This. Especially when certain members within those divisions have abused that privilege at the sake of the other members.


If people cannot be trusted and have abused the tools you've given them to be productive against the rest of the team - then they don't deserve those special privileges.


I think plenty of the site membership is sick of the "elitism" of certain group members here (not ALL, SOME).


If the forums in question cannot (and obviously will not) be abolished, then the users in those groups who cause (and freely partake in or contribute to) such issues should be permanently barred from that group and have those privileges removed. IOW - sow divisiveness between your special group and the general membership, and you lose your access to that special group.

This. His Always leather up video was fantastic.

10-4

Thanks for the info.

Very well *handshake*

 

Not really needing war stories



Guess I'm just a bit to hung up on the negatives

Which really are not my problem anyway

I don't understand your point. Are you calling for no moderation of any sort, or?

Just to play devil's  advocate in this situation:


Would madcap feel a kinship to talk about that instance  with a peace time airman in a motor pool for 4 years or a civilian emt that has seen and dealt with death for 20 years?

Which one is in the secret forum?

Oh, and while we're at it - and I see it's been discussed by other members in this thread, many users are OVER punished for little offenses, while others (again, clearly members of "special" groups) get away with the same nonsense.

Could Site Staff and Admin hash that one out? Because every time I've been locked it's been for way too long over something way too small, and every time I've emailed staff about it the response to me is pretty much a FOAD, no-discussion attitude.

Do you work for the NSA?

Sorry, you had already corrected yourself when I posted that but going through the thread replying as I go I missed it.

No shit, would rather talk to someone who was in the military.  I've hung out with plenty of dudes that have had similar experiences civilian side, and while the end result is the same, the camaraderie isn't there at all.


 

Then again, life isn't always a false dilemma.

 
Guilty as charged. I have had a problem minding the rules here, and some posters along the way, so there ya go.


Some people are just awesome rule followers. Tell them to stand in the corner with their dick in their hand, they'll do it and feel comforted to have directions. They drive 25 in a 25, 100% of the time, even when it's miles from anywhere and no one's around.


Other people push boundaries. They're not bad people, but don't like being treated like children...and sometimes too many rules is just too much like that teacher that told you to write about anything you want, except make it clean and about Spain and don't mention sex or guns.


Some people are just disruptive pricks who will trash a library because fuck books.


And sue me, man, but the world needs all of those people - and it needs them all in the same forum. You don't agree, cause I think you're much closer to 25 in a 25 guy, and those guys never admit that progress depends on the unreasonable person, but damnit the idea of a civil GD, all sitting around respecting each other's viewpoints on religion and abortion is a revolting idea.


That's not to say I'm the disruptive prick, either, I don't steal or hurt people or mess with the site. I've been a member of probably 100 forums in my life....going back decades to BBS systems; dog sites, motorcycle forums, other gun forums, music sites...christ the list is just crazy long when I think about it. Wanna know how many warnings or locks I've gotten from any or all of them?


Fucking. Zero. Not one. Not a suspension, not a sternly worded email. Nothing. Hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of posts, no problems at all.


Now, did I save up all the worst in my persona for this place, or does it have a goofy, ill-conceived and poorly executed CoC for a general discussion portion of a very political and socially minded forum? Well, make up your own mind (I'm sure you already have).

 
It's funny, you seldom if ever understand my point. Perhaps we're long lost twins, like the Corsican brothers of completely polar mindsets.

Whatever I think is good, you think is bad.



I'll answer your question, tho. When I was a moderator of Harmony Central (at the time larger than ARFcom, probably still is), I don't think I had to lock or ban but a dozen or so people in years and years of moderating from actual rule breaking.






There were rules, but they were few and common sense (no porn, no disruptive scripts or messing with the site, no spam). That's was all we had, and the GD section of that site got along just fine.






Guys who were some of the funnest, most helpful and decent folks on that site regularly did and said things that would have you banned here in a fucking millisecond. But, with big boy rules, the forum just hummed along. If you were a thin-skinned pussy, it was probably hell, but it self-policed pretty damned well. Yes, people fought, and called each other names, and well...just like here, only they didn't have to dance around semantics, or pretend to be nice while slamming each other, or worry that a joke was offensive or that one group was special.






Now, it was a more diverse and wider forum than this - literally the only commonality was music - this place is MUCH more monolithic, yet it functioned. That's not uncommon, I can name other forums that work much the same.






Then, there are forums who have a lot of rules, but the tone of the forum is more specific and they don't even bother with anything goes GD sub forums. And, those generally work pretty well and require very little moderation.






This place needs a fucking crew of always present mods who do rug-sweeping and warnings and locks like it's an industry.






I've told this example before, and been assured by mods and staff that I'm just all wrong, but here we are again with self-made issue talking about it all, while other forums hum along without the 10 commandments. You need rules, what you don't need are 27 rules about touching in the thunderdome, or the thunderdome is a suck fest and you're spending all your time telling MasterBlaster to watch his hands.




 

That's as clear as I can make it.

Hypothetically speaking, if that 'peacetime airman' came into a thread like that and starting being ignorant, we'd educate him. Most of GD doesn't give the impression that they welcome education in general or education on subjects they are specifically ignorant in.

How many posts can you find in GD where a someone is not fulfilling one or more of the below criteria?

I'm still trying to figure out what to do with the four billion gifs and pictures I've accumulated to tease people who post gibberish and nonsense.

No worries.

 

The .milbro forum was used inappropriately for stuff like the negatives you mentioned in the past, but that's all been locked down and self policed because the positives of the forum are worth too much to risk at this point.  

A million times this!  I couldn't even imagine trying to talk about that kind of stuff in public on Arf.  You can guaran-damn-tee that it'd turn into some kind of epic fucking shitshow and it'd not even stay in the thread.  It'd pop up elsewhere, and you could never put it back on the box.

Personal information gets shared, and it'd be highly regretted in short order were it public on this site.  I don't really participate in either forum much (besides lurking), and I wish I would, but the fear of getting Arocked and losing my job is high.  The folks there are great to date, but one rogue asshole could do a lot of damage if they tried hard enough.  So far, I see both forums as being highly helpful to some though.  I hope it stays that way.

Only rules violations in there now are the dick pics. So many dick pics...

Serious question, I am not trying to be an ass...



Why do you stay? I have never had a problem with you, so I am not suggesting you leave, however if you find the CoC so bad why stay?



Or if you think it is none of my business, and it really isn't, then ignore this post.



 

I'm with you on that.  There's definitely a certain amount of "hazing" , for lack of a better term, that a member of this forum ought to be able to put up with.  Hey, it's Arfcom, not the Beanie-Babies sewing circle...and that's part of the appeal.  Some people need to get a thicker skin and just let a few jabs roll off.  Giving and taking shit good-naturedly can form bonds of camaraderie and tolerance.  
Those that can't take it?  Well, there are other forums out there that are perhaps more well-suited to their delicate sensibilities.  Amazingly, just a few choice pokes can usually separate the former from the latter.  

I hope that, at the end of the day, this site doesn't try to be all things to all people, because that just doesn't work.  Something has to keep the DU trolls in check.  

That being said, I've never found it that hard to tell the difference in threads where someone was getting hassled a little vs. out-and-out hatred and abuse.  It's pretty obvious.  
Me, I try to go out of my way to welcome new members and answer their questions or direct them to appropriate threads for in-depth information.  VA_GunNut even started a thread just for them.  
However,it's also pretty obvious when someone "new" shows up with nothing more than the intention of looking for a fight.  Well, there are plenty here that consider that "Challenge, Accepted".  

The biggest thing I've noticed in my short time here are all of the shit-stirring threads in the last year that seem to pop up like flies at a picnic after the latest internal crisis/outrage/butthurt/ of the month.  
It's not enough that they're upset, they've got to try and get everyone else up in arms as well.  When in truth, that one little area of discontent on the site is merely a blip on the radar in the overall scheme of things. I don't recall seeing it like this in 2013 and 2014, but this year it seems to be the new theme.  Maybe it's always been like that and I just never noticed it before.  But that still begs the question, why not take it straight to the mods or the site staff in IM and try to work it out that way, first?  Then, if nothing changes, you can always air it out to the masses AFTER things have had a chance to cool down.  Mods can't be everywhere 24/7.  Give them a chance to do their jobs.  

Meanwhile, the rest of Arfcom just merrily flows around the latest squabble, doing it's thing.  Cleanup in Aisle 87 and I'm clear over at sporting goods neck-bearding more 22LR.  
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that sometimes we can't see the forest through the trees.  There are a helluva lot of good people on this site and it's a helluva good place to be; if one is willing to help it be that.  
Sometimes things happen in our particular "corner" that make us lose sight of that fact.  When that happens, it's best to step back, assess the situation, and get a different perspective...and "Don't Be a Dick".

I always like your posts.

Just thought you might would want to know that.

I can see what you guys are saying.  People can go overboard with union discussions.  On the other hand, most people are probably referring to union leadership and reps, and not your average union member.  It could also refer to the poor mentality that tends to fester in some union environments.  All valid criticism which people can take the wrong way.  



For example-  Saying that an organization which takes people's money, and gives it to organizations which are bringing the country to its knees, is evil (or the enemy) is not an attack.  I think it's a valid opinion.  It isn't meant to cause anger or pain, and it doesn't reflect on the guy minding his own business making a living.  



My point is that every single incidence has to be individually judged by its context.  Even something that looks like a clear case of bashing could end up being a poorly worded post.  





 

If I understand his point (which may or may not be the case) he is essentially caling for a return to the much more lax moderation standards that GD had when it was essentially the Pit and the only rules were things like nothing illegal, no porn, no racial pejoratives, and don't bring family into it.

Kind of like the "new rules" and the ever-evolving tabulation of words and phrases we can't use?

 
It's a valid question, I've pondered it. The easy answer is this is an interesting place and I have so many friends and common interests with people here that don't exist elsewhere in one place that it's hard to walk away. My inbox is full of people who have reached out to me for addiction or counseling issues, I do get a lot out of being here, personally.

True. I'm still here.

I appreciate you taking time to answer. Thanks



 

...and again... Are we worse off for having you (the proverbial shit stirrer himself) here on arfcom?

No.

So does any of this matter? No.

How does subnet "stir" the shit

He often introduces a voice of reason in threads with unreasonable or reactionary posts.

Sirensong tends to do the same. I like them both for that.

If Subnet is a "shit stirrer", then I must have been missing it too.  To my knowledge he isn't.

He doesnt. I may not agree with some of his political views but hes one of the most laid back easy going people on the entire forum.

He said the management style here shows thinly veiled contempt for its users. He thinks that is no way to run a rodeo. A less emotion driven moderating style would be better.

I agree with the last bit, and make no comment of the first.

His carefully structured, reasonable posts are secretly laced full of vitriol and triggers.  Once you realize that you've been masterfully manipulated, it is too late.











 

I'll hit you back someday.

You  mean stuff like this..











 

Im still trying figure out why signal was banned for letting out the fact that there was a certain thread in the private leo forum but another poster did the exact same thing two days later, but is still here and posting. He isn't a mod but he is a leo and yes it was reported. Now to me what they did is no big deal, but rules are rules and you agree to them to a part of the private forum or at least that is what we have been told.

So can somebody please explain the difference?

So are your two posts above examples of the kinder, more polite ARFCOM, where everyone tries to not be pricks to one another?

What is up with everyone here being little bitches about icons? Who cares? Who cares if there are select forums? Were you all picked last in school?

I was in the military, I don't want a tank icon. It isn't worth the two seconds of my time to add that to my profile. Then again, I don't have a Molon Labe sticker on my truck, I don't wear Affliction Tshirts, and I generally only come here to learn things and keep up on the news in the industry. The discourse has been absolutely unbearable lately. We all love firearms, we come here to discuss firearms, the rest of this crap needs to take a back seat.

My interpretation of his post:

The unwritten "Tonk" rule has grown so large that if you go on vacation for a week, you'll miss on the latest updates to the unpublished list; most recently saying "Hammermill Thread" which some people didn't know is now forbidden.

I liked the old mean one.

I agree tha it SHOULD be that way, but it isn't. Not by a long shot.

The uneven moderation of this site has been a long time complaint of mine. In fact, it's why I let my membership drop.

Case in point - there was a thread talking about Mormon history & some of our members called them a cult. One of the mods flipped his lid over it and a senior site staffer started slinging edits and warning. (as he should IMO)

The next day another member starts a thread calling a certain Baptist denomination a cult, so I hit report. Not only was there no edits or warnings from it, the same site staffer who was doing the editing the day before for the same offense chimed in to the conversation.

That is just one example of how uneven the moderation is around here. The site has all the rules it needs to take care of the sites problems. The problem is that the mods all interpret those rule to mean different things, so a comment that one mod let's slide gets you dinged by another.

, Me too, but that seems unlikely.

 
There's a management parable. It goes something like this.


A manager of a huge department is having trouble with discipline. The boss comes and asks what the problem is.


The manager says everyone misbehaves, and he has to keep enacting new rules to keep them in line.


Is this working the boss says? No, the manager replies, they just keep breaking the rules and all I get done is enforce the rules.


Well, says the boss, when you treat people like children they usually act like children.


But, boss, says the manager, how can I treat them like adults when they act like children?


The boss punches the manager in the taco and walks away.


I embellished that last part. Figured it out yet?

Wait.  Is that really verboten?