragons breath looks like at night?) Plus you can put a rifled barrel on it for longer ranges. And the motherfucking portal opens..... Tactical shotgun.... http://memesvault.com/wp-content/uploads/Hysterical-Laughing-Gif-07.gif Yeah you're right. This guy thought receiving 00 buck was hilarious. See how much he's laughing now? http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f10/347113d1332437180-firearms-gunshot-wound-deaths-part-ii-33.jpg I'm guessing that dude didn't have a rifle. Rifles beat shotguns. Badly. A picture of a dead guy doesn't really mean much. The internet is big, I can probably find a picture of a guy that got beaten to death by a fish. That doesn't mean strapping a 2-point on to a haddock is a sound idea. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 12:57:56 PM EDT
[#11]
I always love the mout excuse for short barrels... Cause A1 and A2 rifles were never successfuly used to clear structures .... For fuck sake its tired arguement and an out right falacy.. I do admit the M4 is easier to get in and out of a vehicle , its also inferior from a performance aspect . Everyone does not need a short rifle . Everyone now days thinks they are operators , for those who have SHTF dreams its much more practical to have a rifle that does it all versus a carbine that falls short .
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Posted: 6/27/2016 12:58:57 PM EDT
[#12]
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Mental note: Chest hair won't stop 00 Buck. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I would give that honor to the tactical shotgun. You can do everything with it from door breaching to taking small birds to taking large game to making sure a bad guy becomes dead to even crowd control (have you seen what Dragons breath looks like at night?) Plus you can put a rifled barrel on it for longer ranges. And the motherfucking portal opens..... Tactical shotgun.... http://memesvault.com/wp-content/uploads/Hysterical-Laughing-Gif-07.gif Yeah you're right. This guy thought receiving 00 buck was hilarious. See how much he's laughing now? http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f10/347113d1332437180-firearms-gunshot-wound-deaths-part-ii-33.jpg Mental note: Chest hair won't stop 00 Buck. LOL. Seriously, there are people who believe for some reason that just because engineers are developing cutting edge bullets with space age materials that can punch through ten inches of armor, explode inside the bad guy, and then dig itself out of the bad guy's grave and piss on the tombstone, it means the old proven killers are no longer killers. The human body hasn't improved at all in ten thousand years so even a sword can still kill a man. Look at this guy carrying a shotgun in Vietnam. I can tell you there were obvious advantages to carrying this weapon in short range engagements. Can anyone tell me how stupid he is for carrying a weapon that will only insult the viet cong's manhood? 
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:03:11 PM EDT
[#13]
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Look at this guy carrying a shotgun in Vietnam. I can tell you there were obvious advantages to carrying this weapon in short range engagements. Can anyone tell me how stupid he is for carrying a weapon that will only insult the viet cong's manhood? He's likely carrying it for the same reason my old man carried one in Vietnam... because somebody with stripes handed it it to him and told him to carry it. Shotguns as infantry weapons are even dumber than shotguns as personal defense weapons. But at least the soldier has people with rifles around him to keep him alive. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:04:55 PM EDT
[#14]
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I'm guessing that dude didn't have a rifle. Rifles beat shotguns. Badly. A picture of a dead guy doesn't really mean much. The internet is big, I can probably find a picture of a guy that got beaten to death by a fish. That doesn't mean strapping a 2-point on to a haddock is a sound idea. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I would give that honor to the tactical shotgun. You can do everything with it from door breaching to taking small birds to taking large game to making sure a bad guy becomes dead to even crowd control (have you seen what Dragons breath looks like at night?) Plus you can put a rifled barrel on it for longer ranges. And the motherfucking portal opens..... Tactical shotgun.... http://memesvault.com/wp-content/uploads/Hysterical-Laughing-Gif-07.gif Yeah you're right. This guy thought receiving 00 buck was hilarious. See how much he's laughing now? http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f10/347113d1332437180-firearms-gunshot-wound-deaths-part-ii-33.jpg I'm guessing that dude didn't have a rifle. Rifles beat shotguns. Badly. A picture of a dead guy doesn't really mean much. The internet is big, I can probably find a picture of a guy that got beaten to death by a fish. That doesn't mean strapping a 2-point on to a haddock is a sound idea. New challenge. Steve Irwin doesn't count. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:06:54 PM EDT
[#15]
"With advancements in projectiles today" blah blah blah
He said SHTF not salad days when you can order 75gr otm online. Being able to shoot a wide variety of ammo effectively should be considered with a SHTF rifle |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:18:50 PM EDT
[#16]
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I'm guessing that dude didn't have a rifle. Rifles beat shotguns. Badly. A picture of a dead guy doesn't really mean much. The internet is big, I can probably find a picture of a guy that got beaten to death by a fish. That doesn't mean strapping a 2-point on to a haddock is a sound idea. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I would give that honor to the tactical shotgun. You can do everything with it from door breaching to taking small birds to taking large game to making sure a bad guy becomes dead to even crowd control (have you seen what Dragons breath looks like at night?) Plus you can put a rifled barrel on it for longer ranges. And the motherfucking portal opens..... Tactical shotgun.... http://memesvault.com/wp-content/uploads/Hysterical-Laughing-Gif-07.gif Yeah you're right. This guy thought receiving 00 buck was hilarious. See how much he's laughing now? http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f10/347113d1332437180-firearms-gunshot-wound-deaths-part-ii-33.jpg I'm guessing that dude didn't have a rifle. Rifles beat shotguns. Badly. A picture of a dead guy doesn't really mean much. The internet is big, I can probably find a picture of a guy that got beaten to death by a fish. That doesn't mean strapping a 2-point on to a haddock is a sound idea. There is no such equation. The head has about ten seconds of blood supply that will keep the brain alive even after a mortal wound (particularly when adrenalin has kicked in), so unless you hit the head directly the idea a perp will just drop from one round with ANYTHING and not take you to the grave with him is not something you should bet your life on. OTOH if you hit a perp in the head with ANYTHING, even a .22, it's enough to be instantly lethal. The obvious advantage with shotguns is that you don't need to be Annie Oakley to be able to inflict a mortal head wound. Shotgun mortal head wounds look like this: 
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:20:27 PM EDT
[#17]
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I'm no operator and I haven't survived the end of the world either. That said I spend a lot of time in the back country in Arizona, formerly Colorado. I try to limit myself to 50 lbs, water/food/ammo etc. Much more than that and I'll feel it before 10 miles are past and it'll slow me down. I'd frankly think the issue for most people in the classic "bug out" end of the world would mean the rifle's length is irrelevant but the weight is critical, ammo especially. For the sake of it- If I'm "end of the world" moving shopping Id immediately ax all battle rifles and 12 gauges. if it's the type of thing where I need firepower badly shits bananas and I'm probably not too inclined to move. If I'm carrying a semi-auto AR I'd lean M4 but I don't think the 20" would matter that much either. How many gun fights you plan on walking away from before you're using shit you picked up? There's no logistics, none. Overall I'd say- Glock 40 MOS and a scoped supressed 22 if you're moving. The biggest mother fucking gun you can handle if you're not. If you're in a car you won't be for long. All that said- I'm in southern Arizona, it's a lot of empty desert. Long on edibles, extremely short on surface water, none without treatment. Coverage is minimal on and on. You need a lot and you need to be able to move. If I was Bugging out in Minisota in May, fuck it, take a M92 But in that part of the country what distance to game? Out of season around here I can hunt with my 9mm but in season game gets scarce and being able to take dinner at long range might be important. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:21:44 PM EDT
[#18]
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It did in HMMWVs and Bradleys. I haven't tried driving my focus with my A2 right next to me yet. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Try entering and exiting a vehicle or dwelling with one. Does 4 inches really hinder you that much? It did in HMMWVs and Bradleys. I haven't tried driving my focus with my A2 right next to me yet. Can't speak for mil vehicles, but exiting a patrol car with a 16" AR sucks ass. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:21:46 PM EDT
[#19]
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Where I live absolutely. Having the ability to push those rounds out there a little farther when your ranges are longer. I am going with this answer. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:21:59 PM EDT
[#20]
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PRO's :Turns m193 into a better AP than m855, longer sight radius for iron sights when batteries are gone, softer shooting gun. CON's :Less compact, heavier depending on barrel profile. I say yes considering you will be spending more time outside than inside as you travel looking for resources. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:22:04 PM EDT
[#21]
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Yeah you're right. This guy thought receiving 00 buck was hilarious. See how much he's laughing now? http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f10/347113d1332437180-firearms-gunshot-wound-deaths-part-ii-33.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I would give that honor to the tactical shotgun. You can do everything with it from door breaching to taking small birds to taking large game to making sure a bad guy becomes dead to even crowd control (have you seen what Dragons breath looks like at night?) Plus you can put a rifled barrel on it for longer ranges. And the motherfucking portal opens..... Tactical shotgun.... http://memesvault.com/wp-content/uploads/Hysterical-Laughing-Gif-07.gif Yeah you're right. This guy thought receiving 00 buck was hilarious. See how much he's laughing now? http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f10/347113d1332437180-firearms-gunshot-wound-deaths-part-ii-33.jpg Wow. World's first clear photo of Sasquatch. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:23:45 PM EDT
[#22]
I'm not 25 years old anymore so something light
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:24:16 PM EDT
[#23]
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He's likely carrying it for the same reason my old man carried one in Vietnam... because somebody with stripes handed it it to him and told him to carry it. Shotguns as infantry weapons are even dumber than shotguns as personal defense weapons. But at least the soldier has people with rifles around him to keep him alive. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Look at this guy carrying a shotgun in Vietnam. I can tell you there were obvious advantages to carrying this weapon in short range engagements. Can anyone tell me how stupid he is for carrying a weapon that will only insult the viet cong's manhood? He's likely carrying it for the same reason my old man carried one in Vietnam... because somebody with stripes handed it it to him and told him to carry it. Shotguns as infantry weapons are even dumber than shotguns as personal defense weapons. But at least the soldier has people with rifles around him to keep him alive. So you're saying Sergeant Fred Lloyd's combat record is all a lie? |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:27:37 PM EDT
[#24]
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There is no such equation. The head has about ten seconds of blood supply that will keep the brain alive even after a mortal wound (particularly when adrenalin has kicked in), so unless you hit the head directly the idea a perp will just drop from one round with ANYTHING and not take you to the grave with him is not something you should bet your life on. OTOH if you hit a perp in the head with ANYTHING, even a .22, it's enough to be instantly lethal. The obvious advantage with shotguns is that you don't need to be Annie Oakley to be able to inflict a mortal head wound. That's a 10-gauge 3.5" load worth of derp.... |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:28:16 PM EDT
[#25]
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No. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:28:20 PM EDT
[#26]
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So you're saying Sergeant Fred Lloyd's combat record is all a lie? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Look at this guy carrying a shotgun in Vietnam. I can tell you there were obvious advantages to carrying this weapon in short range engagements. Can anyone tell me how stupid he is for carrying a weapon that will only insult the viet cong's manhood? He's likely carrying it for the same reason my old man carried one in Vietnam... because somebody with stripes handed it it to him and told him to carry it. Shotguns as infantry weapons are even dumber than shotguns as personal defense weapons. But at least the soldier has people with rifles around him to keep him alive. So you're saying Sergeant Fred Lloyd's combat record is all a lie? I've hunted with and put alot of rounds through shotguns over the course of many years. I know what it is capable of with certain loads. I would not feel helpless with a shotgun. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:29:17 PM EDT
[#27]
Do not conflate individual or small group survival during periods of civil unrest with military operations. Small independent groups do not have the logistics train or support anywhere like the military. No ASP, No DFAC or MRE's, No POL, No Medevac, No Arty, No Air.
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:29:40 PM EDT
[#28]
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So you're saying Sergeant Fred Lloyd's combat record is all a lie? I have no idea who that is or what he accomplished. But if he carried a shotgun into combat on his own accord, he made at least one bad decision. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:32:59 PM EDT
[#29]
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Try entering and exiting a vehicle or dwelling with one. Yup, SHTF is going to be all thunder runs and clearing houses. 
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:33:46 PM EDT
[#30]
Absolutley makes sense.
Can you put the pics of dead people in a spoiler Elbert or something. Damn. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:38:23 PM EDT
[#31]
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"With advancements in projectiles today" blah blah blah He said SHTF not salad days when you can order 75gr otm online. Being able to shoot a wide variety of ammo effectively should be considered with a SHTF rifle Exactly right. It's ridiculous to go up single handedly against a platoon with only a shotgun, but then it's ridiculous to go up against a platoon with ANYTHING single handedly. In a SHTF situation we're talking about a breakdown in civilization, not going up against platoons single handedly. Something that can do many things at once is more valuable in SHTF than something that can only do one thing very very well. There are a lot of hunting writers who say a 12 gauge is one of the best close range bear guns there is. To claim a 12 gauge slug can take down a bear but only insult the manhood of a human sized target is mind boggling. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:40:26 PM EDT
[#32]
If youre going with an AR for SHTF, IMO this makes most sense.
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:41:07 PM EDT
[#33]
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Something that can do many things at once is more valuable in SHTF than something that can only do one thing very very well. Yep. But an autoloading rifle does practically everything remotely useful in a SHTF-type situation than the shotgun. I don't see too many doors needing breaching, or small birds needing killing in such a scenario. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:52:52 PM EDT
[#34]
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I have no idea who that is or what he accomplised But if he carried a shotgun into combat on his own accord, he made at least one bad decision. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So you're saying Sergeant Fred Lloyd's combat record is all a lie? I have no idea who that is or what he accomplised But if he carried a shotgun into combat on his own accord, he made at least one bad decision. He single handedly cleared out a town occupied by 30 Germans in house to house fighting with a trench shotgun during world war one. He was able to do it because he could bring his shorter weapon to bear quicker than the Germans with their much longer Mauser 98s and he had a greater ability to hit the target. Plus he didn't just stand still and let the Germans take aim at him like some pistol duel. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 1:54:16 PM EDT
[#35]
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He single handedly cleared out a town occupied by 30 Germans in house to house fighting with a trench shotgun during world war one. He was able to do it because he could bring his shorter weapon to bear quicker than the Germans with their much longer Mauser 98s and he had a greater ability to hit the target. Plus he didn't just stand still and let the Germans take aim at him like some pistol duel. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So you're saying Sergeant Fred Lloyd's combat record is all a lie? I have no idea who that is or what he accomplised But if he carried a shotgun into combat on his own accord, he made at least one bad decision. He single handedly cleared out a town occupied by 30 Germans in house to house fighting with a trench shotgun during world war one. He was able to do it because he could bring his shorter weapon to bear quicker than the Germans with their much longer Mauser 98s and he had a greater ability to hit the target. Plus he didn't just stand still and let the Germans take aim at him like some pistol duel. Did shotgunners even carry that much ammo back then? |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 2:01:05 PM EDT
[#36]
Depends on what you see being of primary concern.
Personally 16" is a damn good compromise in velocity and ease of manipulation. I would like to build a pistol AR, but honestly I don't give that much of a fuck. 20" only makes sense if you think you will only be using it outside, not in vehicles, and not in structures. I have experience clearing structures and in/our of vehicles with a 20" m16a2 and it sucks balls compared to the M4. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 2:01:11 PM EDT
[#37]
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Exactly right. It's ridiculous to go up single handedly against a platoon with only a shotgun, but then it's ridiculous to go up against a platoon with ANYTHING single handedly. In a SHTF situation we're talking about a breakdown in civilization, not going up against platoons single handedly. Something that can do many things at once is more valuable in SHTF than something that can only do one thing very very well. There are a lot of hunting writers who say a 12 gauge is one of the best close range bear guns there is. To claim a 12 gauge slug can take down a bear but only insult the manhood of a human sized target is mind boggling. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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"With advancements in projectiles today" blah blah blah He said SHTF not salad days when you can order 75gr otm online. Being able to shoot a wide variety of ammo effectively should be considered with a SHTF rifle Exactly right. It's ridiculous to go up single handedly against a platoon with only a shotgun, but then it's ridiculous to go up against a platoon with ANYTHING single handedly. In a SHTF situation we're talking about a breakdown in civilization, not going up against platoons single handedly. Something that can do many things at once is more valuable in SHTF than something that can only do one thing very very well. There are a lot of hunting writers who say a 12 gauge is one of the best close range bear guns there is. To claim a 12 gauge slug can take down a bear but only insult the manhood of a human sized target is mind boggling. Who is saying that? I don't get why people insist on thinking that obsolescence = uselessness. I can cave a dude's skull in with a brick. That will kill pretty damn unequivocally. But a brick is an obsolete weapon because there are better ways to kill a dude than caving his skull in with a brick. Shotguns using appropriate shells (ie not birdshot) will kill a human the fuck dead. However, they're still obsolete because there are better, more efficient ways of doing the same job. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 2:01:42 PM EDT
[#38]
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Yep. But an autoloading rifle does practically everything remotely useful in a SHTF-type situation than the shotgun. I don't see too many doors needing breaching, or small birds needing killing in such a scenario. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Something that can do many things at once is more valuable in SHTF than something that can only do one thing very very well. Yep. But an autoloading rifle does practically everything remotely useful in a SHTF-type situation than the shotgun. I don't see too many doors needing breaching, or small birds needing killing in such a scenario. Ahem... 
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Posted: 6/27/2016 2:04:03 PM EDT
[#39]
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He single handedly cleared out a town occupied by 30 Germans in house to house fighting with a trench shotgun during world war one. He was able to do it because he could bring his shorter weapon to bear quicker than the Germans with their much longer Mauser 98s and he had a greater ability to hit the target. Plus he didn't just stand still and let the Germans take aim at him like some pistol duel. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So you're saying Sergeant Fred Lloyd's combat record is all a lie? I have no idea who that is or what he accomplised But if he carried a shotgun into combat on his own accord, he made at least one bad decision. He single handedly cleared out a town occupied by 30 Germans in house to house fighting with a trench shotgun during world war one. He was able to do it because he could bring his shorter weapon to bear quicker than the Germans with their much longer Mauser 98s and he had a greater ability to hit the target. Plus he didn't just stand still and let the Germans take aim at him like some pistol duel. Rifles have evolved a tiny bit since the era of the Mauser G98, but honestly, in the era of the Mauser G98, I think a pump shotgun would have been a good close fighting choice. As soon as the MP18 became available though... 
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Posted: 6/27/2016 2:06:44 PM EDT
[#40]
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He single handedly cleared out a town occupied by 30 Germans in house to house fighting with a trench shotgun during world war one. He was able to do it because he could bring his shorter weapon to bear quicker than the Germans with their much longer Mauser 98s and he had a greater ability to hit the target. Plus he didn't just stand still and let the Germans take aim at him like some pistol duel. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So you're saying Sergeant Fred Lloyd's combat record is all a lie? I have no idea who that is or what he accomplised But if he carried a shotgun into combat on his own accord, he made at least one bad decision. He single handedly cleared out a town occupied by 30 Germans in house to house fighting with a trench shotgun during world war one. He was able to do it because he could bring his shorter weapon to bear quicker than the Germans with their much longer Mauser 98s and he had a greater ability to hit the target. Plus he didn't just stand still and let the Germans take aim at him like some pistol duel. Ah... In WWI the shotgun still had some combat utility. Autoloading rifles weren't yet perfected, and the SMG was in its infancy. Give Sgt. Lloyd an M4 with a few magazines, show him how it works... I'm pretty sure that's what he would have picked for his rampage. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 2:07:33 PM EDT
[#41]
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Something that can do many things at once is more valuable in SHTF than something that can only do one thing very very well. Yep. But an autoloading rifle does practically everything remotely useful in a SHTF-type situation than the shotgun. I don't see too many doors needing breaching, or small birds needing killing in such a scenario. Ahem... https://i.ytimg.com/vi/nOijYQvFyZg/maxresdefault.jpg Why in the blue fuck would you be wingshooting if SHTF? If you need food, don't be sporting. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 2:10:17 PM EDT
[#42]
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Probably within 10 Quote HistoryQuoted:
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PRO's :Turns m193 into a better AP than m855, longer sight radius for iron sights when batteries are gone, softer shooting gun. CON's :Less compact, heavier depending on barrel profile. How far are 90% of your shots going to be if the SHTF? Within 100yds? .................. Probably within 10 For shits and giggles I took the laser ranger finder out around town. Cover to the bank iirc 125 yards, cover to the stop and rob 50 yards, longest range shot at one of the schools 150 yards, etc... iirc the longest shot I had is 175 yards. This is a combination of shopping, residential, schools and rural areas. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 2:17:15 PM EDT
[#43]
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He single handedly cleared out a town occupied by 30 Germans in house to house fighting with a trench shotgun during world war one. He was able to do it because he could bring his shorter weapon to bear quicker than the Germans with their much longer Mauser 98s and he had a greater ability to hit the target. Plus he didn't just stand still and let the Germans take aim at him like some pistol duel. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So you're saying Sergeant Fred Lloyd's combat record is all a lie? I have no idea who that is or what he accomplised But if he carried a shotgun into combat on his own accord, he made at least one bad decision. He single handedly cleared out a town occupied by 30 Germans in house to house fighting with a trench shotgun during world war one. He was able to do it because he could bring his shorter weapon to bear quicker than the Germans with their much longer Mauser 98s and he had a greater ability to hit the target. Plus he didn't just stand still and let the Germans take aim at him like some pistol duel. Equating GEW 98s (the long barreled bastard) to a 20in A1 is really stupid. They are not even in the same universe. My 16in and 20in ARs come to bear as quick if not quicker than shotguns. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 2:18:07 PM EDT
[#44]
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Who is saying that? I don't get why people insist on thinking that obsolescence = uselessness. I can cave a dude's skull in with a brick. That will kill pretty damn unequivocally. But a brick is an obsolete weapon because there are better ways to kill a dude than caving his skull in with a brick. Shotguns using appropriate shells (ie not birdshot) will kill a human the fuck dead. However, they're still obsolete because there are better, more efficient ways of doing the same job. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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"With advancements in projectiles today" blah blah blah He said SHTF not salad days when you can order 75gr otm online. Being able to shoot a wide variety of ammo effectively should be considered with a SHTF rifle Exactly right. It's ridiculous to go up single handedly against a platoon with only a shotgun, but then it's ridiculous to go up against a platoon with ANYTHING single handedly. In a SHTF situation we're talking about a breakdown in civilization, not going up against platoons single handedly. Something that can do many things at once is more valuable in SHTF than something that can only do one thing very very well. There are a lot of hunting writers who say a 12 gauge is one of the best close range bear guns there is. To claim a 12 gauge slug can take down a bear but only insult the manhood of a human sized target is mind boggling. Who is saying that? I don't get why people insist on thinking that obsolescence = uselessness. I can cave a dude's skull in with a brick. That will kill pretty damn unequivocally. But a brick is an obsolete weapon because there are better ways to kill a dude than caving his skull in with a brick. Shotguns using appropriate shells (ie not birdshot) will kill a human the fuck dead. However, they're still obsolete because there are better, more efficient ways of doing the same job. Define "more efficient". The Sandy Hook shooter...and I refuse to mention that animal's name...fired 154 rounds and he killed 26 people with an AR-15. Statistically he wasted 80% of his ammo either by shooting his victims multiple times or from missing his target completely. The reason is obvious- in real shootings, people don't stand still like paper targets. They run and jump around trying not to get shot. The most lethal bullet design you can think of is still harmless if it doesn't hit what you're aiming at. Yes I know this is freaking ghoulish, but geez, the AR-15 isn't the tactical nuke you all (and the media) think it is. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 2:19:32 PM EDT
[#45]
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SHTFantisies, it might not be good for. But for a disrupted area for a short time, i.e. Katrina, any gun will be better than no gun. I believe food and medicine and shelter will be infinitely more valuable than your preferred pick of rifle. If you find yourself in multiple gun battles without any kind of support, you may not be around too long. Just my .02 What he said. You can roam around scavenging all you want but a gunfight you avoid is a gunfight you won. I think a lot of SHTF tv shows and movies make DIY gunshot treatment/rehab look a little easier than it is in real life. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 2:19:40 PM EDT
[#46]
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The reason is obvious- in real shootings, people don't stand still like paper targets. They run and jump around trying not to get shot. The most lethal bullet design you can think of is still harmless if it doesn't hit what you're aiming at. Yep. And it's easier to make fight-stopping hits on targets like that with a rifle than a shotgun. |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 2:21:25 PM EDT
[#47]
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For shits and giggles I took the laser ranger finder out around town. Cover to the bank iirc 125 yards, cover to the stop and rob 50 yards, longest range shot at one of the schools 150 yards, etc... iirc the longest shot I had is 175 yards. This is a combination of shopping, residential, schools and rural areas. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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PRO's :Turns m193 into a better AP than m855, longer sight radius for iron sights when batteries are gone, softer shooting gun. CON's :Less compact, heavier depending on barrel profile. How far are 90% of your shots going to be if the SHTF? Within 100yds? .................. Probably within 10 For shits and giggles I took the laser ranger finder out around town. Cover to the bank iirc 125 yards, cover to the stop and rob 50 yards, longest range shot at one of the schools 150 yards, etc... iirc the longest shot I had is 175 yards. This is a combination of shopping, residential, schools and rural areas. Will your opponents be behind barriers? |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 2:25:34 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If youre going with an AR for SHTF, IMO this makes most sense. http://i.imgur.com/tjNu00Z.jpg  |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 2:30:11 PM EDT
[#49]
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Will your opponents be behind barriers? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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PRO's :Turns m193 into a better AP than m855, longer sight radius for iron sights when batteries are gone, softer shooting gun. CON's :Less compact, heavier depending on barrel profile. How far are 90% of your shots going to be if the SHTF? Within 100yds? .................. Probably within 10 For shits and giggles I took the laser ranger finder out around town. Cover to the bank iirc 125 yards, cover to the stop and rob 50 yards, longest range shot at one of the schools 150 yards, etc... iirc the longest shot I had is 175 yards. This is a combination of shopping, residential, schools and rural areas. Will your opponents be behind barriers? 14.5 to 16 inch crowd thinks everyone will just stand out in the open ... |
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Posted: 6/27/2016 2:31:57 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup, SHTF is going to be all thunder runs and clearing houses. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Try entering and exiting a vehicle or dwelling with one. Yup, SHTF is going to be all thunder runs and clearing houses.  |
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