I hear the P51 was only great because of it's long fuel range (escorts of bombers), but have always heard with the Rolls Royce Merlin it was unstoppable.

The top US Ace of WW2 (Maj. Richard Bong) had 50 Air Kills in a P51*, while the German Ace (Erich Hartmann) had 352 in a Bf 109.

Of course Germany was fighting in the War long before the US entered.

So, is the legend of the P51 all American hype, or was it the real deal?


*Correction: Major Bong flew a P38 Lightning

cadillac of the sky

I saw one in an airshow when I was a kid.

My grandfather (WWII Vet) took me.

I thought he flew a P-38?

Maj. Bong flew a P-38.

P-51 had long range, mediocre maneuverability and a weak wing. Tactics and numbers allowed them to prevail.

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This.
Bong flew a Lighting in the Pacific.

Once they tweaked the imperfections, it was great for bomber escort but not designed for close ground support.  Again, I think there were many great aircraft by the end of WWII.

It was a great fighter.  I'd consider it the best.  

Can't compare German aces to American since the Germans were able to rake in lots of kills in Russia against outdated planes with poorly trained pilots.  The German pilots were still great though.  Another thing to consider is that American aces were rotated off the front to be instructors while German aces flew until they died.

Corsair > P51.



/thread

As an air superiority fighter, I think it did shoot down the most enemy aircraft. However, the P-47 had almost as many air to air kills and destroyed more stuff on the ground. However, I read that bomber crews shot down more German aircraft than fighters ever did. Not sure if that was 100% accurate.

P47 was.

Corsair > P51

ME 262.  

some interesting facts here:

TA-152 was faster and sexier

I think the lightning had the highest K/D ratio of any American plane.  I think I heard that somewhere.  

Either way, it's the sexiest plane.  

Ever.

Thread over.

Fork-tailed devil for the win.

The Mustang was the best ESCORT fighter of the war, and for the nation that truly defined strategic bombing, that was the winning card.

For straight up air dominance, no.  That probably gets into the F8F, Ta-152C, and Yak-3.

I thought the 262 was really more of a bomber interceptor rather than an air superiority fighter.

Brewster 239 has the highest kill ratio.

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As pointed out, Dick Bong flew P-38s in the Pacific. He also had 40 victories in a huge publicity race against fellow P-38 pilot Tommy Maguire.

But, on to your question. Was the P-51 the greatest air superiority fighter of WWII? Probably one, if not THE, most debated questions from the war.

I think, it comes down to what the definition of 'greatest air superiority' fighter is.

It is true, what made the Mustang so great was its legs. It had the range to follow the bombers anywhere and stay and fight. It certainly made a difference. It also was an excellent air frame, had gobs of power and, though it was more 'boom and zoom' it was also highly maneuverable. But you could argue that the Spitfire was its equal in a dogfight. Or, more to the point, the D series of FW-190. Even the K model Bf-109's were, performance wise, superior to the Mustang. Heck, the P-47 was up there as well.

So, what is the difference?

You can't just look at kill ratio, or performance of a plan on paper. Certainly, as you pointed out, the Germans were flying much longer. You can even break it down into different planes and nations. Each operated for a different amount of time, in different theaters, etc. than comparable aircraft. This is where it is important to note that while this plane or that plane may have an edge, it is just that, an 'edge'. The Mustang didn't fly circles around other aircraft and vice versa.

What is it then?

I think it is several factors. Not just of one plane, but the planes and pilots it flew against. By the time the Mustang arrived on scene the Luftwaffe's back was broken. Indeed, the Battle of Britain spelled the end of the Jagdflieger. It never replaces those losses, at least with pilots as experienced as those it lost. Africa, The Mediterranean, The Eastern Front only sped it up. It became a war of attrition. By the time the Mustang showed up and the pilots were getting warmed up, the Luftwaffe was on its last legs. US pilots had tons more training than their German counterparts by that time. They had all the fuel in the world too. In the Spring of '44 the Mustangs decimated the Luftwaffe's fighter pilots. When General Doolittle took over the 8th he let them off the leash to pursue the Luftwaffe '.....in the air and on the ground...'. He also started crediting ground victories as a kill, giving incentive for pilots to strafe (which they didn't enjoy, on average). Looking back, we can see that, from late '43 on the 8th and 15th bombers weren't out to bring Germany to its knees.......they were there to force the Luftwaffe to contest raids and, consequently, lose pilots.

So, after all that rambling (I'm tired and going to bed), I think the Mustang was the greatest fighter of the war. But not just performance. It was in the right place, at the right time, flown by the right guys, and used in the right way. It could have just as easily been squandered and, while we still would have won, it may have been very different with the Mustang playing a minor roll.

ETA: In several Luftwaffe pilot memoirs they, almost to the man, claim that it was really over when the Mustang showed up and cited its range as the determining factor. Yes, the Spit and P-47 were a handful. But you never had to worry about them over Germany (at least, worry about them much). The Mustang, on the other hand, was always there. They take off, Mustangs were waiting. They fight, Mustangs always had fuel to fight. They disengage and head for home when fuel is low, the Mustangs were there waiting for them. Several pointed out how frustrating it was. Mustang were always somewhere, circling and waiting. Never forced into a fight, or to avoid one, because of gas. The Mustangs forced the Luftwaffe to fight on its terms and took all of the initiative.

Yeah, -47 was a beast. Check out the gun dispersion, paving the skies with .50 bmg API.

You can't use kill counts as a way to compare fighter plane effectiveness.  For one thing, most U.S. Pilot did one tour or two tours.  The German pilots pretty much flew nonstop until they were shot down or the war ended.  Also, many if not most kills came against unsuspecting or outclassed aircraft.  Scoring a kill against a FW190 earns the same point as downing a storch.

I don't recall ever reading or hearing of someone who flew the P51 (with the merlin) and thought it was a POS.  Chuck Yeager flew the P51, P39, and P47 during WW2 and flew many German planes including the FW 190 and the ME262 after the war and continued to speak very highly of the P51.  His Auto Biography covers a lot of this, it is a very good read.

Overall best fighter of WW2.  Bf109G.


Best American, F4U.

19-1 kill ratio for the F6F Hellcat.

P51 was a great all around fighter, it did alot of things well.  Specifically range and as an energy fighter.

.



If you are counting only air to air kills:  F6F Hellcat (over 5,100 kills) for the Navy and P51 (over 5,900 kills) for the Army.

P-51 didn't hit it's performance peak during the war till they replaced the Allison with the Rolls Royce Merlin. Then she was a bitch. I remember seeing an interview with a pilot who's squadron got field replacement p51's for their p47's during the war. He said he went up on his first shakedown flight of the 51 and when he landed he jumped down off the wing, fell to his knees and puked. It was that much more agile that he got airsick for the first time in his career. He did say he loved that aircraft.

I think Spain and Israel bought some after WWII and supercharged the engines and that mod upped the airspeed quite a bit.

F6F Hellcat, P-47, and Corsair were definitely the game changers.
Hellcat was hell for stout in PTO.

Some Storch kills have to be taken seriously.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1098642

As an aside:

People were always giving Erich Hartmann guff after the war, citing that all of his kills were against much 'easier' Russian aircraft and pilots. The story goes that somebody asked him once what he thought of the P-51, kind of insinuating that he hadn't really met his match. Hartmann responded with something like, "......I only encountered Mustangs a few times, but I wasn't too impressed with the four I shot down...."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Joachim_Marseille

Nice

P47

Wasnt "the best" but was good enough, and had enough numbers to matter.

As much as I love the P51D, it is not the end all be all that propaganda like the History Channel makes it out to be.

It could stay up much longer than the opposition.

A high service ceiling also was an advantage to maintaining kinetic energy over opponents.

It was fast in level flight and in a dive.  

However, contrary to popular belief against any of the Bf109s it would come into contact with, it would lose energy much faster in a turn.  It also could NOT out turn a 109.  

The 109 could easily out climb a P51.  The armament on the 109 was also superior.  

Pilots being equal, a P51 will be at a decided disadvantage in a turning or vertical fight against a 109.  

P51 would also be having a tough time against a FW 190 D9.

The Me 262 was "the most formidable aircraft of WWII" and "In a class of it's own", according to Eric Brown.

For a knife fight in a telephone booth dogfight, the P51 is very distant second to the Tempest V, Spitfire mk. XIV and Me 109K.

Corsair kills amounted to 2,140 claims. Very respectable but not the winner.

One of the stats that always made me think about losses not combat related is there were only 189 Corsairs lost in combat, but about 700 lost to non combat flights. Heck, it was safer to go up against the enemy than to fly it to get the oil checked.

That was only dictated by the end of war tactics, small numbers and production problems. They couldn't afford to loose them going toe to toe with the fighters.

lol no

Jebuss. No love for the Spitfire.

CORSAIR

German pilots had lots and lots of Russian and Polish aerial kills.  Lot's of inferior biplanes were chalked up in those German kill tallies.

My ass would be firmly seated in a Hawker Tempest, thank you very much.

The problem with picking American planes as the best in WW2 is that we came in so late other planes already had hundreds of kills, and some would say we were fighting the dregs and newbs by that point.

In any event, the best plane we ever built was the P-61 not 51. The Mustang was garbage compared to the Black Widow and if you had them meet at 10k feet over the desert at midnite the P-51 would lose 9 out 10 fights.



ETA- The mustang didn't even have a giant radio/radar compartment! lol!

Hartmann got his first kill (an IL-2) in November 1942.

But yes, the Mustand also had its own problems.

Yet it killed plenty of P38/47/51

I had an owner of a restored mustang let me try one on after hours at an air show years ago. You don't sit in it, you put it on.  They sure are sexy and solved the long range escort problem when the RR engine was swapped in. I think it's a great fighter but also the circumstances  and timing of its introduction added to its reputation.

To this day the sound of several mustangs taking off at once gives me goosebumps. One of the greatest sounds ever.

In terms of its effect on the war, it was probably the most important.

For survivability's sake, a radial air cooled engine beats a liquid cooled inline.

I think the FW190 or corsair were very close.  I am not sure if their ranges were comparable.

There is a certain amount of whitewashing IMHO.

The P-38 in it's later configurations, the P-38K/L, was as good as the P-51.
P-38 had just as good if not better in terms of range.
The P-38 was underdeveloped because Lockheed was making money off some export patrol aircraft pre Pearl Harbor.

Eaker and the 1943 bomber generals thought bombers could defend themselves.
Monk Hunter and some idiot fighter generals wanted to do big sweeps, which didnt work either.

The key was to send up the bombers as bait, and hunt the Germans as they took the bait; better yet, pursue them when they were low on gas and ammo on the way home, or hot them early as they were climbing.

So you had poor tactics; and planes that COULD have been the war winners were not developed because there wasn't what we call a demand signal.  Also, Eaker and Hunter didnt care too much about drop tanks and that would have helped more; didnt become a priority until after Arnold fired them.

So: if the USAAF understood their tactics better, and adapted their existing planes earlier, there could have been a greater role for the P-47 and P-38.  It is politically correct to say those two planes were worse then they were, and that the P-51 'saved the day' in Jan 1944.  It is easier to blame inadequate planes in 1943 as the cause of the problem; vice inadequate leadership in 1943.

If the USAAF had a better vision and cleaned up the bugs of the P-38 in 1942/1943 and invested in drop tanks earlier then history would have been less kind to the P-51 as its role would have been less.  

 





JUG!

The greatest aircraft of the war credited with air-to-air kills was..... The C47

It was the only unarmed aircraft ever credited with kills against enemy fighters.