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Posted: 8/3/2015 8:38:21 AM EDT
[#1]
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I did 3 round groups to test loads. Tightest loads were then made in quantities of 5-10. I've only taken the rifle out 2x. I dont get to go every day like GD. Why shoot 10 round groups if the first 3 aren't grouping? Match ammo is expensive. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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3 round groups.  I did 3 round groups to test loads. Tightest loads were then made in quantities of 5-10. I've only taken the rifle out 2x. I dont get to go every day like GD. Why shoot 10 round groups if the first 3 aren't grouping? Match ammo is expensive. One word: statistics. A 10 round group provides a much better sample population than a 3 round group. I'm willing to bet if you shot a few 10 round groups you'd see better repeatability in your accuracy. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 8:02:29 PM EDT
[#2]
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I'm one of those guys. No cleaning until accuracy degrades. I'm still interested in knowing how many rounds the rifle has seen. 150-200. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 8:04:51 PM EDT
[#3]
The 'solution' to your problem is to STOP shooting 3 shot groups.
You do NOT have a 1/4 inch gun. You never DID have a quarter inch gun. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 8:06:20 PM EDT
[#4]
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I shoot good enough. <a href="http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rabidus_/media/Appleseed12_2013_zps6392c568.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c311/rabidus_/Appleseed12_2013_zps6392c568.jpg</a> Sorry, but that's not that good. I never shot anything but 5s on dog targets at an actual 200M rapid fire, and that's with an M16 that has a crappy trigger and longer lock time than the typical .22 used at an Appleseed. If you can't get all 5s on that target, I wouldn't expect you to shoot sub-MOA groups consistently. As other people have tried to explain in this thread, the AR has a longer lock time and requires perfect form with good follow-through. Practice dry firing, then try again. Good enough to score rifleman and be in the top 95% of all who attend. I'll take it. It's just an Appleseed, and that means precisely jack shit. Like I said, those should all be 5s; it's not that difficult. If you think that target is impressive, sign up for a high-power match. You will be greatly humbled, and also learn a lot. Most high-power shooters are very helpful to new guys. Look, we are trying to help you here, and you don't seem to be listening. Judging from everything you have told us, and judging from the unimpressive results in that picture, the problem is with the shooter, not the rifle. Dry fire at least 500 times, focusing on that follow-through, then try shooting some groups again. It means a lot to the general public with no formal training, in the precision shooting field yes not that great. Considering 95% of those who attend an Appleseed don't earn a patch is good to me. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 8:08:47 PM EDT
[#5]
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You have a1 moa gun with a barrel that's 1 moa. What's the problem again? The barrel is guaranteed sub MOA. $325 for an MOA rifle. $435 for an Ultramatch barrel. If this was the $315 barrel, that's fine but I paid extra for tighter groups than MOA. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 8:11:17 PM EDT
[#6]
Expecting sub MOA performance from a home DIY AR in .308 is unrealistic. You are currently getting exceptional accuracy, especially since nothing is bedded, and the scope is made in China.
Shooting the big bore gas guns is a lot different that the AR15. Your trigger can make enough difference in accuracy since hammer mass will move the gun off target slightly if you have a large hammer. Your upper needs to be squared, and the barrel bedded, along with the gas block if you want top accuracy potential, but your shooting technique needs to be different with these guns. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 8:15:24 PM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 8/4/2015 8:22:38 PM EDT
[#8]
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It's just an Appleseed, and that means precisely jack shit. Like I said, those should all be 5s; it's not that difficult. If you think that target is impressive, sign up for a high-power match. You will be greatly humbled, and also learn a lot. Most high-power shooters are very helpful to new guys. Look, we are trying to help you here, and you don't seem to be listening. Judging from everything you have told us, and judging from the unimpressive results in that picture, the problem is with the shooter, not the rifle. Dry fire at least 500 times, focusing on that follow-through, then try shooting some groups again. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I shoot good enough. <a href="http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rabidus_/media/Appleseed12_2013_zps6392c568.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c311/rabidus_/Appleseed12_2013_zps6392c568.jpg</a> Sorry, but that's not that good. I never shot anything but 5s on dog targets at an actual 200M rapid fire, and that's with an M16 that has a crappy trigger and longer lock time than the typical .22 used at an Appleseed. If you can't get all 5s on that target, I wouldn't expect you to shoot sub-MOA groups consistently. As other people have tried to explain in this thread, the AR has a longer lock time and requires perfect form with good follow-through. Practice dry firing, then try again. Good enough to score rifleman and be in the top 95% of all who attend. I'll take it. I was thinking this exactly. OP doesn't seem to want to hear that it is mostly likely shooter related and not the rifle. Shooting .22 at Appleseed is does not mean you will be great with every rifle you shoot. Hell I shot NCAA and Olympic class Air Rifle and Small Bore competitions and I cannot shoot my .308 anything like I did my rifles in those competitions. Try listening to people in this thread and not just what you want to hear. Obviously you wanted help but are un-willing to take the help. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 8:41:31 PM EDT
[#9]
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The 'solution' to your problem is to STOP shooting 3 shot groups. You do NOT have a 1/4 inch gun. You never DID have a quarter inch gun. Got it. I just wanted a gun under 1" @ 100 yards. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 8:45:09 PM EDT
[#10]
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I was thinking this exactly. OP doesn't seem to want to hear that it is mostly likely shooter related and not the rifle. Shooting .22 at Appleseed is does not mean you will be great with every rifle you shoot. Hell I shot NCAA and Olympic class Air Rifle and Small Bore competitions and I cannot shoot my .308 anything like I did my rifles in those competitions. Try listening to people in this thread and not just what you want to hear. Obviously you wanted help but are un-willing to take the help. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I shoot good enough. <a href="http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rabidus_/media/Appleseed12_2013_zps6392c568.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c311/rabidus_/Appleseed12_2013_zps6392c568.jpg</a> Sorry, but that's not that good. I never shot anything but 5s on dog targets at an actual 200M rapid fire, and that's with an M16 that has a crappy trigger and longer lock time than the typical .22 used at an Appleseed. If you can't get all 5s on that target, I wouldn't expect you to shoot sub-MOA groups consistently. As other people have tried to explain in this thread, the AR has a longer lock time and requires perfect form with good follow-through. Practice dry firing, then try again. Good enough to score rifleman and be in the top 95% of all who attend. I'll take it. I was thinking this exactly. OP doesn't seem to want to hear that it is mostly likely shooter related and not the rifle. Shooting .22 at Appleseed is does not mean you will be great with every rifle you shoot. Hell I shot NCAA and Olympic class Air Rifle and Small Bore competitions and I cannot shoot my .308 anything like I did my rifles in those competitions. Try listening to people in this thread and not just what you want to hear. Obviously you wanted help but are un-willing to take the help. I guess you missed th part where I had 2 other people shoot the rifle. One is employed with ATK, former competition shooter and tests rifle platforms. I didn't pick two dummies off the street. 3 people are getting > MOA. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 8:46:39 PM EDT
[#11]
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Expecting sub MOA performance from a home DIY AR in .308 is unrealistic. You are currently getting exceptional accuracy, especially since nothing is bedded, and the scope is made in China. Shooting the big bore gas guns is a lot different that the AR15. Your trigger can make enough difference in accuracy since hammer mass will move the gun off target slightly if you have a large hammer. Your upper needs to be squared, and the barrel bedded, along with the gas block if you want top accuracy potential, but your shooting technique needs to be different with these guns. Thanks. Serious question, how do you bed an AR-308 and square the upper? |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 8:48:15 PM EDT
[#12]
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I had a Savage 10 fcp-sr that shot sub MOA all day everyday day. 110gr, 155gr, 168 and 175gr bullets grouped great. Sold it for a semi auto .308. This is what I get. 
Don't buy cheap. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 8:49:37 PM EDT
[#13]
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Don't buy cheap. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I had a Savage 10 fcp-sr that shot sub MOA all day everyday day. 110gr, 155gr, 168 and 175gr bullets grouped great. Sold it for a semi auto .308. This is what I get.
Don't buy cheap. Other than my scope, what's cheap on my 308? |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 8:50:19 PM EDT
[#14]
Very few people know how to shoot an AR10. They are unruly beasts with a will of their own.
With no accurizing techniques used in your build other than float and one of the worst 2-stage triggers on the market, your expectations should not be that high. Sub-MOA with a DIY AR10 and no accuracy work will not result in a sub MOA rifle all the time, especially in the hands of shooters who are used to shooting bolt guns. I've been dealing with AR10's, SR25's, LR-308's, LR-260's, and custom AR10's for about 13 years now, shooting them regularly, to include competing with them internationally. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 8:54:08 PM EDT
[#15]
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Thanks. Serious question, how do you bed an AR-308 and square the upper? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Expecting sub MOA performance from a home DIY AR in .308 is unrealistic. You are currently getting exceptional accuracy, especially since nothing is bedded, and the scope is made in China. Shooting the big bore gas guns is a lot different that the AR15. Your trigger can make enough difference in accuracy since hammer mass will move the gun off target slightly if you have a large hammer. Your upper needs to be squared, and the barrel bedded, along with the gas block if you want top accuracy potential, but your shooting technique needs to be different with these guns. Thanks. Serious question, how do you bed an AR-308 and square the upper? You need a lapping tool for the upper, or a skilled machinist who knows what he's doing. After that, you can bed the barrel with a number of adhesive compounds commonly used in aerospace and gunsmithing. The idea is to unitize the barrel with the upper. It also helps to have the bolt face squared, ejector radiused, extractor lips tuned, lugs lapped, holes de-edged, feed ramps de-edged and polished, etc. Custom shop work basically. Before doing that, you need to determine that your chamber was cut correctly, and find ogive profiles and seating depths that are optimal for your throat. Put a Geissele in it and toss the RRA or put it on the EE. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 8:54:42 PM EDT
[#16]
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Trigger can and will be upgraded later. This is my 2nd RRA. For how infrequently I shoot, it'll last me a couple years, by then I'll have enough cash to upgrade. Same with scope. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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what trigger do you have in it? Rock River Arms 2 stage trigger. I know it's not a geissele but I had to draw a limit somewhere. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? YOU SPENT ALL THAT MONEY ON BUILDING THIS GUN AND DECIDED THE TRIGGER WAS WHERE YOU GOT CHEAP 
I'm building the same gun with a different barrel, I know what it cost to build it. Trigger can and will be upgraded later. This is my 2nd RRA. For how infrequently I shoot, it'll last me a couple years, by then I'll have enough cash to upgrade. Same with scope. so you have a good rifle with admittedly shit trigger and shit scope. The Barrel is the heart of the rifle. THe trigger is the soul of the rifle. The scope (properly torqued at the mount and in the rings) is the brain of the rifle. Do NOT cheap out on any of these 3. Your barrel sounds good, so replace your trigger and scope AND properly mount the scope, even if it means spending $50 for a F.A.T. wrench at Brownells to torque to proper specs. "AS tight as you can go" is NOT the proper mounting technique for the scope rings or scope base mount. If you have a 1:10 twist, try Black Hills 175gr ammo. I have two bolt guns in 308, 1:10 twist, and they fucking LOVE 175gr ammo from Triad Tactical. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 9:00:09 PM EDT
[#17]
I also agree and practice the balanced torque approach to optics mounting, with solid scopes (not made in China that can't take semi auto abuse).
A semi-auto, especially the AR10, is very hard on optics. The initial recoil is what most decent scopes are built to handle. The secondary and tertiary recoil effects from reciprocating masses are what beat the crap out of optics, and the mass of the AR10 BCG does a number on scope internals during the return stroke when going into battery. Your rifle actually seems to exhibit exceptional accuracy potential from what I'm seeing so far. If you spend the money dialing it in with accurizing techniques, a robust scope, balance torque, and as important, proper AR10 technique, your groups will shrink. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 9:03:19 PM EDT
[#18]
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Very few people know how to shoot an AR10. They are unruly beasts with a will of their own. HEY! I am not a beast! Cranky and opinionated but it doesn't make me a bad person! |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 9:30:19 PM EDT
[#19]
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HEY! I am not a beast! Cranky and opinionated but it doesn't make me a bad person! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Very few people know how to shoot an AR10. They are unruly beasts with a will of their own. HEY! I am not a beast! Cranky and opinionated but it doesn't make me a bad person! I'm just re-reading your article on improving Army Marksmanship. |
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Posted: 8/22/2015 3:39:40 PM EDT
[#20]
Got a new barrel. Rainier Arms rocks!!! My expectations and my actual shooting are mixed up. I need more trigger time and a better trigger.
I'll probably put a ta-11j acog on it and all it good no point in a 20x zoom scope of the gun will not shoot sub MOA but more than accurate enough for minute of man out to 700m. Would an adjustable gas block not beat the crap out of my brass? I can't get more than 2 reloadings out of my Lapua brass. Thanks for the humbling experience GD. |
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