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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:59:10 PM EDT
[#1]
Everyone pays their fair share. Everyone.
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:02:09 PM EDT
[#2]
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Good question. Imagine this: we have a cost of government. We divide that cost by the number of eligible taxpayers (assume all able adults age 18 to 60 - this is an illustration - don't get stuck on the numbers). That is the individual tax burden per taxpayer, no percentage required, and theoretically more "fair" than a percentage. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? How is giving 10% not equal? Good question. Imagine this: we have a cost of government. We divide that cost by the number of eligible taxpayers (assume all able adults age 18 to 60 - this is an illustration - don't get stuck on the numbers). That is the individual tax burden per taxpayer, no percentage required, and theoretically more "fair" than a percentage. Because Income is relative a percentage of income is not. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:04:35 PM EDT
[#3]
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Just to cover the Military Budget, the current tax would be $2,700 /person/year.  But it isn't payed porportionally to population... |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:05:52 PM EDT
[#4]
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I think percentage is fair. 10% or what ever, is fair. It's still 10%. My way would work like this. Under poverty level 5% Above poverty level 10% Above a million 15% Above a Billion 20% Everyone has some skin in the game. Payable in full at the voting booth. Delinquent in taxes? No vote for you. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:07:00 PM EDT
[#5]
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its not fair because the taxes get you lets say.. military roads public education police fire department etc. why should one guy pay $10,000.00 a year for those services while the next guy pays $1,000.00 for the same services. that's how a flat tax based on a percentage is not fair... a fixed amount would be more fair. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? How is a flat percentage that is levied equally against everyone without exemptions not fair? Don't go full retard OP. its not fair because the taxes get you lets say.. military roads public education police fire department etc. why should one guy pay $10,000.00 a year for those services while the next guy pays $1,000.00 for the same services. that's how a flat tax based on a percentage is not fair... a fixed amount would be more fair. The person paying $10k can always make less money right? Nobody is forcing them to make that much. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:08:11 PM EDT
[#6]
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Abolish the income tax. What would you put in its place? |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:08:13 PM EDT
[#7]
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How is that NOT fair in your mind? Both people in that scenario are paying the exact same amount from each dollar they make. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? How is that NOT fair in your mind? Both people in that scenario are paying the exact same amount from each dollar they make. because if I work 35 hours and you work 40 hours both of us at the same wage why should you have to pay more than me just because you work harder? |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:09:10 PM EDT
[#8]
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The person paying $10k can always make less money right? Nobody is forcing them to make that much. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? How is a flat percentage that is levied equally against everyone without exemptions not fair? Don't go full retard OP. its not fair because the taxes get you lets say.. military roads public education police fire department etc. why should one guy pay $10,000.00 a year for those services while the next guy pays $1,000.00 for the same services. that's how a flat tax based on a percentage is not fair... a fixed amount would be more fair. The person paying $10k can always make less money right? Nobody is forcing them to make that much. How progressive and socialistic redistributionist of you. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:09:44 PM EDT
[#9]
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Payable in full at the voting booth. Delinquent in taxes? No vote for you. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I think percentage is fair. 10% or what ever, is fair. It's still 10%. My way would work like this. Under poverty level 5% Above poverty level 10% Above a million 15% Above a Billion 20% Everyone has some skin in the game. Payable in full at the voting booth. Delinquent in taxes? No vote for you. The vast majority wouldn't care. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:11:09 PM EDT
[#10]
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I don't have a system or an answer to solve our deficit... but for the sake of argument the answer is "YES" now what the punishment would or should be is a whole different thread as it becomes to easy to make a slave class by just raising the fixed amount of the tax higher and higher till either their is a revolution or everyone is a slave. As I have said multiple times in this thread this is a philosophical question not an argument for a new or better system. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? A flat dollar amount would not be an income tax, since it doesn't use income to figure the amount of an individual's tax liability. It would be more appropriate to call it a "citizen tax" or something similar. Therefore, the "fairest" income tax is one based on a flat percentage rate. That's an argument in semantics you knew what I was saying... Would someone with $0 income (like a stay at home parent) owe the flat tax amount in your system? I don't have a system or an answer to solve our deficit... but for the sake of argument the answer is "YES" now what the punishment would or should be is a whole different thread as it becomes to easy to make a slave class by just raising the fixed amount of the tax higher and higher till either their is a revolution or everyone is a slave. As I have said multiple times in this thread this is a philosophical question not an argument for a new or better system. So you are not arguing for an income tax but a required citizens tax. Just like obamacare. Nice |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:12:51 PM EDT
[#11]
Just about any tax can be reasonably explained as a sales tax. When you work for someone, you're selling your services to them. If a % based sales tax is acceptable, then a % based income tax is acceptable.
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:13:36 PM EDT
[#12]
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? Graduated income taxes is one of the fundamental tenets of communism. If you don't think you have enough dollars, go earn some more. 
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:15:16 PM EDT
[#13]
The only reason the tax code is 12 feet thick is that the people with money are paying the politicians to carve out tax exemptions for them in the code.
A "fair" tax on a percentage basis still leaves the "rich" with excess money to use as they wish. On top of the ease of a percentage tax, you could almost, if not completely eliminate the IRS. And besides, why is it fair if you pay $300 consumption tax on your Yugo while I pay $3000 for my 'Benz. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:15:22 PM EDT
[#14]
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How progressive and socialistic redistributionist of you. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? How is a flat percentage that is levied equally against everyone without exemptions not fair? Don't go full retard OP. its not fair because the taxes get you lets say.. military roads public education police fire department etc. why should one guy pay $10,000.00 a year for those services while the next guy pays $1,000.00 for the same services. that's how a flat tax based on a percentage is not fair... a fixed amount would be more fair. The person paying $10k can always make less money right? Nobody is forcing them to make that much. How progressive and socialistic redistributionist of you.  never heard of going galt?
Both parties know each dollar earned gets taxed at 10%. You can stop earning money at any point if you have gone over your desired tax threshold. Just because you pay more doeent make it unfair in anyway. You are really starting to fall apart and grasp at straws 
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:15:51 PM EDT
[#15]
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So you are not arguing for an income tax but a required citizens tax. Just like obamacare. Nice Where the fuck are you getting this? I am not arguing for anything. I am asking a question to get opinions. I will say it one more time I DO NOT HAVE THE ANSWERS. What I do know is that our tax system needs to be reworked, and supposed entitlements of government welfare should not be a career. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:16:40 PM EDT
[#16]
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Graduated income taxes is one of the fundamental tenets of communism. If you don't think you have enough dollars, go earn some more. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? Graduated income taxes is one of the fundamental tenets of communism. If you don't think you have enough dollars, go earn some more. Graduated taxes are the DEVIL... I agree.. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:17:02 PM EDT
[#17]
A national sales tax of 3% would give us enough money to run things in this country at their current level and then some. The IRS spent $11,4 Billion on itself in one year recently. With a national sales tax, we could shut down the IRS completely. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:19:32 PM EDT
[#18]
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never heard of going galt?
Both parties know each dollar earned gets taxed at 10%. You can stop earning money at any point if you have gone over your desired tax threshold. Just because you pay more doeent make it unfair in anyway. You are really starting to fall apart and grasp at straws
What are you talking about. I know what going Galt is but that has zero to do with a basic question of "Belief" is a tax flat or otherwise based on a Percentage "Fair" That's it nothing more. I don't have some sick communistic plan for "fixing" the system. and how is "paying more" fair? I would rather everyone pay an "Equal" amount. (what is so hard about this concept?) I understand this probably wouldn't work but as I have said multiple times this is just a philosophical question. Not an answer to our taxes issues in this country. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:22:10 PM EDT
[#19]
It is only fair if the flat rate is the same for everyone, regardless of income...rich OR POOR.
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:22:13 PM EDT
[#20]
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Where the fuck are you getting this? I am not arguing for anything. I am asking a question to get opinions. I will say it one more time I DO NOT HAVE THE ANSWERS. What I do know is that our tax system needs to be reworked, and supposed entitlements of government welfare should not be a career. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So you are not arguing for an income tax but a required citizens tax. Just like obamacare. Nice Where the fuck are you getting this? I am not arguing for anything. I am asking a question to get opinions. I will say it one more time I DO NOT HAVE THE ANSWERS. What I do know is that our tax system needs to be reworked, and supposed entitlements of government welfare should not be a career. You havent argued for a flat tax amount anywhere in this thread? Ok guy 
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:22:29 PM EDT
[#21]
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It is only fair if the flat rate is the same for everyone, regardless of income...rich OR POOR. agreed |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:26:48 PM EDT
[#22]
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29% federal income tax? I'm mostly here for the firearm knowledge so these things are over my head. But it seems to me if the middle class and poor were paying the same Fed income tax it would be a huge percentage. New Entitlements alone would be unsustainable not to mention the new state taxes that would come with a new tax system. One thing for sure, democrat or republican neither give a rats ass about easing the tax burden on the middle class. Curious though everyone focuses on federal income tax but how much money does the Feds take from the states and seems like everything has a federal fee attached. I always figured federal income tax was used to take money from one class to give to the other. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Maybe fair but it's not realistic. Currently, the average middle class family works till the middle of April to pay their share of the taxes. A flat tax would wipe out the middle class and makes slaves of the poor. If the rich don't like paying percentage tax then they need to quit giving millions of dollars to the party elites. The average middle class family pays 29% right now. Fair tax spreads the burden out across the classes and it's a flat percentage of what's earned, no exemptions. Explain how that would destroy the middle class because your math isnt adding up? 29% federal income tax? I'm mostly here for the firearm knowledge so these things are over my head. But it seems to me if the middle class and poor were paying the same Fed income tax it would be a huge percentage. New Entitlements alone would be unsustainable not to mention the new state taxes that would come with a new tax system. One thing for sure, democrat or republican neither give a rats ass about easing the tax burden on the middle class. Curious though everyone focuses on federal income tax but how much money does the Feds take from the states and seems like everything has a federal fee attached. I always figured federal income tax was used to take money from one class to give to the other. That my friend is part of the lie of budgeting. Alot of budgets are based on one or two sources of revenue. The governments of municipalities, counties, states and feds hide much of their revenue from taxpayers and the only way it can be found is by analyzing their comprehensive financial reports which are rarely reported 100% in the annual budgets.
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:27:44 PM EDT
[#23]
Any revision in the tax laws should be tied to a requirement that the government has to live within it's means...no borrowing from social security, future earnings, or any other BS political tricks. The government can only spend what they take in during any one year. If that means that they have to build up a reserve to deal with any future issues, so be it...that is what I have do do.
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:28:18 PM EDT
[#24]
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You havent argued for a flat tax amount anywhere in this thread? Ok guy
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So you are not arguing for an income tax but a required citizens tax. Just like obamacare. Nice Where the fuck are you getting this? I am not arguing for anything. I am asking a question to get opinions. I will say it one more time I DO NOT HAVE THE ANSWERS. What I do know is that our tax system needs to be reworked, and supposed entitlements of government welfare should not be a career. You havent argued for a flat tax amount anywhere in this thread? Ok guy
I have discussed it as a "Belief" not a solution... And how is a flat tax worse than a progressive one again? |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:29:47 PM EDT
[#25]
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agreed Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It is only fair if the flat rate is the same for everyone, regardless of income...rich OR POOR. agreed Actually if he is referring to rate as a % , then no, you do not agree |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:33:24 PM EDT
[#26]
Any tax on income is by nature not fair and punitive.
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:33:45 PM EDT
[#27]
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I have discussed it as a "Belief" not a solution... And how is a flat tax worse than a progressive one again? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So you are not arguing for an income tax but a required citizens tax. Just like obamacare. Nice Where the fuck are you getting this? I am not arguing for anything. I am asking a question to get opinions. I will say it one more time I DO NOT HAVE THE ANSWERS. What I do know is that our tax system needs to be reworked, and supposed entitlements of government welfare should not be a career. You havent argued for a flat tax amount anywhere in this thread? Ok guy
I have discussed it as a "Belief" not a solution... And how is a flat tax worse than a progressive one again? |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:34:59 PM EDT
[#28]
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Actually if he is referring to rate as a % , then no, you do not agree Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It is only fair if the flat rate is the same for everyone, regardless of income...rich OR POOR. agreed Actually if he is referring to rate as a % , then no, you do not agree he said flat rate not flat percentage rate. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:35:31 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Abolish the income tax. I lean this way- I think I'd prefer purpose driven Tariffs and sales taxes. I'd like to see this with a vastly reduced government |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:36:29 PM EDT
[#30]
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I have discussed it as a "Belief" not a solution... And how is a flat tax worse than a progressive one again? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So you are not arguing for an income tax but a required citizens tax. Just like obamacare. Nice Where the fuck are you getting this? I am not arguing for anything. I am asking a question to get opinions. I will say it one more time I DO NOT HAVE THE ANSWERS. What I do know is that our tax system needs to be reworked, and supposed entitlements of government welfare should not be a career. You havent argued for a flat tax amount anywhere in this thread? Ok guy
I have discussed it as a "Belief" not a solution... And how is a flat tax worse than a progressive one again? And how is taxing every dollar earned exactly the same, across the board, unfair again? |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:37:25 PM EDT
[#31]
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I lean this way- I think I'd prefer purpose driven Tariffs and sales taxes. I'd like to see this with a vastly reduced government Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Abolish the income tax. I lean this way- I think I'd prefer purpose driven Tariffs and sales taxes. I'd like to see this with a vastly reduced government From a discussion point of view I can agree with this...but I believe that in reality we are way to far past this point to bring it about without a large loss of life and a civil war which is in a lot of ways worse. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:37:46 PM EDT
[#32]
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he said flat rate not flat percentage rate. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It is only fair if the flat rate is the same for everyone, regardless of income...rich OR POOR. agreed Actually if he is referring to rate as a % , then no, you do not agree he said flat rate not flat percentage rate. A "rate" is a percentage, more or less. It's the measure of some quantity vs. another, like tax:income. What you're looking for is a flat fee (and I agree). |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:38:47 PM EDT
[#33]
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And how is taxing every dollar earned exactly the same, across the board, unfair again? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So you are not arguing for an income tax but a required citizens tax. Just like obamacare. Nice Where the fuck are you getting this? I am not arguing for anything. I am asking a question to get opinions. I will say it one more time I DO NOT HAVE THE ANSWERS. What I do know is that our tax system needs to be reworked, and supposed entitlements of government welfare should not be a career. You havent argued for a flat tax amount anywhere in this thread? Ok guy
I have discussed it as a "Belief" not a solution... And how is a flat tax worse than a progressive one again? And how is taxing every dollar earned exactly the same, across the board, unfair again? Because you are making person "A" pay more than person "B" for just working harder or longer. hard work should not be punished with a tax. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:39:39 PM EDT
[#34]
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A "rate" is a percentage, more or less. It's the measure of some quantity vs. another, like tax:income. What you're looking for is a flat fee (and I agree). Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It is only fair if the flat rate is the same for everyone, regardless of income...rich OR POOR. agreed Actually if he is referring to rate as a % , then no, you do not agree he said flat rate not flat percentage rate. A "rate" is a percentage, more or less. It's the measure of some quantity vs. another, like tax:income. What you're looking for is a flat fee (and I agree). Yes "fee" or "amount" would fit better than "rate". |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:40:28 PM EDT
[#35]
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And how is taxing every dollar earned exactly the same, across the board, unfair again? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So you are not arguing for an income tax but a required citizens tax. Just like obamacare. Nice Where the fuck are you getting this? I am not arguing for anything. I am asking a question to get opinions. I will say it one more time I DO NOT HAVE THE ANSWERS. What I do know is that our tax system needs to be reworked, and supposed entitlements of government welfare should not be a career. You havent argued for a flat tax amount anywhere in this thread? Ok guy
I have discussed it as a "Belief" not a solution... And how is a flat tax worse than a progressive one again? And how is taxing every dollar earned exactly the same, across the board, unfair again? After reading his comments, the base of his argument is that he wants to pay less taxes. That's it. He doesn't care who else pays, as long as he pays less. No deeper though required. He couches it as a "belief", because he doesn't want to come right out and say that he thinks everyone else should pay his share of taxes. For example, the fact that even those with zero income must pay - a punishment must logically follow, creating a debtors prison and permanent slave underclass. That always works well for social, economic and government stability. lol ETA: I will say that shrinking the size of government is the only path to a real solution. A flat tax rate would be good, but a real solution would be to stop withholding. Make everyone cut a check on April 15th for their tax amount. Shit will hit the fan right away. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:41:42 PM EDT
[#36]
I'd like to see income tax eliminated completely, however a flat percentage is far better than a progressive tax scale.
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:46:43 PM EDT
[#37]
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After reading his comments, the base of his argument is that he wants to pay less taxes. That's it. He doesn't care who else pays, as long as he pays less. No deeper though required. He couches it as a "belief", because he doesn't want to come right out and say that he thinks everyone else should pay his share of taxes. For example, the fact that even those with zero income must pay - a punishment must logically follow, creating a debtors prison and permanent slave underclass. That always works well for social, economic and government stability. lol Wrong...I want the non paying people to actually pay taxes and not get huge benefits each year without having skin in the game. Yet I don't have a solution that would not in the long run turn out to be debtors prison or out right slavery to the government. But go on and keep thinking I am saying something I am not. you guys are taking what I am saying and spinning 180 degrees somehow.. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:51:22 PM EDT
[#38]
there is only one fair tax. that's the voluntary tax.
ie- booze tax, lottery, coffee& energy drinks tax, tobacco,vape, suntan, and marijuana, tax. I go back and forth on a luxury tax on items such as jewelry, fancy cars, boats, and other major non business purpose centered purchases. I believe the best tax is an export tax or a tariff on our trading partners but that would require repealing the commerce clause out of the constitution so forget that idea, |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:53:11 PM EDT
[#39]
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Because you are making person "A" pay more than person "B" for just working harder or longer. hard work should not be punished with a tax. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Where the fuck are you getting this? I am not arguing for anything. I am asking a question to get opinions. I will say it one more time I DO NOT HAVE THE ANSWERS. What I do know is that our tax system needs to be reworked, and supposed entitlements of government welfare should not be a career. You havent argued for a flat tax amount anywhere in this thread? Ok guy
I have discussed it as a "Belief" not a solution... And how is a flat tax worse than a progressive one again? And how is taxing every dollar earned exactly the same, across the board, unfair again? Because you are making person "A" pay more than person "B" for just working harder or longer. hard work should not be punished with a tax. Um.... making more money does not necessarily mean working harder or longer. Person A knows that each dollar earned gets taxed at 10%. They are not being punished for making more money. Everyone pays the same tax for each dollar earned. That is the definition of fair In a marginal tax system they are punished for making more money. That is unfair. I am guessing you do not actually know how a marginal tax system works either |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:55:38 PM EDT
[#40]
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Wrong...I want the non paying people to actually pay taxes and not get huge benefits each year without having skin in the game. Yet I don't have a solution that would not in the long run turn out to be debtors prison or out right slavery to the government. But go on and keep thinking I am saying something I am not. you guys are taking what I am saying and spinning 180 degrees somehow.. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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After reading his comments, the base of his argument is that he wants to pay less taxes. That's it. He doesn't care who else pays, as long as he pays less. No deeper though required. He couches it as a "belief", because he doesn't want to come right out and say that he thinks everyone else should pay his share of taxes. For example, the fact that even those with zero income must pay - a punishment must logically follow, creating a debtors prison and permanent slave underclass. That always works well for social, economic and government stability. lol Wrong...I want the non paying people to actually pay taxes and not get huge benefits each year without having skin in the game. Yet I don't have a solution that would not in the long run turn out to be debtors prison or out right slavery to the government. But go on and keep thinking I am saying something I am not. you guys are taking what I am saying and spinning 180 degrees somehow.. I understand, but taxes are never fair, there is no real solution. People either pay more than they can afford and end up slaves to the government or pay less than they should and take advantage of that fact, or those who make more pay more dollars, due to the fact they have a larger economic footprint. If we want the government to provide services, we have to pay. The goal should be to shrink the government to the smallest and cheapest size possible. Fund what we can through strategic tariffs, and then we as citizens have to pay for the rest. The argument comes down to "what do you want the government to provide, and which level of government should be responsible for that". Arguing on how much, or what rate, each person has to pay is ignoring the elephant in the room. We should worry about reducing the government. It's unsustainable at this point. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 1:59:08 PM EDT
[#41]
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I understand, but taxes are never fair, there is no real solution. People either pay more than they can afford and end up slaves to the government or pay less than they should and take advantage of that fact, or those who make more pay more dollars, due to the fact they have a larger economic footprint. If we want the government to provide services, we have to pay. The goal should be to shrink the government to the smallest and cheapest size possible. Fund what we can through strategic tariffs, and then we as citizens have to pay for the rest. The argument comes down to "what do you want the government to provide, and which level of government should be responsible for that". Arguing on how much, or what rate, each person has to pay is ignoring the elephant in the room. We should worry about reducing the government. It's unsustainable at this point. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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After reading his comments, the base of his argument is that he wants to pay less taxes. That's it. He doesn't care who else pays, as long as he pays less. No deeper though required. He couches it as a "belief", because he doesn't want to come right out and say that he thinks everyone else should pay his share of taxes. For example, the fact that even those with zero income must pay - a punishment must logically follow, creating a debtors prison and permanent slave underclass. That always works well for social, economic and government stability. lol Wrong...I want the non paying people to actually pay taxes and not get huge benefits each year without having skin in the game. Yet I don't have a solution that would not in the long run turn out to be debtors prison or out right slavery to the government. But go on and keep thinking I am saying something I am not. you guys are taking what I am saying and spinning 180 degrees somehow.. I understand, but taxes are never fair, there is no real solution. People either pay more than they can afford and end up slaves to the government or pay less than they should and take advantage of that fact, or those who make more pay more dollars, due to the fact they have a larger economic footprint. If we want the government to provide services, we have to pay. The goal should be to shrink the government to the smallest and cheapest size possible. Fund what we can through strategic tariffs, and then we as citizens have to pay for the rest. The argument comes down to "what do you want the government to provide, and which level of government should be responsible for that". Arguing on how much, or what rate, each person has to pay is ignoring the elephant in the room. We should worry about reducing the government. It's unsustainable at this point. I know this that is why I keep using the words "philosophical discussion" and not "best tax reform ever" LOL And I agree the best way to combat our current tax situation is to get a smaller government AND stop entitlements of welfare. 
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Posted: 5/24/2016 2:03:16 PM EDT
[#42]
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Um.... making more money does not necessarily mean working harder or longer. lets say we are talking about two individuals that make the same rate per hour Person A knows that each dollar earned gets taxed at 10%. They are not being punished for making more money. Everyone pays the same tax for each dollar earned. That is the definition of fair no the definition of fair would be that they paid same flat amount In a marginal tax system they are punished for making more money. That is unfair. I am guessing you do not actually know how a marginal tax system works either wrong |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 2:04:30 PM EDT
[#43]
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Under a 10% flat tax rate they are paying less than $100. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? How is giving 10% not equal? Because $10000 does not equal $1000 Why should one guy have to pay more than the next form the exact same thing? What if someone makes less than $1000 in a year? Should they pay 150% tax rate? Under a 10% flat tax rate they are paying less than $100. Yes, but a flat tax is still effectively a percentage. OP posits that everyone owes yearly xxx dollars, regardless of income. A stay at home wife could conceivably be on the hook for tat flat dollar amount even though she made $0. He isn't saying fair/flat tax, he's saying a fixed dollar amount that doesn't scale with income. How can someone who doesn't make money be on the hook for tax on income? Head tax is one of the major reasons the USA even exists.....lest we forget. OP is arguing for a frigging head tax. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 2:04:46 PM EDT
[#44]
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I'd like to see income tax eliminated completely, however a flat percentage is far better than a progressive tax scale. I would to, but the problem with any single-type tax scheme is that cheating it becomes far too lucrative. For instance, if there was just a sales tax, it would be so high that smuggling would become incredibly profitable. By spreading the tax burden around to different tax schemes, it makes cheating them far less tempting. Agree with a preference for a flat tax, too. A progressive tax scale is just another welfare scam to buy votes. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 2:09:50 PM EDT
[#45]
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Yes, but a flat tax is still effectively a percentage. OP posits that everyone owes yearly xxx dollars, regardless of income. A stay at home wife could conceivably be on the hook for tat flat dollar amount even though she made $0. He isn't saying fair/flat tax, he's saying a fixed dollar amount that doesn't scale with income. How can someone who doesn't make money be on the hook for tax on income? Head tax is one of the major reasons the USA even exists.....lest we forget. OP is arguing for a frigging head tax. I am arguing for a tax reform and have stated that a " a flat tax amount" while sounding good doesn't work in the long run.. What I would like is smaller government...a better tax/budget plan. and the stopping of entitlements as a career.. Again stop making claims about what I am saying when it is not what I am saying and understand for the 100 damn time this is nothing more than a "Philosophical" discussion and not a fix for our current tax situation in this country. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 2:16:01 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No only because no tax system is fair. A guy working 40 hours a week making $20/hour pays the same taxes as a guy working 80 horus week @ 10$/hour. 40hrs @ $20 = $800 pretax income 40hrs @ $10 + 40hrs OT @ $15 = $1000 pretax income  |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 2:17:38 PM EDT
[#47]
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Million dollar question. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What should the fixed dollars amount be? Million dollar question. About $12K each if the current total of collected income tax and payroll tax is maintained. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 2:19:52 PM EDT
[#48]
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I am arguing for a tax reform and have stated that a " a flat tax amount" while sounding good doesn't work in the long run.. What I would like is smaller government...a better tax/budget plan. and the stopping of entitlements as a career.. Again stop making claims about what I am saying when it is not what I am saying and understand for the 100 damn time this is nothing more than a "Philosophical" discussion and not a fix for our current tax situation in this country. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yes, but a flat tax is still effectively a percentage. OP posits that everyone owes yearly xxx dollars, regardless of income. A stay at home wife could conceivably be on the hook for tat flat dollar amount even though she made $0. He isn't saying fair/flat tax, he's saying a fixed dollar amount that doesn't scale with income. How can someone who doesn't make money be on the hook for tax on income? Head tax is one of the major reasons the USA even exists.....lest we forget. OP is arguing for a frigging head tax. I am arguing for a tax reform and have stated that a " a flat tax amount" while sounding good doesn't work in the long run.. What I would like is smaller government...a better tax/budget plan. and the stopping of entitlements as a career.. Again stop making claims about what I am saying when it is not what I am saying and understand for the 100 damn time this is nothing more than a "Philosophical" discussion and not a fix for our current tax situation in this country. There is nothing philosophical about it You have repeatedly made the same dumb ass claim that the only 'fair' tax scheme is one in which everyone pays the same fixed fee, whether they work or not. You continue to state that everyone paying the same tax % on their income is not fair For wanting a 'philosophical discussion' you are not very open to actual ways to make the tax system fair and are rather dense when it comes to understanding anything outside the very small activity going on in your brain |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 2:20:24 PM EDT
[#49]
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About $12K each if the current total of collected income tax and payroll tax is maintained. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What should the fixed dollars amount be? Million dollar question. About $12K each if the current total of collected income tax and payroll tax is maintained. not sustainable without some major fall backs.. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 2:20:35 PM EDT
[#50]
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I know this that is why I keep using the words "philosophical discussion" and not "best tax reform ever" LOL And I agree the best way to combat our current tax situation is to get a smaller government AND stop entitlements of welfare. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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After reading his comments, the base of his argument is that he wants to pay less taxes. That's it. He doesn't care who else pays, as long as he pays less. No deeper though required. He couches it as a "belief", because he doesn't want to come right out and say that he thinks everyone else should pay his share of taxes. For example, the fact that even those with zero income must pay - a punishment must logically follow, creating a debtors prison and permanent slave underclass. That always works well for social, economic and government stability. lol Wrong...I want the non paying people to actually pay taxes and not get huge benefits each year without having skin in the game. Yet I don't have a solution that would not in the long run turn out to be debtors prison or out right slavery to the government. But go on and keep thinking I am saying something I am not. you guys are taking what I am saying and spinning 180 degrees somehow.. I understand, but taxes are never fair, there is no real solution. People either pay more than they can afford and end up slaves to the government or pay less than they should and take advantage of that fact, or those who make more pay more dollars, due to the fact they have a larger economic footprint. If we want the government to provide services, we have to pay. The goal should be to shrink the government to the smallest and cheapest size possible. Fund what we can through strategic tariffs, and then we as citizens have to pay for the rest. The argument comes down to "what do you want the government to provide, and which level of government should be responsible for that". Arguing on how much, or what rate, each person has to pay is ignoring the elephant in the room. We should worry about reducing the government. It's unsustainable at this point. I know this that is why I keep using the words "philosophical discussion" and not "best tax reform ever" LOL And I agree the best way to combat our current tax situation is to get a smaller government AND stop entitlements of welfare. The philosophical discussion should be about how to reduce the tax amount, not argue how we pay it. It's almost a red herring. There is no answer for a tax that is fair, for that means no tax at all. If we are going to pay taxes, then it should be the smallest amount possible. As to how that should be paid, well the best way would be to structure it in such a way that everyone will be willing and able to pay their reasonable amount. Find a way to reduce tax avoidance. Having poor people pay their entire income, or rich people pay 90% - either is bad policy. |
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