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Posted: 11/27/2015 9:53:21 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You Wow. Settle down there tiger. http://www.strongtie.com/ftp/bulletins/T-PTWOOD08-R.pdf Cliff notes- new treatment is 'more' corrosive than the old copper stuff, however when, how and to what extent fasteners will corrode is unknown and variable. I'm not a contractor, I'm a civil engineer in the electric power industry. Show me a code requiring galvanized or stainless fasteners and you'll suddenly have liability to the engineer or contractor. I have never. Seen. A. Requirement. For. Fasteners. Show me a code. I don't spend a lot of time in the IBC or ASCE codes, but I am superficially familiar with them and the NDS code for wood construction. It's only a 'good idea' because you can't tell if or when it will be a problem. That means nothing, if it's not in the code it's because the link is too flimsy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
You Quoted:
Quoted:
Then this is a problem with moisture. We have treated wood in Utah. We don't have moisture. We have no problems. You have treated wood. You have moisture. You have problems. I don't see how this can be blamed on a reaction of the treated wood. Treated wood with moisture? Maybe. Untreated wood with moisture? Same problem? Pretty tough to difinitively state this is an effect of wood treatment. Think of all the little 8 and 16 penny nails into treated wood. Sorry, I ain't buying it. Cite or BS. You're an example of why the construction industry is full of fail. The requirements for fasteners in ACQ treated wood have been out there for years, but fools constantly keep ignoring what the published guidance is, and then have the balls to defend what they do. Not my bond, not my problem. Your customer's lawyers will likely feel differently. ACQ FAQ Read the FAQ. Note carefully where they discuss the types of fasteners to be used around ACQ; at a minimum, they prescribe hot-dip galvanized or stainless steel. There's a reason for that, and it's because of corrosion issues, which are exacerbated by high moisture levels. Never mind me, I just read the fucking manuals that you didn't bother to. When the manufacturer tells you to do something, that's not because they're dicks, they're telling you how to avoid being sued into poverty when your projects fail. You use improper fasteners, and something fails, guess what: Your bond and insurance are worth dick to you, because the people who put them up have little clauses where they absolve themselves from paying out when you don't follow the manufacturer's guides and "general industry best practices". Disbelieve me? Read the fine print on your bond and insurance. You might want to re-think your attitude. Wow. Settle down there tiger. http://www.strongtie.com/ftp/bulletins/T-PTWOOD08-R.pdf Cliff notes- new treatment is 'more' corrosive than the old copper stuff, however when, how and to what extent fasteners will corrode is unknown and variable. I'm not a contractor, I'm a civil engineer in the electric power industry. Show me a code requiring galvanized or stainless fasteners and you'll suddenly have liability to the engineer or contractor. I have never. Seen. A. Requirement. For. Fasteners. Show me a code. I don't spend a lot of time in the IBC or ASCE codes, but I am superficially familiar with them and the NDS code for wood construction. It's only a 'good idea' because you can't tell if or when it will be a problem. That means nothing, if it's not in the code it's because the link is too flimsy. And, this is why we double our prices when we find out the client has an engineering degree... |
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Posted: 11/27/2015 9:56:37 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They made a nail specifically for joist hangers Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: They have an ass load of nail holes in them for a reason. Good point. I just realized that the nails will probably pass through the hanger, joist, and ledger. They made a nail specifically for joist hangers |
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Posted: 11/27/2015 10:00:25 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm going to tell you everything I know about connector plates: buy a palm nailer. |
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Posted: 11/27/2015 10:06:58 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm going to tell you everything I know about connector plates: buy a palm nailer. Or use structural connector screws. 
They are expensive though. |
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Posted: 11/27/2015 10:08:24 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm going to tell you everything I know about connector plates: buy a palm nailer. Here's what I know: Palm nailers are good for tight spaces, but if you're going to be installing a bunch of these things, what you really need is one of these: Hitachi Strap Nailer The term most in the construction trade use for the fasteners is "teco/tico nails". There are also Simpson screws that meet the standard; homeowners might best be served by the screws, because they can be installed by any good drill/driver combo, or a small impact gun. The specialized strap nailer gun systems aren't really cost-effective other than for people doing it for a living. |
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Posted: 11/27/2015 10:30:27 PM EDT
[#6]
I always toe nail the joist to the ledger first. Then I come back and add hangers, pulling them up tight to the bottom of the joist. Since lumber, especially treated lumber, varies in size, it's best to get the joist flush by toenail in before adding hangers. If you put on hangers first, your joists may not all end up flush with the top of the ledger.
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Posted: 11/27/2015 10:41:15 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I always toe nail the joist to the ledger first. Then I come back and add hangers, pulling them up tight to the bottom of the joist. Since lumber, especially treated lumber, varies in size, it's best to get the joist flush by toenail in before adding hangers. If you put on hangers first, your joists may not all end up flush with the top of the ledger. ^^^^Truth^^^^ The variability in lumber sizes is maddening. The stack/pallet may say " 2"X10"X12' ", but the actual dimensions you get lead one to suspect that the guys down at the mill take those dimensions as more "suggestions" than requirements. Even in the same stack, you may find boards that are nominal 9 3/8", 9 1/2", 9 3/4"--Which is why you apply the hangers after installation. Of course, if you're going for that "ocean wave" effect in your decking, just set the hangers first. The shim cartel will love you... |
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Posted: 11/28/2015 7:02:42 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here's what I know: Palm nailers are good for tight spaces, but if you're going to be installing a bunch of these things, what you really need is one of these: Hitachi Strap Nailer The term most in the construction trade use for the fasteners is "teco/tico nails". There are also Simpson screws that meet the standard; homeowners might best be served by the screws, because they can be installed by any good drill/driver combo, or a small impact gun. The specialized strap nailer gun systems aren't really cost-effective other than for people doing it for a living. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm going to tell you everything I know about connector plates: buy a palm nailer. Here's what I know: Palm nailers are good for tight spaces, but if you're going to be installing a bunch of these things, what you really need is one of these: Hitachi Strap Nailer The term most in the construction trade use for the fasteners is "teco/tico nails". There are also Simpson screws that meet the standard; homeowners might best be served by the screws, because they can be installed by any good drill/driver combo, or a small impact gun. The specialized strap nailer gun systems aren't really cost-effective other than for people doing it for a living. My comment about palm nailers was prompted by having to install about fifty hurricane ties behind knee walls after the framer neglected to do it when he should have. I've never done framing professionally. My experience is limited to volunteering with Habitat for several years and helping to build a few decks and storage buildings. I was aware there were specialized air guns for nailing connector plates, but I've never seen one. I'd never ever heard of using screws for this, but I'd long wondered why it wasn't done. I never bothered to inquire, as I assumed I was just being obcessive again; I generally prefer screws to nails and I'm only truly content with a nut, bolt, and fender washers. 
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Posted: 11/28/2015 7:14:47 AM EDT
[#9]
The holes in those things are not for looks.
Go ahead and ignore them, what could go wrong? |
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Posted: 11/28/2015 8:33:55 AM EDT
[#10]
Tons of carpenter fail in this thread.
I am not in the least bit surprised. |
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Posted: 11/28/2015 8:35:14 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your avatar....put it back. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm going to tell you everything I know about connector plates: buy a palm nailer. Your avatar....put it back. Pretty much. I'm going to boycott her threads until she does. |
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Posted: 11/28/2015 10:54:40 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And, this is why we double our prices when we find out the client has an engineering degree... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You Quoted:
Quoted:
Then this is a problem with moisture. We have treated wood in Utah. We don't have moisture. We have no problems. You have treated wood. You have moisture. You have problems. I don't see how this can be blamed on a reaction of the treated wood. Treated wood with moisture? Maybe. Untreated wood with moisture? Same problem? Pretty tough to difinitively state this is an effect of wood treatment. Think of all the little 8 and 16 penny nails into treated wood. Sorry, I ain't buying it. Cite or BS. You're an example of why the construction industry is full of fail. The requirements for fasteners in ACQ treated wood have been out there for years, but fools constantly keep ignoring what the published guidance is, and then have the balls to defend what they do. Not my bond, not my problem. Your customer's lawyers will likely feel differently. ACQ FAQ Read the FAQ. Note carefully where they discuss the types of fasteners to be used around ACQ; at a minimum, they prescribe hot-dip galvanized or stainless steel. There's a reason for that, and it's because of corrosion issues, which are exacerbated by high moisture levels. Never mind me, I just read the fucking manuals that you didn't bother to. When the manufacturer tells you to do something, that's not because they're dicks, they're telling you how to avoid being sued into poverty when your projects fail. You use improper fasteners, and something fails, guess what: Your bond and insurance are worth dick to you, because the people who put them up have little clauses where they absolve themselves from paying out when you don't follow the manufacturer's guides and "general industry best practices". Disbelieve me? Read the fine print on your bond and insurance. You might want to re-think your attitude. Wow. Settle down there tiger. http://www.strongtie.com/ftp/bulletins/T-PTWOOD08-R.pdf Cliff notes- new treatment is 'more' corrosive than the old copper stuff, however when, how and to what extent fasteners will corrode is unknown and variable. I'm not a contractor, I'm a civil engineer in the electric power industry. Show me a code requiring galvanized or stainless fasteners and you'll suddenly have liability to the engineer or contractor. I have never. Seen. A. Requirement. For. Fasteners. Show me a code. I don't spend a lot of time in the IBC or ASCE codes, but I am superficially familiar with them and the NDS code for wood construction. It's only a 'good idea' because you can't tell if or when it will be a problem. That means nothing, if it's not in the code it's because the link is too flimsy. And, this is why we double our prices when we find out the client has an engineering degree... So I'm not the only one. 
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Posted: 11/30/2015 1:33:23 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do yourself a favor, and get the manufacturer's guide for the hanger system you're using. That guide will show you precisely what you're supposed to be doing for the nailing/fastener situation for that particular hanger, and then follow it. Simpson's: Simpson Wood Construction Catalog PDF On Page 22, it starts talking about fasteners to use, and what the various types of holes are supposed to be filled with. You'll most likely be using the LUS series of hangers, which are described on Page 146. There, you'll see the requirements for the type of fastener for your application, and what you'll need to do to fill it. More than likely, you'll want the Z-Max coatings, or a stainless steel version for your deck. Read the catalog's first section, and it will educate you on what you need to do for installation. There are also Installer's Guides available. What I've found is that there are a bunch of folks working construction trades who don't bother to read this stuff, and who just "go with their gut" when it comes to installing and using these products. That's fine, but when you run into an inspector who knows what "right" looks like, or you have your project collapse under the weight of their ignorance, you'll wish you had done a little bit of research, first. Follow the manufacturer's recommendations, and that way, if something goes wrong, you can at least sue the shit out of them when their product fails. Which it likely won't, if you install it right in the first place... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm building a deck with a buddy of mine who has 30 years of carpentry experience. We were discussing the next step which is putting up the joist hangers and installing the joists. I made a comment about the joist just resting in the hanger and he said, the joists will be attached to the beam and ledger as well as sitting in the hangers. I always thought the joists just rested in the hanger that was secured..... Maybe its a good thing I'm not doing this project alone. Pics will be up once I have enough to show progress. Do yourself a favor, and get the manufacturer's guide for the hanger system you're using. That guide will show you precisely what you're supposed to be doing for the nailing/fastener situation for that particular hanger, and then follow it. Simpson's: Simpson Wood Construction Catalog PDF On Page 22, it starts talking about fasteners to use, and what the various types of holes are supposed to be filled with. You'll most likely be using the LUS series of hangers, which are described on Page 146. There, you'll see the requirements for the type of fastener for your application, and what you'll need to do to fill it. More than likely, you'll want the Z-Max coatings, or a stainless steel version for your deck. Read the catalog's first section, and it will educate you on what you need to do for installation. There are also Installer's Guides available. What I've found is that there are a bunch of folks working construction trades who don't bother to read this stuff, and who just "go with their gut" when it comes to installing and using these products. That's fine, but when you run into an inspector who knows what "right" looks like, or you have your project collapse under the weight of their ignorance, you'll wish you had done a little bit of research, first. Follow the manufacturer's recommendations, and that way, if something goes wrong, you can at least sue the shit out of them when their product fails. Which it likely won't, if you install it right in the first place... appreciated. I forgot the brand of hangers, but they have 12 holes. 8 were filled with tico nails and 4 were 10D nails used in crossing through the joist itself. Again, the guy I'm working with is licensed and been doing it for 30 years. With the attention to detail he's showing I'm confident in his work. |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 1:38:08 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I always toe nail the joist to the ledger first. Then I come back and add hangers, pulling them up tight to the bottom of the joist. Since lumber, especially treated lumber, varies in size, it's best to get the joist flush by toenail in before adding hangers. If you put on hangers first, your joists may not all end up flush with the top of the ledger. This is exactly what we did. Hangers went on last. |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 1:41:06 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
^^^^Truth^^^^ The variability in lumber sizes is maddening. The stack/pallet may say " 2"X10"X12' ", but the actual dimensions you get lead one to suspect that the guys down at the mill take those dimensions as more "suggestions" than requirements. Even in the same stack, you may find boards that are nominal 9 3/8", 9 1/2", 9 3/4"--Which is why you apply the hangers after installation. Of course, if you're going for that "ocean wave" effect in your decking, just set the hangers first. The shim cartel will love you... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I always toe nail the joist to the ledger first. Then I come back and add hangers, pulling them up tight to the bottom of the joist. Since lumber, especially treated lumber, varies in size, it's best to get the joist flush by toenail in before adding hangers. If you put on hangers first, your joists may not all end up flush with the top of the ledger. ^^^^Truth^^^^ The variability in lumber sizes is maddening. The stack/pallet may say " 2"X10"X12' ", but the actual dimensions you get lead one to suspect that the guys down at the mill take those dimensions as more "suggestions" than requirements. Even in the same stack, you may find boards that are nominal 9 3/8", 9 1/2", 9 3/4"--Which is why you apply the hangers after installation. Of course, if you're going for that "ocean wave" effect in your decking, just set the hangers first. The shim cartel will love you... That's what we found. Most of the 2x10s were between 9 1/2" and 9 3/4'. Not too bad, but we made adjustments were needed. I'll be able to post pics tomorrow and I won't be home today before the sun is down. |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 1:43:36 PM EDT
[#16]
How critical is it for the joists to be flush against the ledger? I think every single one of mine has a 1/4" gap at the top. They're all nailed through the hanger. It's had 4ft of snow on it, so I'm not too worried, just curious.
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Posted: 11/30/2015 1:59:51 PM EDT
[#17]
The Simpson manual is a reference used in many state's GC licensing exams for a reason
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Posted: 11/30/2015 2:03:55 PM EDT
[#18]
Plenty tales of woe worth googling from collapsed decks.
A noted architect here in Austin got reamed for something the contractor did When a deck failed crippled some women. Do it right. |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 2:10:29 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They made a nail specifically for joist hangers they are called screws |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 2:12:10 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
they are called screws Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
They made a nail specifically for joist hangers they are called screws not sure if srs |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 2:19:27 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And, this is why we double our prices when we find out the client has an engineering degree... LOL |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 2:26:10 PM EDT
[#22]
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Posted: 11/30/2015 2:31:06 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:  Ledger is attached with 4.5in lag bolts |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 2:36:32 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryWe exceeded many of the requirements. For the record, I ordered a deck package from a local lumber place. So, they provided the lumber AND hardware in accordance with our counties requirements. Not to mention the county will still need to sign off on the project at the end. |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 2:38:31 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
you should have used staggered thru bolts. Although permissible lags pull away and encourage water intrusion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Ledger is attached with 4.5in lag boltsSorry, I misspoke. The section of ledger attached to concrete is fastened with staggered through bolts. I'll get pics up soon. |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 2:39:14 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So I'm not the only one. Nope, and you'd be a fool not to. Whether it's an Electrical Engineer who thinks he's qualified to do structural stuff, or some Chemical Engineer who thinks he knows how anything in construction is supposed to work, they all wind up costing us (and, themselves...) way more money than they're worth. Plus, they suck the joy out of the job. Nothing like having some guy with a degree who's convinced that that subject-matter irrelevant educational attainment somehow trumps twenty years of experience and practical knowledge. You get tired of giving in to them, doing as they say, and then having the building inspector give you a solid "WTF? You know better...", and makes you put it back the way it's supposed to go. Seriously, though... If you're a contractor, and the person paying the bills has any form of engineering degree, you're nuts if you don't jack your prices up to match the folly you're going to be subject to, or have an iron-clad contract that says they're responsible for the add-on costs they cause with their "help". Looking back, I think my most positive experiences as a contractor have come from outside the profession of engineer, and the most negative, from within it. Dentists? Great clients, generally. Doctors and lawyers? Worst or best, no in between. After awhile, it's not stereotyping, it's experience. |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 2:48:58 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope, and you'd be a fool not to. Whether it's an Electrical Engineer who thinks he's qualified to do structural stuff, or some Chemical Engineer who thinks he knows how anything in construction is supposed to work, they all wind up costing us (and, themselves...) way more money than they're worth. Plus, they suck the joy out of the job. Nothing like having some guy with a degree who's convinced that that subject-matter irrelevant educational attainment somehow trumps twenty years of experience and practical knowledge. You get tired of giving in to them, doing as they say, and then having the building inspector give you a solid "WTF? You know better...", and makes you put it back the way it's supposed to go. Seriously, though... If you're a contractor, and the person paying the bills has any form of engineering degree, you're nuts if you don't jack your prices up to match the folly you're going to be subject to, or have an iron-clad contract that says they're responsible for the add-on costs they cause with their "help". Looking back, I think my most positive experiences as a contractor have come from outside the profession of engineer, and the most negative, from within it. Dentists? Great clients, generally. Doctors and lawyers? Worst or best, no in between. After awhile, it's not stereotyping, it's experience. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So I'm not the only one. Nope, and you'd be a fool not to. Whether it's an Electrical Engineer who thinks he's qualified to do structural stuff, or some Chemical Engineer who thinks he knows how anything in construction is supposed to work, they all wind up costing us (and, themselves...) way more money than they're worth. Plus, they suck the joy out of the job. Nothing like having some guy with a degree who's convinced that that subject-matter irrelevant educational attainment somehow trumps twenty years of experience and practical knowledge. You get tired of giving in to them, doing as they say, and then having the building inspector give you a solid "WTF? You know better...", and makes you put it back the way it's supposed to go. Seriously, though... If you're a contractor, and the person paying the bills has any form of engineering degree, you're nuts if you don't jack your prices up to match the folly you're going to be subject to, or have an iron-clad contract that says they're responsible for the add-on costs they cause with their "help". Looking back, I think my most positive experiences as a contractor have come from outside the profession of engineer, and the most negative, from within it. Dentists? Great clients, generally. Doctors and lawyers? Worst or best, no in between. After awhile, it's not stereotyping, it's experience. I'll say I've enjoyed working with the guy building mine. I have some experience building, but you can tell he really knows what he's doing based on how he solves small issues and how he projects out the next steps. I like the learning aspect and of course the gratification that I had a hand in building my deck. I know when to STFU and watch, and then there's been one or two times I've corrected on measurements. I'm sure he would have figured it out eventually, but I was sure of my numbers. In the end I'd rather have one guy I trust and myself doing it than paying a team of people I've never met. Not to mention the tens of thousands I saved by doing it this way. I did a lot of house construction on summer breaks with my uncle and I absolutely loved it. If I wasn't in my field I probably would have done something like home or deck construction. There really is something so gratifying about watching your hard work, attention to detail, and expertise get molded into something so great. |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 3:01:39 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope, and you'd be a fool not to. Whether it's an Electrical Engineer who thinks he's qualified to do structural stuff, or some Chemical Engineer who thinks he knows how anything in construction is supposed to work, they all wind up costing us (and, themselves...) way more money than they're worth. Plus, they suck the joy out of the job. Nothing like having some guy with a degree who's convinced that that subject-matter irrelevant educational attainment somehow trumps twenty years of experience and practical knowledge. You get tired of giving in to them, doing as they say, and then having the building inspector give you a solid "WTF? You know better...", and makes you put it back the way it's supposed to go. Seriously, though... If you're a contractor, and the person paying the bills has any form of engineering degree, you're nuts if you don't jack your prices up to match the folly you're going to be subject to, or have an iron-clad contract that says they're responsible for the add-on costs they cause with their "help". Looking back, I think my most positive experiences as a contractor have come from outside the profession of engineer, and the most negative, from within it. Dentists? Great clients, generally. Doctors and lawyers? Worst or best, no in between. After awhile, it's not stereotyping, it's experience. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So I'm not the only one. Nope, and you'd be a fool not to. Whether it's an Electrical Engineer who thinks he's qualified to do structural stuff, or some Chemical Engineer who thinks he knows how anything in construction is supposed to work, they all wind up costing us (and, themselves...) way more money than they're worth. Plus, they suck the joy out of the job. Nothing like having some guy with a degree who's convinced that that subject-matter irrelevant educational attainment somehow trumps twenty years of experience and practical knowledge. You get tired of giving in to them, doing as they say, and then having the building inspector give you a solid "WTF? You know better...", and makes you put it back the way it's supposed to go. Seriously, though... If you're a contractor, and the person paying the bills has any form of engineering degree, you're nuts if you don't jack your prices up to match the folly you're going to be subject to, or have an iron-clad contract that says they're responsible for the add-on costs they cause with their "help". Looking back, I think my most positive experiences as a contractor have come from outside the profession of engineer, and the most negative, from within it. Dentists? Great clients, generally. Doctors and lawyers? Worst or best, no in between. After awhile, it's not stereotyping, it's experience. Once in a while, you come across a few that are in construction. Occasionally, one of those has been in construction long enough to know he hired the job out for a reason. 
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Posted: 11/30/2015 3:27:24 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You Wow. Settle down there tiger. http://www.strongtie.com/ftp/bulletins/T-PTWOOD08-R.pdf Cliff notes- new treatment is 'more' corrosive than the old copper stuff, however when, how and to what extent fasteners will corrode is unknown and variable. I'm not a contractor, I'm a civil engineer in the electric power industry. Show me a code requiring galvanized or stainless fasteners and you'll suddenly have liability to the engineer or contractor. I have never. Seen. A. Requirement. For. Fasteners. Show me a code. I don't spend a lot of time in the IBC or ASCE codes, but I am superficially familiar with them and the NDS code for wood construction. It's only a 'good idea' because you can't tell if or when it will be a problem. That means nothing, if it's not in the code it's because the link is too flimsy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
You Quoted:
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Then this is a problem with moisture. We have treated wood in Utah. We don't have moisture. We have no problems. You have treated wood. You have moisture. You have problems. I don't see how this can be blamed on a reaction of the treated wood. Treated wood with moisture? Maybe. Untreated wood with moisture? Same problem? Pretty tough to difinitively state this is an effect of wood treatment. Think of all the little 8 and 16 penny nails into treated wood. Sorry, I ain't buying it. Cite or BS. You're an example of why the construction industry is full of fail. The requirements for fasteners in ACQ treated wood have been out there for years, but fools constantly keep ignoring what the published guidance is, and then have the balls to defend what they do. Not my bond, not my problem. Your customer's lawyers will likely feel differently. ACQ FAQ Read the FAQ. Note carefully where they discuss the types of fasteners to be used around ACQ; at a minimum, they prescribe hot-dip galvanized or stainless steel. There's a reason for that, and it's because of corrosion issues, which are exacerbated by high moisture levels. Never mind me, I just read the fucking manuals that you didn't bother to. When the manufacturer tells you to do something, that's not because they're dicks, they're telling you how to avoid being sued into poverty when your projects fail. You use improper fasteners, and something fails, guess what: Your bond and insurance are worth dick to you, because the people who put them up have little clauses where they absolve themselves from paying out when you don't follow the manufacturer's guides and "general industry best practices". Disbelieve me? Read the fine print on your bond and insurance. You might want to re-think your attitude. Wow. Settle down there tiger. http://www.strongtie.com/ftp/bulletins/T-PTWOOD08-R.pdf Cliff notes- new treatment is 'more' corrosive than the old copper stuff, however when, how and to what extent fasteners will corrode is unknown and variable. I'm not a contractor, I'm a civil engineer in the electric power industry. Show me a code requiring galvanized or stainless fasteners and you'll suddenly have liability to the engineer or contractor. I have never. Seen. A. Requirement. For. Fasteners. Show me a code. I don't spend a lot of time in the IBC or ASCE codes, but I am superficially familiar with them and the NDS code for wood construction. It's only a 'good idea' because you can't tell if or when it will be a problem. That means nothing, if it's not in the code it's because the link is too flimsy. Yous asked for a cite. You lost. You are required to follow every manufacturers cite in using their materials. It is part of their listing. Their liability grinds to an instant end is you do not follow their instructions. The old green stuff was chromated copper arsenate (CCA). It worked well and remains allowed for certain uses. The arsenic component is linked to bladder cancer. Mostly for people working with the material daily. How many dust masks did you ever see? The new stuff is copper based. It greatly accelerates the corrosion of steel fasteners that are not well protected or made from certain types of stainless. Lag screws for ledgers have not been allowed in many jurisdictions for a long time now. After a rash of decks pulling away from supporting structures. |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 4:21:04 PM EDT
[#30]
So now another question. If those 2x10 joists are 16 feet long and reach the beam at 14ft how much weight can they typically support? No, I'm not planning on putting a hot tub up there, just curious from a numbers perspective. |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 4:32:54 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ledger is attached with 4.5in lag bolts. Yes, we installed a "z" board up under the siding and it runs along the ledger. (I will note, I ordered everything from a local lumber place so they included all necessary hardware).  |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 4:54:06 PM EDT
[#32]
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Hopefully not into the end grain of the underlying structure.
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Ledger is attached with 4.5in lag bolts. Yes, we installed a "z" board up under the siding and it runs along the ledger. (I will note, I ordered everything from a local lumber place so they included all necessary hardware).
No, we're good to go. |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 5:05:40 PM EDT
[#33]
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So now another question. If those 2x10 joists are 16 feet long and reach the beam at 14ft how much weight can they typically support? No, I'm not planning on putting a hot tub up there, just curious from a numbers perspective. For 14' span with a 2' cantilever, and 2x10s at 16" oc, assuming 10psf dead, it would carry ~30psf live, ignoring cantilever deflection (up), approaching failing the deflection check. Using DFS#2. Live Load Limit = L/360, Total Load Limit = L/240 BTW: ASCE-7 requires a 40psf design live load. You want to make it fly, use 2x10 @ 12' oc. Reactions would be about 370# and 480# Have it checked, I make no warranty. ETA: 
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Posted: 11/30/2015 5:12:52 PM EDT
[#34]
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For 14' span with a 2' cantilever, and 2x10s at 16" oc, assuming 10psf dead, it would carry ~30psf live, ignoring cantilever deflection (up), approaching failing the deflection check. Using DFS#2. Live Load Limit = L/360, Total Load Limit = L/240 BTW: ASCE-10 requires a 40psf design live load. You want to make it fly, use 2x10 @ 12' oc. Have it checked, I make no warranty. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So now another question. If those 2x10 joists are 16 feet long and reach the beam at 14ft how much weight can they typically support? No, I'm not planning on putting a hot tub up there, just curious from a numbers perspective. For 14' span with a 2' cantilever, and 2x10s at 16" oc, assuming 10psf dead, it would carry ~30psf live, ignoring cantilever deflection (up), approaching failing the deflection check. Using DFS#2. Live Load Limit = L/360, Total Load Limit = L/240 BTW: ASCE-10 requires a 40psf design live load. You want to make it fly, use 2x10 @ 12' oc. Have it checked, I make no warranty. I'll have to look at the distance again, but I believe the beam is 14' from the ledger and the cantilever is 20" so the boards are 2x10x15'8" (I believe) |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 5:20:53 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll have to look at the distance again, but I believe the beam is 14' from the ledger and the cantilever is 20" so the boards are 2x10x15'8" (I believe) Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So now another question. If those 2x10 joists are 16 feet long and reach the beam at 14ft how much weight can they typically support? No, I'm not planning on putting a hot tub up there, just curious from a numbers perspective. For 14' span with a 2' cantilever, and 2x10s at 16" oc, assuming 10psf dead, it would carry ~30psf live, ignoring cantilever deflection (up), approaching failing the deflection check. Using DFS#2. Live Load Limit = L/360, Total Load Limit = L/240 BTW: ASCE-10 requires a 40psf design live load. You want to make it fly, use 2x10 @ 12' oc. Have it checked, I make no warranty. I'll have to look at the distance again, but I believe the beam is 14' from the ledger and the cantilever is 20" so the boards are 2x10x15'8" (I believe) Does your jurisdiction require a snow load for design? |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 5:21:44 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll have to look at the distance again, but I believe the beam is 14' from the ledger and the cantilever is 20" so the boards are 2x10x15'8" (I believe) Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So now another question. If those 2x10 joists are 16 feet long and reach the beam at 14ft how much weight can they typically support? No, I'm not planning on putting a hot tub up there, just curious from a numbers perspective. For 14' span with a 2' cantilever, and 2x10s at 16" oc, assuming 10psf dead, it would carry ~30psf live, ignoring cantilever deflection (up), approaching failing the deflection check. Using DFS#2. Live Load Limit = L/360, Total Load Limit = L/240 BTW: ASCE-10 requires a 40psf design live load. You want to make it fly, use 2x10 @ 12' oc. Have it checked, I make no warranty. I'll have to look at the distance again, but I believe the beam is 14' from the ledger and the cantilever is 20" so the boards are 2x10x15'8" (I believe) Your ledger connection design is critical. |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 5:21:55 PM EDT
[#37]
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Does your jurisdiction require a snow load for design? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So now another question. If those 2x10 joists are 16 feet long and reach the beam at 14ft how much weight can they typically support? No, I'm not planning on putting a hot tub up there, just curious from a numbers perspective. For 14' span with a 2' cantilever, and 2x10s at 16" oc, assuming 10psf dead, it would carry ~30psf live, ignoring cantilever deflection (up), approaching failing the deflection check. Using DFS#2. Live Load Limit = L/360, Total Load Limit = L/240 BTW: ASCE-10 requires a 40psf design live load. You want to make it fly, use 2x10 @ 12' oc. Have it checked, I make no warranty. I'll have to look at the distance again, but I believe the beam is 14' from the ledger and the cantilever is 20" so the boards are 2x10x15'8" (I believe) Does your jurisdiction require a snow load for design? I'm in VA so I doubt it, but I'll look it up on the county website. Also I have a dropped beam. I'm looking at the state construction requirement docs and it noted the difference between flush and dropped. |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 5:25:56 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your avatar....put it back. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm going to tell you everything I know about connector plates: buy a palm nailer. Your avatar....put it back. Please. |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 5:29:16 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are also Simpson screws that meet the standard; homeowners might best be served by the screws, because they can be installed by any good drill/driver combo, or a small impact gun. That's what I've always used. Works great. |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 5:41:28 PM EDT
[#40]
If you've also got 30psf snow load, I'd switch to 2x12 at 12"oc, that's a long span. |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 5:42:42 PM EDT
[#41]
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Real carpenters don't use joist hangers, ever. ROFLMAO!!! that's a fucking stupid statement since most municipalities require them to meet code. deck collapses have caused many municipalities to re-evaluate their deck/carpentry code requirements. in many cases, things that were common place up until 10 years ago will never pass an inspection these days (which is very important if you ever want to sell the house that the deck is connected to). |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 5:44:21 PM EDT
[#42]
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ROFLMAO!!! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Real carpenters don't use joist hangers, ever. ROFLMAO!!! Carpenters . . . 
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Posted: 11/30/2015 5:47:28 PM EDT
[#43]
I'll get you guys some pics. Again, this is a local guy (town of 1000) and he's been in the business for 30 years. He's built many decks in the area. Not to mention has been a stickler every step of the way for what the county is going to require. For example, we realized we needed an additional post hole. The county requires they're inspected before you fill them or place a post in them. So, we stopped construction, dug the hole and told the county to come out to inspect the additional hole we made. |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 5:53:35 PM EDT
[#44]
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Treated lumber is corrosive to plain steel fasteners. Only hot dipped galvanized or stainless. Some deck screws are treated well but still will rust due to tool damage. BS Yeah, copper salts and steel get along like peas & carrots. dude, they completely changed the chemical treatments used to preserve PT lumber about 7 years ago. (used to use Chromated Copper Arsenic, now they use Boric Acid Mixtures) the chemicals used now, ARE corrosive to unprotected steel fasteners. ALL BUILDING CODES were revised after CCA treated lumber was no longer available to require Galvanized fasteners for any PT connection. |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 5:54:12 PM EDT
[#45]
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Once in a while, you come across a few that are in construction. Occasionally, one of those has been in construction long enough to know he hired the job out for a reason.
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So I'm not the only one. Nope, and you'd be a fool not to. Whether it's an Electrical Engineer who thinks he's qualified to do structural stuff, or some Chemical Engineer who thinks he knows how anything in construction is supposed to work, they all wind up costing us (and, themselves...) way more money than they're worth. Plus, they suck the joy out of the job. Nothing like having some guy with a degree who's convinced that that subject-matter irrelevant educational attainment somehow trumps twenty years of experience and practical knowledge. You get tired of giving in to them, doing as they say, and then having the building inspector give you a solid "WTF? You know better...", and makes you put it back the way it's supposed to go. Seriously, though... If you're a contractor, and the person paying the bills has any form of engineering degree, you're nuts if you don't jack your prices up to match the folly you're going to be subject to, or have an iron-clad contract that says they're responsible for the add-on costs they cause with their "help". Looking back, I think my most positive experiences as a contractor have come from outside the profession of engineer, and the most negative, from within it. Dentists? Great clients, generally. Doctors and lawyers? Worst or best, no in between. After awhile, it's not stereotyping, it's experience. Once in a while, you come across a few that are in construction. Occasionally, one of those has been in construction long enough to know he hired the job out for a reason.
Those are the ones I've worked for, I never had a problem with any of my engineer clients, of course they all have been at it for quite some time. |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 5:55:18 PM EDT
[#46]
the main reason I came here was to point out that so much has changed in what is acceptable and what isn't in carpentry in the last 10 years that a young carpenter (in the business for less than 10 years) probably knows a LOT more about what is acceptable and "to code" than a carpenter that's been swinging a hammer for 30 years.
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Posted: 11/30/2015 5:57:38 PM EDT
[#47]
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the main reason I came here was to point out that so much has changed in what is acceptable and what isn't in carpentry in the last 10 years that a young carpenter (in the business for less than 10 years) probably knows a LOT more about what is acceptable and "to code" than a carpenter that's been swinging a hammer for 30 years. I agree with this. |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 6:06:48 PM EDT
[#48]
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I agree with this. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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the main reason I came here was to point out that so much has changed in what is acceptable and what isn't in carpentry in the last 10 years that a young carpenter (in the business for less than 10 years) probably knows a LOT more about what is acceptable and "to code" than a carpenter that's been swinging a hammer for 30 years. I agree with this. A good one would still read their local building codes and be current or I'd assume they'd be out of work quickly if they kept failing final inspections, right? My guy has been at it for 30 years and every time he cited a county code it has been right there in the most recent version available from the county. |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 6:10:06 PM EDT
[#49]
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I agree with this. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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the main reason I came here was to point out that so much has changed in what is acceptable and what isn't in carpentry in the last 10 years that a young carpenter (in the business for less than 10 years) probably knows a LOT more about what is acceptable and "to code" than a carpenter that's been swinging a hammer for 30 years. I agree with this. case in point, split girders (two beams through bolted on the inside and outside of any posts) are acceptable many places. Georgia isn't one of them. - all girders must be fully supported (sitting on top of) each post. and that's just one change in the last 10 years that was done over a million times WRONG in the previous 10 years in Georgia. |
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Posted: 11/30/2015 6:10:42 PM EDT
[#50]
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A good one would still read their local building codes and be current or I'd assume they'd be out of work quickly if they kept failing final inspections, right? My guy has been at it for 30 years and every time he cited a county code it has been right there in the most recent version available from the county. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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the main reason I came here was to point out that so much has changed in what is acceptable and what isn't in carpentry in the last 10 years that a young carpenter (in the business for less than 10 years) probably knows a LOT more about what is acceptable and "to code" than a carpenter that's been swinging a hammer for 30 years. I agree with this. A good one would still read their local building codes and be current or I'd assume they'd be out of work quickly if they kept failing final inspections, right? My guy has been at it for 30 years and every time he cited a county code it has been right there in the most recent version available from the county. Yea, assuming your inspector is competent. Fairfax County: 
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