User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 7:06:00 PM EDT
[#1]
So, sipping Chi tea with the prisoner works then?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 7:09:40 PM EDT
[#2]
Johnny Songbird is a fucking moron. He and Hanoi Jane the cunt should fo back to Vietnam and stay.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 7:09:55 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You won't find many interrogators who have used it for the US. We only acknowledge that we used it on 3 people. We have essentially no data to draw a conclusion from. Obama decided to release interrogaton methods but not the results. The likely reason is that results were obtained, and he wants to hide that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It isn't nonsense at all, and your response doesn't even address what I was saying. The point is, it isn't defended for it's results, it's defended and condemned largely along political party ideology. But you won't find too many interrogators, if any, who will sit there and tell you we;re missing out on anything because waterboarding is the only or even best way to get the info and we'e no longer using it. You won't find many interrogators who have used it for the US. We only acknowledge that we used it on 3 people. We have essentially no data to draw a conclusion from. Obama decided to release interrogaton methods but not the results. The likely reason is that results were obtained, and he wants to hide that. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 7:14:03 PM EDT
[#4]
Fact is that waterboarding/"enhanced interrogation techniques" has approximately a 25% or less rate of producing accurate information.
If physically punishing the bad guys makes you feel better, fine. But don't kid yourself that it is remotely a useful method of interrogation. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 7:14:41 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would point out that being least effective, and being ineffective are two different things. I'm sure that under certain circumstances, it's the best option. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There is a reason SERE school teaches the stuff they do. Were you aware that in SERE school one of the things they explain is that torture is among the least effective techniques in extracting good intel? That's the result of PC think. It isn't rooted in facts. Yeah, the staff at SERE are morons, what the hell would they know?  I would point out that being least effective, and being ineffective are two different things. I'm sure that under certain circumstances, it's the best option. You're sure based on what? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 7:45:13 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Exactly, the left likes to think we have a bunch of rednecks that just pour water in peoples faces to get a chubby out of it. Interrogation is carefully controlled. Its more about the mind games and the "enhanced techniques" are simply punishment for when the subject is dishonest. Thats why you ask control questions, things you already know the answer to. Punish untruthfulness severely enough and the lying stops. A couple of the smartest people I've known were interrogators. They were anything but rednecks. More like clergymen, if anything. Adversive stimulus, as mentioned above and in other posts, is but one tool. Condition appropriate responses, provide negative feedback for inappropriate responses. It's applied psychology with specific goals and sometimes compressed timeframes. Strong reinforcement against unwanted behavior is quick for results, but used as a sole tool will be counterproductive. Think of training a dog. If you beat it all the time, it only fears you. If you reward good behavior and set firm limits with swift reinforcement, he'll drop his food from his mouth into your hand. If you look at scientific definitions of "pain" from groups who study it, there is a strong psychological component. "Pain" can be produced by anticipation or even by nonharmful stimuli. It's a psychological and experiential phenomenon. A maniac who inflicts pain without reason will likely get maniacal results instead of steering behavior of a subject. Then again, I'm no interrogator and am largely talking out of my blowhole. I just happen to know about pain, and have read up a bit on operant conditioning. Feel free to point out errors. 
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 8:21:32 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're sure based on what? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Were you aware that in SERE school one of the things they explain is that torture is among the least effective techniques in extracting good intel? That's the result of PC think. It isn't rooted in facts. Yeah, the staff at SERE are morons, what the hell would they know? I would point out that being least effective, and being ineffective are two different things. I'm sure that under certain circumstances, it's the best option. You're sure based on what? Based on the number of possible scenarios that could exist. If you need to know something to save a life, you know your guy has the answer, you don't have any sodium pentothal in your pocket, but you have water hose... |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 8:23:14 PM EDT
[#8]
Attacking trump is the best way McCain can help him! Thank you Sir!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 8:25:00 PM EDT
[#9]
Waterboarding might not, but throwing one prisoner out of a helicopter and then interrogating the other one certainly gets your point across. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 8:48:58 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Based on the number of possible scenarios that could exist. If you need to know something to save a life, you know your guy has the answer, you don't have any sodium pentothal in your pocket, but you have water hose... Number of scenarios doesn't equal an effective technique. Given an infinite number of situations, a peanut butter sandwich and a back rub with yield you the results you want at least once, that's no reason to believe it's effective on the whole. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 8:53:41 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Waterboarding works. No man can hold out forever, yes, they will try to lie. They will tell you what you want to hear. However, punish them for the lies and the lies will stop. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Arizona, you know what needs to be done. Oh, believe me, if I could get away with waterboarding McCain until he resigns and moves to Russia, I'd have done it by now. Waterboarding works. No man can hold out forever, yes, they will try to lie. They will tell you what you want to hear. However, punish them for the lies and the lies will stop. Which means you have to ask questions that you do already absolutely know the answers to - lots of them - so you can establish that pattern of punishing the lies, then slip in the question that you don't know the answer to. I guess McStain thinks our interrogators are too stupid to figure that out on their own. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 8:57:38 PM EDT
[#12]
Yeah, isn't it pretty well established that using torture and "enhanced interrogation" will get people to say what they think you want to hear?
Didn't we learn this in medieval Europe long ago? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 9:01:29 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So what exactly did the NVA do to get him to talk so freely? It was mostly malnutrition. Lack of Vitamins, minerals, and enough calories keeps your mind from working properly. It makes it much easier to convince a person that spilling the beans is what they want to do. It is an essential component of brainwashing someone. The other highly effective technique the NVA used was to get some low level guy to turn. (capture enough people and you will get someone who takes little to no convincing, especially in a draft era) Then you treat the guy who turns like a relative king, in front of the guys who won't break easily. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 9:27:08 PM EDT
[#14]
I bet he would blanch at some of the ARVN methods. Dad (ASA in Vietnam 65-66, 1st cav 68-70, 71-73) described a ARVN ranger collecting info with 4 VC and a helicopter. Said he thought they were going to have to shoot the last guy to shut him up. The US would/should never sanction such actions but it was "their country, their rules"
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 9:29:42 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I, for one, am not in favor of using torture of any kind against prisoners - that includes waterboarding. Any of you cheerleaders for that kind of shit are messed up. If we sanction waterboarding or worse, it *will* be used on our guys as well. I agree. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 9:35:13 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, the staff at SERE are morons, what the hell would they know? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There is a reason SERE school teaches the stuff they do. Were you aware that in SERE school one of the things they explain is that torture is among the least effective techniques in extracting good intel? That's the result of PC think. It isn't rooted in facts. Yeah, the staff at SERE are morons, what the hell would they know? No, my point is that the "torture doesn't work" claim has been pushed out as the PC answer. And that the staff at SERE are not actually involved in extracting intel from the bad guys. "Don't use it it doesn't work". They are not gonna say "Yeah, it works fine but don't use it". |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 9:37:54 PM EDT
[#17]
well it got us to bin laden....
http://bernardgoldberg.com/panetta-confirms-again-that-waterboarding-helped-get-bid-laden-media-still-confused/ |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 9:39:15 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Arizona, you know what needs to be done. But they will not do it. I support water boarding. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 9:40:31 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It was mostly malnutrition. Lack of Vitamins, minerals, and enough calories keeps your mind from working properly. It makes it much easier to convince a person that spilling the beans is what they want to do. It is an essential component of brainwashing someone. The other highly effective technique the NVA used was to get some low level guy to turn. (capture enough people and you will get someone who takes little to no convincing, especially in a draft era) Then you treat the guy who turns like a relative king, in front of the guys who won't break easily. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So what exactly did the NVA do to get him to talk so freely? It was mostly malnutrition. Lack of Vitamins, minerals, and enough calories keeps your mind from working properly. It makes it much easier to convince a person that spilling the beans is what they want to do. It is an essential component of brainwashing someone. The other highly effective technique the NVA used was to get some low level guy to turn. (capture enough people and you will get someone who takes little to no convincing, especially in a draft era) Then you treat the guy who turns like a relative king, in front of the guys who won't break easily. It's been a long time but the book Raid (about the Son Tay Raid) mentioned they would suspend POWs from their wrists and dislocate their should joints, IIRC. NVA used real torture. The Son Tay Raid hit the prison and scared the hell out of commie intel. The Russians were spooked the US could hit a place about 25 miles from Hanoi, break a lot of shit and get out. We killed several hundred non-Vietnamese troops there, but didn't rescue a single POW. They were all moved not long before the raid and CIA didn't notify the army. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 9:42:47 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, we could use whatever the VC did to him, as it seemed to have worked.  IIRC, I saw in a documentary that the North Vietnamese called him the Song Bird. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 9:43:12 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
well it got us to bin laden.... http://bernardgoldberg.com/panetta-confirms-again-that-waterboarding-helped-get-bid-laden-media-still-confused/ Can't be allowed to become the narrative . . . |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 9:51:51 PM EDT
[#22]
McCain said the best way to get information is to be a friend of the prisoner and develop a relationship over time. nuke is in route and active....... mccain.... "be a friend of the prisoner and develop a relationship over time......." ROP has kidnapped mccain's daughter and has promised to cut her ti.....head off......"be a friend of the prisoner and develop a relationship over time......." |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 9:59:06 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Number of scenarios doesn't equal an effective technique. Given an infinite number of situations, a peanut butter sandwich and a back rub with yield you the results you want at least once, that's no reason to believe it's effective on the whole. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Based on the number of possible scenarios that could exist. If you need to know something to save a life, you know your guy has the answer, you don't have any sodium pentothal in your pocket, but you have water hose... Number of scenarios doesn't equal an effective technique. Given an infinite number of situations, a peanut butter sandwich and a back rub with yield you the results you want at least once, that's no reason to believe it's effective on the whole. Okay, I can accept that it is not very affective. I have no knowledge of that, and was assuming that they wouldn't use it if it didn't yield positive results. I was speaking to the moral side of the issue. IF it yields results, I believe there are times when it would be justified. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 10:04:40 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, isn't it pretty well established that using torture and "enhanced interrogation" will get people to say what they think you want to hear? Didn't we learn this in medieval Europe long ago? I would imagine that different groups of people respond to it quite differently from one another. It would also depend on what they have to lose by talking. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 10:06:02 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
well it got us to bin laden.... http://bernardgoldberg.com/panetta-confirms-again-that-waterboarding-helped-get-bid-laden-media-still-confused/ Lies. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 10:07:09 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Survival and victory need no justification. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I agree that in a "civilized" war (where we're limited to firebombing civilian populations...), waterboarding and/or more extreme torture is wrong. When dealing with savages/terrorists, however, I'd go full Vlad the Impaler, and line their streets with their heads on pikes - after they got a vacation in the Tower of London. The ends don't justify the means. Survival and victory need no justification. Where would you like to draw the line? Maybe we could rape all the local women, chop off the arms of the children, put them in a hall and set it on fire - who the heck knows. Victory is all that matters. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 10:08:38 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, my point is that the "torture doesn't work" claim has been pushed out as the PC answer. And that the staff at SERE are not actually involved in extracting intel from the bad guys. No please, tell me more about the SERE staff qualifications. I find it fascinating that the military keeps them isolated from the folks who do interrogations, so that their course of instruction would be entirely informed as to what modern interrogation methods include. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 10:13:33 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can't be allowed to become the narrative . . . Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
well it got us to bin laden.... http://bernardgoldberg.com/panetta-confirms-again-that-waterboarding-helped-get-bid-laden-media-still-confused/ Can't be allowed to become the narrative . . . Curious to know if you read the actual or just the headline. Because the author is putting a LOT of words in Panetta's mouth, that's for sure. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 10:14:59 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
McCain might not be a good Senator, but in this instance IMO he is right. We are supposed to be "the good guys" and waterboarding is wrong. On occasion maybe it might post some results but the propaganda value for our enemies will create new generations of jihadi warriors to fight us, and round and round we go. Think of the moderate muslims at risk of radicalization. We can give them aid and stability and democracy until the cows come home, but they will never forget, or forgive "those Kafir waterboarded my dad" Id prefer they didn't forget, and I'm not concerned with their forgiveness. If youre a moderate muslim at risk for radicalization, I want your outlook to be fear of certain death and torture if you join the Jihad of ISIS. "That Kafir tortured my father, and killed him by firing squad. If i pick up arms to fight, they will do worse to me." With regards to non-western civilizations, it is better to be feared than loved. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 10:16:42 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
McCain might not be a good Senator, but in this instance IMO he is right. We are supposed to be "the good guys" and waterboarding is wrong. On occasion maybe it might post some results but the propaganda value for our enemies will create new generations of jihadi warriors to fight us, and round and round we go. Think of the moderate muslims at risk of radicalization. We can give them aid and stability and democracy until the cows come home, but they will never forget, or forgive "those Kafir waterboarded my dad" Dropping an atomic bomb was "wrong." It's war, morals are irrelevant |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 10:20:37 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No please, tell me more about the SERE staff qualifications. I find it fascinating that the military keeps them isolated from the folks who do interrogations, so that their course of instruction would be entirely informed as to what modern interrogation methods include. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No, my point is that the "torture doesn't work" claim has been pushed out as the PC answer. And that the staff at SERE are not actually involved in extracting intel from the bad guys. No please, tell me more about the SERE staff qualifications. I find it fascinating that the military keeps them isolated from the folks who do interrogations, so that their course of instruction would be entirely informed as to what modern interrogation methods include. Pretty sure they have no access to the CIA people who did enhanced interrogations. The "torture doesn't work" claim is clearly the result of starting at the answer and working backwards. We don't even admit to using torture, and we only have a small number of people who have experience with enhanced interrogations. We have no basis to claim torture doesn't work. It is obvious this is a PC answer, and we are starting with the answer and not working the problem out from first principles. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 10:24:13 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Okay, I can accept that it is not very affective. I have no knowledge of that, and was assuming that they wouldn't use it if it didn't yield positive results. I was speaking to the moral side of the issue. IF it yields results, I believe there are times when it would be justified. We don't know how effective it is. We don't do it, or at least admit it. We have essentially no data on this. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 10:34:05 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The "torture doesn't work" claim is clearly the result of starting at the answer and working backwards. We don't even admit to using torture, and we only have a small number of people who have experience with enhanced interrogations. We have no basis to claim torture doesn't work. Other than a few hundred years of human history... You know, minor historical events, such as the Salem Witch Trials, the Inquisition, a couple World Wars, the development of modern policing, etc. Even the Gestapo figured it out, and that was over 60 years ago. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 10:36:14 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Other than a few hundred years of human history... You know, minor historical events, such as the Salem Witch Trials, the Inquisition, a couple World Wars, the development of modern policing, etc. Even the Gestapo figured it out, and that was over 60 years ago. Is there good reason to think it failed in those historical events? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 10:36:23 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Where would you like to draw the line? Maybe we could rape all the local women, chop off the arms of the children, put them in a hall and set it on fire - who the heck knows. Victory is all that matters. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I agree that in a "civilized" war (where we're limited to firebombing civilian populations...), waterboarding and/or more extreme torture is wrong. When dealing with savages/terrorists, however, I'd go full Vlad the Impaler, and line their streets with their heads on pikes - after they got a vacation in the Tower of London. The ends don't justify the means. Survival and victory need no justification. Where would you like to draw the line? Maybe we could rape all the local women, chop off the arms of the children, put them in a hall and set it on fire - who the heck knows. Victory is all that matters. Well when we are talking about opponents that do exactly the sort of things you described, victory is pretty essential. As far as where do you draw the line, you don't draw one. You don't announce that we might do B, we will do A, and we absolutely won't do C. I'd prefer the enemy be uncertain what methods we will use. Hell, often people's imaginations about what you are going to do to them is far worse then anything you had in mind. I see no point in giving assurances to them. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 10:42:32 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I, for one, am not in favor of using torture of any kind against prisoners - that includes waterboarding. Any of you cheerleaders for that kind of shit are messed up. If we sanction waterboarding or worse, it *will* be used on our guys as well. I agree. Everyone we would end up warring with would use it anyway. I don't think you do it as a matter of course, but every tool should remain in the tool box. Including torture. I don't necessarily think it should be limited just to interrogation. It should be used to compel behavior, if necessary. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 11:13:16 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, isn't it pretty well established that using torture and "enhanced interrogation" will get people to say what they think you want to hear? Didn't we learn this in medieval Europe long ago? Guy Fawkes was captured the morning of November 5, 1605, and his interrogation and torture began the next day. By November 9, he had confessed, revealed the names of many of his co-conspirators involved in the Gunpowder Plot, and told the specifics of their plans. I happen to know that story off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are other examples of torture producing the desired result in and around that time period. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2016 11:17:40 PM EDT
[#38]
McCain remains in place far past the last day he was relevant, useful, and sane.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/11/2016 12:42:25 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pretty sure they have no access to the CIA people who did enhanced interrogations. The "torture doesn't work" claim is clearly the result of starting at the answer and working backwards. We don't even admit to using torture, and we only have a small number of people who have experience with enhanced interrogations. We have no basis to claim torture doesn't work. It is obvious this is a PC answer, and we are starting with the answer and not working the problem out from first principles. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No, my point is that the "torture doesn't work" claim has been pushed out as the PC answer. And that the staff at SERE are not actually involved in extracting intel from the bad guys. No please, tell me more about the SERE staff qualifications. I find it fascinating that the military keeps them isolated from the folks who do interrogations, so that their course of instruction would be entirely informed as to what modern interrogation methods include. Pretty sure they have no access to the CIA people who did enhanced interrogations. The "torture doesn't work" claim is clearly the result of starting at the answer and working backwards. We don't even admit to using torture, and we only have a small number of people who have experience with enhanced interrogations. We have no basis to claim torture doesn't work. It is obvious this is a PC answer, and we are starting with the answer and not working the problem out from first principles. Shit, I don't know why we even have a SERE school when we have experts like you we can call. BTW, you really don't know what you're talking about here. When they fired up the enhanced interrogations program, guess who they consulted to develop the list of most of methods. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/11/2016 8:07:33 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Another example for the need of term limits. Of which, ironically, he is a big supporter.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/11/2016 8:15:58 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think you have a clear understanding of the issue. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
McCain might not be a good Senator, but in this instance IMO he is right. We are supposed to be "the good guys" and waterboarding is wrong. On occasion maybe it might post some results but the propaganda value for our enemies will create new generations of jihadi warriors to fight us, and round and round we go. Think of the moderate muslims at risk of radicalization. We can give them aid and stability and democracy until the cows come home, but they will never forget, or forgive "those Kafir waterboarded my dad" I don't think you have a clear understanding of the issue. That's the liberal whatever-evil-Amierca-does-to-anyone-is-bad-and-we-should-feel-bad understanding of how the U.S. should deal with the rest of the world. And it has no basis in fact. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/11/2016 8:22:02 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Waterboarding was used on, IIRC, 3, high priority targets. We picked them carefully. They knew something. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I could see water boarding giving false positives. If I drag some random guy off the street and start water boarding himAnd demand to know about his plot to kill Obama he'll eventually make something up That's not how it works You don't waterboard to get a confession, you waterboard to motivate someone to talk. While they talk, you listen, corroborate what they say with things you already know. When you catch them lying, you waterboard them more. Eventually they will realize you know they are lying, so they will stop, or at least lie better, to prevent more waterboarding. And the game goes on and on. Eventually they will give up truly sensitive information and once the dam breaks you don't even need to waterboard, they will usually give up info freely at that point. What happens when you start interrogating someone who truly doesn't know anything? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Waterboarding was used on, IIRC, 3, high priority targets. We picked them carefully. They knew something. This. ARCOM thinks we do this at every COP & FOB with everyone we PUC...fact is it was done under controlled/regulated/sterile conditions by order of the POTUS for each the handful of times it total that it was performed. Was because 0 rescinded the Enhanced Interrogation Program (i.e. not torture program) within 48 hours (IIRC) of taking office. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/11/2016 8:24:07 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: McStain has caused so much harm to this country that he's past the point of being thanked for his service Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Thank you for your service John. Now kindly STFU and go away. McStain has caused so much harm to this country that he's past the point of being thanked for his service |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/11/2016 8:25:23 AM EDT
[#44]
Guess KSM is a liar
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/11/2016 8:26:42 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Guess KSM is a liar |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/11/2016 8:28:43 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So being nice to them is the better way to get info out of Jihadists.............why am I having a hard time believing that. All you need to do is give them a job. That's all they really want. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/11/2016 8:49:13 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The whole point of the program was to define what could be done short of torture. The default position was to treat terrorists who had no POW statues as if they were POWs. The enhanced interrigation approach defined torture and then developed techniques that did not rise to that level. Looking at how the Bush administration developed the program it is hard to disagree with their logic. You might disagree with their conclusions and argue some techinques really were torture, but that's just opinion. Most Americans seem to be fine with using torture BTW. The political debate on the issue has been manufactured rage by the left. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
But a lot wouldn't. Its clearly torture. I don't really have a problem with it being used in special circumstances, but there is a lot of trust issues that go along with that. Most Americans, especially those of whichever party does not hold the White House, will automatically be pissed off at anything perceived as illegal that which is condoned by the exec. branch. Its a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, and best kept TS/SCI level and not discussed on Fox and MSNBC. The whole point of the program was to define what could be done short of torture. The default position was to treat terrorists who had no POW statues as if they were POWs. The enhanced interrigation approach defined torture and then developed techniques that did not rise to that level. Looking at how the Bush administration developed the program it is hard to disagree with their logic. You might disagree with their conclusions and argue some techinques really were torture, but that's just opinion. Most Americans seem to be fine with using torture BTW. The political debate on the issue has been manufactured rage by the left. This. None of the enhanced interrogation techniques used by the U.S. post-9/11 were torture based on the internationally accepted legal definition of torture. You might have a different opinion, but in the eyes of the world's legal community, the U.S. never tortured anyone. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/11/2016 10:27:31 AM EDT
[#48]
We need to strike fear into the hearts of our enemies.
If you refuse to understand why, then stand the fuck down and let hard men deal with hard times. What differentiates America, is our refusal to march across the lands and conquer people. Once we understand their intentions, and THEIR willingness to break the rules decency, all bets are off. This isn't any different than our justification to explode their heads with .50 caliber pills, or use a car/SUV/etc to bash the gang of motorcycle thugs who are trying to get to you and your family. THEY broke the rules and it's up to America to beat them at their own game. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/11/2016 11:05:10 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We had signed international agreements that we wouldn't torture, but these documents didn't define torture. The problem was, for terrorists who don't rightfully have POW status, our default was to treat them according to POW standards. The Bush administration wanted to know what, exactly, we could do. What was the limit? The starting point was to define torture. So Justice Department lawyers did that. My understanding is that torture is defined as causing pain or physical damage. Causing discomfort or mental fear, etc., fall short of torture by this definition. Obama has released our methods of interrogation. This means the enemy can study our methods and learn to defeat them. I think it means they can defeat other methods that we might devise, because they know what our limits are. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I don't really get hung up on the methods, the only pro waterboarding has is that its bloodless, relatively safe, and is legally not considered actual torture for whatever reason. As I've said before, should any situation occur that requires that level of interrogation, its classification alone should mean that it isn't brought up to the public. We had signed international agreements that we wouldn't torture, but these documents didn't define torture. The problem was, for terrorists who don't rightfully have POW status, our default was to treat them according to POW standards. The Bush administration wanted to know what, exactly, we could do. What was the limit? The starting point was to define torture. So Justice Department lawyers did that. My understanding is that torture is defined as causing pain or physical damage. Causing discomfort or mental fear, etc., fall short of torture by this definition. Obama has released our methods of interrogation. This means the enemy can study our methods and learn to defeat them. I think it means they can defeat other methods that we might devise, because they know what our limits are. KSM learned pretty quickly (first hand) what our limits were with respect to waterboarding. It took a slight variation in the established waterboarding protocol (just a few seconds more than he was used to getting) for us to learn what his limits were. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/11/2016 11:24:42 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It was mostly malnutrition. Lack of Vitamins, minerals, and enough calories keeps your mind from working properly. It makes it much easier to convince a person that spilling the beans is what they want to do. It is an essential component of brainwashing someone. The other highly effective technique the NVA used was to get some low level guy to turn. (capture enough people and you will get someone who takes little to no convincing, especially in a draft era) Then you treat the guy who turns like a relative king, in front of the guys who won't break easily. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So what exactly did the NVA do to get him to talk so freely? It was mostly malnutrition. Lack of Vitamins, minerals, and enough calories keeps your mind from working properly. It makes it much easier to convince a person that spilling the beans is what they want to do. It is an essential component of brainwashing someone. The other highly effective technique the NVA used was to get some low level guy to turn. (capture enough people and you will get someone who takes little to no convincing, especially in a draft era) Then you treat the guy who turns like a relative king, in front of the guys who won't break easily. The other aspect of actual torture (i.e. causing physical bodily harm/damage) is it's pshychological affect. In one of the Vietnam case studies I read, what really drove the POW "insane" was knowing that they were permanently damaging his body (i.e. reopening wounds, rebreaking broken bones, etc.) and that he'd never again be 100%. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
