Well then I'll be sure not to off myself because there's no way I can hang out with that guy forever

To go on, people make their own little world which they populate with things that reassure them about their basic assumptions, even if those assumptions don't have anything to do with reality. Noting, of course, that there are about as many different descriptions of "Heaven" and how to get in there as there are churches, synagogues, mosques, and temples in the world.

If you consider such simple factual statements hostile, then maybe the above applies to you, too.

This thread is a god damned, excellent example of why I joined this forum! This and the trannies!

It seems rather pointless and petty to be rude and insulting to man being polite and sharing his belief, in a thread where a question directly relevant to his beliefs was asked.

I'm with you.  

It's by grace and faith we are saved.  Not by the exit door we take.  



 

Maybe you misunderstood the OPs questions.

Finally, common ground. FSM forever!

"No one should deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age (Or according to the wisdom of the present world), he must become foolish so that he can become wise. For the wisdom of the world is foolishness with God, since it has been written:

'He catches the wise
in their craftiness-----
and again,
The Lord knows
the reasonings of the wise,
and that they are futile.' "

The Word and Testimony of the Apostle Paul to the Corinthians
The New Testament Epistle of 1st Corinthians; 3: 18-20 (DCE)
The Folly of Human Wisdom: The Futility of Man

lol, pot meet kettle

If your beliefs need to be handled with kid gloves take it to the "Protected Ron Paul Thread" Religion Forum.

I agree with this, although I don't think it answers the question.  Certainly, suicide, like any other sin, is not an act of faith in God's promises.  Suicide is sin, make no mistake.  Don't do it.

The question then becomes, "Does suicide prove a lack of saving faith, that is, that the person is not born again or has fallen away, and is apart from God's grace in Jesus?"

Only God knows the heart.  I do believe that Christians, for various reasons, might commit this sin in weakness, although they have not lost faith.  Jesus died for that sin too.  I do believe that some suicides are in heaven and plenty more are in hell.  "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. He that believeth not shall be damned."

I have changed my belief on this, I used to think they went to hell and that they were real assholes.
But I had an interesting conversation with my father about this that changed my thoughts on it.

If someone is that mentally ill as to take their own life (since it goes against basic self preservation),
then would they really be condemned? And then to take it a step further as a Christian that persons
sins were paid In Full by Christ on the cross.

So I would say if they are a believer than they would most likely go to heaven.

I'm pretty sure his beliefs are solid enough that kid gloves are not needed, but one can disagree with another's faith, or lack thereof, without being insulting.  And I will add that while OP obviously offers answers based upon his faith when questions are asked concerning it, he does so in a polite and respectful manner, unlike some of the athiests who participate in these threads.

One the one hand, a person could simply say "No, suicides do not go to heaven, because there is no heaven."  A simple statement of fact, fully supported by the poster's beliefs (or lack of beliefs, if you prefer.)

I don't think most Christians would, or should, take issue with that comment.

But to make remarks about "silly fantasies" or the like simply adds an insulting and rude tone to the thread, with no apparent point, other than to upset or mock people.

A reasoned approach. Perhaps closest to the truth from my limited understanding of things.

But you understand the fundamental problem with your explanation, don't you? Economics. It won't put butts in the pews. People aren't going to tithe for the hope of getting nothing. I fear for you future as a religious entrepreneur.

If someone is contemplating taking their own life (absent some sort of extreme reason), then aren't they pretty much "mentally ill" by definition?

So why would Christ condemn any of them?

People who kill themselves aren't of sound mind in the first place.  I doubt they are weighing their options so carefully.  I also have a hard time believing that a loving God would send someone struggling with depression on the express elevator to hell.  

Nobody acts with freewill when you have a God who knows every choice you will make before he created you.

I truly do not know for 100%
Though I would tend to believe if one was truly anti God and then became mentally ill
and committed suicide that their former actions may have ready condemned them.

Heaven is just as made up of a place as hell. We go fertilize some dirt and that's about it.

He knows all, yes, but does not control us like marionettes.  We are accountable for our own actions.

No one can be assured of their own salvation except the one who goes by faith that the word of God is true.
However, many who proclaim to be Christian do not necessarily subscribe to this truth.
The man or woman who has committed suicide has done so for more than just one reason.
But, to most if not all, it is to relieve some sort of pain. But as most of us know, pain can and will come in various forms. As a personal testimony about it, I have suffered things in my life and survived, as where someone who that I considered a close personal friend in my life, did not by taking his own life by his own hand. I have known several people and even a family member who have taken their own lives, so I believe that as a witness to that, then what I say is valid as a truth from my own personal experiences about it, and not a second hand testimony.
I have found in each and every instance minus a severe and debilitating disease, which in that case I have known none, that all have been motivated to do so in some sort of quest for revenge against another without the possibility of reconciliation with another.
However, I believe that the Bible is clear concerning the questions that we may have about suicide.
According to the Bible, in my first Biblical posting in this thread, the Apostle Paul is specifically instructing believer's who have born-again, or who have been given the Holy Spirit of God by God-given election. (1st Corinthians 3: 16-18).
Here in my humble opinion, Paul, is proclaiming that the ones who God will destroy for such an act even though made in God's image and according to His likeness who have not received the Holy Spirit, or the Spirit of the resurrection will not inherit the kingdom of God no matter how they die.
It is also my belief that if the Holy Spirit dwells in anyone, then by that Spirit which the Holy Bible says is much stronger and more powerfull than any mortal man, then you will not kill in this manner.
The Bible also clearly states that there is only one appointed time and place for a man to lose his life.
One of Jesus' disciples named Judas Iscariot died by hanging himself to a tree and impaled.
The Bible says that cursed is every man who hangs from a tree.
It is my understanding also that God hung His own Son from a tree, or an instrument of torture, and death, made from a tree, or I believe to be a representation of a tree of corruption (Or the Tree of Good and Evil; Genesis Chapter 2) so that we would not have to feel or remember the sting of death once physical death has been achieved, as it has been written, and according to all of these things have been done.

It's not a one-time thing. That is, the decision to become a Christian does not absolve you of all further responsibility. You may be saved by accepting Christ, but you may become un-saved by your subsequent actions. A flagrant and unrepentant sinner knowingly separates himself from God, regardless of a formulaic confession of faith earlier in life.

Do you suppose that a Mafioso, a murderer, is going to Heaven just because he was baptized and accepted Christ (personally or by proxy, through his godparents) before he got into a criminal career?

Climb down off your cross.

I believe God knows what's going on. There is such a thing as mental illness. I'll let him judge.

This thread still has quite a bit of potential, and is off to a good start.

Another thread about "Does where the flame goes when you blow out the candle depend on who blows it out?"

How do you know he did?

The rain god, obviously.

If he knows all before he created you (and every choice you will make), he does control you like a marionette (or more like a programmed robot).

What it someone drinks themselves to death over a period of time? Or uses cocaine until their heart eventually gives out? They have killed themselves too. Do they go to hell?

I don't know. There's lots of possibilities. I don't believe he said anything about TOMORROW, though . . .

God will judge each person individually. He knows the circumstances better than anyone.  My guess is we will be surprised who is in heaven and more surprised by who isn't. ymmv

The Cathechism of the Catholic Church says that suicide is against our natural instinct to survive and is therefore indicative of mental disturbance, which lessens ones responsibility for committing suicide.

From the Cathechism of the Catholic Church:

"Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives."

Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens . . . (the Talking Heads)

If pedophiles, and rapists, and genocidal maniacs can, I don't see why suicides couldn't.

I remember wondering as a kid, if you could commit suicide in heaven.

The way heaven was explained to me back then seemed like it might come in handy.  

Sister De Lourdes:  "When you die you go to heaven, you can be with god, worship him and sing his praises forever..."

Me:  "Sister De Lourdes, that sounds like mass"

Sister De Lourdes: "Yes ....but it never ends"

Me:  "oh....crap"

Sister De Lourdes: "The cheek of you, (ruler out, blazing)

That is a seriously different point of view between Calvinism (and religions that are derived from it), and Catholics.  We believe part of being made in the image and likeness of God is our freewill.  Without freewill, our love would mean absolutely nothing.  Furthermore, addressing the Once Saved, Always Saved argument - it assumes the person has no free will to reject God.  Within Calvinism, some are destined for Heaven, some Hell - and it's simply Gods little joke which group you belong to.  Catholics feel we are saved by faith, through grace.  But while the grace is freely offered - freewill allows it to be rejected.  

Quoted:


I remember wondering as a kid, if you could commit suicide in heaven.

The way heaven was explained to me back then seemed like it might come in handy.  

Sister De Lourdes:  "When you die you go to heaven, you can be with god, worship him and sing his praises forever..."

Me:  "Sister De Lourdes, that sounds like mass"

Within Jewish tradition, Jacob was tricked into marring Rachel older sister.  To make sure that never happened again, we now have the tradition of removing the veil in weddings - so we can see things as they are (reveal).  Revelation in the bible has a double meaning - it is to show things as they are, but it is also a reference to a wedding - the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.  So try to think of it more like mass is a poor imitation of the party that is awaiting us at the eternal wedding feast.

Wrong premise.  You ask for forgiveness because you have been deemed pardoned by God.  Now indwelling, the Holy Spirit prompts believers to repent.

Yes, people who commit suicide can go to heaven as previously pardoned.

Actually, Jesus talked about heaven coming to us, not us going to heaven. There is a difference.

Nor height, nor depth--neither the height of prosperity and preferment, nor the depth of adversity and disgrace nothing from heaven above, no storms, no tempests nothing on earth below, no rocks, no seas, no dungeons.

Nor any other creature--any thing that can be named or thought of. It will not, it cannot, separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

That, I think more has to do with the process of the election of God more than anything else.
As Old Painless has spoken as a truth, a born-again believe no matter in what condition, will inherit the kingdom of God and without delay.
Doesn't sound completely fair I know as a logical point of view, but is clearly taught that way in the word of God, as loss to the believer at the time of his judgment according to the mercy seat of Christ, as those works will burn, yet the one in Christ, or, "In Him," will certainly live and not burn.
Someone could die from over or under eating or potentially dangerous exercise like power lifting also.
Could be credited that way to almost anything that is not achieved by at least common sense and reasonable measure also.

Yea what would you do all day in heaven? And I'm guessing you don't need sleep so it's 24/7. Eventually it must get boring, and it's for an eternity.

I think being dead when you are dead sounds like a good thing. Nothing can, or should go on forever. Enjoy the time you have here.

Well let's go with this for a minute; what if how he's suffering is a testament to his faith for others who are watching? What if the surrounding family/friends are watching how he is reconciling himself with his illness and his earthly life's end? Does his faith allow him to show them that he is prepared to meet God and is okay with that? Would suicide prevent him from showing (and testifying to) his faith?

I just lost a friend to brain cancer. Despite his pain, his serenity and faith impacted his grandchildren greatly. He showed them he was ready and they understood not to "blame God" for taking him from them. Perhaps this is why he was put here on earth in the first place. Suicide would have prevented him from doing God's will. Life is a tough call.

Again I will let God decide.

Pretty sure the bible also speaks of the unforgivable sin - The sin against the Holy Spirit.  Nothing can keep God from loving us - but that very love would keep God from forcing us to accept him.



I love you so much I will force myself on you, you will see I am right eventually.  When that happens on earth it is generally called kidnapping and rape.

This is so wrong it's saddening.

All of your sins have been forgiven, whether you ask for forgiveness or not.

I agree.

Even bliss would get boring.  I can certainly see why people though reincarnation would be better.  At least there might be some novelty to it.  

 
could you provide scriptural reference

I believe that you understand little about the physical after-life in the kingdom of God.

And they don't like it when you masturbate.