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Posted: 8/27/2015 12:40:20 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ETA: My wife is a from a very rigid sect of Church of Christ. They are good people. Agreed, most of one side of my family is Church of Christ and they are all great people. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 12:40:48 PM EDT
[#2]
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But what about laypeople? I'm assuming a guy with a screenname NavyDoc isn't a member of the clergy. If any member can decide what opinion is theologically correct, the Catholic Church isn't any different than the Church of Christ. And are there any clergy who are speaking out against the Pope and his liberation theology views? (I have no idea if the Pope actually subscribes to that, I'm going on what I've been told by people in this thread and others) I have a feeling the priest who is advising me is going to hate me when I bring all these questions up. 
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This is a very complex question and a source of division among some Catholics. The Pope, while divinely chosen, is not himself divine, and thus, is capable of error. When such arises, as has in the past, members of the clergy can, will, and are obligated to both confront him and to take any necessary actions to realign the doctrine. But what about laypeople? I'm assuming a guy with a screenname NavyDoc isn't a member of the clergy. If any member can decide what opinion is theologically correct, the Catholic Church isn't any different than the Church of Christ. And are there any clergy who are speaking out against the Pope and his liberation theology views? (I have no idea if the Pope actually subscribes to that, I'm going on what I've been told by people in this thread and others) I have a feeling the priest who is advising me is going to hate me when I bring all these questions up.
Catholic only have to listen to the POPE when it comes to faith and morals. He is divinely gifted by GOD in those two areas only. if its not on those topics. ignore him. and his advisors bear no weight at all to anyone. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 12:41:28 PM EDT
[#3]
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Please explain? Do you know the reason for having an Infallible head of the Church? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Former Catholic here. The Vatican is obsolete. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Please explain? Do you know the reason for having an Infallible head of the Church? Is he infallible or do catholics just agree that he is because tradition says so? |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 12:44:54 PM EDT
[#4]
People in 1776 didn't even pay head to the whole "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" stuff. Jefferson was stating the obvious and everyone knew it.
It was hardly seen as some revolutionary philosophical statement about Rights, TJ was just re-phrasing what everyone at the time knew to be true. The DoI was, and still is, a public proclamation (a Press Release if you will) of our secession from the government of Great Britian, as voted on by Congress on July 2 with the passage of Lee's resolution. The only paragraph that mattered at the time to most people was the last one - That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; Unless, I missed something, and we are once again the subjects of British Rule and subjected to the laws of Parliament, I don't see how anyone could claim that it's obsolete? |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 12:44:58 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Catholic only have to listen to the POPE when it comes to faith and morals. He is divinely gifted by GOD in those two areas only. if its not on those topics. ignore him. and his advisors bear no weight at all to anyone. Are you Catholic, because isn't how it was explained to me. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 12:45:04 PM EDT
[#6]
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But what about laypeople? I'm assuming a guy with a screenname NavyDoc isn't a member of the clergy. If any member can decide what opinion is theologically correct, the Catholic Church isn't any different than the Church of Christ. And are there any clergy who are speaking out against the Pope and his liberation theology views? (I have no idea if the Pope actually subscribes to that, I'm going on what I've been told by people in this thread and others) I have a feeling the priest who is advising me is going to hate me when I bring all these questions up.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This is a very complex question and a source of division among some Catholics. The Pope, while divinely chosen, is not himself divine, and thus, is capable of error. When such arises, as has in the past, members of the clergy can, will, and are obligated to both confront him and to take any necessary actions to realign the doctrine. But what about laypeople? I'm assuming a guy with a screenname NavyDoc isn't a member of the clergy. If any member can decide what opinion is theologically correct, the Catholic Church isn't any different than the Church of Christ. And are there any clergy who are speaking out against the Pope and his liberation theology views? (I have no idea if the Pope actually subscribes to that, I'm going on what I've been told by people in this thread and others) I have a feeling the priest who is advising me is going to hate me when I bring all these questions up.
Bring up those questions. It is good to question and have any doubts discussed. In the instance you are referring to, one would continue following the long standing doctrines laid out over the last 2,000 years by the Church until the matter is further resolved by the clergy. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 12:56:45 PM EDT
[#7]
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When will that horrid man die? I want Benedict back. Now. X87 |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 1:04:47 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But what about laypeople? I'm assuming a guy with a screenname NavyDoc isn't a member of the clergy. If any member can decide what opinion is theologically correct, the Catholic Church isn't any different than the Church of Christ. And are there any clergy who are speaking out against the Pope and his liberation theology views? (I have no idea if the Pope actually subscribes to that, I'm going on what I've been told by people in this thread and others) I have a feeling the priest who is advising me is going to hate me when I bring all these questions up.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This is a very complex question and a source of division among some Catholics. The Pope, while divinely chosen, is not himself divine, and thus, is capable of error. When such arises, as has in the past, members of the clergy can, will, and are obligated to both confront him and to take any necessary actions to realign the doctrine. But what about laypeople? I'm assuming a guy with a screenname NavyDoc isn't a member of the clergy. If any member can decide what opinion is theologically correct, the Catholic Church isn't any different than the Church of Christ. And are there any clergy who are speaking out against the Pope and his liberation theology views? (I have no idea if the Pope actually subscribes to that, I'm going on what I've been told by people in this thread and others) I have a feeling the priest who is advising me is going to hate me when I bring all these questions up.
Pope Francis fought against liberation theology in his country. Also, ask your priest about subsidiarity. The Pope is not Communist or Leftist. But so many what to say F-You to the Catholic Church, that they don't even take the time to read. They only accept what the media tells them. So open minded here. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 1:07:15 PM EDT
[#9]
 ..Fook off.....Pot calling the kettle black..or something...
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Posted: 8/27/2015 1:10:38 PM EDT
[#10]
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I'm assuming both of you are Catholics, so I'm going to ask. Doesn't God ensure the Pope is the right person for the job? And that when he speaks from his throne, he is speaking authoritatively for all Catholics? If its possible to have an unworthy man become the Pope, as you are implying happened with the current Pope, how can you be sure any of them were actually speaking with authority? If you dislike part of what he says, is it ok to disregard those parts? I was raised Church of Christ and am going to start RCIA classes very soon and the attitude of Catholics toward this Pope is confusing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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But being critical of the current Pope is not "Catholic hate." Many of us Catholics have disliked the leftward shift of the RCC since Vatican II, especially the liberation theology philosophy. JPII was a great Pope--having spent much of his life under Communism, he was a virulent anti-communist and tempered his messages of compassion with an understanding of free markets and capitalism. Likewise Benedict. Francis, however, has been using language more in line with the left in comparison to JPII and Benedict and has actually embraced liberation theology clergy that JPII castigated. Therein lies the concern that many conservative Catholics have for him. This. I'm assuming both of you are Catholics, so I'm going to ask. Doesn't God ensure the Pope is the right person for the job? And that when he speaks from his throne, he is speaking authoritatively for all Catholics? If its possible to have an unworthy man become the Pope, as you are implying happened with the current Pope, how can you be sure any of them were actually speaking with authority? If you dislike part of what he says, is it ok to disregard those parts? I was raised Church of Christ and am going to start RCIA classes very soon and the attitude of Catholics toward this Pope is confusing. The concept of papal "infallibility" is a convoluted one. Not everything he says is "ex cathedra" and if fact, that concept only applies in a very limited scope to issues of doctrine. when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, Another explaination http://www.catholic.com/tracts/papal-infallibility Thus, when he talks on articles of faith, such as the divinity of Christ, he's talking ex-cathedra. When he's talking politics or economics, he's just another schmuck with an opinion. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 1:10:42 PM EDT
[#11]
He can give me a call when they stop raping children.
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Posted: 8/27/2015 1:12:44 PM EDT
[#12]
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Is he infallible or do catholics just agree that he is because tradition says so? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Former Catholic here. The Vatican is obsolete. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Please explain? Do you know the reason for having an Infallible head of the Church? Is he infallible or do catholics just agree that he is because tradition says so? He is only Infallible when in ex Cathedral. When he is making rulings or dogma. These are not made on a whim or pray. They don't occur very often nor in a vacuum. Without an Infallible Body, you cannot have a continuation of Jesus's Church on earth. People would just make decisions & interpretations about the Bible on a whim & their "feelings". With, concrete rulings, you can build knowledge exponentially. Instead of reinventing the wheel every generation. Kind of like how computers have become so advanced exponentially, my Faith can be built on theologians like St Augustin & other Saints. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 1:30:11 PM EDT
[#13]
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Lol Again, how? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Please, tell me more. What about the Declaration of Independence is at odds with Catholicism? The DoI cuts out the middleman that the Catholics installed. TC Lol Again, how? In part, it lays out that Rights come from God directly to the individual with nothing and no one in between, be it a king or a religious leader. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 1:51:59 PM EDT
[#14]
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In part, it lays out that Rights come from God directly to the individual with nothing and no one in between, be it a king or a religious leader. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Please, tell me more. What about the Declaration of Independence is at odds with Catholicism? The DoI cuts out the middleman that the Catholics installed. TC Lol Again, how? In part, it lays out that Rights come from God directly to the individual with nothing and no one in between, be it a king or a religious leader. That is completely fine for the Catholic Church. Nothing to argue here. So, any more? |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 2:02:04 PM EDT
[#15]
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Since the US government was based on the Magna Charta, which the pope was trying really hard to nullify, this isn't a surprise. And the whole English Revolution thing and resulting English BoRs. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 2:16:29 PM EDT
[#16]
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He is only Infallible when in ex Cathedral. When he is making rulings or dogma. These are not made on a whim or pray. They don't occur very often nor in a vacuum. Without an Infallible Body, you cannot have a continuation of Jesus's Church on earth. People would just make decisions & interpretations about the Bible on a whim & their "feelings". With, concrete rulings, you can build knowledge exponentially. Instead of reinventing the wheel every generation. Kind of like how computers have become so advanced exponentially, my Faith can be built on theologians like St Augustin & other Saints. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Former Catholic here. The Vatican is obsolete. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Please explain? Do you know the reason for having an Infallible head of the Church? Is he infallible or do catholics just agree that he is because tradition says so? He is only Infallible when in ex Cathedral. When he is making rulings or dogma. These are not made on a whim or pray. They don't occur very often nor in a vacuum. Without an Infallible Body, you cannot have a continuation of Jesus's Church on earth. People would just make decisions & interpretations about the Bible on a whim & their "feelings". With, concrete rulings, you can build knowledge exponentially. Instead of reinventing the wheel every generation. Kind of like how computers have become so advanced exponentially, my Faith can be built on theologians like St Augustin & other Saints. Well, as you and others might feel concerning your statement here, I feel that the word of God may have some other things to say about the fallibility of any man, in church, organizational, or any other kind of authority that God has placed over others. And yes it is true, that all people no matter how they have chosen to worship or shepherd, cannot, and will not be able to totally achieve God's perfection nor His righteousness as corrupted human beings in the flesh as the Bible informs us, even in Christ, or, '' in Him," as it is written. no one is exempt according to this process at any time in whatever we might do. Biblically speaking, there are no exceptions to this truth except Christ and the word of God itself. The word of God makes no other claims concerning any other authority. Call me a basher if you will, but I can handle this as a person of some understanding, but do not in any way agree or relish that designation about myself coming from anyone. The Pope, and his following have all been made in God's image, just as the rest of us have. Some of us who are not Catholic, however, are concerned about Catholics and the way that they do some of the things that they have been purported to do, or believe as one might totally believe in themselves in the flesh as being incorruptible concerning anything that we or someone else might do. The Bible commands us all as Christians to judge no man, yet the infallible, eternal word of God judges everything. I earnestly try concerning personal judgment about others, not to engage in this too much in a daily basis now. Hopefully, I will be able to do better as time rolls along but sometimes it is not an easy thing to do even now. Thanks. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 2:21:23 PM EDT
[#17]
So,..... We should all run to the Catholic Church for moral and fiscal guidance?
Not gonna happen !! |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 2:26:26 PM EDT
[#18]
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Well, they can think whatever they like. I can disagree all I want. And I'm not saying that virtue and charity aren't respectable traits. I just don't think that governing documents should require them of people because that detracts from the reason they are respectable while perverting the reason governments exist as a separate entity from religion. Like a founding father... 
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Posted: 8/27/2015 2:42:20 PM EDT
[#19]
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Are you Catholic, because isn't how it was explained to me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Catholic only have to listen to the POPE when it comes to faith and morals. He is divinely gifted by GOD in those two areas only. if its not on those topics. ignore him. and his advisors bear no weight at all to anyone. Are you Catholic, because isn't how it was explained to me. grew up Catholic with 12 years of Catholic school. (public schools were a wreck so...) That's verbatim what I was taught. The Pope only has infallibility regarding faith and Morals anything else meh,,, Taught by the IHM (Immaculate Heart of Mary) nuns. and Augustinian Monks I don't consider myself catholic anymore..Too controlling for me. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 2:47:01 PM EDT
[#20]
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We see an OWS slam on the capitalists and a call to reduce individual liberty for social justice and a call for official policy changes to make up for said "injustice." Hits all the typical leftist talking points and calls for a "global investment." False dichotomy that individual liberty and charity are at odds and that "virtue" is damaged in defense of liberty. Quote HistoryQuoted:
We see an OWS slam on the capitalists and a call to reduce individual liberty for social justice and a call for official policy changes to make up for said "injustice." Yet even as the United States has become more unequal in income and wealth than at any other time in its modern history, libertarians argue that the widening gulf between rich and poor gives no cause for any policy response. In the name of individual rights, the poor are left to suffer and the super-rich are excused from the requirements of virtue and common decency. Hits all the typical leftist talking points and calls for a "global investment." For 20 years I have tried to work up the balance sheet of social justice, so to speak, in order to measure the scale of investments that society needs to make in order to overcome extreme poverty; control epidemic diseases likes AIDS, tuberculosis, malaria and Ebola; and convert our energy systems from climate-changing fossil fuels to safe, low-carbon energy sources like solar, wind, geothermal and hydroelectric power. The paradox that I have found time and again is that for a tiny investment of material goods—perhaps 2 percent to 3 percent per year of our global income—we could mobilize our technological excellence to end the scourges of extreme poverty, disease and environmental degradation that cause great global suffering and that in fact threaten our very survival. Solutions to our global material problems, whether climate change or epidemic control, are within our grasp, but only if we try. We are trapped by an indifference that ironically has been magnified by America’s exaggerated defense of liberty at the expense of virtue. False dichotomy that individual liberty and charity are at odds and that "virtue" is damaged in defense of liberty. Jeffrey Sachs is gonna Jeffrey Sachs. His views are pretty widely established by now. that doesn't mean he said the DoI is obsolete, and that doesn't make him in any way connected to the Pope. The man has, on his CV, that he has advised the Vatican. That's true - from back when JPII wore the funny hat. Sachs is likely the leading global expert on the nexus between economic policy and political and social development. He was one of the key figures in economic and political transition of Eastern Europe after the Cold War, and probably most famous for his Russian "shock therapy" program. This doesn't make him a current advisor or Poland, Russian, or any place else. The author of the OP article goes to great lengths, though, to create a different impression, and the reactions of posters here shows he is successful. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 2:49:34 PM EDT
[#21]
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Please tell me how it us obsolete? You should probably tell me what the country the Vatican is for in the first place before you do that though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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lol at the Vatican calling anything "obsolete". Please tell me how it us obsolete? You should probably tell me what the country the Vatican is for in the first place before you do that though. It's an independent country surrounded by Italy. So totally fucked. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 2:51:01 PM EDT
[#22]
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Am I the only one who finds it telling that the quoted "solutions" to "global problems" NEVER involve limiting of population increase? Of course, I understand that would be contrary to doctrine, infallibly proclaimed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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We see an OWS slam on the capitalists and a call to reduce individual liberty for social justice and a call for official policy changes to make up for said "injustice." Yet even as the United States has become more unequal in income and wealth than at any other time in its modern history, libertarians argue that the widening gulf between rich and poor gives no cause for any policy response. In the name of individual rights, the poor are left to suffer and the super-rich are excused from the requirements of virtue and common decency. Hits all the typical leftist talking points and calls for a "global investment." For 20 years I have tried to work up the balance sheet of social justice, so to speak, in order to measure the scale of investments that society needs to make in order to overcome extreme poverty; control epidemic diseases likes AIDS, tuberculosis, malaria and Ebola; and convert our energy systems from climate-changing fossil fuels to safe, low-carbon energy sources like solar, wind, geothermal and hydroelectric power. The paradox that I have found time and again is that for a tiny investment of material goods—perhaps 2 percent to 3 percent per year of our global income—we could mobilize our technological excellence to end the scourges of extreme poverty, disease and environmental degradation that cause great global suffering and that in fact threaten our very survival. Solutions to our global material problems, whether climate change or epidemic control, are within our grasp, but only if we try. We are trapped by an indifference that ironically has been magnified by America’s exaggerated defense of liberty at the expense of virtue. False dichotomy that individual liberty and charity are at odds and that "virtue" is damaged in defense of liberty. Am I the only one who finds it telling that the quoted "solutions" to "global problems" NEVER involve limiting of population increase? Of course, I understand that would be contrary to doctrine, infallibly proclaimed. Sachs is one of the more famous leading advocates in the world for population control, with an advocacy of birth control and abortion that puts him massively at odds with the Catholic Church. So... not really sure what's "telling" abou that. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 2:54:02 PM EDT
[#23]
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I didn't pay the UN takeover stuff any mind. I disagree with the premise that Charity and "Justice" (what does he mean by that?) are as/more important than individual liberty. As far as "the key to happiness" goes... again, that's like, his opinion, man. And his opinion really doesn't mean anything on this subject (how Americans should pursue happiness) If this isn't an accurate representation of what the Pope said... ok, I guess there's no discussion to be had then. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Eh, is this guy representative of the Vatican's position or is he just expressing his personal opinion? I doubt he's speaking for the pope. Jeffrey Sachs doesn't represent the Vatican, and doesn't work for the Vatican. He's not even Catholic. To top it off, he didn't even say what the thread title and absurd OP-linked article claims he said. But, outrage thread gonna outrage. I didn't pay the UN takeover stuff any mind. I disagree with the premise that Charity and "Justice" (what does he mean by that?) are as/more important than individual liberty. As far as "the key to happiness" goes... again, that's like, his opinion, man. And his opinion really doesn't mean anything on this subject (how Americans should pursue happiness) If this isn't an accurate representation of what the Pope said... ok, I guess there's no discussion to be had then. Virtue is in fact more important than liberty. Liberty's importance, to a large extent, is that it offers the freedom to make the moral choice, to be virtuous; liberty is a means to a higher end, and is not an end unto itself. This is in fact the traditional conservative position. Furthermore, without people being virtuous, liberty cannot survive for long. They are, in a sense, co-dependent, but virtue has primacy. Of course, I doubt his position has much to do with anything traditional or conservative in any sense. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 2:54:31 PM EDT
[#24]
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Ironic that they're specifically one of the bigger reasons that this country was MADE. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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lol, fuck off Ironic that they're specifically one of the bigger reasons that this country was MADE. Not really, no. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 2:57:54 PM EDT
[#25]
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This charity part is a bit disturbing, and can mean so much like 90% taxes Quote HistoryQuoted:
most notably justice and charity LOL, no. Charity is voluntary giving and has nothing to do with taxation whatever the guy who wrote the article might think. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 3:01:58 PM EDT
[#26]
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Jeffrey Sachs is gonna Jeffrey Sachs. His views are pretty widely established by now. that doesn't mean he said the DoI is obsolete, and that doesn't make him in any way connected to the Pope. The man has, on his CV, that he has advised the Vatican. That's true - from back when JPII wore the funny hat. Sachs is likely the leading global expert on the nexus between economic policy and political and social development. He was one of the key figures in economic and political transition of Eastern Europe after the Cold War, and probably most famous for his Russian "shock therapy" program. This doesn't' take him a current advisor or Poland, Russian, or any place else. The author of the OP article goes to great lengths, though, to create a different impression, and the reactions of posters here shows he is successful. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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We see an OWS slam on the capitalists and a call to reduce individual liberty for social justice and a call for official policy changes to make up for said "injustice." Yet even as the United States has become more unequal in income and wealth than at any other time in its modern history, libertarians argue that the widening gulf between rich and poor gives no cause for any policy response. In the name of individual rights, the poor are left to suffer and the super-rich are excused from the requirements of virtue and common decency. Hits all the typical leftist talking points and calls for a "global investment." For 20 years I have tried to work up the balance sheet of social justice, so to speak, in order to measure the scale of investments that society needs to make in order to overcome extreme poverty; control epidemic diseases likes AIDS, tuberculosis, malaria and Ebola; and convert our energy systems from climate-changing fossil fuels to safe, low-carbon energy sources like solar, wind, geothermal and hydroelectric power. The paradox that I have found time and again is that for a tiny investment of material goods—perhaps 2 percent to 3 percent per year of our global income—we could mobilize our technological excellence to end the scourges of extreme poverty, disease and environmental degradation that cause great global suffering and that in fact threaten our very survival. Solutions to our global material problems, whether climate change or epidemic control, are within our grasp, but only if we try. We are trapped by an indifference that ironically has been magnified by America’s exaggerated defense of liberty at the expense of virtue. False dichotomy that individual liberty and charity are at odds and that "virtue" is damaged in defense of liberty. Jeffrey Sachs is gonna Jeffrey Sachs. His views are pretty widely established by now. that doesn't mean he said the DoI is obsolete, and that doesn't make him in any way connected to the Pope. The man has, on his CV, that he has advised the Vatican. That's true - from back when JPII wore the funny hat. Sachs is likely the leading global expert on the nexus between economic policy and political and social development. He was one of the key figures in economic and political transition of Eastern Europe after the Cold War, and probably most famous for his Russian "shock therapy" program. This doesn't' take him a current advisor or Poland, Russian, or any place else. The author of the OP article goes to great lengths, though, to create a different impression, and the reactions of posters here shows he is successful. Well, who allowed him a voice in this Jesuit publication, "America?" The Jesuitseses' ?
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Posted: 8/27/2015 3:06:34 PM EDT
[#27]
Just to be clear, one does not have to believe in Papal infallibility, even ex cathedra to be a Catholic. Nor does one, and this may surprise some people, have to "worship Mary."
The 12 articles of faith: 1. I BELIEVE in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
2. And in Jesu Christ his only Son, our Lord. 3. Which was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary. 4. Suffered under Ponce Pilate, was crucified, dead, buried, and descended into hell. 5. And the third day he rose again from death. 6. He ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty. 7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. 8. I believe in the Holy Ghost. 9. The holy catholic church. 10. The communion of Saints: The forgiveness of sins. 11. The resurrection of the body. 12. And the life everlasting. Amen. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 3:10:09 PM EDT
[#28]
The Vatican needs to stick to religion.
They are not elected officials of this country. While I am at it, Fuck the United Nations Fuck Obama Fuck Hillary Fuck the nosy neighbor down the street. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 3:12:45 PM EDT
[#29]
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Well, who allowed him a voice in this Jesuit publication, "America?" The Jesuitseses' ?
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Jeffrey Sachs is gonna Jeffrey Sachs. His views are pretty widely established by now. that doesn't mean he said the DoI is obsolete, and that doesn't make him in any way connected to the Pope. The man has, on his CV, that he has advised the Vatican. That's true - from back when JPII wore the funny hat. Sachs is likely the leading global expert on the nexus between economic policy and political and social development. He was one of the key figures in economic and political transition of Eastern Europe after the Cold War, and probably most famous for his Russian "shock therapy" program. This doesn't' take him a current advisor or Poland, Russian, or any place else. The author of the OP article goes to great lengths, though, to create a different impression, and the reactions of posters here shows he is successful. Well, who allowed him a voice in this Jesuit publication, "America?" The Jesuitseses' ?
"America" is a pretty wide-open publication, and Jeffrey Sachs is a very major player in the field that many of Francis's recent comments have touched upon. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 3:49:51 PM EDT
[#30]
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The Vati- who? Anyone who remains catholic after hearing these idiots ramble on needs a lobotomy. I'm Catholic (specifically, Ruthinian rite). They aren't. Infalibility on religious matters ends when politics are brought into it. Fuck "Pope" Francis. I may end up Orthodox. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 3:51:19 PM EDT
[#31]
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The Catholic religion actually is at odds with parts of the DoI. You might want to note that it was mainly a group of protestants that founded this great country, if you want to know how well countries founded by Catholics work, look at South America.  Could it be that the pope is hungry for power?
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The United States, Sachs writes in the Jesuit publication, America, is “a society in thrall” to the idea of unalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But the “urgent core of Francis’ message” will be to challenge this “American idea” by “proclaiming that the path to happiness lies not solely or mainly through the defense of rights but through the exercise of virtues, most notably justice and charity.”
In these extraordinary comments, which constitute a frontal assault on the American idea of freedom and national sovereignty, Sachs has made it clear that he hopes to enlist the Vatican in a global campaign to increase the power of global or foreign-dominated organizations and movements. Sachs takes aim at the phrase, which comes from America’s founding document, the United States Declaration of Independence, that: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” These rights sound good, Sachs writes, but they’re not enough to guarantee the outcome the global elites have devised for us. Link Could it be that the pope is hungry for power?
And "Protestants" running it into the ground. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 4:04:41 PM EDT
[#32]
He may be right. But natural inalienable rights have to be preserved first.
If you don't then what you're saying... Some people must surrender their inalienable rights, to other people, who happen to work for government. Who are authorized to use deadly force to make individuals submit. You might as well say... Some animals are more equal then others. Violence and coercion is needed and acceptable. It's okay to kidnap, steal from, and kill people. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 4:08:29 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Jeffrey Sachs doesn't represent the Vatican, and doesn't work for the Vatican. He's not even Catholic. To top it off, he didn't even say what the thread title and absurd OP-linked article claims he said. But, outrage thread gonna outrage. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Eh, is this guy representative of the Vatican's position or is he just expressing his personal opinion? I doubt he's speaking for the pope. Jeffrey Sachs doesn't represent the Vatican, and doesn't work for the Vatican. He's not even Catholic. To top it off, he didn't even say what the thread title and absurd OP-linked article claims he said. But, outrage thread gonna outrage. It figures. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 4:11:27 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Virtue is in fact more important than liberty. Liberty's importance, to a large extent, is that it offers the freedom to make the moral choice, to be virtuous; liberty is a means to a higher end, and is not an end unto itself. This is in fact the traditional conservative position. Furthermore, without people being virtuous, liberty cannot survive for long. They are, in a sense, co-dependent, but virtue has primacy. Of course, I doubt his position has much to do with anything traditional or conservative in any sense. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Eh, is this guy representative of the Vatican's position or is he just expressing his personal opinion? I doubt he's speaking for the pope. Jeffrey Sachs doesn't represent the Vatican, and doesn't work for the Vatican. He's not even Catholic. To top it off, he didn't even say what the thread title and absurd OP-linked article claims he said. But, outrage thread gonna outrage. I didn't pay the UN takeover stuff any mind. I disagree with the premise that Charity and "Justice" (what does he mean by that?) are as/more important than individual liberty. As far as "the key to happiness" goes... again, that's like, his opinion, man. And his opinion really doesn't mean anything on this subject (how Americans should pursue happiness) If this isn't an accurate representation of what the Pope said... ok, I guess there's no discussion to be had then. Virtue is in fact more important than liberty. Liberty's importance, to a large extent, is that it offers the freedom to make the moral choice, to be virtuous; liberty is a means to a higher end, and is not an end unto itself. This is in fact the traditional conservative position. Furthermore, without people being virtuous, liberty cannot survive for long. They are, in a sense, co-dependent, but virtue has primacy. Of course, I doubt his position has much to do with anything traditional or conservative in any sense. The highest virtue I can think of is the virtue of knowing how to leave your neighbor alone. Which is another way of saying "liberty." Print that on a T-shirt and wear it in Washington, DC. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 4:15:23 PM EDT
[#35]
thank you to the Catholics who answered my questions.
interesting discussion |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 4:21:12 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The highest virtue I can think of is the virtue of knowing how to leave your neighbor alone. Which is another way of saying "liberty." Print that on a T-shirt and wear it in Washington, DC. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Eh, is this guy representative of the Vatican's position or is he just expressing his personal opinion? I doubt he's speaking for the pope. Jeffrey Sachs doesn't represent the Vatican, and doesn't work for the Vatican. He's not even Catholic. To top it off, he didn't even say what the thread title and absurd OP-linked article claims he said. But, outrage thread gonna outrage. I didn't pay the UN takeover stuff any mind. I disagree with the premise that Charity and "Justice" (what does he mean by that?) are as/more important than individual liberty. As far as "the key to happiness" goes... again, that's like, his opinion, man. And his opinion really doesn't mean anything on this subject (how Americans should pursue happiness) If this isn't an accurate representation of what the Pope said... ok, I guess there's no discussion to be had then. Virtue is in fact more important than liberty. Liberty's importance, to a large extent, is that it offers the freedom to make the moral choice, to be virtuous; liberty is a means to a higher end, and is not an end unto itself. This is in fact the traditional conservative position. Furthermore, without people being virtuous, liberty cannot survive for long. They are, in a sense, co-dependent, but virtue has primacy. Of course, I doubt his position has much to do with anything traditional or conservative in any sense. The highest virtue I can think of is the virtue of knowing how to leave your neighbor alone. Which is another way of saying "liberty." Print that on a T-shirt and wear it in Washington, DC. That's not really a virtue. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 4:21:40 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Virtue is in fact more important than liberty. Liberty's importance, to a large extent, is that it offers the freedom to make the moral choice, to be virtuous; liberty is a means to a higher end, and is not an end unto itself. This is in fact the traditional conservative position. Furthermore, without people being virtuous, liberty cannot survive for long. They are, in a sense, co-dependent, but virtue has primacy. Of course, I doubt his position has much to do with anything traditional or conservative in any sense. This is my view as well. I also see civic responsibility as one of the highest virtues. It is that virtue which has been eroding for a long while now. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 4:22:39 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's not really a virtue. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Sounds pretty close to me. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 4:24:22 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just to be clear, one does not have to believe in Papal infallibility, even ex cathedra to be a Catholic. Nor does one, and this may surprise some people, have to "worship Mary." The 12 articles of faith: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM Quote HistoryQuoted: Just to be clear, one does not have to believe in Papal infallibility, even ex cathedra to be a Catholic. Nor does one, and this may surprise some people, have to "worship Mary." The 12 articles of faith: 1. I BELIEVE in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. 2. And in Jesu Christ his only Son, our Lord. 3. Which was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary. 4. Suffered under Ponce Pilate, was crucified, dead, buried, and descended into hell. 5. And the third day he rose again from death. 6. He ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty. 7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. 8. I believe in the Holy Ghost. 9. The holy catholic church. 10. The communion of Saints: The forgiveness of sins. 11. The resurrection of the body. 12. And the life everlasting. Amen. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM so you can be a Catholic and believe that abortion is ok, birth control is ok, etc... as long as you believe the above? added this to my list to ask the priest about. I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm honestly curious. Do you consider yourself to be a "cafeteria Catholic"? |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 4:25:01 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And the Catholic church wonders why it keeps losing followers. Well, to be fair, playing "find the bean under the cup" with kiddie-diddling priests, and failing to excommunicate abortion supports in public office may have a little something to do with it too. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 4:28:45 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And the Catholic church wonders why it keeps losing followers. Well, to be fair, playing "find the bean under the cup" with kiddie-diddling priests, and failing to excommunicate abortion supports in public office may have a little something to do with it too. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 4:31:17 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Sounds pretty close to me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That's not really a virtue. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Sounds pretty close to me. But those other people are thinking, saying, and doing things that I don't like. They're not hurting me, but damn it I don't like it. They need to be more virtuous, like me, and we should send men with guns to enforce that virtue. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 4:33:13 PM EDT
[#43]
Justice and charity through forced taxation and redistribution.
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Posted: 8/27/2015 4:44:14 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, to be fair, playing "find the bean under the cup" with kiddie-diddling priests, and failing to excommunicate abortion supports in public office may have a little something to do with it too. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: And the Catholic church wonders why it keeps losing followers. Well, to be fair, playing "find the bean under the cup" with kiddie-diddling priests, and failing to excommunicate abortion supports in public office may have a little something to do with it too. What do you think of Navy Doc's posts I replied to in the post above yours? If what he says is true, you can support abortion and still be a Catholic? Or am I misunderstanding something else. lol |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 4:47:48 PM EDT
[#45]
In other news, the Vatican harbors and protects pedophiles.
Back to you Jane (you ignorant slut). |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 5:10:22 PM EDT
[#46]
Papal Infalability. Only when the Pope, while speaking of faith and morals, speaks ex carthedra (the chair - a cathedral is the church where the teaching chair of the bishop is - so from his office), in union with the Church (so basically is saying what everyone already agrees on) - and states that he using that authority (example = "By the authority of Our Lord Jesus Christ and of the Blessed Apostles
Peter and Paul, and by Our own authority, We declare, pronounce and define the doctrine . . . to be revealed by God and as such to be firmly and immutably held by all the faithful,") .
Popes in general are human like the rest of us and have as many failings or more. The amazing thing is 2000 years of them and the Catholic Church is still around - kind of proof of God's intervention. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 5:16:08 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"America" is a pretty wide-open publication, and Jeffrey Sachs is a very major player in the field that many of Francis's recent comments have touched upon. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Jeffrey Sachs is gonna Jeffrey Sachs. His views are pretty widely established by now. that doesn't mean he said the DoI is obsolete, and that doesn't make him in any way connected to the Pope. The man has, on his CV, that he has advised the Vatican. That's true - from back when JPII wore the funny hat. Sachs is likely the leading global expert on the nexus between economic policy and political and social development. He was one of the key figures in economic and political transition of Eastern Europe after the Cold War, and probably most famous for his Russian "shock therapy" program. This doesn't' take him a current advisor or Poland, Russian, or any place else. The author of the OP article goes to great lengths, though, to create a different impression, and the reactions of posters here shows he is successful. Well, who allowed him a voice in this Jesuit publication, "America?" The Jesuitseses' ?
"America" is a pretty wide-open publication, and Jeffrey Sachs is a very major player in the field that many of Francis's recent comments have touched upon. Here is a Sachs piece. http://jeffsachs.org/2015/07/gileads-greed-that-kills/ Unquenchable greed......that kills. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 5:21:02 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If what he says is true, you can support abortion and still be a Catholic? Or am I misunderstanding something else. lol Grave sins, done knowing they are grave and done with free will separate us from the Lord, which in turn should keep us from presenting ourselves for the sacrament - but does not excommunicate us. Repented sins can be confessed to a Priest (unless his faculties have been removed). Excommunication requires the faculties of the Bishop (or Pope) to remove (but honestly in the US, most Bishops have delegated that faculty (with regards to abortion) to his diocesan Priests. |
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Posted: 8/27/2015 5:37:55 PM EDT
[#49]
Time to review their non tax status being they are now a political shill organization.
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Posted: 8/27/2015 6:01:43 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good point. Although the Church does appear to be critical of libertarianism and its focus on the individual. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: ..................... Frankly, anyone who thinks this guys has any connection to the Pope has lost all credibility in the "worth having a discussion with" category. So many here have built up world views based on so many layers of derp upon derp, often from publications such as that linked in the OP, I fail to see the point. My intended audience is those who actually like to think, as opposed to getting riled up by polemic derp,and calling everyone else idiots. Part of that involves being able to see Jeffrey Sachs is not even a Catholic, let alone some sort of spokesman for the Pope. Good point. Although the Church does appear to be critical of libertarianism and its focus on the individual. If you are a libertarian, you will be hard pressed to find a church where you will be accepted. Only if you are a leftist socialist or a right wing fascist, will you find a church that you can call "home". Which I find ridiculous... because both sides are equally "wrong" on scripture. The leftist Christians think that the economic parts of the bible should be enforced, but the sexual/moral issues shouldn't be. The Right wing Christians think that the sexual/moral issues should be enforced... but not the economic rules. Both sides essentially pick and choose what parts of the bible they think are worthy of enforcing via State law. The only two opposing viewpoints that would be consistent with scripture... would be a Communitarian and the Libertarian. The Communitarian would believe that the government should both redistribute wealth, heavily regulate employee/employer relations, labor... but also regulate sexual morals, "common decency" and social propriety. The Christian Communitarian would argue that The libertarian Christian, on the other hand, would argue that only sins that involve an actual victim of aggression... should be enforced by State law. They would view all the other biblical commandments, not as things that need to be enforced by law... but rather things that we need to worked on as individuals. That economic morality and sexual/social morality are issues of personal responsibility... and not the responsibility of the state to force on people. IF the Christian church were split along those sides, then at least Christians would be interpreting scripture consistently... and not simply picking and choosing the parts of the bible they *WANT* to follow. |
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