First and foremost, I want to make it VERY clear, I am selling this rifle. Considering it's monetary value it isn't worth it to me to hold onto as a family heirloom. I have other family heirlooms/firearms that a very sentimental pieces including a few WWII bring backs and more. PLEASE, I'm not looking for the expected "you should really keep it" responses. I've thought long and hard(years) about selling it and have decided I AM going to.  

I inherited the Winchester 92 in .44WCF(made in 1917 IIRC) from my grandmother who grew up on the 101 Ranch(Miller Brothers Ranch) down in Oklahoma. Considering it's age, it's in pretty good condition. The rifle was initially given to my grandmother with a letter(in 1974-postmarked envelope). I still have the letter sealed in a Zip-Lock. In the letter my great grandmother states that she was given the rifle by Col. Zack Miller, part owner of the famous ranch. It also states in the letter that the rifle was used by the famous black/Native American cowboy Bill Pickett and also the movie actor Col. Zack Mulhall. She said Zack Mulhall "borrowed it from me to shoot a buffalo."

So, I've been shopping it around, first to 101 Ranch affiliated organizations and then to auction houses. I sent out a good amount of emails with pictures and scanned copies of the letter. I didn't hear anything for a while and then I got a call from a couple auction house guys. One mentioned it might be worth as much as $20,000-$30,000. Of course at an auction, it could sell for a TON less, would take a while, and there'd be a fee to consider. Two days ago well known collector and was offered $10,000 for it. I honestly wasn't surprised at the offer and figured it could be worth that or even a considerable amount more. So I took his information down and told him I'd think about it. Now I'm not in a huge hurry to sell the rifle, but a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. That being said, I'd be kicking myself in the ass forever if it went to auction after I sold it and it sold for $50,000 or something crazy. To top it off I spoke with another auction house appraiser, from one of the largest auction houses, and he said that it could very well go for over $25,000. He'd recommend a reserve around $7500 though. He said that it could get a full page in their catalog and the auction would be in October.

BTW I don't have a "Cody letter," but I DO have the letter from my great grandmother, and the ATF stating it's removal from the NFA list via C&R status.  

What the hell is the right play here guys? I really could use the money but I'm not broke. I'd just hate to give it away for a lot less than what it's potentially worth. I'm pretty sure that the $10,000 probably isn't gonna cut it and I did mention a counter offer of $20,000. I'm thinking, if he can do that, I might just let him have it. What say you?

Here's pics:

Nice gun.

Only thing I have is hit as many collector websites as you can find and inquire as to it's worth. You might get a good bite, or at least what a reserve at auction should be.

ETA I'd ask the auction houses if you can set your own reserve.

I'm in the gun auction business as an appraiser...if he told you to set the reserve that low then he believes it might only bring $3000 to $5000 more than that at auction in the current market. Either hold on to it or set the reserve at what YOUR research tells you the value is. The provenance letters help your case a lot. A Cody letter would help even more to authenticate it.

Just my .02 cents.

Take it to Pawn Stars.



Or gunbroker. And shoot high in price.

This.  Auction w/reserve.

Very nice.

That's one hell of a rifle,OP!  I have no advice to give, but best of luck on whatever decision you make.  Thanks for sharing!

Put the fucker on the EE for $25,000 OBO fir a week and see what happens. No listing fees so at worst you're out a few minutes of time listing it. I've seen NFA bring that(so the money's there), we're bound to have some high end Winchester collectors on here. Someone willing to spend that much might be willing to travel for it too, so shipping might not be necessary.

Is there any way to verify that the letter is 100% accurate?  Any other way to prove it belonged to Miller, or used by any of the other people mentioned (other than by the letter)?

Awesome old rifle.  What is the history with Bill Pickett just besides that he used it?  Do you know for how long, what for, etc.?   That information could help the value as Bill Pickett is a well known figure of the west.

Its a beautiful rifle, but provenance is going to be the key.  The letter *might* be enough, but some collectors may require more verification as to the history on the gun.

Grew up just North of Mulhall, and I'm familiar with the Miller Brothers too.

I'd trust one of the big name auction houses, put a reserve on it.

By the way, I know of another rifle, just like yours, that is less than 20 miles from Mulhall.

put in auction with one of the two firearms auction houses that you know the name of

I have seen two of these sell at "local" auction houses.  (Nothing is local anymore with good advertising.)

Neither were on the ATF exempt list they publish and I was part of a conversation debating what that meant regarding pricing at one of the auctions.

Both sold for north of $8k......

I spoke with James D. Julia auction house and they said I COULD set the reserve for whatever I wanted but if it didn't sell then I'd have to pay a marketing fee. On the bright side, they only charge 10% of the sale, and if it sells for $20,000 then they wouldn't take anything from the seller(just the buyer).

I'm telling ya, this is a tough decision. If I could get $20,000 or more I'd be tempted to sell it outside of an auction. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Then again if it later sold for $50,000 I'd be kicking myself forever.

BTW Thanks everyone for brainstorming with me on this decision. I really appreciate all the help.

Here's a scan of the letter and envelope:

Its a very interesting piece of history, I'm just curious how much provenance the letter provides.  Looks like similar guns sold at auction for $8k, which would net around $7k or so to the seller (not sure how much fees are at the different auction houses).  Question will be, is the letter enough to command twice that price (or more) at auction?  Auctions can be fickle things, but you do have some protection with a reserve price...problem is, it still costs you money (even if it doesn't sell).  

I would think a serious collector would want stronger verification, especially someone willing to drop $20k or more on the gun.  Of course, that is just my opinion, who knows what could happen at auction.

If Bill picket hunted with it, in my opinion, yes.  I'd love to have it, but with the oilfields current state I simply can't spend 20 grand this month.

Damn cool. If it's worth as much as you think good luck.....Was it originally like that or did someone cut the barrel down? If not original might hurt the value

Isnt there a leverguns forum somewhere? Not ARFCOM related.....Like a Winchester collector forum somewhere. Join the forum and post up in classifieds

Absolutely....but is the letter enough proof to convince a collector to shell out $15-20k or more?

Gun is about $7-10k worth as it stands. Needs more provenance to boost it into higher territory. Your grandma's letter is not enough.

If ATF approved it as non-NFA it's most likely originally a factory short barrel. I'd love to have it but it's well out of my reach.

Bill says in the letter a 44-40 will knock a coyote down at half a mile ! That's some 44-40 ! Ballistics charts show the 44-40 has close to a 10 in drop with a 200 grain bullet at 150 yards, wonder what it is at 800+ yards ?

I've seen several Trappers, but they were all based on the carbine configuration. Yours is essentially a trapper-length rifle, not a carbine. It's a pretty neat-looking gun, but no serious Winchester collector is going to touch it without a Cody letter verifying that it left the factory with its' current barrel length.

A Cody letter is only $50 or so. Why have you not gotten one already?

There's a couple world renowned Winchester collectors/appraisers/dealers who think differently. They've seen detailed pictures of the rifle, including measurements of the forearm(illustrated specifically in the pictures next to a tape measure), and they seem to think it's legit enough to offer $10,000+ for it. What the hell do they know though lol.

As far as the Cody letter is concerned, I'm probably going to get one soon. That being said, a couple of the folks interested said that, while it is a good thing to have, any good collector is going to be able to identify it without the help of the letter. In fact only one of them even mentioned the letter.

In regards to the barrel length. When I first got the rifle, before I knew that these specific rifles were exempt via C&R status, I was freaking out about the barrel length and called the BATFE about it. They had me send it in to them and had their Winchester Trapper guy look at it to verify it wasn't modified after manufacture. He said that he had worked on a ton of them . When I spoke with him he believed firmly that it was manufactured with the shorter barrel, not cut down. He wasn't just a "agent" but a collector who dealt specifically with these types of rifles.  

Get a Cody Letter ............... there are a lot of fake Winchester Trappers around.

No one can give you a serious quote without one.

Nice letter from your great-grandmother, but does not do any thing as far as authenticity.

Your gun was made in 1915 (S/N 820446).

From Blue Book Of Gun Values:


MODEL 1892 TRAPPER'S CARBINE

All features similar to standard SRC, except has a 12, 14, 15, 16, or 18 in. barrel, so called Trapper's Model because it was handy for trappers who had to carry a powerful but lightweight repeating rifle.

Grading:
100% 98% 95% 90% 80% 70% 60% 50% 40% 30% 20% 10%
N/A N/A $14,250 $11,750 $8,950 $7,400 $6,350 $4,225 $3,350 $2,400 $1,875 $1,250

Most 1892 Trapper's Carbines are in the 15 in., .44-40 WCF cal. configuration. Most of the 1892 Trapper's Carbine were shipped to South America or Australia. This variation is almost never encountered over 30% condition - most are brown guns. Check federal laws regarding 12, 14 and 15 inch barrels.



Your Winchester 1892 Trapper is 50% at best.

YMMV

Examples:

My Winchester 1873 in 22SHORT made in 1890 - 50%:




My Winchester 1907 made in 1907 (restored) - 95%

This.  OP wants $20K for Grandma's old gun with a letter from granny but won't drop the $50 on a factory letter??!?!

Shenanigans!

I AM getting the letter.

There are some real characters here on ARFCOM. They hate themselves, life, and everyone around them. They come into threads like this, where everyone is being respectful and friendly to each other, and start throwing barbs at people. They truly get joy out of trying to bring people down. I guess they think that will somehow mitigate the shitty way they feel.

I just came here asking for help. I don't think I was disrespectful to anyone or did anything warranting the snide remarks. I don't mind criticism at all if it's constructive, in fact I welcome it.

To everyone else who's given helpful insight, I really appreciate it.

Well, you didn't seem so certain earlier in the thread:




Let me make an analogy for you - I come onto a Honda board and say I have a 1967 split window Corvette with a letter from my grandmother saying Zora Arkus-Duntov owned the car and raced it at Sebring but gave it to her as a wedding gift after he lost her to my granddad.  I think it should be a million-dollar car, but maybe I'll sell it on Craigslist for $100,000.  Grandma's letter though, should make all the difference, right?  I'd hate to lose out on the million.  I've not bothered getting a letter from GM showing Zora actually owned it, but that's ok because some guy who's an expert on Corvettes told me he believes me.


You'd call B.S. in a heartbeat.  Throw in expecting to counter-offer someone at DOUBLE what they offered...


Taken in the most positive light possible, you have something that you believe could star in a reality TV show and make you some serious money, but you're not quite motivated enough to take the first step.  You're in the wrongest place (GD) of the wrong place (ARFCOM) to ask about that gun, but WE'RE the ones at fault for not taking you seriously?

Sing along with 'The Steve Miller Band';
"Go on, take the twenty (grand) and run"

That's crazy.  Did you have to mail it in, or was there a local office you were able to drive to?

I had to ship it to them. It wasn't exactly something I was excited to do. This was probably 8yrs ago though and I had no idea of the value at the time.

I costed probably $50 for me to ship it and after the BATFE got done with it, I got a notification from them. It said that I had to pay $100 to get the rifle shipped back to me(otherwise they'd keep it). Pieces of shit.

I spoke with Sotheby's today and sent them some info on the rifle. They're not exactly an auction house that specializes in firearms but there's a lot more eyes on their auctions.

Good luck. Hope everything works out-and you get the right buyer. Interesting rifle in any case, thanks for posting the pics.

since this is GD.....

You should really take some flitz and a polishing wheel to it.   Once it's shined up and looking purdy, I bet the value will change by, like a ton.  bro.  

you sent the gun to the ATF and they sent it to a collector.... interesting...

No, they didn't send it to a collector. The BATFE agent who handled the trappers for them was a collector/aficionado of older Winchester rifles. He was very knowledgeable and gave me some good info.  

Interesting thread.......very similar to This one

So is this rifle actually listed on the NFA C&R list?

Every post-1898 Winchester "Trapper" with less than a 16" bbl, that is NFA exempt, is specifically listed/exempted by serial number.......they are not just "removed"......

They are all listed here:
NFA C&R list

and the list was updated with additional serial #'s here:
Updated/current list with additional serial #'s listed

It shows under the serial number 820446 in the letter as exempt from the NFA with a 14" barrel.......


Section III — Firearms removed from the provisions of the National Firearms
     
 Act and classified as curios or relics, still subject to the provisions of 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, the Gun Control Act of 1968.


Winchester, Model 1892, caliber .44WCF, S/N 820446, with 14-inch barrel.

The Blue Book also gives a historical value ranging from 2006 to 2016:


Year 100% 98% 95% 90% 80% 70% 60% 50% 40% 30% 20% 10%
2016N/A N/A$14,250$11,750$8,950$7,400$6,350$4,225$3,350$2,400$1,875$1,250
2015N/A N/A$14,250$11,750$8,950$7,400$6,350$4,225$3,350$2,400$1,875$1,250
2014N/A N/A$14,250$11,750$8,950$7,400$6,350$4,225$3,350$2,400$1,875$1,250
2013N/A N/A$14,250$11,750$8,950$7,400$6,350$4,225$3,350$2,400$1,875$1,250
2012N/A N/A$14,250$11,750$8,950$7,400$6,350$4,225$3,350$2,400$1,875$1,250
2011N/A N/A$13,750$11,250$8,750$7,250$6,250$4,100$3,250$2,300$1,775$1,150
2010N/A N/A$13,750$11,250$8,750$7,250$6,250$4,100$3,250$2,300$1,775$1,150
2009N/A N/A$13,750$11,250$8,750$7,250$6,250$3,600$2,950$2,200$1,775$1,150
2008N/A N/A$9,250$8,000$6,325$5,250$4,200$3,600$2,950$2,200$1,775$1,150
2007N/A N/A$8,000$7,000$5,500$4,550$3,650$3,150$2,550$1,925$1,550$1,000
2006N/A N/A$8,000$7,000$5,500$4,550$3,650$3,150$2,550$1,925$1,550$1,000

Those auction houses are giving you pie in the sky numbers so you will consign with them. I see a beat up Winchester with an unverifiable, shaky provenance. Serious collectors buy the gun, not the story. Take the $10,0000 and run.

Steve

Good catch! I didn't notice the SN in the letter posted above!

Take the $10k.

People who get excited about a letter from grandma aren't buying collector grade firearms.

I was thinking of getting a Cody letter on the M1886 in .40-82 WCF I acquired recently. It has the special ordered 28" rapid-taper octagon barrel.

I'm lucky enough to have two Winchester experts (one was a certified appraiser) in town and both told me a Cody letter is a crap shoot as they often omit the special order features which can actually hurt the value if there are features on the rifle present that were omitted in the letter.  

They said it's not Cody's fault but it seems Winchester was very lax in recording special order features (especially barrel length) and doubly so if the rifle went back to Winchester for upgrades/repair.

As I am keeping it I decided to forgo the Cody letter but were I to sell it I would roll the dice on a letter....It's not like you have to mention it if the features on your rifle do not show-up in the letter but if it does you are golden.

Here's some examples from the Rock Island Auction Company:
- www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/56/lid/9
- www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/56/lid/16
- www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/56/lid/22

Others for sale:
- www.gunsamerica.com/937005340/ALL-ORIGINAL-ULTRA-RARE-WINCHESTER-TRAPPER-1873-15-INCH-BUTTON-MAG-SADDLE-RING-CARBINE.htm
- www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-model-1892/winchester-model-92-trapper-44-40.cfm?gun_id=100688411
- www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-model-1892/winchester-1892-14-trapper.cfm?gun_id=100687179 (Very similar to the OP's - includes Cody/BATF letter/made in 1919)
- www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-model-1892/winchester-92-trapper.cfm?gun_id=100631879