User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 2:39:08 PM EDT
Here is my rifle:
.308 caliber Rainier Arms Ultramatch 20" barrel. Aero M5 upper/lower AIM surplus nitride BCG Magpul UBR stock RRA 2 stage trigger 14" Fortis SWITCH rail (free floating) Slash's buffer and spring Primary Arms 4-14x ACSS 30mm scope I'm getting some great groups then groupings go to shit. In the pics, you will see a nice 3 shot .25 MOA grouping, then the gun jumps to 3/4 to 1 MOA. I used Federal Gold Medal Match in 175 and 168gr. Scope is locked in solid. Bolt headspace a with the barrel. What's going on? 
I was having this weird problem happen. I'd get a nice group then another group of the same ammo would fly around. I had my Marine friend shoot it and he had the same problem. He would get a nice group then the next group would go to shit. He made fun of me and said it was probably me shooting poorly, but he got the same results after he shot it. 
Could it be the scope? It's the weakest link. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 2:43:56 PM EDT
[#1]
Castle nut is probably on backwards.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 2:48:44 PM EDT
[#2]
How is it mounted?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 2:51:40 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Castle nut is probably on backwards. He's a competent gunsmith! |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 2:58:20 PM EDT
[#4]
Assuming there is no operator error, the system is only as strong as the weakest link.
There's not enough information to determine your problem over the internet. How long a distance are these groups shot? 3 shots really don't make a group. I'm going to go out on a limb, and say you don't have a .25MOA gun, that would be pretty special if it was. .75 to 1 MOA is more likely the best you're going to do especially shooting factory loads. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 2:58:52 PM EDT
[#5]
Load data???
Edit; saw it. Try something else, check results. I am assuming every thing on rifle is tight (like the scope base). |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 2:59:35 PM EDT
[#6]
firing prone, or seated off a bench?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 3:00:08 PM EDT
[#7]
3 round groups.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 3:00:45 PM EDT
[#8]
Srsly tho, OP;
Which groups were done with what ammo, and what was the distance shot at? Simply changing ammo can open or shrink groups. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 3:02:26 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
3 round groups. All day long! |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 3:04:02 PM EDT
[#10]
Measuring is hard.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 3:05:23 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Measuring is hard. Apparently sticking around for your own troubleshooting thread is too. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 3:07:21 PM EDT
[#12]
Stock.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 3:07:54 PM EDT
[#13]
You live in CA. That's the problem.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 3:08:27 PM EDT
[#14]
Probably need to tighten your bullet button
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 3:10:45 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He's a competent gunsmith! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Castle nut is probably on backwards. He's a competent gunsmith! |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 3:12:40 PM EDT
[#16]
 Edit: Definately not mine, but to compare. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 3:13:35 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Castle nut is probably on backwards. PASS! |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 3:14:28 PM EDT
[#18]
Your groups are bad and you should feel bad.
Your photographs are worse and they make everyone else feel bad. I'm seeing what might be a 12 shot group (?) and two 6 shot groups with funny circles around them? Print off the 1 MOA all day target, shoot that and get back to us... K, thanks 
Edit: see N1Rampage's post for a great example of what to do. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 3:19:21 PM EDT
[#19]
You could try pulling some random bullets in your FGGM lot and measuring them along with the powder to see if it's throwing you off. Are your groups opening up after the barrel warms up, or is the problem intermittent?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 3:19:43 PM EDT
[#20]
You have a 1MOA gun. 1MOA guns throw sub MOA 3 round groups very often.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 3:26:21 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You have a 1MOA gun. 1MOA guns throw sub MOA 3 round groups very often. end of thread. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 4:05:48 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Srsly tho, OP; Which groups were done with what ammo, and what was the distance shot at? Simply changing ammo can open or shrink groups. 100 yards. Problem is, this is my 2nd barrel. First barrel shot the FGMM even worse. What are the odds of 2 back to back bad barrels? |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 4:08:10 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You have a 1MOA gun. 1MOA guns throw sub MOA 3 round groups very often. Send the barrel back then? It guarantees sub MOA. But again, this is my 2nd barrel. First barrel did not even group. Can the bolt be an issue or is it moot since the cartridge seats in the chamber? |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 4:13:27 PM EDT
[#24]
OI also did some ammo testing. Only 1 group of 3 shot sub MOA.
I loaded up that. Best 3 round group and shot a 5 round string. Did poorly. My loads were: Lapua brass sorted by weight Berger 175 GD tactical OTM sorted by weight Varget powder. CCI BR-2 primers. Set to 2.803" COL Powder charges were 42gr, 42.3gr, 42.6gr, 42.9gr, 43.2gr, 43.5gr, 43.8gr, 44gr and 44.2gr. Only 1 of the groups shot sub MOA. 3 shot. All others were all over the place. Gun was cast iron front rest and sandbag rear rest. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 4:18:58 PM EDT
[#25]
Take your time, shoot at 100 yards, try several different brands of ammunition, varying weights and shoot 5 groups of 5 rounds or more and you will have a more accurate representation of what your rifle and you as a shooter are capable of.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 4:21:29 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryI did that with a set of loads starting at 42 gr Varget to 44.1gr in .3 GD increments. Lapua brass sorted by weight and bullets sorted by weight. All 3 shot groups shot 1.5-2.5 MOA. Only 1 group of 3 shot sub MOA. Reloaded 7 rounds of the tightest group and it shot 1.5 MOA. Can there be any other factor leading to the guns inaccuracy besides the barrel? I had a Marine friend shoot it and he too got varied groupings. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 4:24:41 PM EDT
[#27]
I had a Savage 10 fcp-sr that shot sub MOA all day everyday day. 110gr, 155gr, 168 and 175gr bullets grouped great.
Sold it for a semi auto .308. This is what I get.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 4:25:50 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Send the barrel back then? It guarantees sub MOA. But again, this is my 2nd barrel. First barrel did not even group. Can the bolt be an issue or is it moot since the cartridge seats in the chamber? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You have a 1MOA gun. 1MOA guns throw sub MOA 3 round groups very often. Send the barrel back then? It guarantees sub MOA. But again, this is my 2nd barrel. First barrel did not even group. Can the bolt be an issue or is it moot since the cartridge seats in the chamber? |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 4:28:59 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I did that with a set of loads starting at 42 gr Varget to 44.1gr in .3 GD increments. Lapua brass sorted by weight and bullets sorted by weight. All 3 shot groups shot 1.5-2.5 MOA. Only 1 group of 3 shot sub MOA. Reloaded 7 rounds of the tightest group and it shot 1.5 MOA. Can there be any other factor leading to the guns inaccuracy besides the barrel? I had a Marine friend shoot it and he too got varied groupings. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I did that with a set of loads starting at 42 gr Varget to 44.1gr in .3 GD increments. Lapua brass sorted by weight and bullets sorted by weight. All 3 shot groups shot 1.5-2.5 MOA. Only 1 group of 3 shot sub MOA. Reloaded 7 rounds of the tightest group and it shot 1.5 MOA. Can there be any other factor leading to the guns inaccuracy besides the barrel? I had a Marine friend shoot it and he too got varied groupings. How much time do you have behind a big AR? |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 4:30:38 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Keep it. There's no practical difference between 1MOA and 0.5MOA at the ranges you shoot a .308. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You have a 1MOA gun. 1MOA guns throw sub MOA 3 round groups very often. Send the barrel back then? It guarantees sub MOA. But again, this is my 2nd barrel. First barrel did not even group. Can the bolt be an issue or is it moot since the cartridge seats in the chamber? It is a $430 Ultramatch barrel cerakoted costing me $500+. I shoot out to 700 yards and eventually wanted to shoot out to 1,000. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 4:31:40 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How much time do you have behind a big AR? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I did that with a set of loads starting at 42 gr Varget to 44.1gr in .3 GD increments. Lapua brass sorted by weight and bullets sorted by weight. All 3 shot groups shot 1.5-2.5 MOA. Only 1 group of 3 shot sub MOA. Reloaded 7 rounds of the tightest group and it shot 1.5 MOA. Can there be any other factor leading to the guns inaccuracy besides the barrel? I had a Marine friend shoot it and he too got varied groupings. How much time do you have behind a big AR? My first big AR. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 4:32:23 PM EDT
[#32]
buy a different barrel, you seem to have identified the problem, stop looking for other things to blame
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 4:38:08 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My first big AR. Ah, kinda figured. 
They are completely and utterly unforgiving of poor technique. Your fundamentals must be 100% dialed in when shooting them, especially if it's a lighter version like this one. I don't believe there's anything particularly wrong with the gun, it's just how they are. They shoot very well, but the learning curve is steep. I would suggest a lot of dry firing. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 4:46:16 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ah, kinda figured.
They are completely and utterly unforgiving of poor technique. Your fundamentals must be 100% dialed in when shooting them, especially if it's a lighter version like this one. I don't believe there's anything particularly wrong with the gun, it's just how they are. They shoot very well, but the learning curve is steep. I would suggest a lot of dry firing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My first big AR. Ah, kinda figured.
They are completely and utterly unforgiving of poor technique. Your fundamentals must be 100% dialed in when shooting them, especially if it's a lighter version like this one. I don't believe there's anything particularly wrong with the gun, it's just how they are. They shoot very well, but the learning curve is steep. I would suggest a lot of dry firing. I had a bolt action that shot great. It had higher recoil, this AR purrs when I shoot it. But it groups like crap. I also had an m1a socom. We will not talk about groupings with that thing. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 4:58:45 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 3 round groups. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 5:01:38 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had a bolt action that shot great. It had higher recoil, this AR purrs when I shoot it. But it groups like crap. I also had an m1a socom. We will not talk about groupings with that thing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
My first big AR. Ah, kinda figured.
They are completely and utterly unforgiving of poor technique. Your fundamentals must be 100% dialed in when shooting them, especially if it's a lighter version like this one. I don't believe there's anything particularly wrong with the gun, it's just how they are. They shoot very well, but the learning curve is steep. I would suggest a lot of dry firing. I had a bolt action that shot great. It had higher recoil, this AR purrs when I shoot it. But it groups like crap. I also had an m1a socom. We will not talk about groupings with that thing. Well, sounds like you know more about it than I do. Carry on. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 5:37:43 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
3 round groups. I did 3 round groups to test loads. Tightest loads were then made in quantities of 5-10. I've only taken the rifle out 2x. I dont get to go every day like GD. Why shoot 10 round groups if the first 3 aren't grouping? Match ammo is expensive. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 5:40:20 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, sounds like you know more about it than I do. Carry on. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
My first big AR. Ah, kinda figured.
They are completely and utterly unforgiving of poor technique. Your fundamentals must be 100% dialed in when shooting them, especially if it's a lighter version like this one. I don't believe there's anything particularly wrong with the gun, it's just how they are. They shoot very well, but the learning curve is steep. I would suggest a lot of dry firing. I had a bolt action that shot great. It had higher recoil, this AR purrs when I shoot it. But it groups like crap. I also had an m1a socom. We will not talk about groupings with that thing. Well, sounds like you know more about it than I do. Carry on. ? Not saying you are wrong. It's just how can a .308 AR platform be harder than a bolt action? Serious question. The gas system absorbs more felt recoil. 9.5lb rifle. Weights as much as a m1 garand shooting a slightly less recoiling round. Am I missing something here? |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 5:44:09 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
? Not saying you are wrong. It's just how can a .308 AR platform be harder than a bolt action? Serious question. The gas system absorbs more felt recoil. 9.5lb rifle. Weights as much as a m1 garand shooting a slightly less recoiling round. Am I missing something here? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
My first big AR. Ah, kinda figured.
They are completely and utterly unforgiving of poor technique. Your fundamentals must be 100% dialed in when shooting them, especially if it's a lighter version like this one. I don't believe there's anything particularly wrong with the gun, it's just how they are. They shoot very well, but the learning curve is steep. I would suggest a lot of dry firing. I had a bolt action that shot great. It had higher recoil, this AR purrs when I shoot it. But it groups like crap. I also had an m1a socom. We will not talk about groupings with that thing. Well, sounds like you know more about it than I do. Carry on. ? Not saying you are wrong. It's just how can a .308 AR platform be harder than a bolt action? Serious question. The gas system absorbs more felt recoil. 9.5lb rifle. Weights as much as a m1 garand shooting a slightly less recoiling round. Am I missing something here? Yes, yes you are. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 5:49:16 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ah, kinda figured.
They are completely and utterly unforgiving of poor technique. Your fundamentals must be 100% dialed in when shooting them, especially if it's a lighter version like this one. I don't believe there's anything particularly wrong with the gun, it's just how they are. They shoot very well, but the learning curve is steep. I would suggest a lot of dry firing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My first big AR. Ah, kinda figured.
They are completely and utterly unforgiving of poor technique. Your fundamentals must be 100% dialed in when shooting them, especially if it's a lighter version like this one. I don't believe there's anything particularly wrong with the gun, it's just how they are. They shoot very well, but the learning curve is steep. I would suggest a lot of dry firing. This |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 5:52:43 PM EDT
[#41]
Try different glass for the hell of it. Or a different mount.
See if you can find a Leupold Mk4 to try on it. I have 2 on 2 of my .50s and love them. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 5:55:57 PM EDT
[#42]
So you have a 1MOA rifle, and that's a problem?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 6:00:15 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So you have a 1MOA rifle, and that's a problem? Barrel I purchased guarantees sub MOA. It's an Ultramatch barrel. Nothing ultra or matchy about it. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 6:00:18 PM EDT
[#44]
Tag
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 6:02:18 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Try different glass for the hell of it. Or a different mount. See if you can find a Leupold Mk4 to try on it. I have 2 on 2 of my .50s and love them. I have a redfield 3-9 that's reliable. I'll try it to eliminate a variable. Thanks. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 6:04:20 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Barrel I purchased guarantees sub MOA. It's an Ultramatch barrel. Nothing ultra or matchy about it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So you have a 1MOA rifle, and that's a problem? Barrel I purchased guarantees sub MOA. It's an Ultramatch barrel. Nothing ultra or matchy about it. The rifle has shown that it's capable of it, the shooter is the weak link in the equation. It's easy to buy a sub-minute rifle, it's not easy to be a sub-minute shooter. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 6:10:48 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ? Not saying you are wrong. It's just how can a .308 AR platform be harder than a bolt action? Serious question. The gas system absorbs more felt recoil. 9.5lb rifle. Weights as much as a m1 garand shooting a slightly less recoiling round. Am I missing something here? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My first big AR. Ah, kinda figured. They are completely and utterly unforgiving of poor technique. Your fundamentals must be 100% dialed in when shooting them, especially if it's a lighter version like this one. I don't believe there's anything particularly wrong with the gun, it's just how they are. They shoot very well, but the learning curve is steep. I would suggest a lot of dry firing. I had a bolt action that shot great. It had higher recoil, this AR purrs when I shoot it. But it groups like crap. I also had an m1a socom. We will not talk about groupings with that thing. Well, sounds like you know more about it than I do. Carry on. ? Not saying you are wrong. It's just how can a .308 AR platform be harder than a bolt action? Serious question. The gas system absorbs more felt recoil. 9.5lb rifle. Weights as much as a m1 garand shooting a slightly less recoiling round. Am I missing something here? I haven't even been a member that long but when ZRM posts about long range shooting, I read carefully. There is a precision rifle forum as well that you would do well to read through carefully. A gas gun does have softer recoil than a bolt gun. But it has certain characteristics that make them slightly trickier to shoot. But I am not fully educated enough on them to really go into detail. Recoil impulse is different. But most importantly is the lock time. The hammer in the AR takes longer to strike the firing pin than the striker in a bolt action does. That's why follow through is critical. You might not believe it, but it's easy to move the barrel off target before the bullet has left the muzzle. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 6:11:29 PM EDT
[#48]
Is it always the first cold bore groups that are best? Do they start to open up the more groups you shoot?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 6:13:14 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a redfield 3-9 that's reliable. I'll try it to eliminate a variable. Thanks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Try different glass for the hell of it. Or a different mount. See if you can find a Leupold Mk4 to try on it. I have 2 on 2 of my .50s and love them. I have a redfield 3-9 that's reliable. I'll try it to eliminate a variable. Thanks. But, you're putting a variable scope on to remove a variable????
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/2/2015 6:14:05 PM EDT
[#50]
If your ability to draw a circle and your ability to pull a trigger smoothly are in any way indicative of each other, I'd take pause before passing judgement on the rifle.
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
