I will just put this here.

Stupid dangerous shit

this is really one the shittiest industries. shilling, whoring (literally its how Glock got so many law enforcement sales), back stabbing, fraud, deception. I swear the older I get (turned 42 yesterday) the less and less enthusiastic I am about participating in it (being a consumer). i use to like shooting competitions and now not only do I not want to do it, I dislike it. I use to like gun videos, magazines, etc and now I consume less and less media in regards to firearms. I shoot less as a consequence of this.  I think I've just become so disillusioned with the whole thing. It use to be fun. Now its like some rat race of who has what dick measuring contest. A guy can't buy a DPMS sportical and go out bang off a few rounds without someone being an asshole about it. the trainers these days seem like primadonnas who stab each other in the back. the manufactures putting out garbage products. the accessory sellers selling fucking vegetable oil for $50 an ounce. no one really is interested in helping the newbies out its all about how much money they can extract from people. take my training course! only $1000 for 2 days! buy my gun lube for $50 an ounce! only buy this ar-15 its tier 1! only film me at shot show I'm the only one that matters! don't you know who I am! That wasn't an ND I planned that! No putting a camera man down range infront of a line students isn't stupid you just aren't teir 1 enough! oh you don't know who such and such is you aren't "in the know".

jesus you know what? I don't want to know these people. they are a bunch of fuck asses.

contact rear

I hope you aren't serious.

A communistic adaptation of the weapon safety rules.

Invalid.

I don't even understand why he's not owning up to it.
He knows the "Russian techniques" he was demonstrating are stupid and dangerous, & he showed why perfectly by having an ND while demoing them. He should have included it in his vid & just went on with his bad self.

The "camming action" one is all sorts of WTF.

Actually thinking about it, I'm not sure why he was talking about those two really bad ideas in the first place. Whatever.

No kidding.  That's funny as hell.  For the first couple minutes my eyes were glazing over as Haley seemed intent on out doing himself with big words then shit got real!

doesn't matter if that mag's loaded, throw that shit on the ground

To explain why they are bad ways of doing it.

His "safety sin" was to be overconfident and demonstrate techniques he knew were safe with a hot rifle.  It should have been cleared but (I'd bet) he thought he could demonstrate the techniques without falling victim to them.  I agree he should have left that in as it exactly made the point that the "Russian" techniques are not safe.

Still looking like Panteo released the snipped video then gets to release the raw video to demonstrate their innocence.  The only reason the first video got out was to make Haley look bad.  Who wants to make him look bad?

So if you are joking around it is OK to demo unsafe gun handling techniques?

Yea what could possibly happen demonstrating dangerous techniques with loaded AKs?

Old fart!

LOL

Its no different than other industries IMHO.
From gear to guns to techniques. Everyone wants a bite of the pie.
So good and bad get mixed in well.

If a Guy like pat Mac or Haley did two day courses for free...no one here would know their names.....

Shit happens ...you own up to your fuck ups and move on....
Not try an spin it.




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He made himself look bad by not admitting the vid showed exactly what it shows. He fucked up, two times. First by doing that stupid shit, then lying about it. Not owning up to your fuckups makes you look extra bad, regardless of the intent of others who made your fuckups known in the first place.

I don't have a dog in the fight. I've met him, he was a nice guy, but he fucked up.

to be fair he was pretty safe in the phuc long vid, muzzle discipline was good and he kept the safety on until the first shot

Take away all of the bickering, the industry nonsense, the back and forth about what this instructor or that instructor does, and in the end we are all left with a sobering reminder that shooting is a potentially dangerous activity, and we should all remember to be safe in everything we do.

So you're shilling for FireClean?  

People just need to follow the safety science.

Attributed? NOT the SOLE source??? Hmmm, now your assertion leaves a gap...

The use of "can be avoided" is also not in your favor.
It's the difference in using words like *may* instead of *shall* or *will*. By stating your  you do not solidify the position they are completely unavoidable, but that there is still some sort of cosmic "Oops factor" that cannot be avoided by following the 4 rules. You invalidate your entire position and support my own.

Learn something about debate, rationale arguments and you *may* have a chance at an effective argument, until then, Thanks?

I think he summed it up just fine.

Embarrassing, but shit happens.

He's stating that the practice of attributing negligent behavior to an unavoidable circumstance is unacceptable. What the fuck are you talking about?

The use of the word "can" implies that it is always possible. If he'd used the word "may" it leaves the room for error, as it is not definite. The words "shall" or "will" wouldn't have been appropriate in that situation, and they would imply that he is giving a command which will always be followed.

You seem to be lacking in reading comprehension.

I don't think lying about having a negligent discharge, and then slandering the people who filmed you having the negligent discharge is just fine.

To be fair loading your AK with your boot on the charging handle while holding the muzzle is not "pretty safe".

Nothing against Haley personally but the actions on video are not safe gun handling. He should do better and own up to his mistakes.

meh, he was deliberate enough not to muzzle any part of his body or anything else while doing it

I'm with you on the red part for sure

QFT.

There's 2 types of gun people; Those that have had NDs, and those that will have a ND.  

Mine was with a 1911.  I fired 7, and dropped the mag.  I pulled the trigger to drop the hammer (With the muzzle still pointed downrange), BANG!  

The "Speed of reality" is amazing.  In the middle of the BANG!, I was able to say/think the entire sentence in my head, "That was an 8 round magazine"....

The edited video makes the situation look a lot worse than the original.  Whoever leaked that did it to hurt his reputation (which has obviously worked) whether it was a ND or not.

The gun industry makes my daughter's middle school social world look sane.

Do anything long enough and this shit happens

Updated vid makes it clear as day it was an ND. It was clear as day before. I dig Haley but all the Haley boot lickers in here that believed he did that intentionally had me rollin' . As everyone said, do it long enough shit happens. I've had an ND before. Fortunately I was following the other rules of safety (as was Travis) and no one was endangered.

Mostly this.  And you haven't seen it all until you are on the inside such as a gun retail, a training shop or a range.  Unlike the hard science fields, medicine, engineering etc. there is hardly any vetting process in the gun industry, anybody can be anybody.  You can have some of the dumbest, GED struggling bastards work behind a counter or be in the industry loop.

 

Russian techniques generate Russian results.

He almost "Serpa'd" someone with an AK...

I agree here...may (and can) are too weak for his assertion that the rules MUST be followed 100% of the time. If you compare the following:
"complacent behavior is what creates such conditions."
(What does that mean to you? I'm taking that as: Ignoring, or, NOT following the 4 rules WILL create the conditions for an ND)

"NDs are attributed to individual negligence and can be avoided. "
(This points back at complacency, that an individual failure to follow the 4 Rules WILL end in an ND)

Clearly stated, difference is that one statement makes it possible, the other, a finite and definite thing that WILL occur.

In regards to the entire discussion, I assert that given human flaws, the statistical probability is just that, a greater CHANCE of having an ND is proportionate to the number of rounds you fire.

Simply Stated:

werd

Next Up:

Billy Clinton is here to muddy the water with what's the meaning of "IS"?

Thread title should be:

"Panteo plays junior high school girl antics in attempts to damage one of their partners' businesses."

He's the only one professional enough to ..............................finger fuck an AK47 variant until it ND's.
So, like our favorite DEA agent; Travis Haley will be forever known as "The only one Professhunal enough to,...BANG! Don't put that on fucking film".





Maybe now he'll join Chris Costa for the 2016 Japanese Tactical Catwalk Masquerade Ball. You heard it here first.





2016 Japanese Tactical Catwalk Masquerade Ball, featuring Travis Haley & Chris Costa's "Reunited and it feels so good".









 

Jesus.

Why give a fuck? It was an accident that he acknowledged and no one was injured. A lesson learned.

He denied it was an accident.  That's why people give a fuck.

 

You ARE serious!

How is it Pantaeo's fault? According to the post on Travis Haley's timeline, one of his instructor buddies was the one who originally posted the video. Then they go on to claim Pantaeo's trying to make TH look bad, even though he did that himself by lying and then pooping on Pantaeo and blaming them

In this thread ARFCOM acts like the Jerry Springer show.

i say from now on every time we talk about an neglent discharge we call it a Travis Haley.


example

"some guy had a Travis Haley at the gunshow Saturday"

You have just summed up GD in general

So, business as usual.

You're not wrong and I feel the same way every so often.



The gun industry, especially it's "training" division, is so full of shit. There are no secret ninja moves and there are no secret ninja "trainers." Everyone is teaching a rehash of the same techniques and charging a shitload of money for the privilege of hearing it from someone who was in some kind of special operations unit.



Between the Army and law enforcement I've had a significant amount of "tactical firearms training," some from big name people, and it honestly stands out in my mind if an instructor can simply administer a course of fire, score the targets, and offer pointers as needed, because most of them use the time as a free soapbox to rant about some "tactical" bullshit that is halfway or none of the way relevant to what the training goal is. I know how to shoot, I know how to reload, and I know how to move while doing one or the other. Grade my performance and comment on deficiencies, stop lecturing me about nonsense like OODA loops and shit.



You can practice all the ridiculous weapon manipulations you want, at the end of the day it's still shoot, move communicate. It's not like Delta Force has some top secret playbook that's different than the tactics everybody else has access to, they just have hand picked personnel and practice a shitload more than anyone else, like the difference is just the difference between an NFL team and pee-wee football.



And a lot of it is just masturbatory bullshit anyway. Not to pick on Travis Haley, since I can already barely see him under the GD dogpile, but why exactly do I give a fuck about some obscure unsafe Russian alternative to indexing your finger like a normal person? Actually to zoom out a little bit why are we even treating the AK like a serious combat weapon and going beyond familiarization fires when most of the free world uses better shit? Unless you're an 18B by trade being able to operate an AK like a pro is slightly above hula hooping on the list of potentially useful skills.



Unfortunately for the tactical training industry, shooting guns just isn't that fucking hard. That's why they replaced shit that is hard, like swords and bows. The army can make stone cold killers out of 18 year old dorks, you don't need to fork over $1k to an ex-Mossad operative to learn to kill someone with a gun.



 

Yeah it is kinda funny that people needed a class to tell them finger fucking the trigger of a loaded ak was unsafe.

So who released the video?   Fireclean??

Welp. If that really was Travis who posted that it was not an ND, then I just lost a huge amount of respect for him. One of the very few people I actually looked up to
Don't be obtuse Just in my little circle of acquaintances and friends are several people who have had no choice in the matter when it comes to firearms overseas. Why would you NOT want to be proficient with the most widely used rifle in the world?





AK not a serious combat weapon.... holy crap, GD...