On the one hand, Jesus wants us to be compassionate and help the poor and homeless. On the other, most of the guys I see holding signs on the street corner begging for money seem fit enough to work. It seems like all the poor folks I see have made,and continue to make, bad decisions that keep them poor and homeless. Were the poor in the time of Christ of a different stripe, or was he truly directing us to care for the stupid and lazy? What am I missing here? What would Jesus do, and why?

In.

This is America.


A guy got rich selling a rock in a box...called it The Pet Rock.





If you can't get your shit together here and make a life...you're beyond fucked.

Homelessness is a choice.

I believe they deserve another chance.  Some do seem to make poor choices time after time, however there are people who will take advantage of the homeless.  All it takes is for us who can help is to help however that may be.  Providing a meal or extra clothing around ones home they haven't worn in awhile, take time and read to them......

Those are my thoughts.

"The deserving poor" is a myth. Always has been, and always will be. The exceptions to this rule are the children that have no influence on their situation.

You can't control the actions of others, only your own actions. I'm not Christian, but that's sort of where I think Jesus was going with that.

Compassion? Absolutely.

There are many other was to show compassion, than just material handouts.


I don't generally give to beggars, but I have.

I do smile and speak to them like a human being. Unless they are a fuckhead or aggressive.


What would Jesus do? Well, you'd have to ask him.

If the argument against government programs is that private charity can handle the need, then there has to be private charity
You can't argue against both.
Now, yes, the guys on the street corners with their "need help blah blah God Bless" signs are running a scam

Hard core homeless are mentally, emotionally and/or morally defective in ways that cannot be fixed.

Do what you want with your money

And how did the poor and indignant get that way in Jesus' time? People are still the same and always will be.

Through his divine wisdom, Jesus would know who deserved a handout or not.

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To me, some are worthy of help, some aren't.

If we are talking about my money, why can't I?

Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

I have worked with and around homeless folks over the last 25 years.

My observation is that most of them fit into one of three categories:

1. drug or alcohol addicted.

2. mentally ill.

3. Folks who could make it in life without difficulty but are unwilling to take on responsibility.

Often these categories overlap.

I have a lot of empathy for the mentally ill who are homeless. I have less empathy for those who are drug and alcohol addicted, and I have essentially none for those who are homeless by choice. If you want to help someone, don't give them money.  Spend some time, find out Who they are and which category they fall into, and at best buy them some food, or a blanket, sleeping bag or tarp, or buy them gas or give them a job.

One of the problems with blanket government programs is that no one is invested enough to try to figure out who the person is and whether they're just trying to work the system or it is really a person who has need. This is why individuals who actually had to work for their money and care about where it goes are much more cautious in terms of how it is spent on the homeless.  It is much easier to throw money at the problem, especially when it's not your money.

I work with folks who struggle with addiction through my church. One of them is on again off again guy in his mid 50s who is intermittently homeless. He actually has money from the state that comes each month to pay for housing, I believe it is an $800 a month housing allowance. He also is eligible for discount housing due to "disabilities".  It depends how together he has himself whether he actually spends the money housing or spends it on drugs.  I have in the past gone to Walmart with him and brought him food when he needed it. I bought him a tarp and a sleeping bag in the past. However, he knows I'm not going to get him a hotel room and he has never asked.  He has to at some point get tired of the life that he's living and take advantage of the opportunities that have been offered to him. This is not something I can do for him. It is something that enabling him will likely make less likely to happen in my opinion.

Loving him in this case means not making his life easier but allowing it to be hard when he chooses drugs over being sober. I don't think that Jesus would do anything different.

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Agreed, if you are a Christian you feel compassion and privately help them to improve their own lives if within your ability and means.

There are also many homeless who are truly mentally ill and incapable of improving their lot in life, and yes they deserve compassion.

Those who have ruined their lives through alcohol and drug abuse deserve the chance to right their ship, but it is their burden to carry.

"He who will not work shall not eat."

"Take care of the widows and orphans."

One group is lazy.

One group, through no fault of their own, needs help.

Jesus never meant for us to turn off our common senseometer when helping people.

I think The Lord would be disappointed with those who will not help those truly in need.  I think The Lord would also be disappointed by those who believe they are doing charity by stealing from others to give to those in need.  Systematic plunder is not compassion nor charity, and Jesus only ever wanted people to do things of their own free will without harming anyone else.

some maybe most of the beggars on street corners are scam artists.  Screw 'em.  If they ruined it for other poor people on street corners falls into not my problem category.



Not my job to take care of them.  If someone feels sorry for them they can take care of them

For these categories since they're on the streets and not in jail they should have the same rights as any other free men: to own guns for example. No?



 

Absolutely.

But for the Grace of God...... Many of them are messed up as a result of horrific family and home circumstances.  It would be easy for me to judge them having come from a great family life but I'm not about that.  I don't know what led them there, but most do not choose it willingly.

Now the so called less fortunate leaches on welfare, different story.

We should only help those who help themselves.  I will pick up my brother every time he falls.  I will not pick him up every time he sits down.

Because its one or the other, or a combination. "Neither" is not an option.
it's like the parents who argue against sex ed in schools saying its the parents responsibility, then wont give their kids any information.
No one said that you personally have to do anything with your own money, but if private charity is the expected form of aid, the cash to run those programs has to come from somewhere

That is insightful.

Altruism and charity are evil concepts.

Or people can earn their way, or starve.

Its the ones with a severe mental illness that I have compassion for.

That's not an option for some people
If you don't realize that you don't get out enough.

To people like comrade TC, there is no such thing as "your money".

All money belongs to the state and it's only by the state's grace that you are allowed to keep some of it.

Many of the current homeless would be in state mental facilities 30-40 years ago.

The cut in matching Medicaid funding in the Reagan years coupled with big pharma's assertion that their new and in-development meds allowed the nut-jobs to be released into the care of the community, lawsuits by do-gooders (backed with money by big pharma) is why the nut-houses closed in their hundreds.

The public was duped by the .gov and big pharma and the states could not afford to keep the nut-houses open.

The states were also getting hit with the results of The War on Drugs with mandatory sentencing and the need to build prison space. In my state two former nut-houses were converted to prisons in those years.

It was easier to decide to turn the nuts loose due to no more matching funding in order to build prisons where the states got matching funding from the feds.

It sort of boils down to that "Compassionate Conservatism" of the 80s not being so compassionate after all as it regards mental health.

Has someone been reading Ayn Rand?

Why are they evil?

I don't care what their options are.

Be willing to give a hand up but not a hand out.  It is up to you to determine where that line is drawn.  If a person can work, I will offer a simple task if they can't I will offer food.  I never give money handouts because too often that is used to support an addiction problem.  I don't want to enable a person to continue to feed an addiction.  

I am an atheist.  I have compassion just as many believers.

Very true. I work with them every day at work and this is usually the case.

Not recently, but that's where it comes from.

They're concepts that laud self sacrifice, they expect you to flagellate yourself in order to prove how "moral" and "good" you are.

Self sacrifice for the sake of itself is evil.

And the answer may really surprise you.

Show me where I've ever said that or shut up

Weren't those tax collectors? Or is that a different verse?

You have to care if you're going to make pat little comments like the one I replied to
Some people are simply INCAPABLE of 'working or starving"
There needs to be some form of aid, either public or private,  for those people in legitimate need

You may want to check your premises.

We're not talking about self-sacrifice for the sake of itself or to prove anything.  Would you not do everything you could to ensure your children have the best opportunity to succeed in life?

I think they were money changers.

I have been professionally involved with the 'homeless'.  Many are there by choice.  For many it is a choice to have that life rather than other options.

I can read between the lines, you love Big Brother more than almost anyone on this website.

They're incapable of starving?

That's a neat trick.

Your "reading between the lines" really means that you see what you want to see
I'm not an anarchist or libertarian who believes in minimalist levels of government
That doesn't mean I am in favor of a totalitarian government

And they typically don't stay homeless long, or at least they didn't in the pre Obama economy.

That isn't sacrifice, it's an investment in your family and their future. It's totally different to help your children than it is to help homeless bum #47892 on the street corner.

By definition sacrifice requires giving up something of value for something of lesser or no value.

At some point you just have to get the hell over it, after your mid 20's you can't blame a failing life on your childhood. Your own decisions are driving your failures at that point.

They're incapable of working
The mentally retarded guy I dealt with who is trapped for life inside his body while he sits there flailing around wildly clapping his hands in glee like a 1 year old will never be able to work.
The elderly people in some of the complexes I deal with are beyond an age where they can still work
And there are hundreds and thousands of these sorts of people in society

When you're a fit 20 or 30 something who's mad at life and the Boomers you think have ruined it all for your generation its EASY to say that people should "work or starve". Real easy to proudly proclaim it on an anonymous internet forum.
Whole different thing to deal with these issues in real life.
I'd suggest that maybe you go volunteer some time at one of the local non-profits and get an idea of the segment of society you're willing to throw under the bus.
And you think *I* am the problem in this conversation?
Get real.

Has it occurred to you that I don't care if they starve?