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Posted: 4/24/2001 8:05:13 PM EDT
The M16/Ar15 did NOT even rate! the AK47 rated #5 in the rating the #1 is the maxum machinegun. whats this you say? the M16 should of rated #1! not what the expert's say.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 8:14:20 PM EDT
I saw the program, and gave a good bit of thought to their choices. IMHO 'they' were correct in leaving the M16 off the list. It broke no historical boundaries given that the AK, another select-fire personal weapon was on the list. However, I think a modern SA pistol should have been on the list, perhaps the 9mm Glock. Modern tupperware, light, reliable, a vast difference between the revolver and 1911 that did make the list... Trouble is, I can't decide which of the 10 'they' chose could be bumped for the Glock. Just one man's thoughts... DanM
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 8:22:34 PM EDT
Didn't see the program, but the Maxim gun sounds like the gun to put on the top 10 "most influential" guns. The parts it played in the colonization of Africa and the first world war are why I'd put the Maxim in on top. There is an excellent little book by Jonathan Ellis titled "The Social History of the Machine Gun. Could you list the others that made top ten? I am thinking that the MG34 or 42 would have to be on there. Maybe early repeating or cartridge rifles. Hopefully John Browning has something on that list as well. Pistols just don't seem that pivotal in influencing world affairs. Cool toys, if you like 'em.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 8:29:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2001 8:29:27 PM EDT by MG_ME]
Bar, kentucky rifle, Ak47, brown bess rifle, maxum was the #1 i would place it there. M1 garand(My all time favorite), the 1911, K98, colt/sharps(I THINK) revolver. i really figured the M16 would might be because of being modular. i guess not.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 8:29:43 PM EDT
I didn't catch the show, can someone list the top ten.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 8:29:45 PM EDT
10) B.A.R 9) Kentucky Rifle 8) M1 Garand 7) Matchlock 6) AK-47 5) Mauser '98 4) Colt 1911 3) Brown Bess 2) Colt-Patterson 1) Maxim This is pretty close but not entirely sure of the order, 1,2,9, and 10 im positive about the rest are maybe off by one spot or so.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 8:32:47 PM EDT
was it the colt-patterson? and a matchlock. i couldnt name off the top of my head.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 8:34:06 PM EDT
Ustulina: Browning designs on the list were the BAR and the 1911. I'm not sure that the criteria was 'influencing world affairs'. In fact if they stated a criteria I missed it completely. There was a musket, the Kentucky Rifle, the M1, the 1911, the BAR, the Maxim, Mauser, the AK, the one with the burning rope, and the Colt Patterson. Not in order, though Maxim was #1 and BAR was #10. DanM
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 8:34:31 PM EDT
In my opinion, the AK47 was the first "mass produced" assault rifle, where the AR 15, was an answer to it. I think what the producers were trying to show, were significant steps in the evolution of small arms. This, in my opinion, is the reason that the Glock was left off the list. The 1911 pistol was the first succesful "mass produced" semi automatic pistol. Where, the Glock was an answer to it. If you were going to say the Ar15 was more important than the AK47, the same could be said of the FAL, the HKG3, or the SIG 550. This is purely a matter of opinion. I think the point is the FIRST gun of a particular type, or a gun that was used to effect a significant change in world power was what they were trying to show. Just my 2cents.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 8:36:03 PM EDT
can you imagine hunting and fighting with the burning rope weapon.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 8:39:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2001 8:40:19 PM EDT by MG_ME]
really te AK47 was the answer to the Stg44 the germans had. then the M16 was the answer to the ak47. now what's the answer to the M16? the oicw then the answer to the OICW would be a plasma rifle in a 40 watt range.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 8:42:10 PM EDT
MG_ME: I suspect, based on this one TV show, that at the time the burning-rope ignition system was as impressive as a real-life Hans Solo Blaster would be to us now. Just a guess. DanM
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 8:47:27 PM EDT
Gotta say, I think that the Lewis gun or even the Chaut chaut was the same kind of gun as the BAR. Relatively portable machine gun with magazine feed. No doubt that the BAR was better though. I still like "Hitler's Zipper." Detachable barrel, versatile, fires like the devil. Largely sheet metal. A quantum leap. But then they are experts and I am an unemployed grad student with way too much time on his hands. Thanks for the criterion clarification, DanM.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 8:51:05 PM EDT
Didn't catch the program, but I have "The Tales of The Gun" video set and I think 308Fan is right. What I get out of them is that they are trying to show the ten significant firearms in the evolution of firearms. If they were'nt, I think they sure missed the ten best, of all time. Also, for any ten best, you would have to establish some criteria in order to narrow it down. A lot of it would be oranges and apples, as far as I am concerned. Just not comparable, i.e., bolt actions, lever actons, semi-autos, full autos, etc. What was best for one period of time is certainly not best for another. Just my .10 cents worth (with inflation.)
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 9:01:52 PM EDT
Ustulina: What was/is "Hilter's Zipper"? Enjoy being an unemployed grad student while you are there... Corporate life can suck. DanM
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 9:24:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2001 9:26:40 PM EDT by 308_fan]
Originally Posted By MG_ME: really te AK47 was the answer to the Stg44 the germans had.
View Quote
I agree, the German "sturmgewehr" was the original assault rifle, but as I trying to point out, the AK was the first "mass produced" assault rifle. The Stg 44 came to late in the war and in too few numbers to really be considered one gun that changed the world. After all, look how mant countries use or have used the AK47. If things had turned out differently, maybe we be talking about the Stg 44 in this role. Funny how history works aint it? However, the Stg 44 does deserve some of the credit. Anyone can see where the Ruskies got the idea for the AK 47.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 11:28:48 PM EDT
An excellent program as usual with excellent choices. I also agree with 308. At first, I was also surprised by the choice of the Maxim, but I accept their justification that as the first self-loading firearm all other autoloaders owe something to it.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 11:33:44 PM EDT
Updated list. 10. BAR 9. Kentucky Rifle 8. Matchlock Musket 7. M1 Garand 6. AK-47 5. Mauser G 98 4. Brown Bess 3. Colt 1911 2. Colt Patterson Revolver 1. Maxim
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 11:46:17 PM EDT
What difference does it make how mass produced the AK-47 was? It doesn't change the fact that it didn't break any new ground that the Stg44 already hadn't. then again, while I generally enjoy the series, Tales of the Gun often has inaccuracies and should definitely not be considered a comprehensive or really even authorative source of information about firearms.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 11:48:16 PM EDT
I think they did a pretty good job with the list of the top 10 firearms. Sure it would of been nice to see an AR-15 or a Glock but these are the top 10 guns that are most influential. These are guns that made history around the world not just in the gun industry. Six
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 4:10:31 AM EDT
What?!?!?!?!?!?!? The Thompson did not make the list? I demand a recount. (Being from FL, I can do that.)
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 4:22:00 AM EDT
Sorry-- Hitler's zipper was a reference to the MG 42 which fired at around 1200 rpm and made a distinctive sound. I don't know if the zipper meant referred to the literally to fly fastener or the fact that the German squads were able to piss all over their enemies based on firepower. I figure a machine gun that is still in frontline service after nearly sixty years in a pivotal role for the infantry (as opposed to the pistol) is a damn good one. First GPMG, and it's clearly useful. DanM-- the couple of years I spent in corporate life, I kind of enjoyed. I worked in a conservative industry where just about everybody hunted and fished and swore like sailers. My fondest memory is still taking a "cigarette break" during a MS Office seminar and seeing a bunch of friends swapping home-made jerky. Only in Southern Oregon.
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 4:30:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By operator error: Updated list. 10. BAR 9. Kentucky Rifle 8. Matchlock Musket 7. M1 Garand 6. AK-47 5. Mauser G 98 4. Brown Bess 3. Colt 1911 2. Colt Patterson Revolver 1. Maxim
View Quote
Uhhmmmm.....could someone please explain to me how the AK47, mauser and the Brown Bess rate higher than the M1 Garand??? Didn't the guys with the M1 win WWII??? Wasn't the M1 the FIRST mass produced semi-auto battle rifle that used the gas piston system??? Isn't the FAL (the most widely used arm in the free world today) based on the M1's gas piston system?? Same with the AK???? Damned ruskies stole our technology. [:D] Didn't Patton, who knew a thing or two on the subject, describe the M1 as "the GREATEST battle implement EVER devised??" Didn't the guys with the Brown Bess's LOSE the War for Independence??? How many military's today are using Mauser action rifles?? I think Botswana's military still uses the 98. To me, the M1 HAS TO BE #3 all time. Colt 1911 shouldn't even make the list. No handgun should. The ONLY reason the Colt Patterson might is that it was the first major incorporation of rapid fire technology. This is what happens when TV people rate guns. They'll NEVER get their facts right.
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 4:44:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 5:11:38 AM EDT
the show was interested in demonstrating the mechanical paradigm shifts & feats in engineering rather than the historical significance of the weapon...but since the AK was a tear off the german design I was a little surprised the AK made it so far up on the list...I think they enjoyed being able to put in some video with Kalash himself to spice up the video In terms of making things happen historically I think Ma Duece should have been up there...but glocks were another paradigm shift in terms of materials and that would have been a good subject..perhaps they will do a whole show on the glock and use of polymers....
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 5:43:33 AM EDT
I agree with the M16/AR15 not making the list. Great rifle, but not a world changer. I do think the Glock should have made it. It led the way into polymers in guns, large capacity, light weight, simplified controls.
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 6:19:53 AM EDT
Oh hell I'd find room for the AR15 on the list somewhere. First widespread weapon to use "space age" technology and materials. And although people said the same with the adoption of the first .30 cal. weapons about a century ago, the AR15 was the first rifle to popularize the small high velocity bullet in a combat weapon, a trend that obviously has stuck with us for awhile and was verified with the creation of the AK74.
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 6:43:55 AM EDT
I didnt see the show but I do study history and collect older firearms and have studied many of thos on the list. For what little its worth I will give my opinions on why some of these are on the list. The Maxim was invented in the 1880's and literally took the world into the weapons of mass destruction era. It was used by virtually every nation on earth at some point and subdued Africa, created devastation in Asia and nearly conquered Europe. Its influence in design and function set the stage for all modern MG's and even pistol designs (Luger and Borchardt). Fear was created in the world in the late 19th and early 20th Century by the mere sight of a Maxim. The Colt Patterson was the first successful revolver and repeating pistol to be mass produced and more importantly, was reliable. It was the father of every repeating pistol. The K98 was the venerable Mauser design from 1898 which influenced virtually all bolt action designs after that. It started as the Gewehr 98 and was shortened to the K98 before WW2. Wherever there were warriors fighting in the 20th Century you found the Mauser 98 design rifle. Sometimes on both sides. It, along with the Maxim MG, decided world politics up to the middle of the last Century. The AK47 speaks for itself. Not the FIRST assault rifle but definitely the most successful and by far most produced weapon. From the early 60's to the present it has taken over as the weapon of revolutionaries, freedom fighters, terrorists and "far right wing militias and baby killers" (according to Clinton/Gore loving media). It is everywhere that a battle is taking place and has come to represent war, revolution and world wide Communism and oppression. Personally I cant think of a firearm that has had more worldwide influence than the AK. The Garand ushered in the semi-auto battle rifle era and allowed a major nation to outgun what was considered a superior warrior nation. It actualy was a short lived main weapon as better designs came along soon after but it started a new trend away from the bolt rifle which was every countries main battle rifle, except the US, up through WW2. The BAR, although not technically the first, was definitely the most successful and most used squad automatic weapon. Came out in WW1 but achieved its fame in WW2. It allowed a small unit to move fast and lay down heavy firepower without being bogged down with a crew served weapon and cans of ammo to lug around. It was a major influence on present designs, as far as uses go. Now almost every nation uses a squad automatic weapon as a regular part of its units weapons. Just my opinions here, nothing more.
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 8:02:56 AM EDT
Have to give the HISTORY channel credit for taking on such A program in these times of the politically correct.They do a great job and supply us with ammo to banter with.However, the M16/AR15 has to on there!It was "THE BLACK GUN".
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 9:01:11 AM EDT
Not that I'm a huge fan of it, but I'm a little surprised the Henry repeating rifle wasn't on the list, especially in view of the fact that the so-called 'Kentucky rifle' and the 'Brown Bess' are basically just variations on a theme and therefore, IMHO, redundant. The Henry (and all of the derivatives thereafter, Winchester etc.) was a dramatic jump in rapid firepower compared to what was then prevalent, and was firmly etched in this nation's past as the dominant weapon technology for several decades.
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 9:11:45 AM EDT
What was the fellow's name that fought off the German's with the two BAR's? I liked it when they said he hit those antitank type rockets against the window sill and tossed them down on the Germans! WOW! I was glad to see Mr. Ian V. Hogg there in the interview, he helped write on of my favorite reference books: "Military Small Arms of the 20th Century" TF
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 9:36:30 AM EDT
Hitler's Zipper was the MG 42? I always thought that the nickname for the MG42 was "Hitler's Saw". Were zippers invented by WWII?
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 9:44:50 AM EDT
I think I am too stupid to have dreamed up "Hitler's Zipper" on my own, but you're definitely right; some it's also called "Hitler's Saw." As for the trouser fastening device history: In 1913, a new guy, Gideon Sundback, produced a better model - the modern zipper (its only drawback was that it rusted closed after washing). His first order went to the U. S. Army for clothing and equipment (after all, WWI was going on). It may seem obvious to us today, but people couldn't figure out how to use the zipper. It actually came with directions. (Something like - make sure your private parts are not hanging out and pull up?) Still, no one wanted them. Along comes the savior - B. F. Goodrich himself. In 1923, good old B.F. (as those of us close to him called him) ordered 150,000 of them for his new product - rubber galoshes. Until this point, they were called hookless fasteners. B. F. liked the z-z-zip sound they made and coined the term zipper. The rest is zipper history - until 1948.
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 9:44:57 AM EDT
I didn't see that show but I did tape the show they had "Guns of the Century" They said Eugene Stoner and Kalashnikov got together back in the 80's and Stoner had his own private plane and Kalashnikov had to borrow the money for airfare. Stoner received royalties on his rifles. Kalashnikov got a medal and lives on beans.
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