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Posted: 8/28/2015 12:58:45 PM EDT
[#1]
wean off people from the public trough - this would turn things around quickly
seal (or at least better manage) the borders -= would be easier if we did the first point prosecute politicians - get rid of a protected political class - term limits? go back to appointing Senators and remove the election of them. Those few things would solve 90% of the problems in this country |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:01:23 PM EDT
[#2]
The experiment is all but over, and the conclusion has been reached. Just the cleanup of the beakers, burners and spilt salt remains. People prefer subjugation to freedom.
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:01:58 PM EDT
[#3]
The experiment only works when people are trained to have self restraint.
Our society has broken and reversed this particular constraint and thus the experiment is doomed. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:05:26 PM EDT
[#4]
The land of the Free is now the land of the over taxed, regulated and watched, but its been shown that americans will tolerate any form of enslavement so long as they have a thin veil of "freedom" placed over their chains.
They bitch, they moan, but this country doesn't give a shit about any of what the government does, we're too lazy, too fat, too well entertained. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:06:08 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The experiment only works when people are trained to have self restraint. Our society has broken and reversed this particular constraint and thus the experiment is doomed. Isn't Liberty the freedom from restraint? What you see as self restraint, others may see as wasting their lives on someone else's opinionated vision of morality. If Liberty requires restraint in order to survive, but by it's very nature is the freedom to throw off restraint, then is Liberty itself a flawed concept? |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:06:39 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The experiment is all but over, and the conclusion has been reached. Just the cleanup of the beakers, burners and spilt salt remains. People prefer subjugation to freedom. 
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:09:52 PM EDT
[#7]
Yes, it's over.
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:13:31 PM EDT
[#8]
Even the founders knew it wouldn't last forever.
And what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure.
- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, Paris, 13 Nov. 1787 Resistance and rebellion are to be expected if a people wish to remain free. Freedom is not mans natural state. People will vote themselves back into serfdom, willingly. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:19:15 PM EDT
[#9]
We're on the steady decline in which both citizens and officials realize they can vote themselves benefits, and no one can take them away without decreasing the say of said people.
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:21:04 PM EDT
[#10]
I'd say it's downhill from here.
Big data and statistics clearly show that people self segregate provided the opportunity and we're literally losing a couple places a year in the freedom index (which is a characterization of press freedom, corruption, government, etc) |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:25:42 PM EDT
[#11]
It failed as soon as folks figured out they could vote themselves cash out of the treasury.
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:26:29 PM EDT
[#12]
It hasn't failed. It's been subverted as early as 1913. Phuc Woody Wilson, FDR, LBJ and everyone after him.
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:29:43 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The experiment is all but over, and the conclusion has been reached. Just the cleanup of the beakers, burners and spilt salt remains. People prefer subjugation to freedom. The only thing I will add to this is: There is no fixing it, we are way past the point of no return. The government functions solely for its own benefit now, the people are now nothing more than cogs in the machine. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:32:00 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It failed as soon as folks figured out they could vote themselves cash out of the treasury. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:32:49 PM EDT
[#15]
The Great Experiment didn't fail. The American people did. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:33:05 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
wean off people from the public trough - this would turn things around quickly seal (or at least better manage) the borders -= would be easier if we did the first point prosecute politicians - get rid of a protected political class - term limits? go back to appointing Senators and remove the election of them. Those few things would solve 90% of the problems in this country I don't think the Great Experiment has failed just yet, but I am certain the individual liberty as envisioned by the Founding Fathers has been greatly restricted and is in a very precarious position, and if we continue down our current path it will most certainly fail. I agree with dorbuta. I would also like to add that the keystone which holds his previous points in place is the 16th Amendment. Without the ability to tax income at whatever amount they desire to fund their campaign promises (buy votes) they would no longer have the ability to fund the public trough anywhere near the present levels. Repeal the 16th and institute a National Sales Tax. Pass an Amendment that requires a balanced budget and limits the deficit balance to no more than 6% of GDP. Repeal the 17th and return the election of Senators to the States. Pass an Amendment that limits Senators to 2 terms and Congressmen to 4 terms. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:35:02 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The experiment is all but over, and the conclusion has been reached. Just the cleanup of the beakers, burners and spilt salt remains. People prefer subjugation to freedom. http://elfennau.net/x_elements_x/wallpapers/elfennau_lokikneel1.jpg Sad but true. 
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:40:56 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The only thing I will add to this is: There is no fixing it, we are way past the point of no return. The government functions solely for its own benefit now, the people are now nothing more than cogs in the machine. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The experiment is all but over, and the conclusion has been reached. Just the cleanup of the beakers, burners and spilt salt remains. People prefer subjugation to freedom. The only thing I will add to this is: There is no fixing it, we are way past the point of no return. The government functions solely for its own benefit now, the people are now nothing more than cogs in the machine. The Declaration of Independance states what I believe to be a universal truth which applies to any form of government. "...that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..." Without popular support, no form of government can survive for long, be it a democracy, republic or fascist dictatorship. This is why dictatorships always try to maintain total control over the dissemination of information. It was the consent of the governed that allowed the Nazis to take control of Germany and it was the governed revoking their consent which caused the fall of the Communist Bloc in Europe. The politicians may be serving their own ends and turning America in a different direction, but it does nothing without the consent of the American people. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:40:57 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It hasn't failed. It's been subverted as early as 1913. Phuc Woody Wilson, FDR, LBJ and everyone after him. I'd put it at 1794 -- the federal response to the Whiskey Rebellion, which started as a protest whose demands included that the feds maintain and secure the border even back then, should have told everyone everything they needed to know about how the federal government would treat citizens on both sides--that is, with contempt and abuse. The Feds attempted a draft to raise troops to send against the West--even in the East, draft dodging was prevalent. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:43:18 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Isn't Liberty the freedom from restraint? What you see as self restraint, others may see as wasting their lives on someone else's opinionated vision of morality. If Liberty requires restraint in order to survive, but by it's very nature is the freedom to throw off restraint, then is Liberty itself a flawed concept? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The experiment only works when people are trained to have self restraint. Our society has broken and reversed this particular constraint and thus the experiment is doomed. Isn't Liberty the freedom from restraint? What you see as self restraint, others may see as wasting their lives on someone else's opinionated vision of morality. If Liberty requires restraint in order to survive, but by it's very nature is the freedom to throw off restraint, then is Liberty itself a flawed concept? That may be true. However, we as a country/society have tried to take away the consequences of our actions. As the saying goes, "With great freedom comes great responsibility." Acknowledging the consequences of our actions is what drives the need for self restraint. ARnutt |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:43:39 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think the Great Experiment has failed just yet, but I am certain the individual liberty as envisioned by the Founding Fathers has been greatly restricted and is in a very precarious position, and if we continue down our current path it will most certainly fail. I agree with dorbuta. I would also like to add that the keystone which holds his previous points in place is the 16th Amendment. Without the ability to tax income at whatever amount they desire to fund their campaign promises (buy votes) they would no longer have the ability to fund the public trough anywhere near the present levels. Repeal the 16th and institute a National Sales Tax. Pass an Amendment that requires a balanced budget and limits the deficit balance to no more than 6% of GDP. Repeal the 17th and return the election of Senators to the States. Pass an Amendment that limits Senators to 2 terms and Congressmen to 4 terms. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: wean off people from the public trough - this would turn things around quickly seal (or at least better manage) the borders -= would be easier if we did the first point prosecute politicians - get rid of a protected political class - term limits? go back to appointing Senators and remove the election of them. Those few things would solve 90% of the problems in this country I don't think the Great Experiment has failed just yet, but I am certain the individual liberty as envisioned by the Founding Fathers has been greatly restricted and is in a very precarious position, and if we continue down our current path it will most certainly fail. I agree with dorbuta. I would also like to add that the keystone which holds his previous points in place is the 16th Amendment. Without the ability to tax income at whatever amount they desire to fund their campaign promises (buy votes) they would no longer have the ability to fund the public trough anywhere near the present levels. Repeal the 16th and institute a National Sales Tax. Pass an Amendment that requires a balanced budget and limits the deficit balance to no more than 6% of GDP. Repeal the 17th and return the election of Senators to the States. Pass an Amendment that limits Senators to 2 terms and Congressmen to 4 terms. I don't disagree with you, but you're talking about a lot of amending...amending that would upset a lot of apple carts. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:49:31 PM EDT
[#22]
The fat lady may be warming up, but she hasn't sung yet.
Besides, what is the value in giving up? |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:51:31 PM EDT
[#23]
Several founders said our form of government would only work for a religious and moral people. As soon as we abandoned those we got the result they all knew we would eventually.
They were quite prophetic actually |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 1:52:44 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It failed as soon as folks figured out they could vote themselves cash out of the treasury. 200 years till implosion seems to be the standard for democracy. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 2:23:00 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It hasn't failed. It's been subverted as early as 1913. Phuc Woody Wilson, FDR, LBJ and everyone after him. This. It did not and has not failed even under the weight of all the corruptors who have been working to destroy it for over a hundred years. Our system of self governing produced the greatest nation and the greatest people ever to grace the earth and yet some of you think yourselves worthy to declare it a failure. As for the disturbingly high number of mewling little babies here that miss no opportunity to declare the greatest nation on earth dead. You are all as damaging to the republic as are it's corruptors and I am disgusted by each one of you for your capitulation. Liberty is reinforced by those willing to keep it, not by pussies who forecast it's doom. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 2:24:49 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd put it at 1794 -- the federal response to the Whiskey Rebellion, which started as a protest whose demands included that the feds maintain and secure the border even back then, should have told everyone everything they needed to know about how the federal government would treat citizens on both sides--that is, with contempt and abuse. The Feds attempted a draft to raise troops to send against the West--even in the East, draft dodging was prevalent. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It hasn't failed. It's been subverted as early as 1913. Phuc Woody Wilson, FDR, LBJ and everyone after him. I'd put it at 1794 -- the federal response to the Whiskey Rebellion, which started as a protest whose demands included that the feds maintain and secure the border even back then, should have told everyone everything they needed to know about how the federal government would treat citizens on both sides--that is, with contempt and abuse. The Feds attempted a draft to raise troops to send against the West--even in the East, draft dodging was prevalent. OK, forgot about that. In some ways we would have been better off sticking with the Articles of Confederation. 
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Posted: 8/28/2015 2:25:57 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Several founders said our form of government would only work for a religious and moral people. As soon as we abandoned those we got the result they all knew we would eventually. They were quite prophetic actually Nope. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 2:27:55 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some dead white guy said that was going to happen. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It failed as soon as folks figured out they could vote themselves cash out of the treasury. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 2:29:01 PM EDT
[#29]
The founders might have been onto something with the "white male landowners" only be able to vote. I'm not saying we should restrict voting by race or gender anymore, but having some meat in the game (being a landowner) wasn't a coincidence. We were designed as a republic in order to preserve liberty, we weren't a democracy for a reason
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Posted: 8/28/2015 2:29:13 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The experiment is all but over, and the conclusion has been reached. Just the cleanup of the beakers, burners and spilt salt remains. People prefer subjugation to freedom. Shitz hard, yo. and the people that it was for and by aren't the same. If it were I think things would be a lot different. and that's all I have to say about that. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 2:29:22 PM EDT
[#31]
No. It's always a back and forth. When something goes too extreme to one direction the pendulum will swing the other way due to resistance. We're simply swinging in an undesirable direction, but only after much progress has been made as a result of this "experiment." While there is always a push for puritanical laws, if we look back at our history we have really achieved a lot, and in many ways things are better today than ever before. It's not all doom and gloom. We will soon swing the other direction and things will be a lot better. It's all cyclical. Nothing is going to be "perfect" forever.
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Posted: 8/28/2015 2:30:25 PM EDT
[#32]
It failed the day liberals paid for votes with welfare
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Posted: 8/28/2015 2:31:42 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
wean off people from the public trough - this would turn things around quickly seal (or at least better manage) the borders -= would be easier if we did the first point prosecute politicians - get rid of a protected political class - term limits? go back to appointing Senators and remove the election of them. Those few things would solve 90% of the problems in this country Yes, it would. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 2:32:31 PM EDT
[#34]
The great experiment was a rousing success, for a few decades. Then the socialists/statists found a foothold and have slowly been moving us towards socialism ever since. With that said, I'd still prefer to live in America than any other country on this planet. Ask me that questions again in 50 years and I might have a different answer for you as we draw closer to full-blown socialism/communism.
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Posted: 8/28/2015 2:32:41 PM EDT
[#35]
No "great" nation has lasted. This one will be no different - it is already in decline.
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Posted: 8/28/2015 2:37:39 PM EDT
[#36]
I think we're proven that homogeneity is a hell of a lot more important than anyone wants to admit.
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Posted: 8/28/2015 2:53:29 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A Frenchman no less. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It failed as soon as folks figured out they could vote themselves cash out of the treasury. Alexis de Toqueville. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 3:00:13 PM EDT
[#38]
When run as designed, second to none the best country in World history. As is now...with Socialism mixed in...it's in the works of failing.
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Posted: 8/28/2015 3:01:33 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The experiment is all but over, and the conclusion has been reached. Just the cleanup of the beakers, burners and spilt salt remains. People prefer subjugation to freedom. Sadly, I believe this may be the case. Sheep like to be herded. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 3:09:40 PM EDT
[#40]
Were we ever really free?
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Posted: 8/28/2015 3:14:57 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Isn't Liberty the freedom from restraint? What you see as self restraint, others may see as wasting their lives on someone else's opinionated vision of morality. If Liberty requires restraint in order to survive, but by it's very nature is the freedom to throw off restraint, then is Liberty itself a flawed concept? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The experiment only works when people are trained to have self restraint. Our society has broken and reversed this particular constraint and thus the experiment is doomed. Isn't Liberty the freedom from restraint? What you see as self restraint, others may see as wasting their lives on someone else's opinionated vision of morality. If Liberty requires restraint in order to survive, but by it's very nature is the freedom to throw off restraint, then is Liberty itself a flawed concept? There is a difference between self restraint and government restraint. The lack of self restraint creates the demand for government restraint. This is compounded by the government liking being able to restrain or not restrain based on whoever is paying the biggest bribe. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 3:16:12 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd say it's downhill from here. Big data and statistics clearly show that people self segregate provided the opportunity and we're literally losing a couple places a year in the freedom index (which is a characterization of press freedom, corruption, government, etc) It's been downhill since they gave nonlandowners, ie "taxpayers", the right to vote. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 3:22:34 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think we're proven that homogeneity is a hell of a lot more important than anyone wants to admit. You are absolutely right. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 3:30:20 PM EDT
[#44]
Lyndon Johnson drove the nails into Liberty's coffin when he implemented his Great Society plan: "I'll have those n*****s voting Democratic for the next two hundred years."
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Posted: 8/28/2015 3:31:04 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
200 years till implosion seems to be the standard for democracy. The U.S. is not, and was never intended to be, a "democracy." That said, it's vastly closer to it now than it ever has been previously, which is the root of the whole problem. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 3:49:25 PM EDT
[#46]
the selfish character that makes up the majority will overwhelm the self determination and independence of the minority. a tyrant/dictator will appear, as the last nail.
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Posted: 8/28/2015 3:51:23 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's been downhill since they gave nonlandowners, ie "taxpayers", the right to vote. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'd say it's downhill from here. Big data and statistics clearly show that people self segregate provided the opportunity and we're literally losing a couple places a year in the freedom index (which is a characterization of press freedom, corruption, government, etc) It's been downhill since they gave nonlandowners, ie "taxpayers", the right to vote. Pretty much |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 4:00:05 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is a difference between self restraint and government restraint. The lack of self restraint creates the demand for government restraint. This is compounded by the government liking being able to restrain or not restrain based on whoever is paying the biggest bribe. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The experiment only works when people are trained to have self restraint. Our society has broken and reversed this particular constraint and thus the experiment is doomed. Isn't Liberty the freedom from restraint? What you see as self restraint, others may see as wasting their lives on someone else's opinionated vision of morality. If Liberty requires restraint in order to survive, but by it's very nature is the freedom to throw off restraint, then is Liberty itself a flawed concept? There is a difference between self restraint and government restraint. The lack of self restraint creates the demand for government restraint. This is compounded by the government liking being able to restrain or not restrain based on whoever is paying the biggest bribe. This is true, you have to have a respectful society. Civics have been deplorable since the 1970's in this country. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 4:01:33 PM EDT
[#49]
fuck no
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Posted: 8/28/2015 4:16:12 PM EDT
[#50]
nope, just needs a good shake and a lot more bourbon.
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