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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:29:22 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's an inevitable future. Society will either adapt to supporting people from cradle to grave or a lot of people are going to die. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It's an oxymoron because socialism involves involuntary transfer of wealth or income, requires coercion across many aspects of human activity, which requires a class of people that force accross the population. Not seeing how "anarcho" fits that in any way. At any rate, how can people realisticall get by on $15, paricularly as business will seek increasingly cost effective automation in substitution of increasingly overpriced labor? That's an inevitable future. Society will either adapt to supporting people from cradle to grave or a lot of people are going to die. Or you could remove the layers and layers of coercive micromanagement of the natural economy. Such liberty is not as famous for sapping productivity and creatng drones ripe for slaughter as socialist systems have frequently been. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:30:14 PM EDT
[#2]
Unbelievable. When I first started in the oil field only four years ago my wage was $13.75. I got a raise that year to $14.25. I made $72K that year. If you want more money and your wage is shit, work more hours.
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:30:26 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Or you could remove the layers and layers of coercive micromanagement of the natural economy. It's not as famous for sapping productivity and creatng drones ripe for slaughter as socialist systems have frequently turned out. You would end up right back where you started. Those regulations were put in place for a reason. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:30:47 PM EDT
[#4]
Democrats add automation to their national platform.
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:30:58 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Then show me an example of anarcho-socialism in the real world that did not end up in pure anarchy or pure socialism. It is a purely theoretical construct that can not exist in the real world. I eagerly await your response. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So we should assume you'll be voting Democrat this time round? I'd vote for Sanders, Warren, or 3rd party. ETA According to one of the tests thrown around here, I fall into the anarcho-socialist camp. So the fact that minimum wages don't actually do anything for the poor doesn't phase you? BTW, anarcho-socialist is an oxymoron. You will not have socialism without an impressively massive government. The minimum wage in and of itself outside of indexing for cost of living does not do anything, but with respect to cost of living it obviously does have an effect on a persons ability to earn a living wage. The acrossed the board $15 minimum wage federally does fuck all to take into account the cost of living state per state, so say in a low cost area of the South East it would probably a much higher burden upon the employer then somewhere like NYC. I am sure your boot straps are broken off and you have minted your own coins, but for many people the minimum wage amount does determine the wages their employer is willing to pay them. Anarcho-socialism is not the purists version of anarchist political views, but it does not make it an oxymoron it makes it a different version of a political thought. Voting for Warren would be like nailing your dick to a fucking hand railing, worthless. Sanders may not make gun grabbing his first move, but it is on the to do list, so I don't see him regardless of some of his views as a great deal. Then show me an example of anarcho-socialism in the real world that did not end up in pure anarchy or pure socialism. It is a purely theoretical construct that can not exist in the real world. I eagerly await your response. Pure communism has never come to realization in practicality that does not negate it being a real political thought. I eagerly await your response for the need to negate all theories that are not able to be brought to fruition long term in the real world. I hope you would like to burn the bible soon because I don't see half of it actually existing in the real world long term. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:32:33 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Inflation will be held constant for sure because prices certainly don't follow wages. lol It is crazy how politicians don't understand this basic tenet. I guess they think that business owners make so much money that they will just absorb it. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:32:56 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You would end up right back where you started. Those regulations were put in place for a reason. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Or you could remove the layers and layers of coercive micromanagement of the natural economy. It's not as famous for sapping productivity and creatng drones ripe for slaughter as socialist systems have frequently turned out. You would end up right back where you started. Those regulations were put in place for a reason. Generally to concentrate political and economic power in the hands of a few. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:33:11 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unbelievable. When I first started in the oil field only four years ago my wage was $13.75. I got a raise that year to $14.25. I made $72K that year. If you want more money and your wage is shit, work more hours. Then you were a low paid laborer in the oil field, so it sucks to be you. Beyond that fact the minimum wage is being toted as providing a minimum livable wage based upon a 40 hour week. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:33:44 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Generally to concentrate political and economic power in the hands of a few. Often true, masked by a legitimate problem. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:34:06 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The government is a tool that can be used properly or, left to its own devices, it can become a tyrannical menace. To prevent the latter you don't dismantle the government, you watch it like a hawk. The price for liberty is eternal vigilance  Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So the fact that minimum wages don't actually do anything for the poor doesn't phase you? BTW, anarcho-socialist is an oxymoron. You will not have socialism without an impressively massive government. The government is a tool that can be used properly or, left to its own devices, it can become a tyrannical menace. To prevent the latter you don't dismantle the government, you watch it like a hawk. The price for liberty is eternal vigilance We'll do it right, tis time.
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:35:33 PM EDT
[#11]
why hasnt my wage gone up?
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:35:33 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Generally to concentrate political and economic power in the hands of a few. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Or you could remove the layers and layers of coercive micromanagement of the natural economy. It's not as famous for sapping productivity and creatng drones ripe for slaughter as socialist systems have frequently turned out. You would end up right back where you started. Those regulations were put in place for a reason. Generally to concentrate political and economic power in the hands of a few. Or to provide regulation to control facets of industry that were ignoring human need. Should OSHA remove the requirements of tie off above 6 ft? Should the permissible exposure limits for chemical exposure be removed so that we can return to paper mill workers being exposed to ClO2, SO2, etc on a 24/7 basis? Capitalism is a necessary evil for self and national advancement, but that does not negate the fact that pure capitalism ignores human need. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:36:03 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: why hasnt my wage gone up? Robots ... robots with fricken cameras for eyes bro. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:36:29 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Robots ... robots with fricken cameras for eyes bro. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
why hasnt my wage gone up? Robots ... robots with fricken cameras for eyes bro. god damn it |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:36:59 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Then you were a low paid laborer in the oil field, so it sucks to be you. Beyond that fact the minimum wage is being toted as providing a minimum livable wage based upon a 40 hour week. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Unbelievable. When I first started in the oil field only four years ago my wage was $13.75. I got a raise that year to $14.25. I made $72K that year. If you want more money and your wage is shit, work more hours. Then you were a low paid laborer in the oil field, so it sucks to be you. Beyond that fact the minimum wage is being toted as providing a minimum livable wage based upon a 40 hour week. Who cares what it is being tired as? Those jobs aren't meant for people to support a family on. It's not the employers responsibility to provide a livable wage. Their only responsibility is to pay fair market value for a commodity ie labor. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:37:02 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pure communism has never come to realization in practicality that does not negate it being a real political thought. I eagerly await your response for the need to negate all theories that are not able to be brought to fruition long term in the real world. I hope you would like to burn the bible soon because I don't see half of it actually existing in the real world long term. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Then show me an example of anarcho-socialism in the real world that did not end up in pure anarchy or pure socialism. It is a purely theoretical construct that can not exist in the real world. I eagerly await your response. Pure communism has never come to realization in practicality that does not negate it being a real political thought. I eagerly await your response for the need to negate all theories that are not able to be brought to fruition long term in the real world. I hope you would like to burn the bible soon because I don't see half of it actually existing in the real world long term. Oh, I'll take any impure example of anarcho-socialism you care to name as proof that it is anything more than a theoretical construct. Honestly, I'll accept any answer that even remotely fits that description. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:37:59 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: god damn it Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: why hasnt my wage gone up? Robots ... robots with fricken cameras for eyes bro. god damn it The Wendy's sandwich makers are striking on the 31st against the robots if you'd like to join I hear they are going to smash an iPhone and try to find Johnny Five and rough him up a bit for starting this whole mess. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:38:43 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Who cares what it is being tired as? Those jobs aren't meant for people to support a family on. It's not the employers responsibility to provide a livable wage. Their only responsibility is to pay fair market value for a commodity ie labor. Do the people create markets to better themselves or the other way around? |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:38:59 PM EDT
[#19]
And the same people wanting this will be complaining that milk is $8 gallon, bread $6, happy meal at MCD $12
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:39:03 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh, I'll take any impure example of anarcho-socialism you care to name as proof that it is anything more than a theoretical construct. Honestly, I'll accept any answer that even remotely fits that description. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Then show me an example of anarcho-socialism in the real world that did not end up in pure anarchy or pure socialism. It is a purely theoretical construct that can not exist in the real world. I eagerly await your response. Pure communism has never come to realization in practicality that does not negate it being a real political thought. I eagerly await your response for the need to negate all theories that are not able to be brought to fruition long term in the real world. I hope you would like to burn the bible soon because I don't see half of it actually existing in the real world long term. Oh, I'll take any impure example of anarcho-socialism you care to name as proof that it is anything more than a theoretical construct. Honestly, I'll accept any answer that even remotely fits that description. Being a theoretical construct does not negate it being a real thing. Your avatar must be a fucking ironic oxymoron. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:40:23 PM EDT
[#21]
Why do democrats hate senior citizens on fixed incomes?
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:40:32 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They'll eventually get it too. This is why we are losing. They are very specific about what they want; they are united, and they just keep repeating the same thing over and over until they get it. Gun owners need to pay attention. You're right. The fucking democrats always end up getting what they want and with their immigration policies there is no stopping it. With leaders like Bonehead and Mush McConnell, this is a done deal. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:40:34 PM EDT
[#23]
In fact, the entire effect of a minimum wage is to say that some people are not legally employable. If a person's skills or labor is worth $10/hr in a free market, and you set a $15 minimum wage, all you've done is tell employers that they can not legally employ that person because they are not in the habit of paying $15/hr for $10/hr of work.
It's really not complicated. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:41:42 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And the same people wanting this will be complaining that milk is $8 gallon, bread $6, happy meal at MCD $12 So... you know that most reports are saying that the increase to McDonalds wages would result in less than a dollar increase to menu items? Not a like 8 dollar increase.  |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:42:37 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Often true, masked by a legitimate problem. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Generally to concentrate political and economic power in the hands of a few. Often true, masked by a legitimate problem. And that's the cycle humanity needs to break, evolving individual culture to address legitimate issues without invoking a progressively growing and ultimately destructive leviathan. ETA: The trick is, once you negate free will and introduce coercion, you have invoked leviathan |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:42:48 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In fact, the entire effect of a minimum wage is to say that some people are not legally employable. If a person's skills or labor is worth $10/hr in a free market, and you set a $15 minimum wage, all you've done is tell employers that they can not legally employ that person because they are not in the habit of paying $15/hr for $10/hr of work. It's really not complicated. The free market is bullshit, BOOM.  |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:43:32 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're right. The fucking democrats always end up getting what they want and with their immigration policies there is no stopping it. With leaders like Bonehead and Mush McConnell, this is a done deal. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They'll eventually get it too. This is why we are losing. They are very specific about what they want; they are united, and they just keep repeating the same thing over and over until they get it. Gun owners need to pay attention. You're right. The fucking democrats always end up getting what they want and with their immigration policies there is no stopping it. With leaders like Bonehead and Mush McConnell, this is a done deal. I don't see either side except for Trump having a good stand on immigration policies, imho. ETA: Kick them the fuck out, kick their employers to the fucking curb, and pay for the deportation with the employers seized assets. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:43:40 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wish these asshats would realize this, if minimum wage is raised to $15 an hour, your still gonna be a minimum wage worker, you'll still be poor, you still wouldn't be able to afford shit. Raise wages and prices follow, a meal at McDonalds cost about the same as a hour of minimum wage. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:44:10 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Being a theoretical construct does not negate it being a real thing. Your avatar must be a fucking ironic oxymoron. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Then show me an example of anarcho-socialism in the real world that did not end up in pure anarchy or pure socialism. It is a purely theoretical construct that can not exist in the real world. I eagerly await your response. Pure communism has never come to realization in practicality that does not negate it being a real political thought. I eagerly await your response for the need to negate all theories that are not able to be brought to fruition long term in the real world. I hope you would like to burn the bible soon because I don't see half of it actually existing in the real world long term. Oh, I'll take any impure example of anarcho-socialism you care to name as proof that it is anything more than a theoretical construct. Honestly, I'll accept any answer that even remotely fits that description. Being a theoretical construct does not negate it being a real thing. Your avatar must be a fucking ironic oxymoron. If a theoretical construct can not practically exit in the real world, in what sense is it real? If an anarchist system is a stateless society, and socialism is ownership of the means of production by society, which practically means the state, in what way or those two concepts not mutually exclusive? |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:44:26 PM EDT
[#30]
But do they even pay their workers that amount of money?
Only land owners should be allowed to vote. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:44:50 PM EDT
[#31]
Not even sure what this number is supposed to do anyway. If I made $15 an hour and lived entirely on my own I am not sure if I could even afford to live in the hood. So on top of being stupid and it's a stupid arbitrary number.
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:45:39 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And that's the cycle humanity needs to break, evolving individual culture to address legitimate issues without invoking a progressively growing and ultimately destructive leviathan. Human nature and democracy prohibits it. The most realistic path is to control the beast. The same self interest that drives capitalism is what eventually proves its undoing. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:45:42 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But do they even pay their workers that amount of money? Only land owners should be allowed to vote. It would be interesting to see how many workers employed by Clinton, Sanders, etc are paid less than $15 an hour. I bet the number of workers employed by the Democratic party under $15 an hour is fucking staggering. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:47:03 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The free market is bullshit, BOOM.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
In fact, the entire effect of a minimum wage is to say that some people are not legally employable. If a person's skills or labor is worth $10/hr in a free market, and you set a $15 minimum wage, all you've done is tell employers that they can not legally employ that person because they are not in the habit of paying $15/hr for $10/hr of work. It's really not complicated. The free market is bullshit, BOOM.
No, labor and skills have an actual real value. Now, we can argue over what anyone's labor or skill is worth, but the fact that it is worth some definite value is not debatable. If you set the minimum wage above that value then that person is now legally unemployable. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:47:31 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I guess my wage goes up then. Lol...no. But......your taxes definitely will. As the minimum wage goes up, prices will rise. As prices rise, the welfare class will need......ta-da....more welfare. Democrats will then inevitably raise your taxes at the first opportunity. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:48:15 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Human nature and democracy prohibits it. The most realistic path is to control the beast. The same self interest that drives capitalism is what eventually proves its undoing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And that's the cycle humanity needs to break, evolving individual culture to address legitimate issues without invoking a progressively growing and ultimately destructive leviathan. Human nature and democracy prohibits it. The most realistic path is to control the beast. The same self interest that drives capitalism is what eventually proves its undoing. It can not be controlled. It progressivley destroys the economic life it fed on untill there is nothing left. Then it turns on itself. Witness detroit as a light taste |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:48:36 PM EDT
[#37]
This will completely destroy jobs for minorities, and kids out of high school. Robots/machines will completely take over, and crime will massively go up, and welfare will be even more out of control.
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:48:36 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Human nature and democracy prohibits it. The most realistic path is to control the beast. The same self interest that drives capitalism is what eventually proves its undoing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And that's the cycle humanity needs to break, evolving individual culture to address legitimate issues without invoking a progressively growing and ultimately destructive leviathan. Human nature and democracy prohibits it. The most realistic path is to control the beast. The same self interest that drives capitalism is what eventually proves its undoing. Human nature directly encourages it. Name one time that capitalism has actually failed, and don't give me any bullshit chrony capitalism, fascist, or corporatist examples. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:49:38 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Human nature directly encourages it. Name one time that capitalism has actually failed, and don't give me any bullshit chrony capitalism, fascist, or corporatist examples. That's the point I was making. "Pure" capitalism can't exist for the same reason pure "Communism" can't exist. Human nature won't allow it. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:50:15 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes it does. They're a mess right now. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Desperation, this reeks of it. Yes it does. They're a mess right now. And theyll promise as much free shit to the lowest common denominator in order garner as many votes as possible. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:50:46 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This will completely destroy jobs for minorities, and kids out of high school. Robots/machines will completely take over, and crime will massively go up, and welfare will be even more out of control. There is a study about the amount of automation vs. employment and it makes what is happening in plants sort of not a good thing. You have to have a certain amount of jobs regardless of how efficient and wonderful a business can be to support a society of a given size. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:50:55 PM EDT
[#42]
. Bring it! |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:51:37 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's the point I was making. "Pure" capitalism can't exist for the same reason pure "Communism" can't exist. Human nature won't allow it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Human nature directly encourages it. Name one time that capitalism has actually failed, and don't give me any bullshit chrony capitalism, fascist, or corporatist examples. That's the point I was making. "Pure" capitalism can't exist for the same reason pure "Communism" can't exist. Human nature won't allow it. Don't use logic, just accept it. Free market pure capitalism is the fucking win and Glenn Beck should run for president. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:52:24 PM EDT
[#44]
Corporations can afford the $15 an hour raise.
I don't blame individuals for organizing, but I do blame instigators hired by corporations for putting this idea in people's head. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:53:08 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's an inevitable future. Society will either adapt to supporting people from cradle to grave or a lot of people are going to die. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It's an oxymoron because socialism involves involuntary transfer of wealth or income, requires coercion across many aspects of human activity, which requires a class of people that force accross the population. Not seeing how "anarcho" fits that in any way. At any rate, how can people realisticall get by on $15, paricularly as business will seek increasingly cost effective automation in substitution of increasingly overpriced labor? That's an inevitable future. Society will either adapt to supporting people from cradle to grave or a lot of people are going to die. How about supporting self sufficiency instead of reliance? And if we head the direction you're advocating, yes, a lot of people are going to die. Whats the definition of insanity again? |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:53:46 PM EDT
[#46]
More feel good, emotional bullshit. No one can survive and support a family on $15 an hour, all this will achieve is driving businesess with a small profit margin out of business and putting people out of work. But, they know this and don't care.
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:54:58 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Human nature and democracy prohibits it. The most realistic path is to control the beast. The same self interest that drives capitalism is what eventually proves its undoing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And that's the cycle humanity needs to break, evolving individual culture to address legitimate issues without invoking a progressively growing and ultimately destructive leviathan. Human nature and democracy prohibits it. The most realistic path is to control the beast. The same self interest that drives capitalism is what eventually proves its undoing. The only way you control the beast is by limiting what arenas the beast may operate in. That's what we once had but have departed from, with predictable results. Socialism will require a government with very very few limits on it. Vote buying by the political class is essentially built in. Ultimately the government will be run for the benefit of the political class via parceling out the social benefits that are baked into a socialist system. The only way you avoid this is by declaring certain realms off limits. Even with that, your eternal vigilance will be a weak defense, but at least you have some hope. With a socialist system, you'll have government control of every aspect of your life in the limit. In other words, the exact opposite of an anarchist system. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:55:09 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How about supporting self sufficiency instead of reliance? And if we head the direction you're advocating, yes, a lot of people are going to die. Whats the definition of insanity again? Capitalism is driving the automation
Increasing the minimum wage just gets you there faster. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:55:17 PM EDT
[#49]
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:56:31 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In fact, the entire effect of a minimum wage is to say that some people are not legally employable. If a person's skills or labor is worth $10/hr in a free market, and you set a $15 minimum wage, all you've done is tell employers that they can not legally employ that person because they are not in the habit of paying $15/hr for $10/hr of work. It's really not complicated. Actually it will cause a cascade of price increases along every supply chain, even those that don't employ minimum wage employees. Those companies will end up paying higher prices for goods and services meaning price increases for them too. |
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