Protein recommendation for ketosis is 60% to 100% per lb of lean body mass. No idea for building muscle.

No testing, just trying to hit macros.  I have no problem staying under 20 carbs during the week, but I allow myself to binge to a whopping 25 one day a week.  This weekend I had a Chipotle chicken salad with guac.  

My short term goal is 180 lbs, but have no timeline.  As long as I keep losing weight, I'll be happy.  180 will get me comfortably below my Army max weight without the risk of taping.  I pass tape now, but hate standing in line with the fat kids.  Once I get to 180, I'll ask the wife if she wants me to go further.  If she says yes, I'll go for 169, which is normal BMI for my height.

have you guys heard of or used TKD? (targetted keto diet)
Basically you consume carbs before a workout, it is intended for those who just dont adapt well to straight keto or need more burst type energy.

At what point does your urine and body odor and go back to tolerable levels?

Not to trying to be gross i but stink in the morning

I haven't smelled a thing different with myself. My urine smells like vitamins, just like always. Hilighter green, too. Gotta love beta carotene. I haven't noticed bad breath or body odor. Still testing fairly high for ketones so I imagine it would smell by now if it were going to. 

Bad breath is usually just a week, maybe two, if you have it at all.

Once your body's organs are adapted, you'll be using ketones rather than expelling them.

ETA I can't smell my pee, cuz I stand up.

Hmmm.
For me about the time I started testing high for ketones I noticed my body odor got absolutely terrible and my urine started smelling super strong. I don't know what vitamins smell like so I couldn't make the comparison. Im pretty sure it's not because of dehydration as I average about a gallon of water a day

Take a sniff of a bottle of vitamins. Smells about the same coming out. The color is what's fun. 

I bought a cast iron skillet on Amazon and made this the day after I got it. I used bacon and breakfast sausage in place of chorizo (hadn't thawed yet) and it was awesome. However, I had to bake for 35ish minutes to cool thoroughly. Thanks for the recipe!!

it's hard to say that anything over .75g/lb of bodyweight is wasted. Your body can only convert so much protein in to muscle at any one time, I saw a study recently where a person eating 30 grams of protein in one meal and a person eating 90 grams of protein in a meal saw the exact same amount of muscle synthesis and only about 15 grams were used for that. the extra 75 grams of protein get converted in to sugar.

if you want to maximize utilization of protein in muscle synthesis you need to spread that protein out thoughout the day, have 6+ servings of 20-30 grams of protein throughout the day.

also the calculation for protein is based on lean bodyweight not total bodyweight. If you are walking around with 60 lbs of fat you don't need protein for the fat.

I dropped this in the 'beetus thread, thought I'd add it here since it has some good info (apologies to you long-timers who've probably posted all of it before!)

Written up by a friend of mine:

I put together this list of links for a 44 year-old friend who was just diagnosed with “pre-diabetes” who is struggling with his weight and PTSD.


There is a lot here. It is easy to go down the rabbit hole of the internet. My goal is 75% of calories from fat, 23% protein, 2% carbs. It is not easy to hit  the fat number without overdoing total calories, since most fat also has protein, and that’s not necessarily a good thing if you are trying to do this. What also blows me away is that since I eat LESS, despite subbing fat/protein for carbs, my costs are not skyrocketing.

What is a ketogenic diet? (from ruled.me)



I’d recommend reading at least one of these two articles first. These will probably piss you off. They sure make me wonder about my beliefs with respect to food.

Sugar Conspiracy from NPR - this one is disturbing.   From the article:  “If Americans could be persuaded to eat a lower-fat diet — for the sake of their health — they would need to replace that fat with something else. America's per capita sugar consumption could go up by a third.”  Follow the money…
More Sugar Conspiracy   More Sugar Conspiracy – this man appears to have been hung out to dry. In this case, I’d say the science is NOT settled.



Studies:

Long Term Effects for Obese Patients on a Ketogenic Diet   Long term effects for Obese Patients on a Ketogenic Diet

Conclusion: The present study shows the beneficial effects of a long-term ketogenic diet. It significantly reduced the body weight and body mass index of the patients. Furthermore, it decreased the level of triglycerides, LDL cholesterol and blood glucose, and increased the level of HDL cholesterol. Administering a ketogenic diet for a relatively longer period of time did not produce any significant side effects in the patients. Therefore, the present study confirms that it is safe to use a ketogenic diet for a longer period of time than previously demonstrated.

Long Term Effects - High Cholesterol      Long term effects for High Cholesterol

Mental Health on Keto  The antidepressant properties of a ketogenic diet (just a small abstract – see below for more mental health stuff)


Diabetes Stuff


Keto and Pre-diabetes Ketogenic Diet and pre-diabetes

More Keto and Type 2  Good write-up on T2D – with discussion of Atkins. The “problem” with Atkins is that it does not emphasize Fat, just low carb, which left protein to eat. Protein turns into glucose via gluconeogenesis, so that doesn’t get you the full benefits of ketosis. Or so they say.

With the keto diet, your body converts fat, instead of sugar, into energy. The diet was created in 1924 as a treatment for epilepsy, but the effects of this eating pattern are also being studied for type 2 diabetes. The ketogenic diet may improve blood glucose (sugar) levels while also reducing the need for insulin. However, the diet does come with risks, so make sure to discuss it with your doctor before making drastic dietary changes.

DKA is most prevalent in type 1 diabetes when blood glucose is too high and can arise from a lack of insulin. Although rare, DKA is a possibility in type 2 diabetes if ketones are too high.

Protein and Glucose  - Write up on protein and gluconeogenesis.


Mental Health Stuff – very interesting. I guess it should not be shocking that diet impacts mental health as well as physical health.

The opposite of a low fat, snacking lifestyle would be the lifestyle our ancestors lived for tens of thousands of generations, the lifestyle for which our brains are primarily evolved. It seems reasonable that we would have had extended periods without food, either because there was none available, or we were busy doing something else.

Your Brain on Ketones  - from Psychiatry Today.

Can what you eat effect your mental health?

The Fat Fueled Brain   All kinds of science-y stuff here. Good info.





Awesome resource for recipes and what-not ?  Ruled.Me  (bookmark this one if you start)


A Naysayer And - for a little balance, here’s a contrarian (although he’s talking mostly about adding fat to your current diet vs keto)

This is a fantastic post! Thank you.

I've quickly read through most of the linked refeferences and I'm looking forward to going through them more carefully and selecting the articles I plan on sending to the doubters who insist I'm eating unhealthy despite the fact that my health is improving.

So on the carbs portion of the diet....is it total carbs or net carbs that i should be counting ?

Net

I count NET carbs. Pretty much most of the things I've seen and read seem to back that method up. It might not be correct, but until the science is settled I'm sticking my head in the sand for now.

Plus now I get to make low carb Fajitas, and tacos and junk

Do people understand why it's net carbs?

Your body can't utilize the calories locked up in fiber.  Or at least it's not very good at doing it, so while fiber is made up of carbohydrates you can't burn it for fuel.  


...think wood.  

There's carbohydrates (sugars) in wood. You just can't digest it like termites do.  So wood has 0 (or near zero) net carbs for you.  You'll starve to death eating wood.

Unless there's termites in the wood. 

Correct.  You eat the termites that eat the wood, just like you eat the cows that eat the grass.

Then you poop on the ground and a new tree grows.  

38 hours into another 48-hour fast and cruising along with no hunger whatsoever. I love ketosis. Haven't hit the "hunter's mind" euphoric feeling this time, yet.

I've posted before about no apparent nexus between the timing of calorie excess/deficit and weight gain/loss. It seems like variation in intake speeds up the process. For example, I seem to notice more dramatic weight loss by doing 4-5 days at a 200-300 calorie deficit, followed by 3-4 days of no deficit or even an excess, than I do with 7 days of 200-300 calorie deficit. Even though the former example results in higher caloric intake, I see better results. Either way, ever since I've been in ketosis, I'm never hungry, so it's been easy for me to vary intake and timing, for the sake of science.

Anybody have similar experiences or have an explanation for this? @qweevox I'm looking at you...

@grady

I do think shaking things up can help.  I've been all over the board.

Attached File

One of my girls brought me a chocolate keto cake this morning. It is amazing!

Oh good, you didn't share the recipe. I wasn't wondering. 

SOON!

I will try this in my electric pressure cooker. It does great keto cheesecakes.

I would try to get an accurate body fat reading, either water displacement or Bod Pod. BMI weight is ridiculous, to get to a BMI of 25 (which is the low end of overweight) I would have to weigh 189 lbs. Based on my Body Fat measurement in a Bod Pod at 24.5% and 236 lbs, at 189 I would be 6% body fat if fat was all I lost. I guess you could always lose muscle too and maybe some bone density.

If you are active and decently muscular be careful.

In a meeting this morning with about 15 others and of course Fatty McFatface brings in 3 boxes of doughnuts. I sit there high & mighty sipping my black coffee in disgust at everyone doublefisting their pieholes. I didn't want one UNTIL from about 20' away I can smell the fucking maplebars. It's like my body has become hyper sensitive to sugar. I'd treat myself to something cause I'm almost at my target weight, but I'm afraid of an adverse reaction

For some reason I haven't had cravings and I have basically cut my intentional carb intake to zero, figuring there are enough incedental carbs sneaking in around the edges.

The other night I ate a handful of corn chips and a couple tater tots at a bar. More carbs at one sitting than the entire month of January, and they didn't taste all that different.

What has changed is my appreciation for brown liquor. I have a bottle of high end scotch that used to bother my stomach, now it tastes really smooth.

how would a keto diet affect someone who's already bone thin skinny and low bmi?

and also someone who  does intensive workouts 4 x a week consisting of deadlifts, bench, squats, swimming)

It would make you healthier. Not thinner- healthier.  Just make sure you get enough food. 

I put on weight which was my goal.

It tends to help you normalize at a healthy weight.

Don't you have diabetes too? Or were you just posting in that thread out of curiosity?


If you are concerned about being underweight cut the workouts down to 2 or 3 days a week. You don't build muscle working out you build muscle by fully recovering from a workout eating enough and sleeping well.

Lifting tears down your muscle which is needed to make them grow stronger but if you overdo it you won't see the gains.

depends.  If the carbs are actually fiber,  net.  If they're an add in, like in low carb tortillas, total.   The best way is to experiment with things and a glucometer

you'll add muscle.

I have a question for the more experienced keto dieters. I've been keto dieting for about a month. I have lost 13lbs with watching my calories and sticking to my macros. I have been hiking a total of twelve miles each weekend as my exercise (my job makes working out during the week difficult and I'd rather spend quality time with the wife - schedule doesn't permit us to work out together). Honestly besides the initial week loss of 6 lbs my weight seems to drop after after my workouts and I stay at that weight may go up a lb over the course of the week until the next weekend. The diet is working; I've dropped a pant size; my body is noticeably smaller, I have more energy, not hungry all of the time, retaining less water, my BP is trending down (take it daily but not a huge difference). The most noticeable difference is the forth of my wrist has decreased significantly; my watch is a LOT looser. I take my BG daily (pre-diabetic) but my averages haven't changed much. I vary from 100-127 with the average around 118 or so.

My question: I have been using urinary strips to test for ketones daily and have consistently have ketones in my urine the entire time I've been on the diet. For the first week and a half my keto concentration in my urine gradually got higher each day then I bounced between large and very large daily (dehydration affects this). But as of late I am finding that I am consistently having less ketones in my urine today I register between trace and small. Yesterday was small. I know I'm still in ketosis and for the first time I can actually appreciate the smell of my urine. My question is this a good thing? Is it a sign I have become keto adapted? Is it a sign I'm eating too much protein? Am I just more adequately hydrated? Is this because my body is more efficiently using ketones for energy and less are being spilled into urine?

I've heard blood tests are more accurate for detection of ketosis levels. Can someone recommend a unit to test myself with? Thanks.

I have a question for the more experienced keto dieters. I've been keto dieting for about a month. I have lost 13lbs with watching my calories and sticking to my macros. I have been hiking a total of twelve miles each weekend as my exercise (my job makes working out during the week difficult and I'd rather spend quality time with the wife - schedule doesn't permit us to work out together). Honestly besides the initial week loss of 6 lbs my weight seems to drop after after my workouts and I stay at that weight may go up a lb over the course of the week until the next weekend. The diet is working; I've dropped a pant size; my body is noticeably smaller, I have more energy, not hungry all of the time, retaining less water, my BP is trending down (take it daily but not a huge difference). The most noticeable difference is the girth of my wrist has decreased significantly; my watch is a LOT looser. I take my BG daily (pre-diabetic) but my averages haven't changed much. I vary from 100-127 with the average around 118 or so.

My question: I have been using urinary strips to test for ketones daily and have consistently have ketones in my urine the entire time I've been on the diet. For the first week and a half my keto concentration in my urine gradually got higher each day then I bounced between large and very large daily (dehydration affects this). But as of late I am finding that I am consistently having less ketones in my urine today I register between trace and small. Yesterday was small. I know I'm still in ketosis and for the first time I can actually appreciate the smell of my urine. My question is this a good thing? Is it a sign I have become keto adapted? Is it a sign I'm eating too much protein? Am I just more adequately hydrated? Is this because my body is more efficiently using ketones for energy and less are being spilled into urine?

I've heard blood tests are more accurate for detection of ketosis levels. Can someone recommend a unit to test myself with? Thanks.

I've been doing TKD.  Started Keto for New Years and I had to add carbs in for my workouts.  I was already running 3x a week ( training for 1/2 marathon ) plus weights x4.  I noticed that I only had about 45 to 60 min of energy for a workout, where before the diet I would be fine for 90 min.  I would crash hard about 4 miles into my runs so started taking a Humma Gel before I ran (13g sugar, 21 NET carbs) then I would be fine for my 7 mile runs during the week.  On weekends when I would run further, I would take another Gel or two during the run.  I had to play with the amount a bit to find the sweet spot where I would be worn out but not crash.  My avg pace went from an 11:15 min/mile over 10 miles to 10:10 min/mile.  Trying to get down under a 10 flat pace for a 1/2 marathon but that will be the goal for the next race.

I'm down 19# from 229.  I'm 6`2 and 40 years old.  My original target was 15 then I bumped it to 20 so almost there but now I'm thinking of going for 25.  What I am going to play around with after my 1/2 marathon ( next Saturday ) is having some carbs ( I'm thinking an apple ) before lifting weights.

So I did an little experiment the other day with the piss strips.

Woke up in the morning and did my morning test, very high for ketones. Had a light breakfast of turkey and cheese.
Went for a heavy work out for an hour. One thing I notice is that it takes me a little while to " warm up" during a work out now that I'm in keto as opposed to when I wasn't. I used to go right in to heavy lifting after just one warm up session. Now it takes me about 15-20 minutes.

But....

Once I get going, I have a crazy amount of energy and lifting heavy just seems like an normal muscle movement without as much noticed effort. Also I don't feel completely drained after a workout. Just something I noticed

So any way. When I went back home, no ketones in the pee strips. I guess I used them during the work out


Anyone drink Muscle Milk?
No sugar, but has about 4 net carbs. Anyone think that's a bad idea post workout?

I love my staff. They brought another one today.

@ChrisGarrett posted this in the Type 2 diabetes sucks thread, but I think others here will find the article interesting.

Fasting: Jump Starting the Pancreas

In the article there are also links to a three part article on intermittent fasting.

Intermittent Fasting
Intermittent Fasting - Enduring the hunger pangs
Intermittent Fasting - The good things it did to my body

I just finished my third week of 5/2 fasting.  So far the experience has been very positive.  I have broken through my weight loss plateau.  With the exception of a minor headache during the first day I fasted I experienced no other headaches.  My hunger pangs are minimal, usually only when I am preparing lunch for my daughter or dinner for the family.  Since I am not experiencing a lot of negative reactions (compared to when I tried a 36 hour fast about 15 years ago), I am considering doing a longer fast after I complete next weeks 5/2 fast. I think a 36 hour fast would be easily doable for me, and if that goes well I will try a 48 hour one.

I've recently discovered Oscar Meyer Smokies - please tell me why I shouldn't eat these, because as it is I'm finding they hit the "junk food" spot perfectly. I've taken to eating two links when I get home from work with some coarse-ground mustard... it's an amazing snack.

Those things pickle up nicely as a replacement for Penrose pickled sausages

FWIW, the last time I went into ketosis I didn't get the strange BO.  Maybe it goes away after cycling once or twice in and out of ketosis.

Funny they have corn syrup but 0 carbs... I bet eating 2 would give you at least a gram. Whatever seems fine to me

My only symptom, is my nose occasionally runs with acetone/vinegar.  

If I sneezed on potato chips, they would become salt/vinegar flavor.

Technically, 0% is less than 2%.

Ha!

I just came across a paper that claims that false-positives are possible on breathalyzer tests for keto dieters:

False-positive breath-alcohol test after a ketogenic diet

I've been on the keto plan for a week and a half.  I'm trying to be strict, with 18 grams or less of carbs per day.  Ive never gone over 18 grams, usually less.  I work out 5 days per week, 2 days swimming at least a mile, 3 days lifting and cardio.

I have not lost one damn pound.  Not one.

So far I have frustrated myself even worse and made my life harder with this diet plan,  for no rewards.  How long does this BS take before I start losing anything at all?  So far it's not worth the hassle.  

Right now I can't see why I'm struggling and cooking separate meals for myself.  I'd kill a man for one sandwich, but the world would end if I ate one slice of bread.  I'd crawl naked over broken glass for a small order of fries.  I want to stick out the 60 days I promised myself, but so far it's not worth the struggle.

If it's really that much of a struggle for you and you aren't diabetic just count calories.  You really do need to be at a caloric deficit even on keto to lose weight. It is just a lot easier to feel satiated eating keto. For most people it's a lot easier to eat steak and bacon instead of rice cakes and salad.

How much do you weigh? what's your body fat%? How tall are you? What's your tdee? If you are actually lifting decent weight you might be shedding fat and gaining muscle. Take measurements and comparison photos. Are ypur lifts still going up?

Some people can take a good week to get in to keto. Or even a month to be well keto adapted and see the performance results Try fasting for a day or just like 16 hours a day...

Keto is great to get your body primed to burn body fat but if you are still eating a surplus you may not see much of a drop on the scale but may see improved body composition especially if you are lifting.

The numbers on the scale don't mean much and a week and a half isn't a good indicator of anything. This is not a crash diet to lose weight fast it is a healthier way of life.

Eat a fucking sandwich if it will help you get over the mental hurdle.

Don't make separate meals for the family, keto is healthy for them too.