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Posted: 8/1/2015 6:41:11 PM EDT
[#1]
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What gives you that impression? I prefer streets, but roads are a great way to connect places. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Why do you hate roads, combat_jack?  What gives you that impression? I prefer streets, but roads are a great way to connect places. stop lying. You hate all roads that don't trap people in cities because suburbs are da debil. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 6:44:05 PM EDT
[#2]
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So now we're back to the whole, just move Interstate 30 south schtick from the 80's and 90's? And how would we do that? And what would that cost this time? This time are we talking I-30 through Dallas and Tarrant counties, or are going to include Rockwall and Hunt? What about Interstate 20, which just happens to be a "few miles south" Interstate 30? There is an existing TXDOT right of way that runs south of Dallas. There would be no land purchase and no eminent domain. Just build a road, connect it on both ends, and move in. Where? The only existing RoW I know of south of Dallas is I-20. Or are you talking about putting I-30 south of Dallas County? If so, what good would that do? Again, they had auditors run the numbers and they came up with an additional $30B in construction over the next few decades. Who? I asked the same about the report he's relying on. You won't get an answer. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 6:45:05 PM EDT
[#3]
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It's no different than trying to reason a welfare queen off the government teat. People who have always had their driving lifestyle subsidized by other taxpayers refuse to see it that way. It's become a right, dammit. http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=58747 Quote HistoryQuoted:
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and fuck that. that chunk of road is of vital importance. this is blatantly some developer who wants a ton of "prime" land. Well, it will double the tax base of Dallas, revitalize the city and stop it's slow decline. But other than that it's probably just an evil plot.  .  .  . . .  Did you have a specific question? Wick Allison had a few auditors look at the problem and they came up with some large numbers. The plan to move I-30 south a few miles would create $30B in investment over the next few decades. It's no different than trying to reason a welfare queen off the government teat. People who have always had their driving lifestyle subsidized by other taxpayers refuse to see it that way. It's become a right, dammit. http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=58747 30 billion in investment and 50 billion in costs. That is true welfare. If the project was feasible investors would pony up. Instead they want Uncle Suger to pay for it. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 6:47:10 PM EDT
[#4]
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Boston big dig was 25 billion about 100 billion today It's only money |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 7:01:27 PM EDT
[#5]
I see the dream now.
We will force people to live in the cities in which they work. that will ensure you have, well, something. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 1:35:21 AM EDT
[#6]
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I see the dream now. We will force people to live in the cities in which they work. that will ensure you have, well, something. I don't see that at all. I do see a sort of hub and spoke mass transit system, though - and a helluva lot more urban - and suburban - gentrification. But, the beauty of the marketplace is what any of us see is irrelevant. Aggregated consumer decisions, assuming non- distorted pricing, will lead to optimum efficiencies. Instead, it's all politics now. The goal of policy makers should be to remove politics from such things as much as possible. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 2:02:26 AM EDT
[#7]
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Alternative route? What is that Nashville? surface streets like the Pike and Middle Brook are useless at 5pm. Having two major arteries I-75 and I-40 meet in the center of town was a great idea, not. and I-640 bypasses nothing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I40 in Knoxville is a PITA. The side roads suck and there is only one major alternative route through the city. Alternative route? What is that Nashville? surface streets like the Pike and Middle Brook are useless at 5pm. Having two major arteries I-75 and I-40 meet in the center of town was a great idea, not. and I-640 bypasses nothing. This. I drive OTR trucking and Knoxville is one of the worst to get through. The bypass heading East is just a few miles from Downtown, and the suburban areas before it are a traffic nightmare. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 2:34:22 AM EDT
[#8]
Lots of cities as we know them, good and bad exist because of those freeways.
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Posted: 8/2/2015 9:39:12 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tolls.... I pay tolls on every fucking road I travel on. No one is paying for me. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: None of your whining changes the fact that taxpayers subsidize your commute, allowing you to live further away from that "richness and vibrancy" you speak of (which contradicts your earlier claim, btw. You can afford to live closer, but not with the type of neighbors you want to have). You don't need to apologize for any of the shit he thinks he's so clever in bringing up. We all know that the government takes our money through taxes then holds it ransom from the states in the form of highway funding to coerce the states into doing it's will on social issues. The people commuting to work each day on those highways ARE THE TAXPAYER middle class whose very money is used to build the fucking highway. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 9:47:37 AM EDT
[#10]
Skillshot, you live in Texas where 50% of highway funding (TXDOT) is basically debt.
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Posted: 8/2/2015 10:01:14 AM EDT
[#11]
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I don't see that at all. I do see a sort of hub and spoke mass transit system, though - and a helluva lot more urban - and suburban - gentrification. But, the beauty of the marketplace is what any of us see is irrelevant. Aggregated consumer decisions, assuming non- distorted pricing, will lead to optimum efficiencies. Instead, it's all politics now. The goal of policy makers should be to remove politics from such things as much as possible. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I see the dream now. We will force people to live in the cities in which they work. that will ensure you have, well, something. I don't see that at all. I do see a sort of hub and spoke mass transit system, though - and a helluva lot more urban - and suburban - gentrification. But, the beauty of the marketplace is what any of us see is irrelevant. Aggregated consumer decisions, assuming non- distorted pricing, will lead to optimum efficiencies. Instead, it's all politics now. The goal of policy makers should be to remove politics from such things as much as possible. removing politics to replace it with top men? |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 10:34:46 AM EDT
[#12]
I have worked in transportation consulting for almost 30 years
This thread is 100% pure derp no offense there is always a fantasy among the public and certain public officials to get rid of the interstates and go back to glorious sun-dappled paradise of 1935 well, you cannot service 100,000 or 200,000 daily commuters into your city with a fantasy you need a beltway and you need good commuter rail service if you don't service the 200,000 commuters, the city dies American public is mobile, you fuck everything up and they'll move away high crime, high taxes, bad roads, and they go bye bye downsizing transportation to help commuters is like getting rid of hospitals so people won't get sick |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 10:36:26 AM EDT
[#13]
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Skillshot, you live in Texas where 50% of highway funding (TXDOT) is basically debt. So roads are funded with bonds, where future tax revenue is used as collateral i.e. gas taxes. I'm not sure I see a problem with that. How do you propose funding roads? Even if you convert highways to surface streets the locals will just use bonds to fund the roads. Regardless someone will issue debt. On a cost per mile basis bond funded roads vs toll roads are less expensive per mile. I've seen estimates of anywhere from .02 vs.10 to .17 vs .23. It would be cheaper and more cost effective to raise the gas tax but Austin can't be trusted to not raid the money. 
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Posted: 8/2/2015 10:45:02 AM EDT
[#14]
How are you planning to use future gas taxes to pay for future maintenance when current gas taxes aren't enough to pay for current maintenance?
Is there some future when we will have enough roads and we will be able to stop building them? Because you aren't talking about a cash flow issue, you are talking about an insolvency issue. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 10:46:36 AM EDT
[#15]
drones will serve as roads.
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Posted: 8/2/2015 10:49:43 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm aware I'll catch flak for this, but I like San Antonio's system. Two ring roads, with 4 or 5 highways crossing into downtown from various directions. Easy to navigate at least. Surface-streets only would suck. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: From Politico. I'm strongly in favor of removing a number of highways, particularly I345 in Dallas. The benefits to the city can hardly be overstated. Dwight D. Eisenhower didn’t like the way America’s interstate highway system turned out. The interstates, as he saw it, were supposed to create connections between different cities, not gouge paths through the middle of them. But by the time his presidency came to an end in 1960, huge highways and overpasses had obliterated thickly settled urban areas, uprooting families and dividing neighborhoods, all paid for with federal money. Eisenhower was aghast. Today, with the urban highways of the Eisenhower era nearing the end of their useful lives, cities and state transportation leaders face a choice: Rebuild their highway segments at great expense, or tear them down and replace them with surface streets. I'm aware I'll catch flak for this, but I like San Antonio's system. Two ring roads, with 4 or 5 highways crossing into downtown from various directions. Easy to navigate at least. Surface-streets only would suck. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 10:56:28 AM EDT
[#17]
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I'm aware I'll catch flak for this, but I like San Antonio's system. Two ring roads, with 4 or 5 highways crossing into downtown from various directions. Easy to navigate at least. Surface-streets only would suck. Grew up there in the 70's thru mid-80's. 1604 was the boonies. Now it's still suburbia from what I understand from friends who still live there. Haven't been back since '93. It was efficient to move around, though. I rode the Via 550/551 route a lot as a teen. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 11:07:52 AM EDT
[#18]
America is in a transportation crisis
the states are using tax revenue to service debt so there is nothing for roads the whole infrastructure is decrepit and falling apart the roads you drive on were opened decades ago and were at level of service D or F the day they opened now you have twice the population using the roads politicians don't like to spend money on infrastructure it's all low bid the final product serves the public directly for decades and decades the money spent goes right back into the local economy infrastructure is in horrendous condition and is grossly undersized it's the very best way to spend tax money so naturally, no politician wants anything to do with it so you sit in traffic jams on your horrible roads and watch bridges rot away because they needed a paint job 10 years ago |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 11:09:55 AM EDT
[#19]
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It moves a lot of traffic. But it is just a way through town. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I345 is not a real highway. It's only a mile and a half long. It's just a connector road. It moves a lot of traffic. But it is just a way through town. It is indispensable. There is no other way to connect US75 and I45 than I345. The traffic flow on it is huge. You can't just dump them into stop and go traffic for two miles. It would be disasterous. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 11:11:46 AM EDT
[#20]
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Removing I345 is a horrifyingly bad idea. Only hipsters think it would work. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 11:47:43 AM EDT
[#21]
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Only hipsters think it would work. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Removing I345 is a horrifyingly bad idea. Only hipsters think it would work. For a few years after my cousin graduated from Auburn with a degree in Architecture, he whole heartedly believed this type of thing too, and like the OP, would have measured city success in terms of how much tax money per/acre a city could rape, I'm sorry I mean reap, from the endevour. So he worked a few years in the real world, he got jaded and moved to the burbs. 
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Posted: 8/2/2015 12:05:48 PM EDT
[#22]
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Only hipsters think it would work. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Removing I345 is a horrifyingly bad idea. Only hipsters think it would work. Reality cures hipsters, most of the time. I know very few bill-paying adults who think this way. Those who do are broke and clueless as to why. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 12:18:21 PM EDT
[#23]
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How are you planning to use future gas taxes to pay for future maintenance when current gas taxes aren't enough to pay for current maintenance? Is there some future when we will have enough roads and we will be able to stop building them? Because you aren't talking about a cash flow issue, you are talking about an insolvency issue. You're ignoring the fact that the gas tax hasn't been raised in 20+ years at both the state and federal level. It should raised as needed and be indexed to inflation with the caveat that all money goes to roads. I despise taxes as much as anyone but a few things are needed such as transportation public safety national defense etc. Those are tax worthy items. All that said 345 probably could be removed if and only if 30, 35, 45, the tollway and 75 were adequately redesigned to handle the traffic flows to route the traffic around downtown. As of right now it's a cluster, taking out 345 would just exacerbate the problem. And I'm skeptical it would be done right because past history has shown the designers half ass it and under design the roads for current loading and fail to compensate for future growth. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 12:21:07 PM EDT
[#24]
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As long as they keep the bypasses. Fuck driving through a city on surface streets if you aren't going somewhere in the city. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 12:27:49 PM EDT
[#25]
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I asked the same about the report he's relying on. You won't get an answer. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So now we're back to the whole, just move Interstate 30 south schtick from the 80's and 90's? And how would we do that? And what would that cost this time? This time are we talking I-30 through Dallas and Tarrant counties, or are going to include Rockwall and Hunt? What about Interstate 20, which just happens to be a "few miles south" Interstate 30? There is an existing TXDOT right of way that runs south of Dallas. There would be no land purchase and no eminent domain. Just build a road, connect it on both ends, and move in. Where? The only existing RoW I know of south of Dallas is I-20. Or are you talking about putting I-30 south of Dallas County? If so, what good would that do? Again, they had auditors run the numbers and they came up with an additional $30B in construction over the next few decades. Who? I asked the same about the report he's relying on. You won't get an answer. I'm not trying to start a pissing match here, but I have had the same conversation with the anti-345'ers as I am having with CombatJack. Anti-345'ers like to use "They" and "Them" because its easier. My discussions with them have always ended with them calling me a "greedy pig", a "capitalist nazi", a "fucking asshole", or any combination of compound expletives. Yet they are the ones that support the Trinity Tollway, a fucking highway in between the levies of the Trinity River, because they believe that's the best best way to delete I-345 (think about that, a highway between mounds of sand and rock used to PREVENT floods). Make people pay a toll so they can have relative silence behind their $2K+/month trendy lofts in Deep Ellum. Then you have the anti-345'ers that are also against the Trinity Tollway, but dont know/care where those 100,000+ cars and trucks will go, so long as its Not In My Back Yard (NIMBY). |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 12:33:47 PM EDT
[#26]
One thing that seems to be missing when comparing Dallas to Seattle and Barcelona is that they DONT have a massive engineering mistake right in the center of the city. I'm talking about "The Canyon". The Canyon is I-30 between I-345 and I-35E. It cannot be widened, or fixed. Planned in the 50's, built in the 80's. US75 is very similar, the closer you get to downtown.
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Posted: 8/2/2015 12:45:58 PM EDT
[#27]
I know Patrick Kennedy is against the Trinity Tollway.
I don't personally know anyone else in the group. I'll address your arguments when I get home. Driving from Dallas to Houston today. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 2:08:11 PM EDT
[#28]
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One thing that seems to be missing when comparing Dallas to Seattle and Barcelona is that they DONT have a massive engineering mistake right in the center of the city. I'm talking about "The Canyon". The Canyon is I-30 between I-345 and I-35E. It cannot be widened, or fixed. Planned in the 50's, built in the 80's. US75 is very similar, the closer you get to downtown. Would this solve that issue? I30 is connecting to I45 in the lower right hand corner of the right side. There is an existing TXDOT right of way in there, so it would be minimally disruptive. This is the proposal that would allow Dallas to rejuvenate it's tax base by $30B. 
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Posted: 8/2/2015 2:16:35 PM EDT
[#29]
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One thing that seems to be missing when comparing Dallas to Seattle and Barcelona is that they DONT have a massive engineering mistake right in the center of the city. I'm talking about "The Canyon". The Canyon is I-30 between I-345 and I-35E. It cannot be widened, or fixed. Planned in the 50's, built in the 80's. US75 is very similar, the closer you get to downtown. LOL, never driven I-5 through Seattle, I see. 
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Posted: 8/2/2015 2:21:27 PM EDT
[#30]
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Would this solve that issue? I30 is connecting to I45 in the lower right hand corner of the right side. There is an existing TXDOT right of way in there, so it would be minimally disruptive. This is the proposal that would allow Dallas to rejuvenate it's tax base by $30B. http://s8.postimg.org/g666204k5/image.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
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One thing that seems to be missing when comparing Dallas to Seattle and Barcelona is that they DONT have a massive engineering mistake right in the center of the city. I'm talking about "The Canyon". The Canyon is I-30 between I-345 and I-35E. It cannot be widened, or fixed. Planned in the 50's, built in the 80's. US75 is very similar, the closer you get to downtown. Would this solve that issue? I30 is connecting to I45 in the lower right hand corner of the right side. There is an existing TXDOT right of way in there, so it would be minimally disruptive. This is the proposal that would allow Dallas to rejuvenate it's tax base by $30B. http://s8.postimg.org/g666204k5/image.jpg You speak as a self-proclaimed authority on economics, civil engineering, and sociology, but you use the wrong form of "its". |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 2:21:36 PM EDT
[#31]
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LOL, never driven I-5 through Seattle, I see. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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One thing that seems to be missing when comparing Dallas to Seattle and Barcelona is that they DONT have a massive engineering mistake right in the center of the city. I'm talking about "The Canyon". The Canyon is I-30 between I-345 and I-35E. It cannot be widened, or fixed. Planned in the 50's, built in the 80's. US75 is very similar, the closer you get to downtown. LOL, never driven I-5 through Seattle, I see. I thought the same thing. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 2:23:55 PM EDT
[#32]
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You speak as a self-proclaimed authority on economics, civil engineering, and sociology, but you use the wrong form of "its". I'm typing on a phone. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 3:54:53 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have worked in transportation consulting for almost 30 years This thread is 100% pure derp no offense there is always a fantasy among the public and certain public officials to get rid of the interstates and go back to glorious sun-dappled paradise of 1935 well, you cannot service 100,000 or 200,000 daily commuters into your city with a fantasy you need a beltway and you need good commuter rail service if you don't service the 200,000 commuters, the city dies American public is mobile, you fuck everything up and they'll move away high crime, high taxes, bad roads, and they go bye bye downsizing transportation to help commuters is like getting rid of hospitals so people won't get sick |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 3:58:00 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is indispensable. There is no other way to connect US75 and I45 than I345. The traffic flow on it is huge. You can't just dump them into stop and go traffic for two miles. It would be disasterous. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I345 is not a real highway. It's only a mile and a half long. It's just a connector road. It moves a lot of traffic. But it is just a way through town. It is indispensable. There is no other way to connect US75 and I45 than I345. The traffic flow on it is huge. You can't just dump them into stop and go traffic for two miles. It would be disasterous. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 3:59:39 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're ignoring the fact that the gas tax hasn't been raised in 20+ years at both the state and federal level. It should raised as needed and be indexed to inflation with the caveat that all money goes to roads. I despise taxes as much as anyone but a few things are needed such as transportation public safety national defense etc. Those are tax worthy items. All that said 345 probably could be removed if and only if 30, 35, 45, the tollway and 75 were adequately redesigned to handle the traffic flows to route the traffic around downtown. As of right now it's a cluster, taking out 345 would just exacerbate the problem. And I'm skeptical it would be done right because past history has shown the designers half ass it and under design the roads for current loading and fail to compensate for future growth. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: How are you planning to use future gas taxes to pay for future maintenance when current gas taxes aren't enough to pay for current maintenance? Is there some future when we will have enough roads and we will be able to stop building them? Because you aren't talking about a cash flow issue, you are talking about an insolvency issue. You're ignoring the fact that the gas tax hasn't been raised in 20+ years at both the state and federal level. It should raised as needed and be indexed to inflation with the caveat that all money goes to roads. I despise taxes as much as anyone but a few things are needed such as transportation public safety national defense etc. Those are tax worthy items. All that said 345 probably could be removed if and only if 30, 35, 45, the tollway and 75 were adequately redesigned to handle the traffic flows to route the traffic around downtown. As of right now it's a cluster, taking out 345 would just exacerbate the problem. And I'm skeptical it would be done right because past history has shown the designers half ass it and under design the roads for current loading and fail to compensate for future growth. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 5:44:12 PM EDT
[#36]
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Would this solve that issue? I30 is connecting to I45 in the lower right hand corner of the right side. There is an existing TXDOT right of way in there, so it would be minimally disruptive. This is the proposal that would allow Dallas to rejuvenate it's tax base by $30B. http://s8.postimg.org/g666204k5/image.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
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One thing that seems to be missing when comparing Dallas to Seattle and Barcelona is that they DONT have a massive engineering mistake right in the center of the city. I'm talking about "The Canyon". The Canyon is I-30 between I-345 and I-35E. It cannot be widened, or fixed. Planned in the 50's, built in the 80's. US75 is very similar, the closer you get to downtown. Would this solve that issue? I30 is connecting to I45 in the lower right hand corner of the right side. There is an existing TXDOT right of way in there, so it would be minimally disruptive. This is the proposal that would allow Dallas to rejuvenate it's tax base by $30B. http://s8.postimg.org/g666204k5/image.jpg 1. The original Mixmaster for Dallas still stands, and is a monument to people who do not understand the city they are in, its potential for growth. They are slowly replacing that with an even bigger mixmaster that is already out of date. You want them to add another Interstate into that thing? 2. The RoW you are claiming TXDOT "owns" sits right along the Union Pacific Dallas Subdivision. Not only that, but it is the planned RoW for the Texas Central High Speed Rail. Its a power line RoW that follows the Trinity River south. 3. The idea of people abandoning I-30 between Dallas and points to the east along the current I-30 RoW wont happen considering I-30 is getting a large makeover there now. I suppose you could call it I-30 Business, but people will still use it to go from Rockwall, Rowlett, and affluent cities into Dallas 4. It would create a second mix master down there because it would be the confluence of the I-45, I-30, TX 310,and US 175. That and there are hundreds of homes down there, while its not a great neighborhood, and is rife with poverty, where are those folks going to go? That doesnt sound "minimally disruptive" to me. 5. That plan is dependant on Woodall Rogers (Spur 366) handling all that traffic that wants to go I-45 to US75. Woodall Rogers cant be widened, as its a depressed highway with a park on top of it. Have you seen Woodall Rogers during rush hour now? Do you Woodall Rogers, brah? 
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Posted: 8/2/2015 6:25:14 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Skillshot, you live in Texas where 50% of highway funding (TXDOT) is basically debt. The flight away from failing schools causes transportation issues that TXDOT must fund with bonds. Vicious cycle. But fixing failing schools is a social issue as failing students come from failed families. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 9:43:26 PM EDT
[#38]
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1. The original Mixmaster for Dallas still stands, and is a monument to people who do not understand the city they are in, its potential for growth. They are slowly replacing that with an even bigger mixmaster that is already out of date. You want them to add another Interstate into that thing? Quote HistoryQuoted:
1. The original Mixmaster for Dallas still stands, and is a monument to people who do not understand the city they are in, its potential for growth. They are slowly replacing that with an even bigger mixmaster that is already out of date. You want them to add another Interstate into that thing? What would you rather do? Add a third mixmaster, accept that I345 remains, accept that I30 narrows to two lanes and add more cars until something changes? Quoted:
2. The RoW you are claiming TXDOT "owns" sits right along the Union Pacific Dallas Subdivision. Not only that, but it is the planned RoW for the Texas Central High Speed Rail. Its a power line RoW that follows the Trinity River south. You are talking about where I45 would go, or where I30 would go? Quoted:
3. The idea of people abandoning I-30 between Dallas and points to the east along the current I-30 RoW wont happen considering I-30 is getting a large makeover there now. I suppose you could call it I-30 Business, but people will still use it to go from Rockwall, Rowlett, and affluent cities into Dallas I30 would divert south a few miles outside of Dallas. They would either take I30 to I45 and then go north, or hit surface streets. There are several arterials along the way that could be able to take people north. Quoted:
4. It would create a second mix master down there because it would be the confluence of the I-45, I-30, TX 310,and US 175. That and there are hundreds of homes down there, while its not a great neighborhood, and is rife with poverty, where are those folks going to go? That doesnt sound "minimally disruptive" to me. I don't think anyone has ever shown this much care for the poor when putting a freeway into Dallas. Certainly not in the 1960s. 310 and 175 are to the south and could be tied into I45 much further south than the I45/I30 connection. You know, like it shows on the map that I posted. Quoted:
5. That plan is dependant on Woodall Rogers (Spur 366) handling all that traffic that wants to go I-45 to US75. Woodall Rogers cant be widened, as its a depressed highway with a park on top of it. Have you seen Woodall Rogers during rush hour now? Do you Woodall Rogers, brah? I've certainly seen it. Quite the traffic jam. So? Plenty of other ways to solve that problem. Here in Houston people use transit buses to go from the suburbs to downtown. Does Dallas have something like that? |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 9:43:39 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because 25% of state MV fuel tax revenue is funneled into education. Why? Because those that can move OUT of failing school districts to ones with better performance, causing education tax revenue to fall in failing school districts. TXDOT estimates that replacing the existing system would cost $500-750B. That is roughly 1/3-1/2 of GDP. If you accept complete replacement every 40 years that means spending $12.5-18.5B/yr to replace the system. The biennial budget is about $10B, only 40% of which goes to maintenance. They've been asking for another $4B to keep up with maintenance and try to reduce congestion. They got some of that through Proposition 1. Their strategic plan assumes that 10% of their budget will go to debt service. The gas tax is $0.20/gal. In 2010 it raised about $2.3B, of which 25% was diverted to education. There are a number of other sources of revenue, totaling about $7B in 2010. If you were to repurpose all of the gas tax and assume that the $14B/yr figure is necessary you would be able to make up the necessary increase in revenue with a gas tax right at about... 60 cents? Is my math right? Are you willing to pay 60 cents a gallon? |
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Posted: 8/3/2015 1:05:11 AM EDT
[#40]
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What would you rather do? Add a third mixmaster, accept that I345 remains, accept that I30 narrows to two lanes and add more cars until something changes? Retain I-345, knock the north and south walls of the The Canyon out to widen I-30 which is actually 3 lanes until you get to the old Mixmaster (the new Mixmaster is supposed to be 3 lanes I-30, 2 lanes I-35E south, 2 lanes I-35E north). I add an east-west service road from Lamar to Grand. I'd even go so far as to listen to what some anti-345'ers have brought up (before being shouted down by the more vocal anti-345'ers) and consider I-345 being tunneled. You also dont seem to understand what the Mixmaster is in Dallas. Its where I-35E makes an ill-advised and often mocked S-turn in Downtown. At the northern end of said S turn is where I-30 comes inbound. At one point I-30, and east-west thoroughfare is actually running parallel with I-35E, a supposed north-south route. A half mile north another route, Spur 366 Woodall Rogers dumps cars into the Mixmaster. The I345/I-30 is merely an interchange, not a Mixmaster. You are talking about where I45 would go, or where I30 would go? Whatever highway that is in the right side, or "After", map. I assume its supposed to be I-30, I-45, US175, and TX310 all wrapped together. Anyways, that RoW, is just west of the UP Dallas Sub, and is the current route being planned for the Texas Central HSR between Dallas-Houston. That street you can barely see above where it say "Trinity River" in the "After" map is Corinth St. I30 would divert south a few miles outside of Dallas. They would either take I30 to I45 and then go north, or hit surface streets. There are several arterials along the way that could be able to take people north. "Arterials" like Buckner Blvd, Jim Miller, Heggins, or Scyene etc.? See this is how I know you're grasping. Have you ever been down those streets? Do you know what is there? That is the always serene and peaceful Pleasant Grove,Roosevelt Heights, Fair Park. Lovely, lovely areas that I'm sure dazzling urbanites will enjoy taking, what with the dozens of traffic lights, the disadvantaged youths that would love nothing more to relive them of their cars, etc. And in the end, those streets will still put them east of Downtown by a few miles. However since we are talking about arterials, I asked you what problem seems to be plaguing Dallas right now the most, and you didnt answer, or I didnt see your answer. I'll assume you didnt and tell you its the streets. Our streets are decrepit. Potholes 12 inches deep with exposed rebar is not Abbie Someone, its the normal. So putting more traffic on them is not going to make the situation better, as most anti-345'ers seem to think. You'd think intelligent people would want the city surface streets, or "arterials", fixed before serious talk of a freeway deletion is discussed. How far east of Dallas do you want to divert I-30, btw? I don't think anyone has ever shown this much care for the poor when putting a freeway into Dallas. Certainly not in the 1960s. 310 and 175 are to the south and could be tied into I45 much further south than the I45/I30 connection. You know, like it shows on the map that I posted. Then you dont know Dallas like you think you do. Seeing as that area used to NOT be poor, and was quite a nice neighborhood on up to the 1980's when the Jamaican and Cubans tried to take over Dallas with crack cocaine as their tool of choice. As for those poor people, my thoughts are: poor or rich, it doesnt matter, their homes shouldnt be snatched away because some NIMBY doesnt like the noise of a highway in his backyard he knew was there when he and his ilk moved in. You keep blathering on about your precious map, but I have looked at it on two different computers (Windows 8 and Windows 10, 3 different browsers, and on a Galaxy S5, and none of them show where US175 and TX310 tie into the revamped I-30 and I-345. The left side is always larger than the right I've certainly seen it. Quite the traffic jam. So? Plenty of other ways to solve that problem. Here in Houston people use transit buses to go from the suburbs to downtown. Does Dallas have something like that? You trollin'? Tell me/we/us the "plenty of ways to solve" the overcrowding of an already overcrowded spur that your "After" map proposes people take to go from SE of the metroplex to the NNE. That's great about Houston. And yet your traffic is somehow still worse than ours (admittedly I got my only taste of it between Richmond, Rosenberg, and Houston, but I assure you that was enough). Here in Dallas we have the largest light rail network in the US (86 miles as of 2014), and despite the complaints about DART, a very solid busing system. Many thousands of people use DART LRV and buses to take them from the suburbs, but it still isnt enough. The express busses, the LRVs, and the TRE (heavy rail between Dallas and Ft Worth) are packed to the gills, but then so are the freeways (there is also Denton's A-train which connects with DART LRV). The price you pay for 7 million people in DFW, of which 4.5 live on the Dallas side. So yeah, I'd say we've got that whole mass transit shit down pat. Does Houston have anything like that? |
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Posted: 8/3/2015 1:25:42 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Retain I-345, knock the north and south walls of the The Canyon out to widen I-30 which is actually 3 lanes until you get to the old Mixmaster (the new Mixmaster is supposed to be 3 lanes I-30, 2 lanes I-35E south, 2 lanes I-35E north). I add an east-west service road from Lamar to Grand. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Retain I-345, knock the north and south walls of the The Canyon out to widen I-30 which is actually 3 lanes until you get to the old Mixmaster (the new Mixmaster is supposed to be 3 lanes I-30, 2 lanes I-35E south, 2 lanes I-35E north). I add an east-west service road from Lamar to Grand. And when that doesn't solve the congestion issue will you do it again? There is at least one building in the way, you've have to tear it down. Quoted:
I'd even go so far as to listen to what some anti-345'ers have brought up (before being shouted down by the more vocal anti-345'ers) and consider I-345 being tunneled. Cut and cover is the second most expensive way to build a road, short of tunneling. Quoted:
You also dont seem to understand what the Mixmaster is in Dallas. Its where I-35E makes an ill-advised and often mocked S-turn in Downtown. At the northern end of said S turn is where I-30 comes inbound. At one point I-30, and east-west thoroughfare is actually running parallel with I-35E, a supposed north-south route. A half mile north another route, Spur 366 Woodall Rogers dumps cars into the Mixmaster. The I345/I-30 is merely an interchange, not a Mixmaster. I get what it is. I drove through it today. It's a real joy... Quoted:
Whatever highway that is in the right side, or "After", map. I assume its supposed to be I-30, I-45, US175, and TX310 all wrapped together. Anyways, that RoW, is just west of the UP Dallas Sub, and is the current route being planned for the Texas Central HSR between Dallas-Houston. That street you can barely see above where it say "Trinity River" in the "After" map is Corinth St. I looked it up and saw that. I'm not sure how much stuff can be crammed in there, and I like the rail idea. A lot. (I drive that route once a month or more). |
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Posted: 8/3/2015 1:25:52 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
However since we are talking about arterials, I asked you what problem seems to be plaguing Dallas right now the most, and you didnt answer, or I didnt see your answer. I'll assume you didnt and tell you its the streets. Our streets are decrepit. Potholes 12 inches deep with exposed rebar is not Abbie Someone, its the normal. So putting more traffic on them is not going to make the situation better, as most anti-345'ers seem to think. You'd think intelligent people would want the city surface streets, or "arterials", fixed before serious talk of a freeway deletion is discussed. And how do you pay for streets? With property taxes. What doesn't generate revenue? Streets, parking lots, highways, etc. Quoted:
How far east of Dallas do you want to divert I-30, btw? It doesn't need to be that far. That area can all be reclaimed, anyway. That's kind of the point. Quoted:
That's great about Houston. And yet your traffic is somehow still worse than ours (admittedly I got my only taste of it between Richmond, Rosenberg, and Houston, but I assure you that was enough). Here in Dallas we have the largest light rail network in the US (86 miles as of 2014), and despite the complaints about DART, a very solid busing system. Many thousands of people use DART LRV and buses to take them from the suburbs, but it still isnt enough. The express busses, the LRVs, and the TRE (heavy rail between Dallas and Ft Worth) are packed to the gills, but then so are the freeways (there is also Denton's A-train which connects with DART LRV). The price you pay for 7 million people in DFW, of which 4.5 live on the Dallas side. So yeah, I'd say we've got that whole mass transit shit down pat. Does Houston have anything like that? Houston has an expanding light rail line and just redesigned the bus routes to increase frequency and serve another million residents. So it is getting better. The land use here, however, is even worse than in DFW, which makes transit a bitch. |
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Posted: 8/3/2015 1:30:47 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And how do you pay for streets? With property taxes. What doesn't generate revenue? Streets, parking lots, highways, etc. Cool story. So we'll just tear down an interstate that sees 100,000+ vehicles daily and put them on already fucked up streets. It doesn't need to be that far. That area can all be reclaimed, anyway. That's kind of the point. Answer the question. Houston has an expanding light rail line and just redesigned the bus routes to increase frequency and serve another million residents. So it is getting better. The land use here, however, is even worse than in DFW, which makes transit a bitch. In other words, you and Houston aint got shit on Dallas' mass transit, but you're still going to tell me and Dallas how we need to have their freeways setup because you drive up here once in while. When Houston achieves half of Dallas' light rail mileage and haulage, then talk to me about how great MetroRAIL is, m'kay. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
However since we are talking about arterials, I asked you what problem seems to be plaguing Dallas right now the most, and you didnt answer, or I didnt see your answer. I'll assume you didnt and tell you its the streets. Our streets are decrepit. Potholes 12 inches deep with exposed rebar is not Abbie Someone, its the normal. So putting more traffic on them is not going to make the situation better, as most anti-345'ers seem to think. You'd think intelligent people would want the city surface streets, or "arterials", fixed before serious talk of a freeway deletion is discussed. And how do you pay for streets? With property taxes. What doesn't generate revenue? Streets, parking lots, highways, etc. Cool story. So we'll just tear down an interstate that sees 100,000+ vehicles daily and put them on already fucked up streets. Quoted:
How far east of Dallas do you want to divert I-30, btw? It doesn't need to be that far. That area can all be reclaimed, anyway. That's kind of the point. Answer the question. Quoted:
That's great about Houston. And yet your traffic is somehow still worse than ours (admittedly I got my only taste of it between Richmond, Rosenberg, and Houston, but I assure you that was enough). Here in Dallas we have the largest light rail network in the US (86 miles as of 2014), and despite the complaints about DART, a very solid busing system. Many thousands of people use DART LRV and buses to take them from the suburbs, but it still isnt enough. The express busses, the LRVs, and the TRE (heavy rail between Dallas and Ft Worth) are packed to the gills, but then so are the freeways (there is also Denton's A-train which connects with DART LRV). The price you pay for 7 million people in DFW, of which 4.5 live on the Dallas side. So yeah, I'd say we've got that whole mass transit shit down pat. Does Houston have anything like that? Houston has an expanding light rail line and just redesigned the bus routes to increase frequency and serve another million residents. So it is getting better. The land use here, however, is even worse than in DFW, which makes transit a bitch. In other words, you and Houston aint got shit on Dallas' mass transit, but you're still going to tell me and Dallas how we need to have their freeways setup because you drive up here once in while. When Houston achieves half of Dallas' light rail mileage and haulage, then talk to me about how great MetroRAIL is, m'kay. |
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Posted: 8/3/2015 1:43:14 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cool story. So we'll just tear down an interstate that sees 100,000+ vehicles daily and put them on already fucked up streets. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cool story. So we'll just tear down an interstate that sees 100,000+ vehicles daily and put them on already fucked up streets. As I said, much of it will disappear. Seattle had the same issue. 150,000 cars a day on the Alaskan Way Viaduct. And yet when they close the viaduct for repairs they can't find 50,000 cars. Quoted:
How far east of Dallas do you want to divert I-30, btw? I don't have a strong opinion on the matter. Patrick Kennedy and Wick Allison are the ones that you should ask. Quoted:[/span]
In other words, you and Houston aint got shit on Dallas' mass transit, but you're still going to tell me and Dallas how we need to have their freeways setup because you drive up here once in while. When Houston achieves half of Dallas' light rail mileage and haulage, then talk to me about how great MetroRAIL is, m'kay. What's really funny is how pissed Houstonians would be if were started talking about there city. I live here by accident and I'm moving away just after the one year mark. Which is a relief. Because if they let me choose we'd be punching a street grid through neighborhoods and canceling pretty much all of their highway projects. |
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Posted: 8/3/2015 11:50:07 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As I said, much of it will disappear. Seattle had the same issue. 150,000 cars a day on the Alaskan Way Viaduct. And yet when they close the viaduct for repairs they can't find 50,000 cars. And you can prove this how? "But, but, but Seattle", isnt proof, and isnt a valid comparison to metropolitan Dallas. Where will 66%+ of those cars and trucks disappear to? I don't have a strong opinion on the matter. Patrick Kennedy and Wick Allison are the ones that you should ask. Bullshit. I am asking you. You make the claims, you support them with facts. I've heard Kennedy and Allison, they say the same things you do. "They have done the research...". "They have crunched the numbers....". But anti-345'ers dont say who "They" are. Same as you have done. What's really funny is how pissed Houstonians would be if were started talking about there city. I live here by accident and I'm moving away just after the one year mark. Which is a relief. Because if they let me choose we'd be punching a street grid through neighborhoods and canceling pretty much all of their highway projects. So in other words, ya got nuthin'. The funny part about all of this was in 2010 there was a proposal to tunnel I-30. The vehicles that wished to by-pass Downtown Dallas would go into the tunnel, and all the current lanes would be to connect to I-35E in both directions. It made sense then, and it makes sense now. It would have required a complete reworking of I-345 as well, knocking it down, and tunneling it. There were a few cries about how it wouldnt work, though I believe only one held water (and I dont mean that as a pun), there are "issues" with the soils, limestone, and water all over Dallas. However you know who cried about it? The "urban planners" that didnt want the noise and pollution in their areas of Dallas. The same urban planners that now, almost 5 years later want I-345 gone, because it "blocks connecting Deep Ellum and East Dallas to Downtown". Seeing as I live in East Dallas, I have no problem "connecting" to Downtown. But their cries sound good. |
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Posted: 8/3/2015 2:26:58 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And you can prove this how? "But, but, but Seattle", isnt proof, and isnt a valid comparison to metropolitan Dallas. Where will 66%+ of those cars and trucks disappear to? Quote HistoryQuoted:
And you can prove this how? "But, but, but Seattle", isnt proof, and isnt a valid comparison to metropolitan Dallas. Where will 66%+ of those cars and trucks disappear to? When I345 is closed for repairs what happens to traffic in other areas? Has anyone attempted to take measurements? Quoted:
Bullshit. I am asking you. You make the claims, you support them with facts. I've heard Kennedy and Allison, they say the same things you do. "They have done the research...". "They have crunched the numbers....". But anti-345'ers dont say who "They" are. Same as you have done. Allison had a lot more data than I do, which makes sense since he is paying for the studies. Perhaps we should email him and ask. Want to type up a list of questions and I'll go ahead and ask? |
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Posted: 8/3/2015 2:46:48 PM EDT
[#47]
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Much of it will evaporate. Trips not take, telecommuting, transit. Most will bypass on a freeway or move to surface streets, where there is greater capacity. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So all of the traffic normally carried on that section of freeway would have to be carried on the other freeways? Much of it will evaporate. Trips not take, telecommuting, transit. Most will bypass on a freeway or move to surface streets, where there is greater capacity. How does telecommuting work if you work at McD's? Frankly, your belief is not based on reality. |
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Posted: 8/3/2015 2:55:13 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, it will double the tax base of Dallas, revitalize the city and stop it's slow decline. But other than that it's probably just an evil plot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
and fuck that. that chunk of road is of vital importance. this is blatantly some developer who wants a ton of "prime" land. Well, it will double the tax base of Dallas, revitalize the city and stop it's slow decline. But other than that it's probably just an evil plot. You are kidding, right? Go to downtown on a Saturday a.m. and see what you are up against. The idea that creating a massive chokepoint between I45 and US75 is good for the city is monumental stupidity. |
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Posted: 8/3/2015 2:56:39 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How does telecommuting work if you work at McD's? Frankly, your belief is not based on reality. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So all of the traffic normally carried on that section of freeway would have to be carried on the other freeways? Much of it will evaporate. Trips not take, telecommuting, transit. Most will bypass on a freeway or move to surface streets, where there is greater capacity. How does telecommuting work if you work at McD's? Frankly, your belief is not based on reality. It isn't poor people that are clogging up your freeways. 
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Posted: 8/3/2015 2:59:46 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And yet Paris somehow accounts for 30% of France's GDP... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yeah, driving in Paris is a joy. And yet Paris somehow accounts for 30% of France's GDP... Paris is a region and no longer a city. It has expanded to absorb industrial regions. It is also the filthiest Euro city I have ever been to. |
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