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Posted: 8/4/2015 12:18:07 AM EDT
[#1]
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He's a former Sheriff and one of the pro-gun good guys. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Sen Jones is a real class act.  He's a former Sheriff and one of the pro-gun good guys. Being a pro gun sheriff is not an automatic good guy pass. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 12:20:17 AM EDT
[#2]
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The problem is that an arbitrary age doesn't make a lot of sense for anything relating to this discussion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You'd still be punishing an adult because a 14 y/o lied to them. "Mom, I'm going to Cindy's house." "Just be back by 9." No one answered my previous question: Is there an age at which her lying about her age should not be a defense for the man? What if she was 13? 12? 11? 10? I've seen girls all those ages that could easily pass for 18. Currently there is no amount of due diligence that a guy can perform to make sure he has a defense, so what difference does the age of the girl make? That's the question. If the law is changed, as some propose, so that a girl lying about her age is a defense, what age do we use as a cut-off. I think we can all agree that a 2 y/o girl is not going to be mistaken for a 17 y/o girl, so what is the cut-off? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile The problem is that an arbitrary age doesn't make a lot of sense for anything relating to this discussion. You're right. No matter how you set it up to protect people, some people will end up being punished severely and others will squeak by when they shouldn't. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 12:23:20 AM EDT
[#3]
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Nope, due diligence. It is amusing to see so many people defending his actions when they themselves would want his head on a platter if it was their daughter. 
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I can see both sides. If people weren't so quick to jump into bed, it would have likely come out that she was too young. Oh yeah, get a better lawyer next time. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Hooray for morality laws! Nope, due diligence. It is amusing to see so many people defending his actions when they themselves would want his head on a platter if it was their daughter.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Bold assumption given the girls mother said he was innocent. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 12:25:10 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:Yep. Intent or knowledge are irrelevant. You did it; you do the time. Not if you're a senator from Michigan. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 12:31:37 AM EDT
[#5]
Well the obvious solution is common sense background checks for makeup. There's no legitimate purpose for a girl under the age of 18 to wear makeup that makes them appear older.
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Posted: 8/4/2015 12:42:43 AM EDT
[#6]
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That's the question. If the law is changed, as some propose, so that a girl lying about her age is a defense, what age do we use as a cut-off. I think we can all agree that a 2 y/o girl is not going to be mistaken for a 17 y/o girl, so what is the cut-off? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He's a law I'd like to see pass. If a 14 year old goes into a bar or has a fake ID and fucks an adult male, the girl's mother serves the term for statutory rape. You'd still be punishing an adult because a 14 y/o lied to them. "Mom, I'm going to Cindy's house." "Just be back by 9." No one answered my previous question: Is there an age at which her lying about her age should not be a defense for the man? What if she was 13? 12? 11? 10? I've seen girls all those ages that could easily pass for 18. Currently there is no amount of due diligence that a guy can perform to make sure he has a defense, so what difference does the age of the girl make? That's the question. If the law is changed, as some propose, so that a girl lying about her age is a defense, what age do we use as a cut-off. I think we can all agree that a 2 y/o girl is not going to be mistaken for a 17 y/o girl, so what is the cut-off? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Just spit ballin' here ...I'd say the same "reasonableness" standard applied to questionable LE actions OR it would have to be somehow puberty based (i.e. the actual sexual maturity level as determined by a physical exam performed by a doctor).to ever hope to have any hope of legitimacy. Like I pointed out earlier, if the FBI's own forensic anthropologist CANNOT determine the age at their level of education/training what fucking chance does the average schmoe on the street have, especially at 19 yrs. old. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 11:23:03 AM EDT
[#7]
Society has always tried to protect women from sexual predators. It used to do that through marriage. That made it easy to determine who was fuckable. Did she stand with you in the church? Yes = fuck. No = crime. It was also a fairly equal standard in that adultery was wrong for both parties. Now, we've kinda half-adopted the sexual revolution. We did away with marriage as the way to protect women, and instead have instituted a host of new laws - higher age of consent, sexual harassment, etc. to attempt to protect women. The problem is that it has devolved into a vague and amorphous double standard whereby if a woman wants to fuck around she is basically untouchable, even if she lies about her age, etc. But the moment she or someone else decides she was taken advantage of, she or her guardian can cry rape, statutory rape, sexual harassment, etc. and the man is basically guilty until proven innocent regardless of the circumstances.
Basically the whole thing reeks of hypocrisy. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 12:08:46 PM EDT
[#8]
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Society has always tried to protect women from sexual predators. It used to do that through marriage. That made it easy to determine who was fuckable. Did she stand with you in the church? Yes = fuck. No = crime. It was also a fairly equal standard in that adultery was wrong for both parties. Now, we've kinda half-adopted the sexual revolution. We did away with marriage as the way to protect women, and instead have instituted a host of new laws - higher age of consent, sexual harassment, etc. to attempt to protect women. The problem is that it has devolved into a vague and amorphous double standard whereby if a woman wants to fuck around she is basically untouchable, even if she lies about her age, etc. But the moment she or someone else decides she was taken advantage of, she or her guardian can cry rape, statutory rape, sexual harassment, etc. and the man is basically guilty until proven innocent regardless of the circumstances. Basically the whole thing reeks of hypocrisypatriarchy. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 7:19:16 PM EDT
[#9]
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That's the question. If the law is changed, as some propose, so that a girl lying about her age is a defense, what age do we use as a cut-off. I think we can all agree that a 2 y/o girl is not going to be mistaken for a 17 y/o girl, so what is the cut-off? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He's a law I'd like to see pass. If a 14 year old goes into a bar or has a fake ID and fucks an adult male, the girl's mother serves the term for statutory rape. You'd still be punishing an adult because a 14 y/o lied to them. "Mom, I'm going to Cindy's house." "Just be back by 9." No one answered my previous question: Is there an age at which her lying about her age should not be a defense for the man? What if she was 13? 12? 11? 10? I've seen girls all those ages that could easily pass for 18. Currently there is no amount of due diligence that a guy can perform to make sure he has a defense, so what difference does the age of the girl make? That's the question. If the law is changed, as some propose, so that a girl lying about her age is a defense, what age do we use as a cut-off. I think we can all agree that a 2 y/o girl is not going to be mistaken for a 17 y/o girl, so what is the cut-off? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile If the goal is Sharia law, and this is Michigan we're talking about, all we'd have to do is find a picture of Mohammad and his wives. Clearly that cut off is 8. Anyone younger lying to a man for sex and both parties get stoned to death. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 9:15:48 PM EDT
[#10]
And that is why you should never have sex with a girl until after you get married to her.
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Posted: 8/5/2015 11:49:07 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And that is why you should never have sex with a girl until after you get married to her. ....unless she's Asian. You don't want to marry a girl only to find out on your wedding night that having sex with her sounds like stabbing a baby seal. |
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Posted: 8/5/2015 12:05:40 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does this girl look 20? https://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p264/sirsqueeboo/littlelupe_zpsvzzacrxd.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: When you're an adult you have adult responsibilities. One such responsibility is not having sex with children, even if those children want to have sex with you. This is not a difficult concept. Did you know some people misrepresent certain facts about themselves and mislead others in an effort to get what they desire? Yes. They say things like, "What. Ever. I am so totally eighteen," and sometimes they say things like, "I thought she was old enough." Does this girl look 20? https://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p264/sirsqueeboo/littlelupe_zpsvzzacrxd.jpg Did Traci Lords look 15 when she was filming porn and posing for Penthouse? |
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Posted: 8/5/2015 4:31:23 PM EDT
[#13]
That judge seemed to be harshly punishing the kid for what he perceived as sexual immorality, not necessarily breaking the law. I saw the judge bitched about how hookups are common in our culture, and that such behavior was "unacceptable". Sounds to me like the judge is very biased, and can't separate his personal opinions from his job. I hope things go better at the re-sentancing.
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Posted: 8/6/2015 12:47:04 AM EDT
[#14]
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That judge seemed to be harshly punishing the kid for what he perceived as sexual immorality, not necessarily breaking the law. I saw the judge bitched about how hookups are common in our culture, and that such behavior was "unacceptable". Sounds to me like the judge is very biased, and can't separate his personal opinions from his job. I hope things go better at the re-sentancing. That essentially IS the law, or the spirit of its lenience. They're colloquially referred to as Romeo & Juliet laws where "young lovers" who have been dating and are in a committed relationship get a pass but random hit it and quit it scenarios get punished. |
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Posted: 8/6/2015 1:10:28 AM EDT
[#15]
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That essentially IS the law, or the spirit of its lenience. They're colloquially referred to as Romeo & Juliet laws where "young lovers" who have been dating and are in a committed relationship get a pass but random hit it and quit it scenarios get punished. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That judge seemed to be harshly punishing the kid for what he perceived as sexual immorality, not necessarily breaking the law. I saw the judge bitched about how hookups are common in our culture, and that such behavior was "unacceptable". Sounds to me like the judge is very biased, and can't separate his personal opinions from his job. I hope things go better at the re-sentancing. That essentially IS the law, or the spirit of its lenience. They're colloquially referred to as Romeo & Juliet laws where "young lovers" who have been dating and are in a committed relationship get a pass but random hit it and quit it scenarios get punished. Ah, no. That's not the law. The Romeo and Juliet thing is about age difference, not "hookup culture". |
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Posted: 8/6/2015 8:13:19 PM EDT
[#16]
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Ah, no. That's not the law. The Romeo and Juliet thing is about age difference, not "hookup culture". Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That judge seemed to be harshly punishing the kid for what he perceived as sexual immorality, not necessarily breaking the law. I saw the judge bitched about how hookups are common in our culture, and that such behavior was "unacceptable". Sounds to me like the judge is very biased, and can't separate his personal opinions from his job. I hope things go better at the re-sentancing. That essentially IS the law, or the spirit of its lenience. They're colloquially referred to as Romeo & Juliet laws where "young lovers" who have been dating and are in a committed relationship get a pass but random hit it and quit it scenarios get punished. Ah, no. That's not the law. The Romeo and Juliet thing is about age difference, not "hookup culture". It varies state to state. MI doesn't have it explicitly by law, but the area does and he's reflecting that in his opinion. I already linked to this once, but here's Indiana state law. SECTION 45. IC 35-42-4-9
(e) It is a defense to a prosecution under this section if all the following apply: (1) The person is not more than four (4) years older than the victim. (2) The relationship between the person and the victim was a dating relationship or an ongoing personal relationship. Notice the phrase "ongoing personal relationship". The title Romeo & Juliet may only apply to (1), but some laws do reflect "offensive hookup culture." |
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Posted: 8/6/2015 8:40:25 PM EDT
[#17]
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It varies state to state. MI doesn't have it explicitly by law, but the area does and he's reflecting that in his opinion. I already linked to this once, but here's Indiana state law. Notice the phrase "ongoing personal relationship". The title Romeo & Juliet may only apply to (1), but some laws do reflect "offensive hookup culture." Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That judge seemed to be harshly punishing the kid for what he perceived as sexual immorality, not necessarily breaking the law. I saw the judge bitched about how hookups are common in our culture, and that such behavior was "unacceptable". Sounds to me like the judge is very biased, and can't separate his personal opinions from his job. I hope things go better at the re-sentancing. That essentially IS the law, or the spirit of its lenience. They're colloquially referred to as Romeo & Juliet laws where "young lovers" who have been dating and are in a committed relationship get a pass but random hit it and quit it scenarios get punished. Ah, no. That's not the law. The Romeo and Juliet thing is about age difference, not "hookup culture". It varies state to state. MI doesn't have it explicitly by law, but the area does and he's reflecting that in his opinion. I already linked to this once, but here's Indiana state law. SECTION 45. IC 35-42-4-9
(e) It is a defense to a prosecution under this section if all the following apply: (1) The person is not more than four (4) years older than the victim. (2) The relationship between the person and the victim was a dating relationship or an ongoing personal relationship. Notice the phrase "ongoing personal relationship". The title Romeo & Juliet may only apply to (1), but some laws do reflect "offensive hookup culture." Note the phrase "All the following". |
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Posted: 8/6/2015 8:51:50 PM EDT
[#18]
I have known Les for a few years. He's a good dude and he told me all about this in the spring. When he said he was going to bust it nationally I had no idea he would get this far.
This is bullshit, the girl and her mother agree. They screwed up by taking this crooked ass plea deal. |
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Posted: 8/6/2015 11:09:09 PM EDT
[#19]
Yes because when we were teens we always asked for I.D ??
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Posted: 8/7/2015 10:29:08 AM EDT
[#20]
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Yes because when we were teens we always asked for I.D ?? That's not the point. Many of the laws are so fucked up that even if you pick a girl up in an over 21 bar, you have her show you her ID just to be safe, you have sex with her and then she turns out to be under age, you will still be guilty. 
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Posted: 8/7/2015 11:06:02 AM EDT
[#21]
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You'd still be punishing an adult because a 14 y/o lied to them. "Mom, I'm going to Cindy's house." "Just be back by 9." No one answered my previous question: Is there an age at which her lying about her age should not be a defense for the man? What if she was 13? 12? 11? 10? I've seen girls all those ages that could easily pass for 18. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He's a law I'd like to see pass. If a 14 year old goes into a bar or has a fake ID and fucks an adult male, the girl's mother serves the term for statutory rape. You'd still be punishing an adult because a 14 y/o lied to them. "Mom, I'm going to Cindy's house." "Just be back by 9." No one answered my previous question: Is there an age at which her lying about her age should not be a defense for the man? What if she was 13? 12? 11? 10? I've seen girls all those ages that could easily pass for 18. Doesn't matter the age. A woman / girl misrepresenting her age should be an affirmative defense. |
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Posted: 8/7/2015 11:30:19 AM EDT
[#22]
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I worked with a guy at one time who was a sex offender. Assuming he told the truth he was at a party w/ drinking age people and met a woman w/ 2 kids of different ages. Had sex with her and found out the next morning she was 14 IIRC. He got the felony conviction and sex offender for life. That's seriously fucked up. I can believe that. We had a girl graduate from High School here with three kids. Her oldest started school the year after she graduated. |
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Posted: 8/7/2015 11:37:31 AM EDT
[#23]
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I can believe that. We had a girl graduate from High School here with three kids. Her oldest started school the year after she graduated. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I worked with a guy at one time who was a sex offender. Assuming he told the truth he was at a party w/ drinking age people and met a woman w/ 2 kids of different ages. Had sex with her and found out the next morning she was 14 IIRC. He got the felony conviction and sex offender for life. That's seriously fucked up. I can believe that. We had a girl graduate from High School here with three kids. Her oldest started school the year after she graduated. so she had her first child at 5? |
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Posted: 8/7/2015 11:41:18 AM EDT
[#24]
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so she had her first child at 5? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I worked with a guy at one time who was a sex offender. Assuming he told the truth he was at a party w/ drinking age people and met a woman w/ 2 kids of different ages. Had sex with her and found out the next morning she was 14 IIRC. He got the felony conviction and sex offender for life. That's seriously fucked up. I can believe that. We had a girl graduate from High School here with three kids. Her oldest started school the year after she graduated. so she had her first child at 5? Math fail. 18-5=13, not 5. |
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Posted: 8/7/2015 12:15:52 PM EDT
[#25]
At this point I can see no worldly reason for this young man to not hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats.
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Posted: 8/7/2015 2:58:15 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Math fail. 18-5=13, not 5. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I can believe that. We had a girl graduate from High School here with three kids. Her oldest started school the year after she graduated. so she had her first child at 5? Math fail. 18-5=13, not 5. ArfMath |
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Posted: 8/9/2015 9:06:00 PM EDT
[#27]
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At this point I can see no worldly reason for this young man to not hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats. I can. Seems the worm has turned... |
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Posted: 8/9/2015 9:24:38 PM EDT
[#28]
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That's a mistake of fact, he was informed that her age was 17...how in the world is he liable. No mens rea Is statutory rape a general or specific intend crime in Indiana? J- |
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Posted: 8/9/2015 9:32:26 PM EDT
[#29]
"But the judge condemned what he called a culture of "meet, hook-up, have sex, sayonara, totally inappropriate behavior,” according to court documents."
Sounds like the judge is more interested in enforcing his own brand of moral justice than the spirit of the law. |
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Posted: 8/9/2015 9:38:23 PM EDT
[#30]
In Arizona the law expressly and explicitly makes an exception if a reasonable person would have believed the minor was an adult. (Like meeting her in a bar.)
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Posted: 8/9/2015 9:38:50 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ArfMath Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I can believe that. We had a girl graduate from High School here with three kids. Her oldest started school the year after she graduated. so she had her first child at 5? Math fail. 18-5=13, not 5. ArfMath 288 |
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Posted: 8/9/2015 9:49:35 PM EDT
[#32]
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The State presses charges, especially when a minor is involved. There is no discretion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So if the girl and her mother were on his side, then how did the law even get involved in this? But how did this even get out? someone called the police on this. That is the part I am missing in the story |
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Posted: 8/9/2015 10:15:55 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How can you be absolutely sure she is not a child? I think cutting her in half to count her rings is illegal. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: When you're an adult you have adult responsibilities. One such responsibility is not having sex with children, even if those children want to have sex with you. This is not a difficult concept. How can you be absolutely sure she is not a child? I think cutting her in half to count her rings is illegal. |
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Posted: 8/9/2015 10:17:51 PM EDT
[#34]
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That's bullshit. I've represented guys in similar situations Just out of curiosity, about what does it cost the defendant to beat that charge? |
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Posted: 8/9/2015 10:29:16 PM EDT
[#35]
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I think the guy in this case was screwed by the law, just getting that out of the way. I'm no prude, but I figure you can significantly reduce your chances of getting caught up in this sort of thing by not jumping into bed with strangers at a moment's notice. Part of being an adult is being able to say "no" to gratification every once in a while. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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When you're an adult you have adult responsibilities. One such responsibility is not having sex with children, even if those children want to have sex with you. This is not a difficult concept. How can you be absolutely sure she is not a child? I think cutting her in half to count her rings is illegal. I completely agree. From a philosophical perspective, the judge is right in what he said -- there's just no basis in law for him to sentence based on that. |
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Posted: 8/9/2015 11:09:45 PM EDT
[#36]
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In Arizona the law expressly and explicitly makes an exception if a reasonable person would have believed the minor was an adult. (Like meeting her in a bar.) Really? Whew 
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Posted: 8/9/2015 11:34:23 PM EDT
[#37]
Something like this happened to a friend of mine. I feel very badly for him.
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Posted: 8/10/2015 11:00:31 AM EDT
[#38]
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Did Traci Lords look 15 when she was filming porn and posing for Penthouse? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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When you're an adult you have adult responsibilities. One such responsibility is not having sex with children, even if those children want to have sex with you. This is not a difficult concept. Did you know some people misrepresent certain facts about themselves and mislead others in an effort to get what they desire? Yes. They say things like, "What. Ever. I am so totally eighteen," and sometimes they say things like, "I thought she was old enough." Does this girl look 20? https://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p264/sirsqueeboo/littlelupe_zpsvzzacrxd.jpg Did Traci Lords look 15 when she was filming porn and posing for Penthouse? Exactly. A lot of people in this thread have watched child porn. |
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Posted: 8/10/2015 11:46:16 AM EDT
[#39]
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That's some bullshit. |
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