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Link Posted: 9/2/2015 4:59:10 PM EDT
[#1]
I wonder if this clerk came out as Libertarian and said

"I don't believe the State should be involved in marriage at all, so,as a result this office will not issue any "State Approval" for marriages. No licenses from this office, at all. If you want the Governments approval to marry, go to another county"

How many would still be screaming for her to lose her job or go to jail
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 5:00:40 PM EDT
[#2]
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Quoted:


No they do not. The establishment clause prohibits that. 99% of the population can vote to have Christianity made the official religion and it would not be legal.
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You should move to some theocratic nation if that's what you want. America is a secular nation, the laws of god have no power or authority here.


They do if the electorate so chooses.


No they do not. The establishment clause prohibits that. 99% of the population can vote to have Christianity made the official religion and it would not be legal.


I don't think you understand how the Constitution works.  if 99% of the population wanted Christianity as the official religion, and so voted on a Constitutional Amendment to make it so, it would be so.

Never going to happen, but your statement is incorrect.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 5:04:15 PM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:Seems like he basically agrees that marriage is a right. The issue, I think, is this deals with the 14th amendment-which specifically includes a part dealing with how the government handles documents and basic legal acts. Given the 14th was ratified roughly a hundred years after the original ratification-long after the framers were dead, and with none of their input-so disregarding something simply because the Framers didn't consider it, even when a part added later does, is probably not the best path. I really just don't buy his argument.
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Quoted:Seems like he basically agrees that marriage is a right. The issue, I think, is this deals with the 14th amendment-which specifically includes a part dealing with how the government handles documents and basic legal acts. Given the 14th was ratified roughly a hundred years after the original ratification-long after the framers were dead, and with none of their input-so disregarding something simply because the Framers didn't consider it, even when a part added later does, is probably not the best path. I really just don't buy his argument.


I agree that I believe this should have been left in the hands of the states for the reasons you have mentioned.

That is an excellent point and Scalia spends a great deal of time discussing that issue.

Thomas's dissent goes into the technical merits of the 14th amendment far more than either Roberts or Scalia.

Scalia's point, and I agree with him, is that marriage itself is a right however the government license and the benefits that flow from that license is not.

Here are some relevant sections on the matter:

Scalia:

These cases ask us to decide whether the Fourteenth
Amendment contains a limitation that requires the States
to license and recognize marriages between two people of
the same sex. Does it remove that issue from the political
process?

Of course not. It would be surprising to find a prescription
regarding marriage in the Federal Constitution since,
as the author of today’s opinion reminded us only two
years ago (in an opinion joined by the same Justices who
join him today):

“[R]egulation of domestic relations is an area that has
long been regarded as a virtually exclusive province of
the States.”10

“[T]he Federal Government, through our history, has
deferred to state-law policy decisions with respect to
domestic relations.”11

But we need not speculate. When the Fourteenth
Amendment was ratified in 1868, every State limited
marriage to one man and one woman, and no one doubted
the constitutionality of doing so. That resolves these
cases. When it comes to determining the meaning of a
vague constitutional provision—such as “due process of
law” or “equal protection of the laws”—it is unquestionable
that the People who ratified that provision did not understand
it to prohibit a practice that remained both universal
and uncontroversial in the years after ratification.12
We have no basis for striking down a practice that is not
expressly prohibited by the Fourteenth Amendment’s text,
and that bears the endorsement of a long tradition of open,
widespread, and unchallenged use dating back to the
Amendment’s ratification.
Since there is no doubt whatever
that the People never decided to prohibit the limitation
of marriage to opposite-sex couples, the public debate
over same-sex marriage must be allowed to continue.
But the Court ends this debate, in an opinion lacking
even a thin veneer of law. Buried beneath the mummeries
and straining-to-be-memorable passages of the opinion is a
candid and startling assertion: No matter what it was the
People ratified, the Fourteenth Amendment protects those
rights that the Judiciary, in its “reasoned judgment,”
thinks the Fourteenth Amendment ought to protect.13
That is so because “[t]he generations that wrote and ratified
the Bill of Rights and the Fourteenth Amendment did
not presume to know the extent of freedom in all of its dimensions . . . . ”14

One would think that sentence would
continue: “. . . and therefore they provided for a means by
which the People could amend the Constitution,” or perhaps
“. . . and therefore they left the creation of additional
liberties, such as the freedom to marry someone of the
same sex, to the People, through the never-ending process
of legislation.” But no. What logically follows, in the
majority’s judge-empowering estimation, is: “and so they
entrusted to future generations a charter protecting the
right of all persons to enjoy liberty as we learn its meaning.”15
The “we,” needless to say, is the nine of us. “History
and tradition guide and discipline [our] inquiry but do
not set its outer boundaries.”16 Thus, rather than focusing
on the People’s understanding of “liberty”—at the time of
ratification or even today—the majority focuses on four
“principles and traditions” that, in the majority’s view,
prohibit States from defining marriage as an institution
consisting of one man and one woman.17


...

But what really astounds is the hubris reflected in
today’s judicial Putsch. The five Justices who compose
today’s majority are entirely comfortable concluding that
every State violated the Constitution for all of the 135
years between the Fourteenth Amendment’s ratification
and Massachusetts’ permitting of same-sex marriages in
2003.20 They have discovered in the Fourteenth Amendment
a “fundamental right” overlooked by every person
alive at the time of ratification, and almost everyone else
in the time since. They see what lesser legal minds—
minds like Thomas Cooley, John Marshall Harlan, Oliver
Wendell Holmes, Jr., Learned Hand, Louis Brandeis,
William Howard Taft, Benjamin Cardozo, Hugo Black,
Felix Frankfurter, Robert Jackson, and Henry Friendly—
could not. They are certain that the People ratified the
Fourteenth Amendment to bestow on them the power to
remove questions from the democratic process when that
is called for by their “reasoned judgment.”



Justice Thomas:



...

Even if the doctrine of substantive due process were
somehow defensible—it is not—petitioners still would not
have a claim. To invoke the protection of the Due Process
Clause at all—whether under a theory of “substantive” or
“procedural” due process—a party must first identify a
deprivation of “life, liberty, or property.” The majority
claims these state laws deprive petitioners of “liberty,” but
the concept of “liberty” it conjures up bears no resemblance
to any plausible meaning of that word as it is used
in the Due Process Clauses.

As used in the Due Process Clauses, “liberty” most likely
refers to “the power of loco-motion, of changing situation,
or removing one’s person to whatsoever place one’s own
inclination may direct; without imprisonment or restraint,
unless by due course of law.” 1 W. Blackstone, Commentaries
on the Laws of England 130 (1769) (Blackstone).
That definition is drawn from the historical roots of the
Clauses and is consistent with our Constitution’s text and
structure.

...

The Framers drew heavily upon Blackstone’s formulation,
adopting provisions in early State Constitutions that
replicated Magna Carta’s language, but were modified to
refer specifically to “life, liberty, or property.”3 State decisions interpreting these provisions between the founding
and the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment
almost uniformly construed the word “liberty” to refer only
to freedom from physical restraint. See Warren, The New
“Liberty” Under the Fourteenth Amendment, 39 Harv.
L. Rev. 431, 441–445 (1926). Even one case that has been
identified as a possible exception to that view merely used
broad language about liberty in the context of a habeas
corpus proceeding—a proceeding classically associated
with obtaining freedom from physical restraint. Cf. id., at
444–445.
In enacting the Fifth Amendment’s Due Process Clause,
the Framers similarly chose to employ the “life, liberty, or
property” formulation, though they otherwise deviated
substantially from the States’ use of Magna Carta’s language
in the Clause. See Shattuck, The True Meaning of
the Term “Liberty” in Those Clauses in the Federal and
State Constitutions Which Protect “Life, Liberty, and
Property,” 4 Harv. L. Rev. 365, 382 (1890). When read in
light of the history of that formulation, it is hard to see
how the “liberty” protected by the Clause could be interpreted
to include anything broader than freedom from
physical restraint. That was the consistent usage of the
time when “liberty” was paired with “life” and “property.”
See id., at 375. And that usage avoids rendering superfluous
those protections for “life” and “property.”
If the Fifth Amendment uses “liberty” in this narrow
sense, then the Fourteenth Amendment likely does as
well. See Hurtado v. California, 110 U. S. 516, 534–535
(1884). Indeed, this Court has previously commented,
“The conclusion is . . . irresistible, that when the same
phrase was employed in the Fourteenth Amendment [as
was used in the Fifth Amendment], it was used in the
same sense and with no greater extent.” Ibid. And this Court’s earliest Fourteenth Amendment decisions appear
to interpret the Clause as using “liberty” to mean freedom
from physical restraint. In Munn v. Illinois, 94 U. S. 113
(1877), for example, the Court recognized the relationship
between the two Due Process Clauses and Magna Carta,
see id., at 123–124, and implicitly rejected the dissent’s
argument that “‘liberty’” encompassed “something more
. . . than mere freedom from physical restraint or the
bounds of a prison,” id., at 142 (Field, J., dissenting). That
the Court appears to have lost its way in more recent
years does not justify deviating from the original meaning
of the Clauses.

Even assuming that the “liberty” in those Clauses encompasses
something more than freedom from physical
restraint, it would not include the types of rights claimed
by the majority. In the American legal tradition, liberty
has long been understood as individual freedom from
governmental action, not as a right to a particular governmental
entitlement.




Quoted:The thing to remember is the verb form of 'amendment' is 'amend', and a synonym for 'amend' is 'change'. So past the BOR, you're looking at a sequential progression of changes that modify the original document, with latter ones taking precedent over conflicting earlier ones.   This is why we now have individual income tax, direct election of senators, blacks as citizens, women voting, and a BOR incorporated against state and local governments. We also have an interesting case of two changes conflicting, where the latter 21st change specifically nullified the earlier 18th change. My concern really, is that we're in far enough of a gray area where reasonable people can disagree, and the legal reasoning had become more interpretitive instead of explicit. I thing long term it may have been better to work the legislative side, seeing as how rapidly opinion was changing. I say that even considering how the issue impacts me, as before I had no real way to have a truly inviolate marriage. Many states would have only allowed me to marry a man, and yet I still ran the risk of any such marriage being invalidated due to my birth status.


I have no issue or complication with amending our Constitution.     The issue here lies in the interpretation of the 14th amendment.

I want to be clear here:   my primary concern is not the issue of gay marriage but rather how that issue was decided.

Roberts, Scalia, and Thomas said more or less the same thing in their dissents.    When these three legal minds say the following, we have some serious problems here:


The Court’s decision today is at odds not only with the
Constitution, but with the principles upon which our
Nation was built.   - Thomas


I write separately
to call attention to this Court’s threat to American
democracy.


....

This is a naked judicial claim to legislative—indeed,
super-legislative—power; a claim fundamentally at odds
with our system of government.
Except as limited by a
constitutional prohibition agreed to by the People, the
States are free to adopt whatever laws they like, even
those that offend the esteemed Justices’ “reasoned judgment.”
A system of government that makes the People
subordinate to a committee of nine unelected lawyers does
not deserve to be called a democracy.    - Scalia


Today, however, the Court takes the extraordinary step
of ordering every State to license and recognize same-sex
marriage. Many people will rejoice at this decision, and I
begrudge none their celebration. But for those who believe
in a government of laws, not of men, the majority’s approach
is deeply disheartening. Supporters of same-sex
marriage have achieved considerable success persuading
their fellow citizens—through the democratic process—to
adopt their view. That ends today. Five lawyers have
closed the debate and enacted their own vision of marriage
as a matter of constitutional law. Stealing this issue from
the people will for many cast a cloud over same-sex marriage,
making a dramatic social change that much more
difficult to accept. The majority’s decision is an act of will,
not legal judgment.
The right it announces has no basis in the Constitution
or this Court’s precedent.
The majority expressly
disclaims judicial “caution” and omits even a pretense of
humility, openly relying on its desire to remake society
according to its own “new insight” into the “nature of
injustice.” Ante, at 11, 23. As a result, the Court invalidates
the marriage laws of more than half the States and
orders the transformation of a social institution that has
formed the basis of human society for millennia, for the
Kalahari Bushmen and the Han Chinese, the Carthaginians
and the Aztecs. Just who do we think we are?    - Roberts



From Obergefell v. Hodges  
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 5:05:00 PM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:


It isn't one of the enumerated ones, yes. The funny thing about the enumerated rights in the BOR is they were all the ones specifically in contention at the time, which explains the oddity of the 3rd Amendment. They were also afraid people would claim the only rights protected were the ones specifically enumerated, so Madison included the 9th to clarify the existence and protection of rights not so enumerated.

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that had the British imposed ridiculous requirements on marriage, that marriage would have been specifically included in the BOR as the right it in fact is, and it's been recognized as a right multiple times since the early 1800s. With that said rights are generally not absolute, and we're so far off in a grey area legally I can see how reasonable people would have differing interpretations.
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No, in a constitutional republic the majority cannot violate the rights of the minority.


Marriage is not a right, and the majority can do what it wishes in the areas not prohibited to ti.  Like zoning laws, and regulating marriage.


It isn't one of the enumerated ones, yes. The funny thing about the enumerated rights in the BOR is they were all the ones specifically in contention at the time, which explains the oddity of the 3rd Amendment. They were also afraid people would claim the only rights protected were the ones specifically enumerated, so Madison included the 9th to clarify the existence and protection of rights not so enumerated.

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that had the British imposed ridiculous requirements on marriage, that marriage would have been specifically included in the BOR as the right it in fact is, and it's been recognized as a right multiple times since the early 1800s. With that said rights are generally not absolute, and we're so far off in a grey area legally I can see how reasonable people would have differing interpretations.


I'm fairly certain the British didn't allow gay marriage either, and the founding fathers found that so strange that they completely failed to address it in the BOR.  I wonder why.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 5:06:12 PM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:
By her own words she's executing the will of god as she understands it, not necessarily the will of the people of KY.    
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She's executing the will of the people of KY as elected to do.  

By her own words she's executing the will of god as she understands it, not necessarily the will of the people of KY.    


She's an elected official in the state of KY.  If they don't agree with her, they can recall her relatively easily.  Until they do so, she's executing the will of the people.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 5:20:28 PM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:


She's an elected official in the state of KY.  If they don't agree with her, they can recall her relatively easily.  Until they do so, she's executing the will of the people.
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She's executing the will of the people of KY as elected to do.  

By her own words she's executing the will of god as she understands it, not necessarily the will of the people of KY.    


She's an elected official in the state of KY.  If they don't agree with her, they can recall her relatively easily.  Until they do so, she's executing the will of the people.



Ky opposition to gay marriage grows, poll finds
.

Showing a possible backlash to judicial decisions favoring gay marriage, the percentage of registered voters in Kentucky opposing it has increased to 57 percent this month compared to 50 percent in July.

A Bluegrass Poll conducted March 3-8 shows that support for gay marriage also has dropped, from 37 percent to 33 percent.


http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2015/03/12/gay-marriage-sex-marriage-bluegrass-poll-kentucky/70203200/
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 5:31:15 PM EDT
[#7]
I'm not really fully onboard with Thomas' focus on merely ensuring non interference, as there are parts if the Constitution dealing with equal application of due process in other government legal acts, documents, and such. And it is part of the 'dissent' for a reason. Like it or not, the government can't be arbitrary in how it deals with issuing all the various things it does issue. The question at hand is what exactly falls under being "arbitrary" or not.  

I think Loving v. VA was probably a stronger and more explicit case, while this one may be a little too tenous for my liking. I would have much rather gone a legislative route, given the changing opinions. It wouldnt have taken that long, plus it would have been less contentious.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 5:38:33 PM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:


I'm fairly certain the British didn't allow gay marriage either, and the founding fathers found that so strange that they completely failed to address it in the BOR.  I wonder why.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:


No, in a constitutional republic the majority cannot violate the rights of the minority.


Marriage is not a right, and the majority can do what it wishes in the areas not prohibited to ti.  Like zoning laws, and regulating marriage.


It isn't one of the enumerated ones, yes. The funny thing about the enumerated rights in the BOR is they were all the ones specifically in contention at the time, which explains the oddity of the 3rd Amendment. They were also afraid people would claim the only rights protected were the ones specifically enumerated, so Madison included the 9th to clarify the existence and protection of rights not so enumerated.

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that had the British imposed ridiculous requirements on marriage, that marriage would have been specifically included in the BOR as the right it in fact is, and it's been recognized as a right multiple times since the early 1800s. With that said rights are generally not absolute, and we're so far off in a grey area legally I can see how reasonable people would have differing interpretations.


I'm fairly certain the British didn't allow gay marriage either, and the founding fathers found that so strange that they completely failed to address it in the BOR.  I wonder why.


The specific claim addressed was one that insisted marriage in general wasn't a right, implied so because it wasn't mentioned in the BOR. I guarantee that if the british outlawed marriage or imposed a heavy and punitive tax upon it, it would have made the enumerated list.

You're correct gay marriage was not exactly widespread then, and is mostly a recent phenomenon. Thus the more tenous claim than even Loving.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 5:51:38 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:
I'm not really fully onboard with Thomas' focus on merely ensuring non interference, as there are parts if the Constitution dealing with equal application of due process in other government legal acts, documents, and such. And it is part of the 'dissent' for a reason. Like it or not, the government can't be arbitrary in how it deals with issuing all the various things it does issue. The question at hand is what exactly falls under being "arbitrary" or not.  

I think Loving v. VA was probably a stronger and more explicit case, while this one may be a little too tenous for my liking. I would have much rather gone a legislative route, given the changing opinions. It wouldnt have taken that long, plus it would have been less contentious.
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I couldn't agree more. The end result would have eventually been the same.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 5:56:32 PM EDT
[#10]
The gnashing of teeth would be strong with ARFcom if the below [parody] "exercise in religious freedom" actually happened in Dearborn, MI.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 5:59:03 PM EDT
[#11]

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Quoted:
She's an elected official in the state of KY.  If they don't agree with her, they can recall her relatively easily.  Until they do so, she's executing the will of the people.
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Quoted:


Quoted:



She's executing the will of the people of KY as elected to do.  



By her own words she's executing the will of god as she understands it, not necessarily the will of the people of KY.    




She's an elected official in the state of KY.  If they don't agree with her, they can recall her relatively easily.  Until they do so, she's executing the will of the people.
I think Governor Wallace made much the same argument....

 
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 6:00:32 PM EDT
[#12]
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So in other words, there is no constitutional protection that requires states that honor some out of state licensee to honor them all?

Please read the dissents I posted and then go and read Robert's dissent.  

Obergefell v. Hodges.

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For the first one, they don't generally need to retake the test.  (lawyers excepted, and PE's in California and Flordia due to earthquake and hurricane building codes IIRC)  Medial people don't.  They do need to maintain their first license though.  

It should be, but it is not.  It shouldn't be required for that matter.


So in other words, there is no constitutional protection that requires states that honor some out of state licensee to honor them all?

Please read the dissents I posted and then go and read Robert's dissent.  

Obergefell v. Hodges.


Name one state that doesn't acknowledge a marriage in another state as legally valid it is between a man and a woman.  Now, if you are doing it for one couple, you have to do it for all of them.

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 6:03:39 PM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:


The specific claim addressed was one that insisted marriage in general wasn't a right, implied so because it wasn't mentioned in the BOR. I guarantee that if the british outlawed marriage or imposed a heavy and punitive tax upon it, it would have made the enumerated list.

You're correct gay marriage was not exactly widespread then, and is mostly a recent phenomenon. Thus the more tenous claim than even Loving.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:


No, in a constitutional republic the majority cannot violate the rights of the minority.


Marriage is not a right, and the majority can do what it wishes in the areas not prohibited to ti.  Like zoning laws, and regulating marriage.


It isn't one of the enumerated ones, yes. The funny thing about the enumerated rights in the BOR is they were all the ones specifically in contention at the time, which explains the oddity of the 3rd Amendment. They were also afraid people would claim the only rights protected were the ones specifically enumerated, so Madison included the 9th to clarify the existence and protection of rights not so enumerated.

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that had the British imposed ridiculous requirements on marriage, that marriage would have been specifically included in the BOR as the right it in fact is, and it's been recognized as a right multiple times since the early 1800s. With that said rights are generally not absolute, and we're so far off in a grey area legally I can see how reasonable people would have differing interpretations.


I'm fairly certain the British didn't allow gay marriage either, and the founding fathers found that so strange that they completely failed to address it in the BOR.  I wonder why.


The specific claim addressed was one that insisted marriage in general wasn't a right, implied so because it wasn't mentioned in the BOR. I guarantee that if the british outlawed marriage or imposed a heavy and punitive tax upon it, it would have made the enumerated list.

You're correct gay marriage was not exactly widespread then, and is mostly a recent phenomenon. Thus the more tenous claim than even Loving.


I'm not convinced it would have.  Why is governmental recognition of your personal relationships a right equivalent to your right to self defense and your right to free speech?
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 6:04:41 PM EDT
[#14]
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Quoted:

Name one state that doesn't acknowledge a marriage in another state as legally valid it is between a man and a woman.  Now, if you are doing it for one couple, you have to do it for all of them.

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
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For the first one, they don't generally need to retake the test.  (lawyers excepted, and PE's in California and Flordia due to earthquake and hurricane building codes IIRC)  Medial people don't.  They do need to maintain their first license though.  

It should be, but it is not.  It shouldn't be required for that matter.


So in other words, there is no constitutional protection that requires states that honor some out of state licensee to honor them all?

Please read the dissents I posted and then go and read Robert's dissent.  

Obergefell v. Hodges.


Name one state that doesn't acknowledge a marriage in another state as legally valid it is between a man and a woman.  Now, if you are doing it for one couple, you have to do it for all of them.

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


and the 14th Amendment was for:
a)  newly freed slaves that had no civil rights and were considered 3/5s a person.
or
b) homosexuals so that they could feel normal.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 6:06:17 PM EDT
[#15]
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I wonder if this clerk came out as Libertarian and said

"I don't believe the State should be involved in marriage at all, so,as a result this office will not issue any "State Approval" for marriages. No licenses from this office, at all. If you want the Governments approval to marry, go to another county"

How many would still be screaming for her to lose her job or go to jail
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If that were the case, she'd resign.

But that isn't what she said.   She said she wasn't going to issue marriage licenses on "God's authority."
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 6:47:35 PM EDT
[#16]
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and the 14th Amendment was for:
a)  newly freed slaves that had no civil rights and were considered 3/5s a person.
or
b) homosexuals so that they could feel normal.
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For the first one, they don't generally need to retake the test.  (lawyers excepted, and PE's in California and Flordia due to earthquake and hurricane building codes IIRC)  Medial people don't.  They do need to maintain their first license though.  

It should be, but it is not.  It shouldn't be required for that matter.


So in other words, there is no constitutional protection that requires states that honor some out of state licensee to honor them all?

Please read the dissents I posted and then go and read Robert's dissent.  

Obergefell v. Hodges.


Name one state that doesn't acknowledge a marriage in another state as legally valid it is between a man and a woman.  Now, if you are doing it for one couple, you have to do it for all of them.

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


and the 14th Amendment was for:
a)  newly freed slaves that had no civil rights and were considered 3/5s a person.
or
b) homosexuals so that they could feel normal.


This isn't about feeling normal - it is about the same legal rights.

Our legal system has nothing to do with your interpretation of the Bible and what it says.

Christians have a long and rich history of entering into marriages for little reason other than cementing legal agreements and managing of power and resources.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 7:04:37 PM EDT
[#17]
This is the funny part, Wait for it............Kim Davis Is A Democrat.

Liberal Homo's heads explode -- divide by zero error .....

Link Posted: 9/2/2015 7:05:20 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


This isn't about feeling normal - it is about the same legal rights.

Our legal system has nothing to do with your interpretation of the Bible and what it says.

Christians have a long and rich history of entering into marriages for little reason other than cementing legal agreements and managing of power and resources.
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Quoted:
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For the first one, they don't generally need to retake the test.  (lawyers excepted, and PE's in California and Flordia due to earthquake and hurricane building codes IIRC)  Medial people don't.  They do need to maintain their first license though.  

It should be, but it is not.  It shouldn't be required for that matter.


So in other words, there is no constitutional protection that requires states that honor some out of state licensee to honor them all?

Please read the dissents I posted and then go and read Robert's dissent.  

Obergefell v. Hodges.


Name one state that doesn't acknowledge a marriage in another state as legally valid it is between a man and a woman.  Now, if you are doing it for one couple, you have to do it for all of them.

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


and the 14th Amendment was for:
a)  newly freed slaves that had no civil rights and were considered 3/5s a person.
or
b) homosexuals so that they could feel normal.


This isn't about feeling normal - it is about the same legal rights.

Our legal system has nothing to do with your interpretation of the Bible and what it says.

Christians have a long and rich history of entering into marriages for little reason other than cementing legal agreements and managing of power and resources.



I have commented voluminously in this thread so find a quote from the Bible.  Up your game because you are in way over your depth.  Anxiously waiting for a well reasoned response, please don't disappoint.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 7:09:32 PM EDT
[#19]
Why do we need a license to get married again? Someone please remind me.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 7:14:49 PM EDT
[#20]
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Quoted:



I'm not convinced it would have.  Why is governmental recognition of your personal relationships a right equivalent to your right to self defense and your right to free speech?
View Quote


I'm convinced they would have. I don't see why something like a hypothetical policy imposing a heavy and punitive tax before marriage is allowed, wouldn't have ended up in the BOR like the oddly specific 3rd amendment preventing troops from being quartered in homes. That never would have it been brought up if it never happened, and if it had never happened no one would have really thought of it or considered it worth adding.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 7:16:12 PM EDT
[#21]
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Quoted:
Why do we need a license to get married again? Someone please remind me.
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Short answer? Democrats.

Democrats wanted to prevent Miscegenation (marriage between races) by having the state control it. Prior to that the church was in the marriage business.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 7:28:23 PM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:
I'm not really fully onboard with Thomas' focus on merely ensuring non interference, as there are parts if the Constitution dealing with equal application of due process in other government legal acts, documents, and such. And it is part of the 'dissent' for a reason. Like it or not, the government can't be arbitrary in how it deals with issuing all the various things it does issue. The question at hand is what exactly falls under being "arbitrary" or not.  

I think Loving v. VA was probably a stronger and more explicit case, while this one may be a little too tenous for my liking. I would have much rather gone a legislative route, given the changing opinions. It wouldnt have taken that long, plus it would have been less contentious.
View Quote


Loving was a stronger case because it dealt with differential treatment based on race, which is what the 14thAm was adopted to prevent.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 7:31:49 PM EDT
[#23]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


This is the funny part, Wait for it............Kim Davis Is A Democrat.



Liberal Homo's heads explode -- divide by zero error .....



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CN7bvS-VAAArlGU.png:large
View Quote
It really is the best part of it for me....

 



Although Democrat in those parts means entirely different things vs the socialists in office using it now.   It's a safe bet she didn't vote for Obama, either time.




Not that I endorse what she is doing, but having lived in Morehead for 4 years once upon a time, I can see why the chances of ousting her are slim, at least in the immediate future.  They will attempt to register all the college students to vote, but that will take a while.  Registering the college to vote is how Morehead became wet.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 7:34:46 PM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:


I'm convinced they would have. I don't see why something like a hypothetical policy imposing a heavy and punitive tax before marriage is allowed, wouldn't have ended up in the BOR like the oddly specific 3rd amendment preventing troops from being quartered in homes. That never would have it been brought up if it never happened, and if it had never happened no one would have really thought of it or considered it worth adding.
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I'm not convinced it would have.  Why is governmental recognition of your personal relationships a right equivalent to your right to self defense and your right to free speech?


I'm convinced they would have. I don't see why something like a hypothetical policy imposing a heavy and punitive tax before marriage is allowed, wouldn't have ended up in the BOR like the oddly specific 3rd amendment preventing troops from being quartered in homes. That never would have it been brought up if it never happened, and if it had never happened no one would have really thought of it or considered it worth adding.


I think you don't understand the founding fathers and what they were trying to do or who they were very well.

The concept that two men would have a god-given right to get married would have been laughable to them.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 7:35:57 PM EDT
[#25]
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Quoted:
Name one state that doesn't acknowledge a marriage in another state as legally valid it is between a man and a woman.  Now, if you are doing it for one couple, you have to do it for all of them.

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
View Quote


A4S1: "Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof."  

DOMA was passed pursuant to the second sentence, and relieved states of any obligation to honor same-sex foreign marriages. Pursuant to DOMA and their own policies, most states which did not permit same-sex marriage did not recognize same-sex foreign marriages.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 7:39:30 PM EDT
[#26]
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Quoted:


I think you don't understand the founding fathers and what they were trying to do or who they were very well.

The concept that two men would have a god-given right to get married would have been laughable to them.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:



I'm not convinced it would have.  Why is governmental recognition of your personal relationships a right equivalent to your right to self defense and your right to free speech?


I'm convinced they would have. I don't see why something like a hypothetical policy imposing a heavy and punitive tax before marriage is allowed, wouldn't have ended up in the BOR like the oddly specific 3rd amendment preventing troops from being quartered in homes. That never would have it been brought up if it never happened, and if it had never happened no one would have really thought of it or considered it worth adding.


I think you don't understand the founding fathers and what they were trying to do or who they were very well.

The concept that two men would have a god-given right to get married would have been laughable to them.


Read again. I never mentioned gay marriage here, and wasn't referring to it whatsoever in this specific sub-discussion.  

Any specific theoretical amendment at the time would have of course referenced opposite sex marriage, due to the mores of the time.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 7:40:01 PM EDT
[#27]
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Quoted:


Loving was a stronger case because it dealt with differential treatment based on race, which is what the 14thAm was adopted to prevent.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm not really fully onboard with Thomas' focus on merely ensuring non interference, as there are parts if the Constitution dealing with equal application of due process in other government legal acts, documents, and such. And it is part of the 'dissent' for a reason. Like it or not, the government can't be arbitrary in how it deals with issuing all the various things it does issue. The question at hand is what exactly falls under being "arbitrary" or not.  

I think Loving v. VA was probably a stronger and more explicit case, while this one may be a little too tenous for my liking. I would have much rather gone a legislative route, given the changing opinions. It wouldnt have taken that long, plus it would have been less contentious.


Loving was a stronger case because it dealt with differential treatment based on race, which is what the 14thAm was adopted to prevent.


That was my point.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 7:43:01 PM EDT
[#28]
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Quoted:


Read again. I never mentioned gay marriage here, and wasn't referring to it whatsoever in this specific sub-discussion.  

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I'm not convinced it would have.  Why is governmental recognition of your personal relationships a right equivalent to your right to self defense and your right to free speech?


I'm convinced they would have. I don't see why something like a hypothetical policy imposing a heavy and punitive tax before marriage is allowed, wouldn't have ended up in the BOR like the oddly specific 3rd amendment preventing troops from being quartered in homes. That never would have it been brought up if it never happened, and if it had never happened no one would have really thought of it or considered it worth adding.


I think you don't understand the founding fathers and what they were trying to do or who they were very well.

The concept that two men would have a god-given right to get married would have been laughable to them.


Read again. I never mentioned gay marriage here, and wasn't referring to it whatsoever in this specific sub-discussion.  



That's your end state though.  You're trying to find a right to be able to marry anybody you want, which the founding fathers would have laughed at -- primarily because nobody had a right to get married to anybody they wanted then or throughout most of recorded history.

Link Posted: 9/2/2015 7:53:01 PM EDT
[#29]
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Quoted:

That's your end state though.  You're trying to find a right to be able to marry anybody you want, which the founding fathers would have laughed at -- primarily because nobody had a right to get married to anybody they wanted then or throughout most of recorded history.

View Quote


No it isn't. This particular discussion is what's known as a 'tangent', and covers the area of whether or not marriage in general is included under unenumerated rights. My response is a thought experiment as to how the framers would have responded to british interference, and I have to say I think it would have been explicitly included in the BOR somehow. The question of whether or not that right extends to covering gay marriage specifically is a separate argument, and one difficult to reach without stacking rulings precipitously.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 7:58:11 PM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


No it isn't. This particular discussion is what's known as a 'tangent', and covers the area of whether or not marriage in general is included under unenumerated rights. My response is a thought experiment as to how the framers would have responded to british interference, and I have to say I think it would have been explicitly included in the BOR somehow. The question of whether or not that right extends to covering gay marriage specifically is a separate argument, and one difficult to reach without stacking rulings precipitously.
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Quoted:

That's your end state though.  You're trying to find a right to be able to marry anybody you want, which the founding fathers would have laughed at -- primarily because nobody had a right to get married to anybody they wanted then or throughout most of recorded history.



No it isn't. This particular discussion is what's known as a 'tangent', and covers the area of whether or not marriage in general is included under unenumerated rights. My response is a thought experiment as to how the framers would have responded to british interference, and I have to say I think it would have been explicitly included in the BOR somehow. The question of whether or not that right extends to covering gay marriage specifically is a separate argument, and one difficult to reach without stacking rulings precipitously.


Again, throughout essentially all of recorded history, no one had a right to marry anyone they wanted -- male or female, gay or straight.  If the founding fathers had thought that was some infringement of people's rights, they'd have put it in the BOR.  They didn't.

Link Posted: 9/2/2015 8:13:42 PM EDT
[#31]
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Quoted:


Again, throughout essentially all of recorded history, no one had a right to marry anyone they wanted -- male or female, gay or straight.  If the founding fathers had thought that was some infringement of people's rights, they'd have put it in the BOR.  They didn't.

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Quoted:
Quoted:

That's your end state though.  You're trying to find a right to be able to marry anybody you want, which the founding fathers would have laughed at -- primarily because nobody had a right to get married to anybody they wanted then or throughout most of recorded history.



No it isn't. This particular discussion is what's known as a 'tangent', and covers the area of whether or not marriage in general is included under unenumerated rights. My response is a thought experiment as to how the framers would have responded to british interference, and I have to say I think it would have been explicitly included in the BOR somehow. The question of whether or not that right extends to covering gay marriage specifically is a separate argument, and one difficult to reach without stacking rulings precipitously.


Again, throughout essentially all of recorded history, no one had a right to marry anyone they wanted -- male or female, gay or straight.  If the founding fathers had thought that was some infringement of people's rights, they'd have put it in the BOR.  They didn't.



Could really say the same about arms. And no, they didn't put it in there because at the time they were happy with the extant institution, and it wasn't in contention or under threat.

Again, I think marriage is one of those unenumerated rights mentioned in the 9th, and SCOTUS first ruled as such in 1888, so not exactly part of the liberal gay marriage agenda. The question on just how far the right extends is open to contention, but that some form of marriage right exists isnt.

Link Posted: 9/2/2015 8:15:11 PM EDT
[#32]
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Quoted:

Name one state that doesn't acknowledge a marriage in another state as legally valid it is between a man and a woman.  Now, if you are doing it for one couple, you have to do it for all of them.

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
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For the first one, they don't generally need to retake the test.  (lawyers excepted, and PE's in California and Flordia due to earthquake and hurricane building codes IIRC)  Medial people don't.  They do need to maintain their first license though.  

It should be, but it is not.  It shouldn't be required for that matter.


So in other words, there is no constitutional protection that requires states that honor some out of state licensee to honor them all?

Please read the dissents I posted and then go and read Robert's dissent.  

Obergefell v. Hodges.


Name one state that doesn't acknowledge a marriage in another state as legally valid it is between a man and a woman.  Now, if you are doing it for one couple, you have to do it for all of them.

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


And yet neither the men who wrote that, nor anyone interpreting the Constitution until recently ever construed that to mean that acknowledgement of homosex "marriage" by the States was mandated.

You want to know why?


I'll tell you ....



...BECAUSE IT DOESN'T DO THAT!
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 8:21:58 PM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:
Why do we need a license to get married again? Someone please remind me.
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May I take a shot?

Like it or not, our culture comes from Britain originally, and is strongly influenced by Europe.  In Europe, up through medieval times, marriage was basically an upper-class thing - no one really cared which serf was bunking with which serf, although long-term monogamous relationships were still the norm even there.

However, if you had property, or titles, or both, then marriage is a big deal and has to be officially sanctioned and recorded, to determine who inherits the land and the titles.  You basically had to get permission to marry from the secular power, which surprisingly was often the Church, or someone acting for a sovereign who ruled by "divine right", who was approved by said Church.

So weddings, (and births, and christenings, and deaths) were recorded at the Church.  As we move forward into our more enlightened times, that record-keeping and "permission" function was filled by the secular authority.

Link Posted: 9/2/2015 8:25:21 PM EDT
[#34]
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Quoted:
It really is the best part of it for me....  

Although Democrat in those parts means entirely different things vs the socialists in office using it now.   It's a safe bet she didn't vote for Obama, either time.


Not that I endorse what she is doing, but having lived in Morehead for 4 years once upon a time, I can see why the chances of ousting her are slim, at least in the immediate future.  They will attempt to register all the college students to vote, but that will take a while.  Registering the college to vote is how Morehead became wet.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
This is the funny part, Wait for it............Kim Davis Is A Democrat.

Liberal Homo's heads explode -- divide by zero error .....

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CN7bvS-VAAArlGU.png:large
It really is the best part of it for me....  

Although Democrat in those parts means entirely different things vs the socialists in office using it now.   It's a safe bet she didn't vote for Obama, either time.


Not that I endorse what she is doing, but having lived in Morehead for 4 years once upon a time, I can see why the chances of ousting her are slim, at least in the immediate future.  They will attempt to register all the college students to vote, but that will take a while.  Registering the college to vote is how Morehead became wet.



Que?

Link Posted: 9/2/2015 8:27:27 PM EDT
[#35]
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Quoted:


Could really say the same about arms. And no, they didn't put it in there because at the time they were happy with the extant institution, and it wasn't in contention or under threat.

Again, I think marriage is one of those unenumerated rights mentioned in the 9th, and SCOTUS first ruled as such in 1888, so not exactly part of the liberal gay marriage agenda. The question on just how far the right extends is open to contention, but that some form of marriage right exists isnt.

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Quoted:

That's your end state though.  You're trying to find a right to be able to marry anybody you want, which the founding fathers would have laughed at -- primarily because nobody had a right to get married to anybody they wanted then or throughout most of recorded history.



No it isn't. This particular discussion is what's known as a 'tangent', and covers the area of whether or not marriage in general is included under unenumerated rights. My response is a thought experiment as to how the framers would have responded to british interference, and I have to say I think it would have been explicitly included in the BOR somehow. The question of whether or not that right extends to covering gay marriage specifically is a separate argument, and one difficult to reach without stacking rulings precipitously.


Again, throughout essentially all of recorded history, no one had a right to marry anyone they wanted -- male or female, gay or straight.  If the founding fathers had thought that was some infringement of people's rights, they'd have put it in the BOR.  They didn't.



Could really say the same about arms. And no, they didn't put it in there because at the time they were happy with the extant institution, and it wasn't in contention or under threat.

Again, I think marriage is one of those unenumerated rights mentioned in the 9th, and SCOTUS first ruled as such in 1888, so not exactly part of the liberal gay marriage agenda. The question on just how far the right extends is open to contention, but that some form of marriage right exists isnt.




It most certainly is. One doesn't need a permit to exercise a right.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 8:29:14 PM EDT
[#36]
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yeah standing up for abominations and detestable actions and behaviour. way to go america, you are worse than sodom.
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Nonsense!

Link Posted: 9/2/2015 9:25:44 PM EDT
[#37]
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Quoted:
Name one state that doesn't acknowledge a marriage in another state as legally valid it is between a man and a woman.
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Name one state that doesn't acknowledge a marriage in another state as legally valid it is between a man and a woman.


Uh huh.   Thank you for ignoring my point completely.    

Well if states must honor all certificates and licenses from other states then surely they must honor my Concealed Handgun Permit from Virginia, right?

I cannot lawfully carry a firearm in D.C., New York, or California using my VA CHP.    Why is this?  

I suppose CPAs can celebrate as they can now work in any state of the union without need to mess around with messy state laws on certification and reciprocity, right?  



 
Quoted:Now, if you are doing it for one couple, you have to do it for all of them.


Really?   So New York is required to honor my CHP issued from the commonwealth of Virginia?   Interesting.   I did not know that.   Please go on and tell me more...  

Quoted:Amendment XIV
Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


That phrase does not mean what you appear to think it means.    

Oh, and I have news for you:   the SCOTUS, at least not the current makeup of the Robert's court, will NEVER require New York, DC, California or any other state to recognize a CHP from any other state.

Link Posted: 9/2/2015 9:28:56 PM EDT
[#38]
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The gnashing of teeth would be strong with ARFcom if the below [parody] "exercise in religious freedom" actually happened in Dearborn, MI.
http://s4.postimg.org/f0okup2vx/H7_KVvd_Z.jpg
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You don't need a parody.   There are people all around the country who are denied their constituional right to carry and in some cases own a firearm due to all sorts of silly arbitrary and capricious reasons.  

Of course we will not be getting any help from SCOTUS on that issue anytime soon.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 10:28:32 PM EDT
[#39]
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It's about damn time someone told these jackasses to go fuck themselves.

Anthony Kennedy made his ruling, now let him enforce it!
They have people for that   http://timothyolyphant.siterubix.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/raylan-badge.jpg



Celebrities gonna enforce that shit?
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 10:29:54 PM EDT
[#40]
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Please point out where in the Bill of Rights you are guaranteed the "right to Marry".


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So if the sheriff decided not to issue carry permits because of his strong personal belief, you're okay with that?

Please point out where in the Bill of Rights you are guaranteed the "right to Marry".




BOOM! HEAD SHOT!!!
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 10:38:58 PM EDT
[#41]
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I'm not really fully onboard with Thomas' focus on merely ensuring non interference, as there are parts if the Constitution dealing with equal application of due process in other government legal acts, documents, and such.
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I'm not really fully onboard with Thomas' focus on merely ensuring non interference, as there are parts if the Constitution dealing with equal application of due process in other government legal acts, documents, and such.


Thomas was speaking about the Due Process clause with regards to noninterference and I find his argument compelling.   Basically the majority ruled that same-sex couples are suffering injustice due to lack of government created and taxpayer funded benefits.  

The majority opinion in Obergefell v. Hodges relied heavily upon the Due Process Clause and Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment.


  ...

III
Under the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth
Amendment, no State shall “deprive any person of life,
liberty, or property, without due process of law.” The
fundamental liberties protected by this Clause include
most of the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights.

...

Applying these established tenets, the Court has long
held the right to marry is protected by the Constitution.
In Loving v. Virginia, 388 U. S. 1, 12 (1967), which invalidated
bans on interracial unions, a unanimous Court held
marriage is “one of the vital personal rights essential to
the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.”

...

These considerations lead to the conclusion that the
right to marry is a fundamental right inherent in the
liberty of the person, and under the Due Process and
Equal Protection Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment

...



Quoted:And it is part of the 'dissent' for a reason. Like it or not, the government can't be arbitrary in how it deals with issuing all the various things it does issue. The question at hand is what exactly falls under being "arbitrary" or not.  


Yes and that reason is simple:   Kennedy, Kagan, Sotomayor, Breyer, and Ginsburg put their own political beliefs ahead of the United States Constitution.

This opinion is absolutely terrible in its legal reasoning.   I understand why people are personally happy at the outcome but they shouldn't be happy; they should be ****ing livid.    


Majority Opinion - Kennedy:

...

The nature of injustice is that we may not always see it
in our own times. The generations that wrote and ratified
the Bill of Rights and the Fourteenth Amendment did not
presume to know the extent of freedom in all of its dimensions,
and so they entrusted to future generations a charter
protecting the right of all persons to enjoy liberty as we
learn its meaning. When new insight reveals discord
between the Constitution’s central protections and a received
legal stricture, a claim to liberty must be addressed.
 

....

This dynamic also applies to same-sex marriage. It is
now clear that the challenged laws burden the liberty of
same-sex couples, and it must be further acknowledged
that they abridge central precepts of equality. Here the
marriage laws enforced by the respondents are in essence
unequal: same-sex couples are denied all the benefits
afforded to opposite-sex couples and are barred from exercising
a fundamental right. Especially against a long
history of disapproval of their relationships, this denial to
same-sex couples of the right to marry works a grave and
continuing harm. The imposition of this disability on gays
and lesbians serves to disrespect and subordinate them.
And the Equal Protection Clause, like the Due Process
Clause, prohibits this unjustified infringement of the
fundamental right to marry. See, e.g., Zablocki, supra, at
383–388; Skinner, 316 U. S., at 541.
These considerations lead to the conclusion that the
right to marry is a fundamental right inherent in the
liberty of the person, and under the Due Process and
Equal Protection Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment
couples of the same-sex may not be deprived of that right
and that liberty. The Court now holds that same-sex
couples may exercise the fundamental right to marry. No
longer may this liberty be denied to them. Baker v. Nelson
must be and now is overruled, and the State laws challenged
by Petitioners in these cases are now held invalid
to the extent they exclude same-sex couples from civil
marriage on the same terms and conditions as oppositesex
couples.

...

Of course, the Constitution contemplates that democracy
is the appropriate process for change,
so long as that
process does not abridge fundamental rights.
Last Term,
a plurality of this Court reaffirmed the importance of the
democratic principle in Schuette v. BAMN, 572 U. S. ___
(2014), noting the “right of citizens to debate so they can
learn and decide and then, through the political process,
act in concert to try to shape the course of their own
times.” Id., at ___ – ___ (slip op., at 15–16). Indeed, it is
most often through democracy that liberty is preserved
and protected in our lives. But as Schuette also said,
“[t]he freedom secured by the Constitution consists, in one
of its essential dimensions, of the right of the individual
not to be injured by the unlawful exercise of governmental
power.” Id., at ___ (slip op., at 15). Thus, when the rights
of persons are violated, “the Constitution requires redress
by the courts,” notwithstanding the more general value of
democratic decisionmaking. Id., at ___ (slip op., at 17).
This holds true even when protecting individual rights
affects issues of the utmost importance and sensitivity.
The dynamic of our constitutional system is that individuals
need not await legislative action before asserting a
fundamental right. The Nation’s courts are open to injured
individuals who come to them to vindicate their own
direct, personal stake in our basic charter. An individual
can invoke a right to constitutional protection when he or
she is harmed, even if the broader public disagrees and
even if the legislature refuses to act. The idea of the
Constitution “was to withdraw certain subjects from the
vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond
the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them
as legal principles to be applied by the courts.” West Virginia
Bd. of Ed. v. Barnette, 319 U. S. 624, 638 (1943).
This is why “fundamental rights may not be submitted to
a vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections.” Ibid


....

No union is more profound than marriage, for it embodies
the highest ideals of love, fidelity, devotion, sacrifice,
and family. In forming a marital union, two people become
something greater than once they were. As some of
the petitioners in these cases demonstrate, marriage
embodies a love that may endure even past death. It
would misunderstand these men and women to say they
disrespect the idea of marriage. Their plea is that they do
respect it, respect it so deeply that they seek to find its
fulfillment for themselves. Their hope is not to be condemned
to live in loneliness, excluded from one of civilization’s
oldest institutions. They ask for equal dignity in the
eyes of the law. The Constitution grants them that right.
The judgment of the Court of Appeals for the Sixth
Circuit is reversed.


We now have a fundamental right to taxpayer money!  

This country has dealt with outdated ideas before in our Constitution.

I would remind you that the great injustice of slavery did not end with the Emancipation Proclamation or the end of the Civil War.   It took the 13th Amendment to end slavery.

For crying out loud we as a people amended the Constitution no fewer than 5 times to expand the rights of suffrage in this country.

Five ***-holes in black robes just said they have the power to slice and dice all the perceived inequity from our Constitution with out having to bother with Constitutional amendments.

Forget same-sex couples for a moment and think on the long lasting repercussions of such an argument.  


Quoted:I think Loving v. VA was probably a stronger and more explicit case, while this one may be a little too tenous for my liking. I would have much rather gone a legislative route, given the changing opinions. It wouldnt have taken that long, plus it would have been less contentious.


Tenuous?   This entire case is "It's unconstitutional because it makes be feel bad."   Do you have any idea how horrific that is to our country?

To say the majority opinion in Obergefell v. Hodges is pure nonsense and incredibly dangerous would be to put it mildly.   Were it not for the issue of same-sex-marriage, had such an opinion been rendered upon another unrelated matter, it may well have generated ridicule, anger, and contempt rather than what we see now.
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 11:14:48 PM EDT
[#42]

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Quoted:


Why do we need a license to get married again? Someone please remind me.
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A marriage requires recognition from the state.  Since marriage is a union between two parties, how else would it be recognized?  

 
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 11:29:30 PM EDT
[#43]
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Quoted:

It most certainly is. One doesn't need a permit to exercise a right.
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Even in Texas you need a CCL and NFA paperwork. It comes down to if you regard rights as something governments were established to protect, or rights as something granted by the government. Even then, there's plenty of history of various rights being infringed or not recognized.

Excluding everything else, your argument seems to be perilously close to "the only rights that exist are those granted by the government".
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 11:43:47 PM EDT
[#44]
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Quoted:


Celebrities gonna enforce that shit?
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Quoted:
It's about damn time someone told these jackasses to go fuck themselves.

Anthony Kennedy made his ruling, now let him enforce it!
They have people for that   http://timothyolyphant.siterubix.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/raylan-badge.jpg



Celebrities gonna enforce that shit?

US Marshals
Link Posted: 9/2/2015 11:59:18 PM EDT
[#45]
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Quoted:


Could really say the same about arms. And no, they didn't put it in there because at the time they were happy with the extant institution, and it wasn't in contention or under threat.

Again, I think marriage is one of those unenumerated rights mentioned in the 9th, and SCOTUS first ruled as such in 1888, so not exactly part of the liberal gay marriage agenda. The question on just how far the right extends is open to contention, but that some form of marriage right exists isnt.

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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

That's your end state though.  You're trying to find a right to be able to marry anybody you want, which the founding fathers would have laughed at -- primarily because nobody had a right to get married to anybody they wanted then or throughout most of recorded history.



No it isn't. This particular discussion is what's known as a 'tangent', and covers the area of whether or not marriage in general is included under unenumerated rights. My response is a thought experiment as to how the framers would have responded to british interference, and I have to say I think it would have been explicitly included in the BOR somehow. The question of whether or not that right extends to covering gay marriage specifically is a separate argument, and one difficult to reach without stacking rulings precipitously.


Again, throughout essentially all of recorded history, no one had a right to marry anyone they wanted -- male or female, gay or straight.  If the founding fathers had thought that was some infringement of people's rights, they'd have put it in the BOR.  They didn't.



Could really say the same about arms. And no, they didn't put it in there because at the time they were happy with the extant institution, and it wasn't in contention or under threat.

Again, I think marriage is one of those unenumerated rights mentioned in the 9th, and SCOTUS first ruled as such in 1888, so not exactly part of the liberal gay marriage agenda. The question on just how far the right extends is open to contention, but that some form of marriage right exists isnt.



Well yes, since you mentioned that, allow me to quote from Maynard:


Marriage, as creating the most important relation in life, as having more to do with the morals and civilization of a people than any other institution, has always been subject to the control of the legislature. That body prescribes the age at which parties may contract to marry, the procedure or form essential to constitute marriage, the duties and obligations it creates, its effects upon the property rights of both, present and prospective, and the acts which may constitute grounds for its dissolution.


Note what it says there?  "subject to the control of the legislature".  Which we were doing just fine until SCOTUS stepped in and made some cool rights that aren't in the Constitution up.

Also note that nowhere in Maynard, does it say that marriage is a right, nor does it reference the 9th amendment.  That's the only marriage case I can find from 1888, it was really a divorce/property rights case.  Interestingly enough, that decision should be precedent to invalidate USFSPA though that will never happen.

Also, the ninth amendment articulates no rights whatsoever -- it simply says that the BOR is not necessarily an exhaustive list, which should surprise no one.  


And as you say -- they were happy with the extant institution, which did not guarantee anyone any right to marry, and certainly did not allow for gay marriage.
Link Posted: 9/3/2015 12:39:20 AM EDT
[#46]
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Quoted:

Well yes, since you mentioned that, allow me to quote from Maynard:



Note what it says there?  "subject to the control of the legislature".  Which we were doing just fine until SCOTUS stepped in and made some cool rights that aren't in the Constitution up.

Also note that nowhere in Maynard, does it say that marriage is a right, nor does it reference the 9th amendment.  That's the only marriage case I can find from 1888, it was really a divorce/property rights case.  Interestingly enough, that decision should be precedent to invalidate USFSPA though that will never happen.

Also, the ninth amendment articulates no rights whatsoever -- it simply says that the BOR is not necessarily an exhaustive list, which should surprise no one.  


And as you say -- they were happy with the extant institution, which did not guarantee anyone any right to marry, and certainly did not allow for gay marriage.
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Quoted:

Well yes, since you mentioned that, allow me to quote from Maynard:


Marriage, as creating the most important relation in life, as having more to do with the morals and civilization of a people than any other institution, has always been subject to the control of the legislature. That body prescribes the age at which parties may contract to marry, the procedure or form essential to constitute marriage, the duties and obligations it creates, its effects upon the property rights of both, present and prospective, and the acts which may constitute grounds for its dissolution.


Note what it says there?  "subject to the control of the legislature".  Which we were doing just fine until SCOTUS stepped in and made some cool rights that aren't in the Constitution up.

Also note that nowhere in Maynard, does it say that marriage is a right, nor does it reference the 9th amendment.  That's the only marriage case I can find from 1888, it was really a divorce/property rights case.  Interestingly enough, that decision should be precedent to invalidate USFSPA though that will never happen.

Also, the ninth amendment articulates no rights whatsoever -- it simply says that the BOR is not necessarily an exhaustive list, which should surprise no one.  


And as you say -- they were happy with the extant institution, which did not guarantee anyone any right to marry, and certainly did not allow for gay marriage.


That first sentence you quoted contains a clue. and of course it's generally subject to the legislature, like most things-as long as they meet constitutional requirements such as the 14th amendment. And you'll see a list of following cases containing ever more explicit language recognizing the fact that a right of some sense existed wrt, even if the bounds hadn't been fully fleshed out completely.

The 9th is really more procedural, as a guide to interpretation of the BOR and a reminder that rights not enumerated do exist and can be protected, as you acknowledge
Link Posted: 9/3/2015 12:46:53 AM EDT
[#47]
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Quoted:


That first sentence you quoted contains a clue. and of course it's generally subject to the legislature, like most things-as long as they meet constitutional requirements such as the 14th amendment. And you'll see a list of following cases containing ever more explicit language recognizing the fact that a right of some sense existed wrt, even if the bounds hadn't been fully fleshed out completely.

The 9th is really more procedural, as a guide to interpretation of the BOR and a reminder that rights not enumerated do exist and can be protected, as you acknowledge
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Quoted:
Quoted:

Well yes, since you mentioned that, allow me to quote from Maynard:


Marriage, as creating the most important relation in life, as having more to do with the morals and civilization of a people than any other institution, has always been subject to the control of the legislature. That body prescribes the age at which parties may contract to marry, the procedure or form essential to constitute marriage, the duties and obligations it creates, its effects upon the property rights of both, present and prospective, and the acts which may constitute grounds for its dissolution.


Note what it says there?  "subject to the control of the legislature".  Which we were doing just fine until SCOTUS stepped in and made some cool rights that aren't in the Constitution up.

Also note that nowhere in Maynard, does it say that marriage is a right, nor does it reference the 9th amendment.  That's the only marriage case I can find from 1888, it was really a divorce/property rights case.  Interestingly enough, that decision should be precedent to invalidate USFSPA though that will never happen.

Also, the ninth amendment articulates no rights whatsoever -- it simply says that the BOR is not necessarily an exhaustive list, which should surprise no one.  


And as you say -- they were happy with the extant institution, which did not guarantee anyone any right to marry, and certainly did not allow for gay marriage.


That first sentence you quoted contains a clue. and of course it's generally subject to the legislature, like most things-as long as they meet constitutional requirements such as the 14th amendment. And you'll see a list of following cases containing ever more explicit language recognizing the fact that a right of some sense existed wrt, even if the bounds hadn't been fully fleshed out completely.

The 9th is really more procedural, as a guide to interpretation of the BOR and a reminder that rights not enumerated do exist and can be protected, as you acknowledge


None of that statement means you get to marry whoever you want to.  Claiming that court decision says anything even beginning to relate to making marriage a Constitutionally protected right is simply false, especially when read in the context of the fact it's a divorce case, not a "do you have a right to get married" case.

"creating an important relationship in life" in 1888 most certainly had nothing to do with gay marriage either.

That's why all of this is absurd, as I think it was Thomas said -- these rights SCOTUS makes up every couple of years don't exist.  They're judicial fiat, an unelected body of harvard and yale educated lawyers deciding to completely replace the entire legislative procedure of every state with their opinion, based in nothing.

Link Posted: 9/3/2015 12:57:18 AM EDT
[#48]
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Quoted:
None of that statement means you get to marry whoever you want to.  Claiming that court decision says anything even beginning to relate to making marriage a Constitutionally protected right is simply false, especially when read in the context of the fact it's a divorce case, not a "do you have a right to get married" case.

"creating an important relationship in life" in 1888 most certainly had nothing to do with gay marriage either.

That's why all of this is absurd, as I think it was Thomas said -- these rights SCOTUS makes up every couple of years don't exist.  They're judicial fiat, an unelected body of harvard and yale educated lawyers deciding to completely replace the entire legislative procedure of every state with their opinion, based in nothing.

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Quoted:
None of that statement means you get to marry whoever you want to.  Claiming that court decision says anything even beginning to relate to making marriage a Constitutionally protected right is simply false, especially when read in the context of the fact it's a divorce case, not a "do you have a right to get married" case.

"creating an important relationship in life" in 1888 most certainly had nothing to do with gay marriage either.

That's why all of this is absurd, as I think it was Thomas said -- these rights SCOTUS makes up every couple of years don't exist.  They're judicial fiat, an unelected body of harvard and yale educated lawyers deciding to completely replace the entire legislative procedure of every state with their opinion, based in nothing.



Yup.    Un-elected busy bodies who know best how to manage and govern the lives of hundreds of millions.

What I love most is the hypocrisy.

We have a court that will bend over backwards to create "liberties" (read restrictions upon the states) that did not exist before while they bend us over forwards denying our right to keep and bear arms to say nothing of the other rights they have systematically neutered.

Of course that's ok because the second amendment is some vestigial leftover from an arcane civilization that, if we cannot remove from the Constituion by amendment, we will make sure it goes away through judicial decree.

Scalia summed it up nicely:

With each decision of ours that takes from the People a question
properly left to them—with each decision that is unabashedly
based not on law, but on the “reasoned judgment” of a
bare majority of this Court—we move one step closer to
being reminded of our impotence.


Obergefell v. Hodges.
Link Posted: 9/3/2015 12:57:52 AM EDT
[#49]

The Fourth and Tenth Circuits used Loving along with other cases like Zablocki v. Redhail and Turner v. Safley to demonstrate that the U.S. Supreme Court has recognized a "fundamental right to marry" that a state can not restrict unless it meets the court's "heightened scrutiny" standard. Using that standard, both courts struck down state bans on same-sex marriage.
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Chief Justice Earl Warren's opinion for the unanimous court held that:
Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia#For_same-sex_marriage

It was decided that even prisoners have a fundamental right to be married. It's really not up for question.
Link Posted: 9/3/2015 12:59:45 AM EDT
[#50]
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Quoted:


None of that statement means you get to marry whoever you want to.  Claiming that court decision says anything even beginning to relate to making marriage a Constitutionally protected right is simply false, especially when read in the context of the fact it's a divorce case, not a "do you have a right to get married" case.

"creating an important relationship in life" in 1888 most certainly had nothing to do with gay marriage either.

That's why all of this is absurd, as I think it was Thomas said -- these rights SCOTUS makes up every couple of years don't exist.  They're judicial fiat, an unelected body of harvard and yale educated lawyers deciding to completely replace the entire legislative procedure of every state with their opinion, based in nothing.

View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Well yes, since you mentioned that, allow me to quote from Maynard:


Marriage, as creating the most important relation in life, as having more to do with the morals and civilization of a people than any other institution, has always been subject to the control of the legislature. That body prescribes the age at which parties may contract to marry, the procedure or form essential to constitute marriage, the duties and obligations it creates, its effects upon the property rights of both, present and prospective, and the acts which may constitute grounds for its dissolution.


Note what it says there?  "subject to the control of the legislature".  Which we were doing just fine until SCOTUS stepped in and made some cool rights that aren't in the Constitution up.

Also note that nowhere in Maynard, does it say that marriage is a right, nor does it reference the 9th amendment.  That's the only marriage case I can find from 1888, it was really a divorce/property rights case.  Interestingly enough, that decision should be precedent to invalidate USFSPA though that will never happen.

Also, the ninth amendment articulates no rights whatsoever -- it simply says that the BOR is not necessarily an exhaustive list, which should surprise no one.  


And as you say -- they were happy with the extant institution, which did not guarantee anyone any right to marry, and certainly did not allow for gay marriage.


That first sentence you quoted contains a clue. and of course it's generally subject to the legislature, like most things-as long as they meet constitutional requirements such as the 14th amendment. And you'll see a list of following cases containing ever more explicit language recognizing the fact that a right of some sense existed wrt, even if the bounds hadn't been fully fleshed out completely.

The 9th is really more procedural, as a guide to interpretation of the BOR and a reminder that rights not enumerated do exist and can be protected, as you acknowledge


None of that statement means you get to marry whoever you want to.  Claiming that court decision says anything even beginning to relate to making marriage a Constitutionally protected right is simply false, especially when read in the context of the fact it's a divorce case, not a "do you have a right to get married" case.

"creating an important relationship in life" in 1888 most certainly had nothing to do with gay marriage either.

That's why all of this is absurd, as I think it was Thomas said -- these rights SCOTUS makes up every couple of years don't exist.  They're judicial fiat, an unelected body of harvard and yale educated lawyers deciding to completely replace the entire legislative procedure of every state with their opinion, based in nothing.



I've never claimed you get to marry whomever you want-merely that there's consistent case law predating this court, recognizing that some basic unenumerated right to it existed. And rights can be circumscribed, provided the entity wishing to circumscribe meets whatever standard of scrutiny; a standard the states were unable to meet.
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