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I got done reading your reply and the first thing I thought was "that'll be a tough sell". Yeah, I don't even know.... Let me paint a picture. Being a fighter pilot in something like an F22 is generally seen as the coolest job in the USAF; akin to being CAG or some other high speed shit in the Army. Its seen as a selling point for prospective AF officers and to make missile field time mandatory would really fuck that up. I just don't see that kind of policy being made. The easiest fix is no more using certain AFSC's as a dumping ground and to make nuke duty a controlled tour. As bad as USAF SF have it, those poor missile bastards have it worse. We have a culture problem as much as we have a heritage problem and that's always bothered me. Im still torn on the issue though as its really become a focal point for Senior leaders. |
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1950's film on weapons delivery, no GPS required, just "toss" it in the general direction of the target. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dIqfN_aPtY View Quote The Genie was an air to air missile with a similar use. Fire it in the vicinity of a Soviet bomber formation and let the nuke blast do its business. Nike SAM system the same way (the nuke versions). Fascinating in todays world. |
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The Genie was an air to air missile with a similar use. Fire it in the vicinity of a Soviet bomber formation and let the nuke blast do its business. Nike SAM system the same way (the nuke versions). Fascinating in todays world. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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1950's film on weapons delivery, no GPS required, just "toss" it in the general direction of the target. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dIqfN_aPtY The Genie was an air to air missile with a similar use. Fire it in the vicinity of a Soviet bomber formation and let the nuke blast do its business. Nike SAM system the same way (the nuke versions). Fascinating in todays world. The Genie would probably have gone off if it were ever in a fire, too. |
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Quoted: The Genie was an air to air missile with a similar use. Fire it in the vicinity of a Soviet bomber formation and let the nuke blast do its business. Nike SAM system the same way (the nuke versions). Fascinating in todays world. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: 1950's film on weapons delivery, no GPS required, just "toss" it in the general direction of the target. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dIqfN_aPtY The Genie was an air to air missile with a similar use. Fire it in the vicinity of a Soviet bomber formation and let the nuke blast do its business. Nike SAM system the same way (the nuke versions). Fascinating in todays world. |
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Is nukes where the best officers go or where the worst officers get dumped?
You can tell from that whether the AF cares or not. Nukes is a 4 star command now, right? So tell me Rand's experience with nuclear weapons. I'll wait. |
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I feel mentored. I see some inherent risk with what you describe though and Big Blue don't play that game. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Gilly addressed this in succinct fashion. Zero tolerance breeds and illusion of success. It institutionalizes procedures designed to make the numbers look correct on paper so the leadership can say it doesn't have a problem, but this incapacitates said leadership in the face of real issues, as they don't know (and don't want to know) that there's a problem. By default, they cannot act. We all know the first priority of work. For nukes, it's still security with accountability, which is great. However, the same emphasis is placed on all levels of performance and their measures, as if to prove that nothing could possibly be wrong, ever. It's cool to tell your bosses how you run the tightest ship in the industry, show them numbers, describe processes and puff your chest out in your eliteness. You do that at the expense of real preparedness. The whole apparatus becomes a slave to the service of abstract justifications to outsiders, with the price being paid by the guys on the ground. Since they can't fail, they find ways to succeed without abandoning the actual mission in favor of the superfluous requirements of management. How is this done? Well, just like is has been since the beginning of time: motherfuckers script processes and training, pencil whip documentation and flat out lie in order to create the time and space they need to to their jobs, with management wallowing in the cognitive dissonance of "if I don't know, I don't have to lie"... and the paper matrix shows uniform success. Of course, this doesn't not mean success in the strictest sense, which is what zero tolerance pretends to mean. The actual product is a dance along the razor's edge between success and failure, with the perils of the situation going unseen and unaddressed. I feel mentored. I see some inherent risk with what you describe though and Big Blue don't play that game. I've watched pride, self-service and the attendant fear of failure undermine effectiveness more than once. Reliance on layered apparati and the concentric rings of defense in depth should allow for the safe realization of points of failure so they can be addressed effectively, but that'sthat's not how it works. Instead, it's used as a means to cover weaknesses in various security blankets and bolstered by threats against the worker bees. It's the way of the world. |
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Is nukes where the best officers go or where the worst officers get dumped? You can tell from that whether the AF cares or not. Nukes is a 4 star command now, right? So tell me Rand's experience with nuclear weapons. I'll wait. View Quote You know what I'm going to say, so this is for everyone else. Nukes are an incredibly important part of national defense. It has to be done, by someone. But let's be honest. How many of our all volunteer force wants to go sit in a hole up in the norther tier? For more than 4 years. Make it a mandatory assignment and see how many people re-sign after their initial commitment. That's just the honest truth. You can spin it as the best job in the world, but in 5 star resorts, give bonus pay, award a shitty medal that half the AF qualifies for, but in the end, you are away from home for 30 hours at a time living in one of the least populous places of the US. The next argument to be made is that all pilots should have a nuke tour before flying planes. Do you think anyone will actually sign up to fly knowing that? This is a very different military than 10, 20, and 30 years ago. Also, the airlines are hiring. In addition, because of the ridiculous way the AF promotion process works, a brand new pilot with 5 years in is going to have a difficult time. Haven't we had the debate about the CSAF or WG/CC being a pilot/non-pilot before? Wasn't the consensus that it doesn't matter what his job was, as long as he was a good leader? I don't know this Rand character from Adam, just a devils advocate question. I will say that with all of the negative nuke exposure, this isn't the best decision. As for nukes getting less money than fighter squadrons, show me the numbers. I am well aware of sewage problems in silos and every other issue up north. Shit's falling apart all across the AF. Last base I was at didn't have the grass cut for 2 months. It was awesome. That's a leadership issue, not a money issue. ETA: Sit down with some nuke officers, if you already haven't, and listen to their gripes. Then come up with a solution that will work in the current AF/military/modern world climate. A realistic one. |
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You know what I'm going to say, so this is for everyone else. Nukes are an incredibly important part of national defense. It has to be done, by someone. But let's be honest. How many of our all volunteer force wants to go sit in a hole up in the norther tier? For more than 4 years. Make it a mandatory assignment and see how many people re-sign after their initial commitment. That's just the honest truth. You can spin it as the best job in the world, but in 5 star resorts, give bonus pay, award a shitty medal that half the AF qualifies for, but in the end, you are away from home for 30 hours at a time living in one of the least populous places of the US. The next argument to be made is that all pilots should have a nuke tour before flying planes. Do you think anyone will actually sign up to fly knowing that? This is a very different military than 10, 20, and 30 years ago. Also, the airlines are hiring. In addition, because of the ridiculous way the AF promotion process works, a brand new pilot with 5 years in is going to have a difficult time. Haven't we had the debate about the CSAF or WG/CC being a pilot/non-pilot before? Wasn't the consensus that it doesn't matter what his job was, as long as he was a good leader? I don't know this Rand character from Adam, just a devils advocate question. I will say that with all of the negative nuke exposure, this isn't the best decision. As for nukes getting less money than fighter squadrons, show me the numbers. I am well aware of sewage problems in silos and every other issue up north. Shit's falling apart all across the AF. Last base I was at didn't have the grass cut for 2 months. It was awesome. That's a leadership issue, not a money issue. ETA: Sit down with some nuke officers, if you already haven't, and listen to their gripes. Then come up with a solution that will work in the current AF/military/modern world climate. A realistic one. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Is nukes where the best officers go or where the worst officers get dumped? You can tell from that whether the AF cares or not. Nukes is a 4 star command now, right? So tell me Rand's experience with nuclear weapons. I'll wait. You know what I'm going to say, so this is for everyone else. Nukes are an incredibly important part of national defense. It has to be done, by someone. But let's be honest. How many of our all volunteer force wants to go sit in a hole up in the norther tier? For more than 4 years. Make it a mandatory assignment and see how many people re-sign after their initial commitment. That's just the honest truth. You can spin it as the best job in the world, but in 5 star resorts, give bonus pay, award a shitty medal that half the AF qualifies for, but in the end, you are away from home for 30 hours at a time living in one of the least populous places of the US. The next argument to be made is that all pilots should have a nuke tour before flying planes. Do you think anyone will actually sign up to fly knowing that? This is a very different military than 10, 20, and 30 years ago. Also, the airlines are hiring. In addition, because of the ridiculous way the AF promotion process works, a brand new pilot with 5 years in is going to have a difficult time. Haven't we had the debate about the CSAF or WG/CC being a pilot/non-pilot before? Wasn't the consensus that it doesn't matter what his job was, as long as he was a good leader? I don't know this Rand character from Adam, just a devils advocate question. I will say that with all of the negative nuke exposure, this isn't the best decision. As for nukes getting less money than fighter squadrons, show me the numbers. I am well aware of sewage problems in silos and every other issue up north. Shit's falling apart all across the AF. Last base I was at didn't have the grass cut for 2 months. It was awesome. That's a leadership issue, not a money issue. ETA: Sit down with some nuke officers, if you already haven't, and listen to their gripes. Then come up with a solution that will work in the current AF/military/modern world climate. A realistic one. It gets to culture and who we target for recruitment; when I was policy advocate for USMC nuclear weapon security and had the numbers upped; our recruiting command even came back and said we can sell everyone of those contracts with no issue |
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so our self-less knights of the sky don't want to fly if they have to do a nuke tour? Fuck them. No shortage of guys who want to fly jets.
You know, as bad as the missile fields are, submarines are worse. Yet there are highly talented officers who go to nukes, its competitive to get in AND they often become 4 stars. You will see pilots, submariners, and SWOs with 4 stars in the Navy because it respects the men who do their job. The AF doesn't give a fuck about anybody who isn't a pilot. Its not a professional military branch of service. Its a flying club, sponsored unknowingly by the taxpayers with the aero-space industry doing the heavy lifting on the PR. So tell me why ANYONE who actually does nukes for a living should give a shit when they know that their service will basically be ignored and somebody with the universal management badge will come in and tell them how to do their job. |
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so our self-less knights of the sky don't want to fly if they have to do a nuke tour? Fuck them. No shortage of guys who want to fly jets. You know, as bad as the missile fields are, submarines are worse. Yet there are highly talented officers who go to nukes, its competitive to get in AND they often become 4 stars. You will see pilots, submariners, and SWOs with 4 stars in the Navy because it respects the men who do their job. The AF doesn't give a fuck about anybody who isn't a pilot. Its not a professional military branch of service. Its a flying club, sponsored unknowingly by the taxpayers with the aero-space industry doing the heavy lifting on the PR. So tell me why ANYONE who actually does nukes for a living should give a shit when they know that their service will basically be ignored and somebody with the universal management badge will come in and tell them how to do their job. View Quote No disagreements on the Navy part. There's a lot of smart people out there. How come they haven't figured out your theory of the AF flying club? That would make a great news story for a politician or Army general. ETA: Im out for the evening. Gotta be up early manning a sweet flying club desk. |
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View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Maybe the true delivery vehicle would be the SR-72? I doubt they would use an F-15 to delivery this thing. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v616/CobraChief/140409-F-IW726-061.jpg Nahh.... |
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so our self-less knights of the sky don't want to fly if they have to do a nuke tour? Fuck them. No shortage of guys who want to fly jets. You know, as bad as the missile fields are, submarines are worse. Yet there are highly talented officers who go to nukes, its competitive to get in AND they often become 4 stars. You will see pilots, submariners, and SWOs with 4 stars in the Navy because it respects the men who do their job. The AF doesn't give a fuck about anybody who isn't a pilot. Its not a professional military branch of service. Its a flying club, sponsored unknowingly by the taxpayers with the aero-space industry doing the heavy lifting on the PR. So tell me why ANYONE who actually does nukes for a living should give a shit when they know that their service will basically be ignored and somebody with the universal management badge will come in and tell them how to do their job. View Quote It IS getting better, but until very recently, for the wrong reasons. Big Blue had to get stung by some pretty bad PR before they started paying attention to the nuclear world. As late as 2013, it was more about fixing the optics than about building a competent nuclear force. The cheating scandal last year did more to panic senior leadership about the state of the nuclear, and in particular, missile, community than anything previous. (The bombers are flyers, and even if their status is below the fighter guys, they're still zipper-suited sun gods who played in IRQ and AFG, so they've never suffered the same crushing neglect and outright abuse like the missile business.) That scandal exposed a pattern of toxic leadership, practices and cultural gangrene that was truly dangerous to any military force, let alone a military one. |
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It IS getting better, but until very recently, for the wrong reasons. Big Blue had to get stung by some pretty bad PR before they started paying attention to the nuclear world. As late as 2013, it was more about fixing the optics than about building a competent nuclear force. The cheating scandal last year did more to panic senior leadership about the state of the nuclear, and in particular, missile, community than anything previous. (The bombers are flyers, and even if their status is below the fighter guys, they're still zipper-suited sun gods who played in IRQ and AFG, so they've never suffered the same crushing neglect and outright abuse like the missile business.) That scandal exposed a pattern of toxic leadership, practices and cultural gangrene that was truly dangerous to any military force, let alone a military one. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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so our self-less knights of the sky don't want to fly if they have to do a nuke tour? Fuck them. No shortage of guys who want to fly jets. You know, as bad as the missile fields are, submarines are worse. Yet there are highly talented officers who go to nukes, its competitive to get in AND they often become 4 stars. You will see pilots, submariners, and SWOs with 4 stars in the Navy because it respects the men who do their job. The AF doesn't give a fuck about anybody who isn't a pilot. Its not a professional military branch of service. Its a flying club, sponsored unknowingly by the taxpayers with the aero-space industry doing the heavy lifting on the PR. So tell me why ANYONE who actually does nukes for a living should give a shit when they know that their service will basically be ignored and somebody with the universal management badge will come in and tell them how to do their job. It IS getting better, but until very recently, for the wrong reasons. Big Blue had to get stung by some pretty bad PR before they started paying attention to the nuclear world. As late as 2013, it was more about fixing the optics than about building a competent nuclear force. The cheating scandal last year did more to panic senior leadership about the state of the nuclear, and in particular, missile, community than anything previous. (The bombers are flyers, and even if their status is below the fighter guys, they're still zipper-suited sun gods who played in IRQ and AFG, so they've never suffered the same crushing neglect and outright abuse like the missile business.) That scandal exposed a pattern of toxic leadership, practices and cultural gangrene that was truly dangerous to any military force, let alone a military one. I have it on good authority that said toxic leadership, practices and cultural gangrene have been exported to affect far corners of the government. |
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I am espousing nothing new http://covers2.booksamillion.com/covers/bam/0/76/580/993/0765809931.jpg http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RFe6-eTbL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg http://www.offiziere.ch/wp-content/uploads/Grounded-Photo-e1401091535441.jpg The work has been done. The evidence is there. but there is too much money changing hands for anyone to care, and its not like we are ACTUALLY going downtown Beijing/Moscow, so its just dead grunts and wasted cash. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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so our self-less knights of the sky don't want to fly if they have to do a nuke tour? Fuck them. No shortage of guys who want to fly jets. You know, as bad as the missile fields are, submarines are worse. Yet there are highly talented officers who go to nukes, its competitive to get in AND they often become 4 stars. You will see pilots, submariners, and SWOs with 4 stars in the Navy because it respects the men who do their job. The AF doesn't give a fuck about anybody who isn't a pilot. Its not a professional military branch of service. Its a flying club, sponsored unknowingly by the taxpayers with the aero-space industry doing the heavy lifting on the PR. So tell me why ANYONE who actually does nukes for a living should give a shit when they know that their service will basically be ignored and somebody with the universal management badge will come in and tell them how to do their job. No disagreements on the Navy part. There's a lot of smart people out there. How come they haven't figured out your theory of the AF flying club? That would make a great news story for a politician or Army general. ETA: Im out for the evening. Gotta be up early manning a sweet flying club desk. I am espousing nothing new http://covers2.booksamillion.com/covers/bam/0/76/580/993/0765809931.jpg http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RFe6-eTbL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg http://www.offiziere.ch/wp-content/uploads/Grounded-Photo-e1401091535441.jpg The work has been done. The evidence is there. but there is too much money changing hands for anyone to care, and its not like we are ACTUALLY going downtown Beijing/Moscow, so its just dead grunts and wasted cash. I ain't readin' all those fuckin' words. Too much cool shit to do. |
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BLUF.
The Air Force spends a lot of money on shit we don't need, and everyone knows it but no one cares. |
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I hate to answer a question with a question as it comes off smart-assy.... But would you want me or my team to fail in our mission to secure a nuclear weapon because someone wasn't handling their shit like an adult? A failure to do my job means a nuke gets stolen or captured. In my opinion some stuff requires zero tolerance, this seems like it ought to be one of them. I get what you're hinting at but I really don't know another way to address the issue. The work is generally cold, miserable, unglamorous, and at times lonely as fuck but its monumentally important, nuke security is as "vital to national security" as it gets 99% of the time. Personally I feel unfucking the career field from the top down and the bottom up would address most issues, after that looking at heavy handed policies would be something I could entertain. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Lemay wrote the book on the AF Nuke mission, why we won't use his blueprint again is the part I'm fucking stumped about. because the AF leadership doesn't care. Its not a mystery. AF is about airplanes, not airpower. I've never had conversations on the topic outside of MAJCOM leadership so I can't really attest to how much "they" care. I know MAJCOM doesn't fucking play, Nuke Base leadership will roast a mofo that doesn't do their business IAW regs/checklists. Nukes certainly don't have the sexiness of fighter jets, I'll concede that. I do have a hard time believing they don't care though as every time a slip up takes place, it gets plastered on the national news and Wing leadership gets canned. With your POV in mind, would it be fair to say the Wing leaders are being whipping boys for a greater problem? Does it seem like a problem to you that there is zero tolerance for failure in your line of work, with massive punishments for failure, and it's not a career path? I hate to answer a question with a question as it comes off smart-assy.... But would you want me or my team to fail in our mission to secure a nuclear weapon because someone wasn't handling their shit like an adult? A failure to do my job means a nuke gets stolen or captured. In my opinion some stuff requires zero tolerance, this seems like it ought to be one of them. I get what you're hinting at but I really don't know another way to address the issue. The work is generally cold, miserable, unglamorous, and at times lonely as fuck but its monumentally important, nuke security is as "vital to national security" as it gets 99% of the time. Personally I feel unfucking the career field from the top down and the bottom up would address most issues, after that looking at heavy handed policies would be something I could entertain. I've had those conversations outside of the career field, and no one cared, until recently. Your post is an outstanding example of the problem. Those doing the mission really, really care about doing the mission, and, when done right, even the youngest AB on a camper team knows why he/she doing it right is important to the overall scheme of things. But until recently, Big Blue (Air Staff outside of the A10 and AFGSC) only saw the nuke business as a money drain on their programs. In 2006, the #1 nuke guy in AFSPC headquarters was an O5. He had a staff of five to help him out. The #1 guy in the Air Staff was an O6. He had 23 people on his staff to develop ALL nuclear weapons policy, doctrine, capabilities and requirements for the entire USAF. The highest ranking general officer dealing solely with nukes in the USAF was the 2-star at 20th Air Force. Note that there was not, at that time, any one-star positions for nuclear weapons--1-star missileers were doing space ops jobs. The nuke "commands" (AFSPC, ACC, AFMC) all had nukes as a SMALL subset of their primary mission. Even AFSPC, who got a combat unit in 20th AF, thought the only good news about getting nukes was the acquisition of another hundred-ish command billets they could stick their guys into. The Air Staff of the late 2000s/early 2010s regularly, knowingly, and intentionally made budget decisions that short-changed the nuclear business so they could fund other stuff. They intentionally assumed risk in the nuclear community by leaving stuff under- and unfunded, because they had higher priorities...than the nuclear mission. And I'm not talking about mahogany paneling in the MAF lounge, I'm talking "I know there are cracks in the UH1N tail booms, AGAIN, but if we replace them, we can't fund the latest GPS block whatever satellite." Some ops units had to decide which kind of paper was more important--system printer (to print out emergency action messages), or toilet. So yes, there was a HUGE disconnect between the personal heroics of the men and women in the field like you, who knew/know how important the job is, and the people who were supposed to organize, train and equip you, and who truly didn't want to do any of that. At your level, hopefully your commanders did their best to shield you from that kind of neglect, but trust me, it was there. |
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The Genie would probably have gone off if it were ever in a fire, too. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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1950's film on weapons delivery, no GPS required, just "toss" it in the general direction of the target. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dIqfN_aPtY The Genie was an air to air missile with a similar use. Fire it in the vicinity of a Soviet bomber formation and let the nuke blast do its business. Nike SAM system the same way (the nuke versions). Fascinating in todays world. The Genie would probably have gone off if it were ever in a fire, too. Open pit warhead? |
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Its well known AF promotions are all fucked and bound to become worse but I fail to see the relation. The fighter pilot mafia won't let officers in my AFSC promote past certain point either. It is what it is. I've never met an Officer that didn't care about the nuclear mission and the higher us I met including a LtGen from the Mighty 8th was deadly serious about it. I worked nukes for years at 2 different installations, our facilities tended to be nice. Yea the FS folks get more money, no shocker there. Fighter Pilots have a little prima donna thing going on, again that is what it is. We were never "shorted" because of that and we always had the money and equipment needed to fulfill the mission. If I could bitch about anything, it'd be my training. Nuke Cops ought to be going through Infantry School and other ground combat courses instead our current bullshit. Instead of addressing that real issue we throw manning at the problem. The AF does take the mission serious; they give us the money, the manning, and the AFI's that tell us how to shit and what it better look like when we're done. The only people that have leeway in the nuke game is USAF SF, MUNS and MXS doesn't have shit. They have a TO and they follow it exactly or its game over and their Commander will get all Rapey on them. If anyone is failing its my career field a we'll take anyone, give some so-so training, and shove them into a WSA or missile field. Big AF may be enablers of the problem but they aren't the problem. Lemay wrote the book on the AF Nuke mission, why we won't use his blueprint again is the part I'm fucking stumped about. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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The AF cares about its nuclear mission to the point where the more it fucks up, the more fighter pilots get to be general. Name a missileer who served as Chief of Staff of the Air Force. Compare the facilities in the missile fields to the fighter squadron facilities. Everyone involved in the nuclear enterprise knows the AF doesn't give a fuck about the nuclear mission. Why don't we have 40 different ways to deliver a nuclear weapon? I mean, the more the merrier, right? Its only money. Its well known AF promotions are all fucked and bound to become worse but I fail to see the relation. The fighter pilot mafia won't let officers in my AFSC promote past certain point either. It is what it is. I've never met an Officer that didn't care about the nuclear mission and the higher us I met including a LtGen from the Mighty 8th was deadly serious about it. I worked nukes for years at 2 different installations, our facilities tended to be nice. Yea the FS folks get more money, no shocker there. Fighter Pilots have a little prima donna thing going on, again that is what it is. We were never "shorted" because of that and we always had the money and equipment needed to fulfill the mission. If I could bitch about anything, it'd be my training. Nuke Cops ought to be going through Infantry School and other ground combat courses instead our current bullshit. Instead of addressing that real issue we throw manning at the problem. The AF does take the mission serious; they give us the money, the manning, and the AFI's that tell us how to shit and what it better look like when we're done. The only people that have leeway in the nuke game is USAF SF, MUNS and MXS doesn't have shit. They have a TO and they follow it exactly or its game over and their Commander will get all Rapey on them. If anyone is failing its my career field a we'll take anyone, give some so-so training, and shove them into a WSA or missile field. Big AF may be enablers of the problem but they aren't the problem. Lemay wrote the book on the AF Nuke mission, why we won't use his blueprint again is the part I'm fucking stumped about. Lemay wasn't know for being a pilot. He may have created SAC and made it run like a Swiss watch, but for the majority of his career he was known for being an extraordinary navigator. The fighter pilot mafia will not allow the work of a navigator to be repeated when some pilot has an idea of how to do things, whether it looks like it will work or not. |
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Do you think an F-15 would be able to penetrate airspace covered by S-300 or S-400 missile systems? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Maybe the true delivery vehicle would be the SR-72? I doubt they would use an F-15 to delivery this thing. Wat Do you think an F-15 would be able to penetrate airspace covered by S-300 or S-400 missile systems? Yes |
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1950's film on weapons delivery, no GPS required, just "toss" it in the general direction of the target. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dIqfN_aPtY View Quote In the F-4E lofting a B61 using radar steering and the analog bombing computer the goal was to score hits within 35 meters of the radar aim point. Most Mission Ready rated crews I dealt with were capable of better. 5 to 11 meters was the norm for most of the seasoned crews. Not bad for tossing a bomb from 5 miles away. |
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The warhead in a B-61 isn't all that impressive. It's the precision and depth of delivery that makes it. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Damn, it's hard to comprehend that that little thing would flatten a city. E=mc^2 is a bitch. The warhead in a B-61 isn't all that impressive. It's the precision and depth of delivery that makes it. I though the B61 was dial a yield from 0.3 to 340kT. 340 kT is nothing to sneeze at. |
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I though the B61 was dial a yield from 0.3 to 340kT. 340 kT is nothing to sneeze at. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Damn, it's hard to comprehend that that little thing would flatten a city. E=mc^2 is a bitch. The warhead in a B-61 isn't all that impressive. It's the precision and depth of delivery that makes it. I though the B61 was dial a yield from 0.3 to 340kT. 340 kT is nothing to sneeze at. I think the -12 is only 50kT or so. Big bomb in a small package. |
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Really now. Why would they be practicing this, I wonder. Because since we're not developing new nuclear weapons we are stuck trying to modernize and keep effective old designs like the B61 Part of me wonders if we're better off sticking to designs that have actually been tested, instead of a shiny new design that cannot be tested. Newer would be better, but without real, no-bullshit testing, I'm not sure I want to trust our national security to a design which "should work". Nuclear weapon design is pretty well figured out. And we know the W-80 works already. Apparently so do the Chinese... The W88 as well. |
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I think the -12 is only 50kT or so. Big bomb in a small package. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Damn, it's hard to comprehend that that little thing would flatten a city. E=mc^2 is a bitch. The warhead in a B-61 isn't all that impressive. It's the precision and depth of delivery that makes it. I though the B61 was dial a yield from 0.3 to 340kT. 340 kT is nothing to sneeze at. I think the -12 is only 50kT or so. Big bomb in a small package. Oh. Noted. Thanks. |
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With a max yield of 50kt on the -12 I wonder if the secondary is removed and it's just the boosted primary...
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I've watched pride, self-service and the attendant fear of failure undermine effectiveness more than once. Reliance on layered apparati and the concentric rings of defense in depth should allow for the safe realization of points of failure so they can be addressed effectively, but that'sthat's not how it works. Instead, it's used as a means to cover weaknesses in various security blankets and bolstered by threats against the worker bees. It's the way of the world. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Gilly addressed this in succinct fashion. Zero tolerance breeds and illusion of success. It institutionalizes procedures designed to make the numbers look correct on paper so the leadership can say it doesn't have a problem, but this incapacitates said leadership in the face of real issues, as they don't know (and don't want to know) that there's a problem. By default, they cannot act. We all know the first priority of work. For nukes, it's still security with accountability, which is great. However, the same emphasis is placed on all levels of performance and their measures, as if to prove that nothing could possibly be wrong, ever. It's cool to tell your bosses how you run the tightest ship in the industry, show them numbers, describe processes and puff your chest out in your eliteness. You do that at the expense of real preparedness. The whole apparatus becomes a slave to the service of abstract justifications to outsiders, with the price being paid by the guys on the ground. Since they can't fail, they find ways to succeed without abandoning the actual mission in favor of the superfluous requirements of management. How is this done? Well, just like is has been since the beginning of time: motherfuckers script processes and training, pencil whip documentation and flat out lie in order to create the time and space they need to to their jobs, with management wallowing in the cognitive dissonance of "if I don't know, I don't have to lie"... and the paper matrix shows uniform success. Of course, this doesn't not mean success in the strictest sense, which is what zero tolerance pretends to mean. The actual product is a dance along the razor's edge between success and failure, with the perils of the situation going unseen and unaddressed. I feel mentored. I see some inherent risk with what you describe though and Big Blue don't play that game. I've watched pride, self-service and the attendant fear of failure undermine effectiveness more than once. Reliance on layered apparati and the concentric rings of defense in depth should allow for the safe realization of points of failure so they can be addressed effectively, but that'sthat's not how it works. Instead, it's used as a means to cover weaknesses in various security blankets and bolstered by threats against the worker bees. It's the way of the world. That statement should be blasted out on global. Then someone should run in and kick certain people in the nuts after they read it. |
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That statement should be blasted out on global. Then someone should run in and kick certain people in the nuts after they read it. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Gilly addressed this in succinct fashion. Zero tolerance breeds and illusion of success. It institutionalizes procedures designed to make the numbers look correct on paper so the leadership can say it doesn't have a problem, but this incapacitates said leadership in the face of real issues, as they don't know (and don't want to know) that there's a problem. By default, they cannot act. We all know the first priority of work. For nukes, it's still security with accountability, which is great. However, the same emphasis is placed on all levels of performance and their measures, as if to prove that nothing could possibly be wrong, ever. It's cool to tell your bosses how you run the tightest ship in the industry, show them numbers, describe processes and puff your chest out in your eliteness. You do that at the expense of real preparedness. The whole apparatus becomes a slave to the service of abstract justifications to outsiders, with the price being paid by the guys on the ground. Since they can't fail, they find ways to succeed without abandoning the actual mission in favor of the superfluous requirements of management. How is this done? Well, just like is has been since the beginning of time: motherfuckers script processes and training, pencil whip documentation and flat out lie in order to create the time and space they need to to their jobs, with management wallowing in the cognitive dissonance of "if I don't know, I don't have to lie"... and the paper matrix shows uniform success. Of course, this doesn't not mean success in the strictest sense, which is what zero tolerance pretends to mean. The actual product is a dance along the razor's edge between success and failure, with the perils of the situation going unseen and unaddressed. I feel mentored. I see some inherent risk with what you describe though and Big Blue don't play that game. I've watched pride, self-service and the attendant fear of failure undermine effectiveness more than once. Reliance on layered apparati and the concentric rings of defense in depth should allow for the safe realization of points of failure so they can be addressed effectively, but that'sthat's not how it works. Instead, it's used as a means to cover weaknesses in various security blankets and bolstered by threats against the worker bees. It's the way of the world. That statement should be blasted out on global. Then someone should run in and kick certain people in the nuts after they read it. I've seen the horrors, the horrors that you've seen. Not only do we have common ground here, but you know the details of the situations I'm referencing. |
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The Chinese bought that information from Bill Clinton fair and square. Delivery was a bit unconventional. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Apparently so do the Chinese... The W88 as well. The Chinese bought that information from Bill Clinton fair and square. Delivery was a bit unconventional. I wonder what leaked secrets we have to look forward to under the next Clinton Administration. |
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Meh, 8-61kt dial a yield, with no PAL, so much for two man control... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/A-4B_with_Mk_7_bomb_on_cat_USS_Saratoga.jpg/1280px-A-4B_with_Mk_7_bomb_on_cat_USS_Saratoga.jpg Well.......it was No-Lone until it went onto the cat....lol View Quote Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Lemay wasn't know for being a pilot. He may have created SAC and made it run like a Swiss watch, but for the majority of his career he was known for being an extraordinary navigator. The fighter pilot mafia will not allow the work of a navigator to be repeated when some pilot has an idea of how to do things, whether it looks like it will work or not. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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The AF cares about its nuclear mission to the point where the more it fucks up, the more fighter pilots get to be general. Name a missileer who served as Chief of Staff of the Air Force. Compare the facilities in the missile fields to the fighter squadron facilities. Everyone involved in the nuclear enterprise knows the AF doesn't give a fuck about the nuclear mission. Why don't we have 40 different ways to deliver a nuclear weapon? I mean, the more the merrier, right? Its only money. Its well known AF promotions are all fucked and bound to become worse but I fail to see the relation. The fighter pilot mafia won't let officers in my AFSC promote past certain point either. It is what it is. I've never met an Officer that didn't care about the nuclear mission and the higher us I met including a LtGen from the Mighty 8th was deadly serious about it. I worked nukes for years at 2 different installations, our facilities tended to be nice. Yea the FS folks get more money, no shocker there. Fighter Pilots have a little prima donna thing going on, again that is what it is. We were never "shorted" because of that and we always had the money and equipment needed to fulfill the mission. If I could bitch about anything, it'd be my training. Nuke Cops ought to be going through Infantry School and other ground combat courses instead our current bullshit. Instead of addressing that real issue we throw manning at the problem. The AF does take the mission serious; they give us the money, the manning, and the AFI's that tell us how to shit and what it better look like when we're done. The only people that have leeway in the nuke game is USAF SF, MUNS and MXS doesn't have shit. They have a TO and they follow it exactly or its game over and their Commander will get all Rapey on them. If anyone is failing its my career field a we'll take anyone, give some so-so training, and shove them into a WSA or missile field. Big AF may be enablers of the problem but they aren't the problem. Lemay wrote the book on the AF Nuke mission, why we won't use his blueprint again is the part I'm fucking stumped about. Lemay wasn't know for being a pilot. He may have created SAC and made it run like a Swiss watch, but for the majority of his career he was known for being an extraordinary navigator. The fighter pilot mafia will not allow the work of a navigator to be repeated when some pilot has an idea of how to do things, whether it looks like it will work or not. That part shouldn't matter one bit, LeMay was squared the fuck away in every sector of his service. He designed and built SAC from the ground up. He was able to take nothingness and turn it into the worlds most competent nuclear force without a near peer, that's no small feat and he is revered to this day by real USAF Officers. Under his leadership we had high ready rates for A/C, weapons, and he unfucked my AFSC pretty damn well. He laid out the foundation for nuclear ops and nuclear security, the blueprint to fix this shit is right in front of us and I always thought Global Strike Command was a step in that direction. |
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That was the main reason I posted the video. I thought the rocket spin was wicked cool View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Never realized they were spin stabilized like that. That was the main reason I posted the video. I thought the rocket spin was wicked cool Are you propsing your idea to shove them out the back of a hooker? |
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It's less weird and more entertaining if you read that in the voice of the Swedish Chef. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Maybe the true delivery vehicle would be the SR-72? I doubt they would use an F-15 to delivery this thing. Wat It's less weird and more entertaining if you read that in the voice of the Swedish Chef. Thermonuclear Bork? |
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so our self-less knights of the sky don't want to fly if they have to do a nuke tour? Fuck them. No shortage of guys who want to fly jets. You know, as bad as the missile fields are, submarines are worse. Yet there are highly talented officers who go to nukes, its competitive to get in AND they often become 4 stars. You will see pilots, submariners, and SWOs with 4 stars in the Navy because it respects the men who do their job. The AF doesn't give a fuck about anybody who isn't a pilot. Its not a professional military branch of service. Its a flying club, sponsored unknowingly by the taxpayers with the aero-space industry doing the heavy lifting on the PR. So tell me why ANYONE who actually does nukes for a living should give a shit when they know that their service will basically be ignored and somebody with the universal management badge will come in and tell them how to do their job. View Quote We don't often agree, but this statement is dead-nuts accurate. |
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<a href="http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/beech18/media/Marvinthemartain_zpsf38ab038.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a552/beech18/Marvinthemartain_zpsf38ab038.jpg</a> View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Where's the kaboom? There is supposed to be an earth shattering kaboom. <a href="http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/beech18/media/Marvinthemartain_zpsf38ab038.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a552/beech18/Marvinthemartain_zpsf38ab038.jpg</a> |
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i just gotta say...these types of videos make me feel slightly better about paying thru the nose for taxes!!...murica!!!
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View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Maybe the true delivery vehicle would be the SR-72? I doubt they would use an F-15 to delivery this thing. Wat Do you think an F-15 would be able to penetrate airspace covered by S-300 or S-400 missile systems? After the F-15G is done clearing them out? This airplane? http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=48064 |
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Interesting to me how long it took to arm the aircraft, and that the aircraft didn't react like it had just dropped a nuclear weapon.
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Quoted: The Genie was an air to air missile with a similar use. Fire it in the vicinity of a Soviet bomber formation and let the nuke blast do its business. Nike SAM system the same way (the nuke versions). Fascinating in todays world. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: 1950's film on weapons delivery, no GPS required, just "toss" it in the general direction of the target. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dIqfN_aPtY The Genie was an air to air missile with a similar use. Fire it in the vicinity of a Soviet bomber formation and let the nuke blast do its business. Nike SAM system the same way (the nuke versions). Fascinating in todays world. |
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